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Re: KG11 emulation probably defective -->diagnostic ZKGAB0 for KG11 runs without complaints. --> Crc on Rsx11 async lines

by R. Voorhorst

By the way, Johnny, was KG11 also used on serial async Decnet11MP lines or was that always software? Reindert -----Original Message----- From: Johnny Billquist [mailto:bqt@softjar.se] Sent: Monday, 31 January, 2022 08:15 To: hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se Subject: [HECnet] Re: KG11 emulation probably defective -->diagnostic ZKGAB0 for KG11 runs without complaints. I agree that it would be nice to confirm that this works in real hardware, but I also find it unlikely that it wouldn't. While DEC was not perfect, I would expect that they actually had tested this before releasing the software. Johnny On 2022-01-31 01:51, R. Voorhorst wrote: > @Dave: > > It would only be worth the time and energy to prove if current > Decnet11MP in combination with KG11 would work in a Dup to Dup or Dmc > connection, which in hardware take a serious effort. > In virtual reality it is far more easy to arrange such things. > Unless I cannot find a bug quickly enough, then it could be helpful to > request you to check on it. > > > Thanks though for the time being. > > Reindert > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > Sent: Sunday, 30 January, 2022 18:25 > To: The Hobbyist DECnet mailing list <hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se> > Subject: [HECnet] Re: KG11 emulation probably defective -->diagnostic > ZKGAB0 for KG11 runs without complaints. > > On 1/30/22 12:21 PM, Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm wrote: >> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 5:34 AM, Reindert wrote: >>> The diagnostics in XXDP for KG11 completes without problems, so far, >>> so > good. >>> It limits the scope to interface problems between Decnet11MP and >>> Simh > KG11. >> >> We really don't know how robust the diagnostic is and if it exercises >> the same details that are used by the DDCMP implementation. >> >> You could run the DDCMP case with KG11 debugging enabled and identify >> what > it is doing precisely and then go back and see if the diagnostic is > doing the same stuff... > > I have a KG11-A board; if it would be helpful, I can install it in > a > PDP-11 at LSSM perhaps this week. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > _______________________________________________ > HECnet mailing list -- hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se To unsubscribe send an > email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se > > _______________________________________________ > HECnet mailing list -- hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se To unsubscribe send an > email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol _______________________________________________ HECnet mailing list -- hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se

3 years, 8 months

Re: native Dup sync line revisited --> KG11 emulation probably defective --> initial exploration

by R. Voorhorst

L.S. Reviewing the code from J. Dundas reveals it passed a diagnostic ZKGAB0 which is a xxdp component. There are listings of maindecs, no sources and the microfiche listing quality is quite low, so restoration of source code is laborious at best. It also happens to be a component of Anf10 for Tops10 and any image has a quick check for the KG11 if configured to be present. I think for now the chance that the KG11 itself is somehow corrupt is low regarding the well specified design path followed in creation, so probably a mismatch between Rsx11 software and the current KG11 implementation is more probable cause. It also appears the KG11 was used in the Rsts corner for Dup, Dp and Du and the Ibm 2780 interfaces. The docs in simh KG11 does not reveal whether it was tested in a simulated actual software system. Lacking the diagnostics sources except Chk11.P11 which is very limited in scope, XXDP might be the ultimate quickest way to test it. Reindert -----Original Message----- From: R. Voorhorst [mailto:R.Voorhorst@swabhawat.com] Sent: Sunday, 30 January, 2022 09:53 To: 'The Hobbyist DECnet mailing list' <hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se> Subject: [HECnet] Re: native Dup sync line revisited --> revisited Dup test on pdp11 --> KG11 emulation probably defective Apart from morons with an incurable inclination to the complex difficult thereby shooting in the own feet like me .... ? I do not know, but I suppose on Rsx11 the serial async Decnet lines might use KG11 assisted crc16 generation/checking as well and the problem might be in Rsx11M software itself, less likely, or more likely in KG11 simulation. Johnny might know this. As I have done the KG8 I think I am more predisposed to look at the KG11 excepting the writer of the KG11 simulation, so I will check for the existence of a diagnostic, will see what goes wrong and propose a fix. KG11 is not a complex device. Best regards, Reindert -----Original Message----- From: Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm [mailto:Mark@infocomm.com] Sent: Sunday, 30 January, 2022 01:26 To: R. Voorhorst <R.Voorhorst(a)swabhawat.com>; hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se Subject: [HECnet] Re: native Dup sync line revisited --> revisited Dup test on pdp11 --> problem solved: Simh KG11 emulation probably defective On Saturday, January 29, 2022 at 4:04 PM, R. Voorhorst wrote: > L.S. > > With a bit time on hand and the standstill after Paul's initial test > from dup to pydecnet which appeared to be successful, I now undertook > a test as Mark liked to have it preferably. > So I did a fresh netgen on a simple configuration from simple basic > install Rsx11MP system for only a Decnet end-node with one single Dup > line communicating to a known working Pdp11 Rsx11MP Dmc circuit. > > I saw no difference from what I reported initially and later with > logging, as was to be expected; my complex setup behaves exactly the > same in this respect as it does for years in a complex network setup > for Rsx and Rsts, and > RT11 without network. > > This is on a Windows-2008R2 server and I suspect Paul did his test on > unix/linux , however although it differs, that should be moot as far > as Simh is concerned. > > There could be another difference though. Paul would probably have > taken the default route and used Ddcmp withouth KG11 support: Dup > without Kdp is the only sync line to use it, though async Decnet > DL/DZ/VH might use it as well. > As I prefer the most complex configs possible (any two of a kind where > possible as Dec used to have them), I do also employ the KG11, so for > Dup support it will be used when configured so in Decnet11MP. > On a sim it is not that effective, but in hardware in the past it did > make a difference for fast crc computing. > > So I retested with no KG11 support and indeed, now the Dup works as > expected. > What appears to be strange is, that small packets up to 8 bytes are > not corrupted but the larger ones do. Maybe in Decnet11MP, the small > packets are totally preconfigured in the software program with crc > inclusive and the > KG11 is then bypassed effectively, bu, that should have to be > verified. At least the combination KG11 and Decnet11MP KG11 support is defective. > > So Simh Dup works in software Ddcmp packet generation, but the Simh > KG11 seem to generate bad checksums and/or checks. > For the Pdp8A, I have a functioning KG8 simulation that works in > Rts-8, so there is a test reference to fall back on. > > So I admit and confirm that basic Dup in simh software wise between > Pdp11's and with various counterparts (DMC) indeed works, which would > make it serve as a base for other sync line implementations like DP8-E(A). So, you've proven to yourself that the KG11 is at least somewhat broken. Looking back at the change history for this device, I've made changes relating to how it glues into the PDP11 I/O space, but nothing at all about how the device actually functions. What else uses this device? Is there a diagnostic? - Mark _______________________________________________ HECnet mailing list -- hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se _______________________________________________ HECnet mailing list -- hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se

3 years, 9 months

Re: native Dup sync line revisited --> revisited Dup test on pdp11 --> KG11 emulation probably defective

by R. Voorhorst

Apart from morons with an incurable inclination to the complex difficult thereby shooting in the own feet like me .... ? I do not know, but I suppose on Rsx11 the serial async Decnet lines might use KG11 assisted crc16 generation/checking as well and the problem might be in Rsx11M software itself, less likely, or more likely in KG11 simulation. Johnny might know this. As I have done the KG8 I think I am more predisposed to look at the KG11 excepting the writer of the KG11 simulation, so I will check for the existence of a diagnostic, will see what goes wrong and propose a fix. KG11 is not a complex device. Best regards, Reindert -----Original Message----- From: Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm [mailto:Mark@infocomm.com] Sent: Sunday, 30 January, 2022 01:26 To: R. Voorhorst <R.Voorhorst(a)swabhawat.com>; hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se Subject: [HECnet] Re: native Dup sync line revisited --> revisited Dup test on pdp11 --> problem solved: Simh KG11 emulation probably defective On Saturday, January 29, 2022 at 4:04 PM, R. Voorhorst wrote: > L.S. > > With a bit time on hand and the standstill after Paul's initial test > from dup to pydecnet which appeared to be successful, I now undertook > a test as Mark liked to have it preferably. > So I did a fresh netgen on a simple configuration from simple basic > install Rsx11MP system for only a Decnet end-node with one single Dup > line communicating to a known working Pdp11 Rsx11MP Dmc circuit. > > I saw no difference from what I reported initially and later with > logging, as was to be expected; my complex setup behaves exactly the > same in this respect as it does for years in a complex network setup > for Rsx and Rsts, and > RT11 without network. > > This is on a Windows-2008R2 server and I suspect Paul did his test on > unix/linux , however although it differs, that should be moot as far > as Simh is concerned. > > There could be another difference though. Paul would probably have > taken the default route and used Ddcmp withouth KG11 support: Dup > without Kdp is the only sync line to use it, though async Decnet > DL/DZ/VH might use it as well. > As I prefer the most complex configs possible (any two of a kind where > possible as Dec used to have them), I do also employ the KG11, so for > Dup support it will be used when configured so in Decnet11MP. > On a sim it is not that effective, but in hardware in the past it did > make a difference for fast crc computing. > > So I retested with no KG11 support and indeed, now the Dup works as > expected. > What appears to be strange is, that small packets up to 8 bytes are > not corrupted but the larger ones do. Maybe in Decnet11MP, the small > packets are totally preconfigured in the software program with crc > inclusive and the > KG11 is then bypassed effectively, bu, that should have to be > verified. At least the combination KG11 and Decnet11MP KG11 support is defective. > > So Simh Dup works in software Ddcmp packet generation, but the Simh > KG11 seem to generate bad checksums and/or checks. > For the Pdp8A, I have a functioning KG8 simulation that works in > Rts-8, so there is a test reference to fall back on. > > So I admit and confirm that basic Dup in simh software wise between > Pdp11's and with various counterparts (DMC) indeed works, which would > make it serve as a base for other sync line implementations like DP8-E(A). So, you've proven to yourself that the KG11 is at least somewhat broken. Looking back at the change history for this device, I've made changes relating to how it glues into the PDP11 I/O space, but nothing at all about how the device actually functions. What else uses this device? Is there a diagnostic? - Mark _______________________________________________ HECnet mailing list -- hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se

3 years, 9 months

Re: HECnet Digest, Vol 2, Issue 9

by Wilm Boerhout

I am forwarding all enquiries for the hardware in Zoetermeer. Expect to hear from Tony M. Wilm -----Original Message----- From: hecnet-request(a)lists.dfupdate.se <hecnet-request(a)lists.dfupdate.se> Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2022 5:45 PM To: hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se Subject: HECnet Digest, Vol 2, Issue 9 Send HECnet mailing list submissions to hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to hecnet-request(a)lists.dfupdate.se You can reach the person managing the list at hecnet-owner(a)lists.dfupdate.se When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of HECnet digest..."

3 years, 9 months

TIMEX3 Error?

by Thomas DeBellis

An XKL monitor can stay up longer than a standard DEC or PANDA monitor. However, there is no way for a program to detect this with the TIME% JSYS. XKL defined a magic value to put into AC1 that is looked for and, if it is not there, the call is failed with a TIMEX3 error. Does anybody either know the definition of TIMEX3 or where I could get it? It's not in the PANDA MONSYM.

3 years, 9 months

Re: How long has your 20 been up?

by Thomas DeBellis

[Apologies if this is duplicate, I wasn't sure what list was active and when] Thanks for the URL, I'll put it into the enhancement list. I'm still not sure what I would put into the monitor and what would go into a light weight (or full) NTP client, but I'll have a think about it. Passing on to the Department of Pointless Programming, I 'enhanced' uptime to handle the maximum 70 bit millisecond uptime. It is: VENTI2 up for 37539161 Millennia, 7 Centuries, 2 Decades, 9 Years, 8 Weeks, 2 Days, 11 Hours, 35 Minutes, 3 Seconds and 423 Milliseconds So 37 million millennia is .../umm/... well it's a long time. In fact, at well over two and half times the current age of the universe, it may even be long enough for politicians to evolve into decent, caring, thinking individuals. The math was actually unremarkable, I changed an integer divide instruction into a routine to handle single (IDIV), double (DIV) and quadruple intermediate results (DDIV), picking the fastest divide that wouldn't overflow. The harder part was rewriting the grammatical routines to properly inflect plural noun cases. Once you get past Years, English numerological noun inflection is no longer agglutanive (like Spanish) but rather fusional, being more akin to Latin and Italian (and considered 'irregular'). So the routine did the wrong thing. A little more than half the systems programming staff at Columbia were bi-lingual, some spoke three or more languages. So it bugged us to see Unix cop-outs like "1 item(s) processed". I mean, it's a comparison and conditional transfer; an if statement--barely more than 5 minutes' work. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > On 1/20/22 5:21 PM, Peter Lothberg wrote: > > Time.... > >> Not quite. The acronym actually says that it is not solar time, it's >> Greenwich MEAN Time. UTC is merely the new name for GMT, obviously >> adopted to keep the French from fulminating. > > GMT was established by the Greenwich observatory observing the sun. > > When the atomic second was created the target was the year 1900 GMT > second. > > GMT is based on earth position, and it's modern equivalent is UT1, > when UTC and UT1 differs more than 0.92 sec > > we do leap seconds. > > https://www.iers.org/IERS/EN/Science/EarthRotation/UT1LOD.html > > UTC is based on a constant running timescale based on the frequency of > CS133 oscillating between two > > hyper fine states. > > So the difference between GMT and UTC can be almost a second, and > there is no system that > > distributes GMT, BTP, GPS etc are all UTC based. > > -P >

3 years, 9 months

PyDECnet T1.1

by Paul Koning

I have created a T1.1 (beta) branch of PyDECnet, which seems to be working well enough to take for a trial run. I currently have it running as the HECnet mapper node (28NH). That's not a major stress test since it's an end node. Assuming things go well I'll switch PYTHON, the area 41 backbone router, to this version in a couple of days. If anyone wants to try this, you can find the code at svn://akdesign.dyndns.org/pydecnet/branches/t1.1/pydecnet -- in other words, same Subversion server but at the branches/T1.1 subtree rather than trunk. Be sure to read CHANGES.txt, there are some small changes to the config files. And if you use the API (HTTP GET or POST to /api, in V1.0) you'll need to make changes; I dropped that approach since it wasn't workable going forward. The replacement is actually much easier and there are some support modules ("connectors") to simplify things further. See doc/api.txt for details. paul

3 years, 9 months

Datatrieve-11 and DECnet at the same time in a program in RSX?

by Johnny Billquist

Ok, it's highly unlikely that anyone cares, but just in case I am posting this anyway. When using RSX-11M-Plus, if you write a program that uses the Datatrieve-11 callable interface over DECnet, your program cannot use DECnet itself for anything in parallel. Which sucks. I've just done some changes to the Datatrieve-11 call interface library, so that this is now possible to do. Ping me if you want to know more. I've also written a nice interface from PDP-11 C, which makes it pretty easy to use both Datatrieve-11 and DECnet. The weird things I amuse myself with, 20 years after anyone stopped caring. I should probably start writing somekind of manual with how to do these things that are not obvious, might not be documented, or that I might have fixed over the years... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

3 years, 9 months

The new list

by Keith Halewood

Hi, Apologies if I caused some bounces or timeouts with messages. Cassini.dfupdate.se is in the 'Hetzner' 65.108.0.0/15 subnet. Seemingly large swathes of that part of the Internet have a very low reputation in terms of port scanners, spammers, brute force attackers, sources of DOS attacks etc.. I've made exceptions. Keith

3 years, 9 months

How long has your 20 been up?

by tommytimesharing＠gmail.com

Check it out: @_uptiME.EXE.2_ TOMMYT up for 1 Year, 2 Days, 16 Hours, 36 Minutes, 26 Seconds and 582 Milliseconds @_timET2.EXE.4 _ Tops-20 was booted on Saturday, January 16, 2021 8:46:38PM-EST. It will crash with an UP2LNG BUGHLT on Friday, February 18, 2022 1:08:57PM-EST. @ UPTIME and TIMET2 are two programs that I wrote several years; ago, UPTIME in 2017 and TIMET2 in 2006.? I wrote them because I found the hours format given by SYSTAT SYSTEM and INFORMATION MONITOR-STATISTICS to be a little opaque and they didn't have the information I wanted, viz: @_sysTAT sySTEM_ ?Tue 18-Jan-2022 13:28:45? Up *8800:42:07!!!!!!!!* ?4+7 Jobs?? Load av?? 0.01?? 0.02?? 0.02 ?No operator in attendance @_iNFORMATION (ABOUT) monITOR-STATISTICS_ ?Up *8800:42:10!!!!!!!!* ?Idle 99%? Waiting 0%? Sched ovh 0%? Pager traps 0% ?Swap reads 28049 Writes 385176? File reads 4643699 Writes 3677925 ?8092 Pages of user memory ?4259771001 Term wakeups? 1255 Term interrupts ?NBAL av?? 0.32? NRUN av?? 0.02 ?Runtime of jobs on sched queues 0-6 (sec) ?? ?143964??? 16409??? 14494??? 1012??? 1756 4846??? 4215 @ I wrote TIMET2 because I needed to know when to set a shutdown. If you don't do that and you hit the uptime limit, then the machine simple crashes with an UP2LNG BUGHLT. This happens because the uptime millisecond counter is a signed 36 bit integer, which will roll over and become negative after 1 Year, 4 Weeks, 5 Days, 16 Hours, 22 Minutes, 18 Seconds and 367 Milliseconds.? You would think the code would self-set a 'graceful' shutdown, but it doesn't...? Maybe I'll do that one of these days; it's easy enough. Since the PDP-10 does not have unsigned compares, fixing this would involve changing a rather large number of comparisons. Assuming you kept the storage at a single word, going unsigned would get you out to 2 Years, 9 Weeks, 4 Days, 8 Hours, 44 Minutes, 36 Seconds and 735 Milliseconds.? That's probably still not that great given today's hardware. Going to an unsigned double word format would obviously get you a far larger uptime.? However, the current arithmetic that I use can 'only'? handle a maximum uptime of 34,359,738,367,999 of milliseconds.? This works out to be 1092 Years, 27 Weeks, 5 Days, 3 Hours, 46 Minutes, 7 Seconds and 999 Milliseconds.? Since the time of day counter expires in 7-Aug-2576 7:59:59 PM EDT, I used a faster instruction...? Otherwise, going over a millennium between reboots seemed reasonable unless you find yourself in a significantly sub-luminal spacecraft going someplace inter-galactic... I know that XKL fixed at least part of the uptime problem, but I don't remember what that limit is.? What are the limits for other systems?

3 years, 9 months

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