22 Dec
2021
22 Dec
'21
8:55 p.m.
Are there any thoughts about adding file transfer capabilities to PyDECnet at some point
in the future? If a pyDECnet node could implement a FAL server to share a directory and/or
offer a way to copy files to/from other nodes over DECnet, that would be really cool. I
think it could make a very nice option for moving files between DECnet nodes and modern
systems without needing to wrestle with Linux DECnet drivers or install TCP/IP on the
DECnet nodes. I don't know how hard it would be to implement, or if there's any
way I could contribute.
I'm imagining a silly future in which there is a native Python implementation of an
entire RSX-11 or VMS system. :)
While I'm here... is this mailing list disappearing soon due to the Update eviction? I
plan to chip in for an Update membership for 2022.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
22 Dec
22 Dec
8:58 p.m.
On 2021-12-22 20:55, Mark J. Blair wrote:
I'm imagining a silly future in which there is a native Python implementation of an
entire RSX-11 or VMS system. :)
Not sure what is meant by that.
While I'm here... is this mailing list
disappearing soon due to the Update eviction? I plan to chip in for an Update membership
for 2022.
I'll get an update on that. Hopefully this weekend. Current list needs
to get moved before the end of the year...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
8:59 p.m.
On Dec 22, 2021, at 11:58 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2021-12-22 20:55, Mark J. Blair wrote:
I am not, either. It's a half-formed silly idea.
I'm imagining a silly future in which there
is a native Python implementation of an entire RSX-11 or VMS system. :)
Not sure what is meant by that. While I'm
here... is this mailing list disappearing soon due to the Update eviction? I plan to chip
in for an Update membership for 2022.
I'll get an update on that. Hopefully this weekend. Current list needs to get moved
before the end of the year...
9:14 p.m.
On 2021-12-22 20:59, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Well... Any idea, no matter how silly, if it includes RSX, I want to
hear about it. :-)
So, what was/is the idea?
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Dec 22, 2021, at 11:58 AM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2021-12-22 20:55, Mark J. Blair wrote:
I am not, either. It's a half-formed silly idea. I'm imagining a silly future in which there
is a native Python implementation of an entire RSX-11 or VMS system. :)
Not sure what is meant by that.
9:17 p.m.
On Dec 22, 2021, at 12:14 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2021-12-22 20:59, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Well... Any idea, no matter how silly, if it includes RSX, I want to hear about it. :-)
So, what was/is the idea?
I already told you the whole concept! :D A VMS-like or RSX-like shell environment, but
implemented in Python and running on any old modern system. It probably doesn't even
make sense, but I hope somebody does it anyway. :)
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
On Dec
22, 2021, at 11:58 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2021-12-22 20:55, Mark J. Blair wrote:
I am not, either. It's a half-formed silly
idea. I'm imagining a silly future in which there
is a native Python implementation of an entire RSX-11 or VMS system. :)
Not sure what is meant by that.
9:19 p.m.
On 2021-12-22 21:17, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Hmm. I must have forgotten.
But a shell like MCR or DCL should be doable. But it would be a lot of
work if you want the solution to be more than skin deep, since all tools
and environment is so different. You'll have to basically write every
command and tool to fit in as well, and use nothing of the "modern"
system beyond the kernel itself.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Dec 22, 2021, at 12:14 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2021-12-22 20:59, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Well... Any idea, no matter how silly, if it includes RSX, I want to hear about it. :-)
So, what was/is the idea?
I already told you the whole concept! :D A VMS-like or RSX-like shell environment, but
implemented in Python and running on any old modern system. It probably doesn't even
make sense, but I hope somebody does it anyway. :) On Dec
22, 2021, at 11:58 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2021-12-22 20:55, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> I'm imagining a silly future in which there is a native Python implementation of
an entire RSX-11 or VMS system. :)
Not sure what is meant by that.
I am not, either. It's a half-formed silly
idea.
9:21 p.m.
On Dec 22, 2021, at 12:19 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
But a shell like MCR or DCL should be doable. But it would be a lot of work if you want
the solution to be more than skin deep, since all tools and environment is so different.
You'll have to basically write every command and tool to fit in as well, and use
nothing of the "modern" system beyond the kernel itself.
See, I think you grok the concept in fullness.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
11:23 p.m.
On Dec 22, 2021, at 12:17 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x
at nf6x.net> wrote:
It may not be as crazy as you think. I?ve been working with a Java based system, that
basically implements a complete OS running under Java. At least that?s how I tend to
describe it to folks at work. Though it?s more like a Mainframe OS, than RSX or VMS.
Zane
On Dec 22, 2021, at 12:14 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2021-12-22 20:59, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Well... Any idea, no matter how silly, if it includes RSX, I want to hear about it. :-)
So, what was/is the idea?
I already told you the whole concept! :D A VMS-like or RSX-like shell environment, but
implemented in Python and running on any old modern system. It probably doesn't even
make sense, but I hope somebody does it anyway. :) On Dec
22, 2021, at 11:58 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2021-12-22 20:55, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> I'm imagining a silly future in which there is a native Python implementation of
an entire RSX-11 or VMS system. :)
Not sure what is meant by that.
I am not, either. It's a half-formed silly
idea. 
9:54 p.m.
On 12/22/21 2:55 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
I'm imagining a silly future in which there is a
native Python implementation of an entire RSX-11 or VMS system. :)
has been done in
Javascript (which runs in the broswer):
https://skn.noip.me/pdp11/pdp11.html
10:09 p.m.
On Dec 22, 2021, at 2:55 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at
nf6x.net> wrote:
Are there any thoughts about adding file transfer capabilities to PyDECnet at some point
in the future? If a pyDECnet node could implement a FAL server to share a directory and/or
offer a way to copy files to/from other nodes over DECnet, that would be really cool. I
think it could make a very nice option for moving files between DECnet nodes and modern
systems without needing to wrestle with Linux DECnet drivers or install TCP/IP on the
DECnet nodes. I don't know how hard it would be to implement, or if there's any
way I could contribute.
Yes, I'm planning to do that at some point. DAP is a rather large protocol and it
assumes RMS, which is another kettle of fish.
paul
10:15 p.m.
On 2021-12-22 22:09, Paul Koning wrote:
It should be doable with a subset that is sortof not RMS. After all,
Ultrix have DAP, for example. (As does Linux.)
RSX can be built with a DAP that don't use RMS, and you just get
whatever functionality is offered by FCS, which is just a subset as well.
But I suspect it's still very non-trivial. :-)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Dec 22, 2021, at 2:55 PM, Mark J. Blair
<nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
Are there any thoughts about adding file transfer capabilities to PyDECnet at some point
in the future? If a pyDECnet node could implement a FAL server to share a directory and/or
offer a way to copy files to/from other nodes over DECnet, that would be really cool. I
think it could make a very nice option for moving files between DECnet nodes and modern
systems without needing to wrestle with Linux DECnet drivers or install TCP/IP on the
DECnet nodes. I don't know how hard it would be to implement, or if there's any
way I could contribute.
Yes, I'm planning to do that at some point. DAP is a rather large protocol and it
assumes RMS, which is another kettle of fish.
10:17 p.m.
On Dec 22, 2021, at 1:09 PM, Paul Koning
<paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
Yes, I'm planning to do that at some point. DAP is a rather large protocol and it
assumes RMS, which is another kettle of fish.
I'm really looking forward to that, even if it is a limited subset that just supports
transferring plain files.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
10:40 p.m.
Paul Koning [paulkoning at comcast.net] wrote:
> On Dec 22, 2021, at 2:55 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
> Are there any thoughts about adding file transfer capabilities to
PyDECnet ...
Yes, I'm planning to do that at some point.
Please give us (pyDECnet users) a way to disable it - pyDECnet runs as
root and I'm not really comfortable having it become a program that can
remotely read or write files on my system.
Bob
10:45 p.m.
On Dec 22, 2021, at 4:40 PM, Robert Armstrong <bob
at jfcl.com> wrote:
Definitely. It will be just another DECnet object, and while there are several that come
enabled by default in PyDECnet, you can disable any of them if you don't want them.
See doc/config.txt. For example, if you don't want people to have read access via NCP
to your node's status information, disable object 19. Or set its
"verification" to "on", in that case it only works if you give it a
valid username/password defined on your host.
For FAL I intend to make it actually log in using the supplied access control info, so if
you give your credentials it would use your UID/GID. And if you allow guest access, it
would use whatever UID/GID is set up for that purpose, similar to FTP with guest access.
Apart from the protocol itself, this depends on a not yet existing feature, the ability to
start a subprocess and switch it to another UID. I believe I know how to do that but
haven't yet.
paul
Paul Koning [paulkoning at comcast.net] wrote:
> On Dec 22, 2021, at 2:55 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
> Are there any thoughts about adding file transfer capabilities to
PyDECnet
...
Yes, I'm planning to do that at some point.
Please give us (pyDECnet users) a way to disable it - pyDECnet runs as
root and I'm not really comfortable having it become a program that can
remotely read or write files on my system.
Bob
10:45 p.m.
On Dec 22, 2021, at 1:40 PM, Robert Armstrong <bob
at jfcl.com> wrote:
Please give us (pyDECnet users) a way to disable it - pyDECnet runs as
root and I'm not really comfortable having it become a program that can
remotely read or write files on my system.
Agreed! It seems like something that should be an optionally-enabled feature, and
something that can't serve anything outside of a specified directory tree (security
bugs notwithstanding). Write-only and read-only directories would be helpful, though that
may come for free just by using host filesystem permissions.
Hmm, I do have pyDECnet running as root here at home. I'll look into changing that.
ISTR that I set it up to run under a non-root account at work, but it'll be 2022
before I can easily verify that.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
10:50 p.m.
Pydecnet runs as a non-privileged user here, mainly because it connects to Ethernet via
tap devices whose interface ends are ?owned? by that non-privileged user. The non-Ethernet
circuits are over TCp or UDP ports not restricted to root-only.
K
On 22 Dec 2021, at 21:46, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at
nf6x.net> wrote:
?
On Dec 22, 2021, at 1:40 PM, Robert Armstrong
<bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
Please give us (pyDECnet users) a way to disable it - pyDECnet runs as
root and I'm not really comfortable having it become a program that can
remotely read or write files on my system.
Agreed! It seems like something that should be an optionally-enabled feature, and
something that can't serve anything outside of a specified directory tree (security
bugs notwithstanding). Write-only and read-only directories would be helpful, though that
may come for free just by using host filesystem permissions.
Hmm, I do have pyDECnet running as root here at home. I'll look into changing that.
ISTR that I set it up to run under a non-root account at work, but it'll be 2022
before I can easily verify that.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
11 p.m.
On Dec 22, 2021, at 4:45 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at
nf6x.net> wrote:
You have to run it as root is if it needs privs for some network service it uses. For
example, GRE may require that since it's a raw-packet mode. UDP or TCP probably do
not. Direct Ethernet access may or may not, it depends on the OS. (It doesn't on my
Mac, for example.)
But apart from cases like that, you can definitely run it as not-root. In fact, you can
tell it to change UID and/or GID at startup, and also do chroot if you like. I do that
for the mapper, not because it really seems to be necessary but because I wanted to have a
test case for that feature:
ExecStart=/usr/local/bin/pydecnet /etc/sysconfig/decnet/28nh.conf
/etc/sysconfig/decnet/http-28nh.conf --log-config /home/decnet/dev-logging-map.yaml
--pid-file /db/pydecnet.pid --chroot /home/decnet --uid nobody --daemon
paul
On Dec 22, 2021, at 1:40 PM, Robert Armstrong
<bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
Please give us (pyDECnet users) a way to disable it - pyDECnet runs as
root and I'm not really comfortable having it become a program that can
remotely read or write files on my system.
Agreed! It seems like something that should be an optionally-enabled feature, and
something that can't serve anything outside of a specified directory tree (security
bugs notwithstanding). Write-only and read-only directories would be helpful, though that
may come for free just by using host filesystem permissions.
Hmm, I do have pyDECnet running as root here at home. I'll look into changing that.
ISTR that I set it up to run under a non-root account at work, but it'll be 2022
before I can easily verify that.
10:11 p.m.
On Dec 22, 2021, at 2:55 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at
nf6x.net> wrote:
Are there any thoughts about adding file transfer capabilities to PyDECnet at some point
in the future? If a pyDECnet node could implement a FAL server to share a directory and/or
offer a way to copy files to/from other nodes over DECnet, that would be really cool. I
think it could make a very nice option for moving files between DECnet nodes and modern
systems without needing to wrestle with Linux DECnet drivers or install TCP/IP on the
DECnet nodes. I don't know how hard it would be to implement, or if there's any
way I could contribute.
I'm imagining a silly future in which there is a native Python implementation of an
entire RSX-11 or VMS system. :)
I suppose one could do a SIMH in Python, but I hate to imagine the size, or slowness, of
such a beast. I did once do a CPU emulation in Python, for a fairly simple CPU and only
the CPU, that wasn't too hard.
paul
10:17 p.m.
On 2021-12-22 22:11, Paul Koning wrote:
I thought about a simple CPU emulation, but I suspected that was not
what Mark was thinking of (and indeed wasn't). And since simh (as well
as e11, and others) already exists, why would anyone do one in Python at
this point?
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Dec 22, 2021, at 2:55 PM, Mark J. Blair
<nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
Are there any thoughts about adding file transfer capabilities to PyDECnet at some point
in the future? If a pyDECnet node could implement a FAL server to share a directory and/or
offer a way to copy files to/from other nodes over DECnet, that would be really cool. I
think it could make a very nice option for moving files between DECnet nodes and modern
systems without needing to wrestle with Linux DECnet drivers or install TCP/IP on the
DECnet nodes. I don't know how hard it would be to implement, or if there's any
way I could contribute.
I'm imagining a silly future in which there is a native Python implementation of an
entire RSX-11 or VMS system. :)
I suppose one could do a SIMH in Python, but I hate to imagine the size, or slowness, of
such a beast. I did once do a CPU emulation in Python, for a fairly simple CPU and only
the CPU, that wasn't too hard.
879
days inactive
879
days old
18 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
bob＠jfcl.com -
bqt＠softjar.se -
healyzh＠avanthar.com -
Keith.Halewood＠pitbulluk.org -
nf6x＠nf6x.net -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
supratim＠riseup.net