Joe, perhaps others know about that: my knowledge about TOPS is zero.
You night want to discuss it with the folks at alt,sys.pdp10
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
From: Joe Ferraro <jferraro at gmail.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:14:16 -0400
To: <hecnet at update.uu.se>
ReplyTo: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
While we are on the topic, does anyone have any experience with TOPS-20 / DECNET? I've haven't had time to mess with it of late, but I was unsuccessful in a previous evening's attempt or two.
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
On 12 Jul 2011, at 21:48, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
> DECnet/AIX was a 3rd party effort IIRC
> I haven't searched the internet yet but who knows what is available.
> Perhaps the opensource decnet kit may be portable.
I know there's a DECNet kit for Linux out there somewhere. Not sure about anything else. Nothing crops up on a quick Google search that isn't dated early 90s.
> I wasn't aware that AIX was so hobbyist friendly. The hardware is vey unfamiliar for me though.
The hardware is generally pretty unique (save for it's similarity in patches to PPC Macs) - all IBM stuff generally is. The OS is proprietary but you can pick up media kits off eBay for not a lot. Also IBM documentation, certainly for RS/6000 / pSeries hardware and AIX, is readily available online without even needing a login.
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
While we are on the topic, does anyone have any experience with TOPS-20 / DECNET? I've haven't had time to mess with it of late, but I was unsuccessful in a previous evening's attempt or two.
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
On 12 Jul 2011, at 21:48, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
> DECnet/AIX was a 3rd party effort IIRC
> I haven't searched the internet yet but who knows what is available.
> Perhaps the opensource decnet kit may be portable.
I know there's a DECNet kit for Linux out there somewhere. Not sure about anything else. Nothing crops up on a quick Google search that isn't dated early 90s.
> I wasn't aware that AIX was so hobbyist friendly. The hardware is vey unfamiliar for me though.
The hardware is generally pretty unique (save for it's similarity in patches to PPC Macs) - all IBM stuff generally is. The OS is proprietary but you can pick up media kits off eBay for not a lot. Also IBM documentation, certainly for RS/6000 / pSeries hardware and AIX, is readily available online without even needing a login.
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
Off topic... I received a page, a few weeks prior, on a machine that was not pinging. Turns out, it was one of a few old NOVA class boxes we still have at my work, using FDDI for connectivity. Fortunately, a disconnect / reconnect brought the ring back online; I was scared (and a bit excited in a strange way) for a few moments that I was going to have to do some extensive troubleshooting... FDDI still lives.
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:27 PM, H Vlems <hvlems at zonnet.nl> wrote:
Remember what I wrote: this happened nearly two decades ago.
IP is the protocol that survived and most people aren t even aware what happened on local area networks before, say,1998.
I worked for Fuji, photosensitive films, paper and offset printing products.
Most of the IT equipment was made by DEC: PDP-11 s (/44, /84, /93, /24, /73 and /23), VAXes, an IBM mainframe (4081) and PC s.
And lots of other gear, most of it in the research lab. A Motorola box that ran Motorola Unix, and an RS/6000 under AIX 2.4 (?).
The lingua franca was DECnet and LAT. No IP, though some PC s used Novell and SNA over tokenring to make terminal emulation to the mainframe possible.
No IP. Sounds weird in today s world but DECnet eventually connected everything. We got a *very* early Cisco router that did level 1
DECnet routing between the corporate ethernet and the finance dept token ring. Another (DEC) box that routed DECnet over Datanet/1 (that s X25 in Europe IIRC). The mainframe used an SNA/DECnet gateway (the big channel attached box).
The RS/6000 and the Motorola systems also ran DECnet, endnode only.
To make this a little interesting we ran the first FDDI network in the Netherlands.
Trouble shooting wasn t always easy, especially if the SNA/DECnet gateway was involved!
Hans
Van: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] Namens Jason Stevens Verzonden: dinsdag, juli 2011 21:10 Aan: hecnet at update.uu.se Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
AIX and decnet? now that'd be ... non conformist & fun!
Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht. Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com Versie: 10.0.1388 / Virusdatabase: 1516/3760 - datum van uitgifte: 07/12/11
On 12 Jul 2011, at 21:48, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
DECnet/AIX was a 3rd party effort IIRC
I haven't searched the internet yet but who knows what is available.
Perhaps the opensource decnet kit may be portable.
I know there's a DECNet kit for Linux out there somewhere. Not sure about anything else. Nothing crops up on a quick Google search that isn't dated early 90s.
I wasn't aware that AIX was so hobbyist friendly. The hardware is vey unfamiliar for me though.
The hardware is generally pretty unique (save for it's similarity in patches to PPC Macs) - all IBM stuff generally is. The OS is proprietary but you can pick up media kits off eBay for not a lot. Also IBM documentation, certainly for RS/6000 / pSeries hardware and AIX, is readily available online without even needing a login.
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
That was a real surprise for me also. I assumed the only way to talk to IBM machines from the Digital world was the SNA Gateway. In early -90's when I was involved in making a IBM mainframe and the VMS environment (=DECnet) to communicate, there was the SNA Gateway in between.
When the communication was established, it worked fine. No problems that I ever heard of.
It interest me also to find a DECnet implementation for RS/6000. If anyone knows where to find one, please let me know.
I hate to admit (as an oath sworn DECcie) that I have a RS/6000 as a hobbyist system. In fact I have to admit that I do have most other unix platforms as well, because there are many interoperability things I've been exploring over time.
Kari
On 12.7.2011 21:35, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
It used to, at least around 1995 or so.
I
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Sampsa Laine<sampsa at mac.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 19:32:44
To:<hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
Oh AIX can run DECNET?
I might be able to procure one..
Sampsa
On 12 Jul 2011, at 19:19, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
You must have been dying of boredom to start a hobby like that :-)
To stay on topic (somewhat): why no RS/6000 under AIX? That platform can run DECnet at least.
I'm not so sure about the AS/400, only had to deal with it once so far. IP, not a DECnet problem IIRC.
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Sampsa Laine<sampsa at mac.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 19:00:59
To:<hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
So with my long, non-billing Sunday afternoons giving me ideas, I've started to ponder procuring a midrange IBM box, say an AS/400.
How much do these things cost (like say a 93 vintage), weigh and dissipate heat? Also, how do you hook them up?
Sampsa
You don't have to find old tapes for getting the Pathworks for OpenVMS (Netware) as it is called. On the VAX SPL's from 1995 to September 1998 you'll find the kit.
If you don't have the necessary SPL's, I can extract the kit from my SPL.
The licenses are more complicated to find as Pathworks licenses has never been available for hobbyists.
IIRC the Pathworks Netware implementation was at Netware V3.12. Compaq did put an end to that story and the development didn't reach the Netware V4.* level.
Kari
On 12.7.2011 22:40, Jason Stevens wrote:
I guess I got in at the end of the Netware years (Yeah I know
governments still use) and I did live through the entire Ethernet,
EthernetII, 802.2, 802.3 fiasco's (lol so much for standard....) All the
stuff we had midrange did speak IPX/SPX, from the NeXT to the RS/6000's
and PC's.... Oddly enough our VAX's actually had some netware thing. I
wish I'd managed to make copies of the tapes, but we did have Netware
for VAX/VMS.
For our mainframe access we used Novell's SAA gateway which... was
terrible, when Microsoft shipped SNA server 2.1 (was there a 1.0?!) we
RAN to that... And used it over IPX/SXP with people even using dialup
shiva's!
It wasn't until 95 with Microsoft including TCP/IP into the consumer OS
did it really start to matter.
Well from my POV anyways.
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:27 PM, H Vlems <hvlems at zonnet.nl
<mailto:hvlems at zonnet.nl>> wrote:
__
Remember what I wrote: this happened nearly two decades ago.____
IP is the protocol that survived and most people aren t even aware
what happened on local area networks before, say,1998.____
I worked for Fuji, photosensitive films, paper and offset printing
products.____
Most of the IT equipment was made by DEC: PDP-11 s (/44, /84, /93,
/24, /73 and /23), VAXes, an IBM mainframe (4081) and PC s.____
And lots of other gear, most of it in the research lab. A Motorola
box that ran Motorola Unix, and an RS/6000 under AIX 2.4 (?).____
The lingua franca was DECnet and LAT. No IP, though some PC s used
Novell and SNA over tokenring to make terminal emulation to the
mainframe possible.____
No IP. Sounds weird in today s world but DECnet eventually
connected everything. We got a **very** early Cisco router that did
level 1____
DECnet routing between the corporate ethernet and the finance dept
token ring. Another (DEC) box that routed DECnet over Datanet/1
(that s X25 in Europe IIRC). The mainframe used an SNA/DECnet
gateway (the big channel attached box).____
The RS/6000 and the Motorola systems also ran DECnet, endnode only.____
To make this a little interesting we ran the first FDDI network in
the Netherlands.____
Trouble shooting wasn t always easy, especially if the SNA/DECnet
gateway was involved!____
Hans____
__ __
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Van:*owner-__hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:hecnet at Update.UU.SE>__
[mailto:owner- <mailto:owner->__hecnet at Update.UU.SE
<mailto:hecnet at Update.UU.SE>__] *Namens *Jason Stevens
*Verzonden:* dinsdag, juli 2011 21:10
*Aan:* hecnet at update.uu.se <mailto:hecnet at update.uu.se>
*Onderwerp:* Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....____
__ __
AIX and decnet? now that'd be ... non conformist & fun! ____
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht.
Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
Versie: 10.0.1388 / Virusdatabase: 1516/3760 - datum van uitgifte:
07/12/11____
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
On 12 Jul 2011, at 19:00, Sampsa Laine wrote:
So with my long, non-billing Sunday afternoons giving me ideas, I've started to ponder procuring a midrange IBM box, say an AS/400.
How much do these things cost (like say a 93 vintage), weigh and dissipate heat? Also, how do you hook them up?
Don't buy an AS400. Buy an RS/6000 - you can pick up a decent one for anywhere between 50GBP and 5000 GBP :D
My personal home use favourites are the RS/6000 43P Model 150 (mini tower with PCI and a 640e Power PC), the 44P Model 170 (similar to 43P but POWER-III up to 450MHz) and the 7046-B50. All of them are workable in that they are quite, don't use MCA expansions and don't draw a fat lot of power. All of them will run AIX 5L too AFAIK which is relatively recent and well supported.
Nice thing about IBM too is the computer IS your OS license. Because no IBM RS/6000 (or any other system aside from x86 gear) is sold without an OS license, they don't bother printing them they just let anyone with hardware run the OS (support costs extra mind you). It's a nice touch and means AIX is very accessible as a Hobbyist. It's taken over my 'pet UNIX' slot from Solaris since Oracle castrated the free license.
Others mentioned DECNet will run on AIX, I suspect not on more modern versions but maybe 4.3.3 might run it?
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
Hello!
Mark those idiots at Oracle didn't kneecap the free license for
Solaris (also called SunOS, and a lot of nasty and disgusting words
which only a fellow use would understand,), they only threw more brick
walls to destroy to make use of it.
All that's needed besides a machine to operate it, is would you
believe, knowing the right people. It happens I have scads of those
copies staring at me right now.
I also have (she's currently asleep at the moment) a SPARC system
running Solaris 10 released in March of 2005.
Now what fool told you that? We can take that off list if you want.
Nice signature by the way, where did you find it?
And yes all of the above is indeed true. I spent most of my early
years arguing with systems like that. Also fighting with my ISP to get
better acceptance for non Windows systems other then the early efforts
of the Mac squad.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
DECnet/AIX was a 3rd party effort IIRC
I haven't searched the internet yet but who knows what is available.
Perhaps the opensource decnet kit may be portable.
I wasn't aware that AIX was so hobbyist friendly. The hardware is vey unfamiliar for me though.
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 21:34:31
To: <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
On 12 Jul 2011, at 19:00, Sampsa Laine wrote:
So with my long, non-billing Sunday afternoons giving me ideas, I've started to ponder procuring a midrange IBM box, say an AS/400.
How much do these things cost (like say a 93 vintage), weigh and dissipate heat? Also, how do you hook them up?
Don't buy an AS400. Buy an RS/6000 - you can pick up a decent one for anywhere between 50GBP and 5000 GBP :D
My personal home use favourites are the RS/6000 43P Model 150 (mini tower with PCI and a 640e Power PC), the 44P Model 170 (similar to 43P but POWER-III up to 450MHz) and the 7046-B50. All of them are workable in that they are quite, don't use MCA expansions and don't draw a fat lot of power. All of them will run AIX 5L too AFAIK which is relatively recent and well supported.
Nice thing about IBM too is the computer IS your OS license. Because no IBM RS/6000 (or any other system aside from x86 gear) is sold without an OS license, they don't bother printing them they just let anyone with hardware run the OS (support costs extra mind you). It's a nice touch and means AIX is very accessible as a Hobbyist. It's taken over my 'pet UNIX' slot from Solaris since Oracle castrated the free license.
Others mentioned DECNet will run on AIX, I suspect not on more modern versions but maybe 4.3.3 might run it?
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
On 12 Jul 2011, at 19:00, Sampsa Laine wrote:
So with my long, non-billing Sunday afternoons giving me ideas, I've started to ponder procuring a midrange IBM box, say an AS/400.
How much do these things cost (like say a 93 vintage), weigh and dissipate heat? Also, how do you hook them up?
Don't buy an AS400. Buy an RS/6000 - you can pick up a decent one for anywhere between 50GBP and 5000 GBP :D
My personal home use favourites are the RS/6000 43P Model 150 (mini tower with PCI and a 640e Power PC), the 44P Model 170 (similar to 43P but POWER-III up to 450MHz) and the 7046-B50. All of them are workable in that they are quite, don't use MCA expansions and don't draw a fat lot of power. All of them will run AIX 5L too AFAIK which is relatively recent and well supported.
Nice thing about IBM too is the computer IS your OS license. Because no IBM RS/6000 (or any other system aside from x86 gear) is sold without an OS license, they don't bother printing them they just let anyone with hardware run the OS (support costs extra mind you). It's a nice touch and means AIX is very accessible as a Hobbyist. It's taken over my 'pet UNIX' slot from Solaris since Oracle castrated the free license.
Others mentioned DECNet will run on AIX, I suspect not on more modern versions but maybe 4.3.3 might run it?
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
Umm, yes assuming you meant the Confusian way, right?
Van: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] Namens Mark Wickens Verzonden: dinsdag, juli 2011 21:30 Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
I think they call that 'interesting times' ;) On 12/07/11 21:27, H Vlems wrote:
Remember what I wrote: this happened nearly two decades ago.
IP is the protocol that survived and most people aren t even aware what happened on local area networks before, say,1998.
I worked for Fuji, photosensitive films, paper and offset printing products.
Most of the IT equipment was made by DEC: PDP-11 s (/44, /84, /93, /24, /73 and /23), VAXes, an IBM mainframe (4081) and PC s.
And lots of other gear, most of it in the research lab. A Motorola box that ran Motorola Unix, and an RS/6000 under AIX 2.4 (?).
The lingua franca was DECnet and LAT. No IP, though some PC s used Novell and SNA over tokenring to make terminal emulation to the mainframe possible.
No IP. Sounds weird in today s world but DECnet eventually connected everything. We got a *very* early Cisco router that did level 1
DECnet routing between the corporate ethernet and the finance dept token ring. Another (DEC) box that routed DECnet over Datanet/1 (that s X25 in Europe IIRC). The mainframe used an SNA/DECnet gateway (the big channel attached box).
The RS/6000 and the Motorola systems also ran DECnet, endnode only.
To make this a little interesting we ran the first FDDI network in the Netherlands.
Trouble shooting wasn t always easy, especially if the SNA/DECnet gateway was involved!
Hans
Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht. Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com Versie: 10.0.1388 / Virusdatabase: 1516/3760 - datum van uitgifte: 07/12/11
