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ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) --> should be Ddcmp --> Re5

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

Yes, my idea as well and sync idle could probably be simulated with a 1 character sync packet (Udp?) every 10 sec. or so to determine (dead) line timeouts. So a certain simh standard for simulation for this should first be defined. Nice job for the creative programmers amongst us ... Reindert -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Paul Koning Sent: Friday, 19 November, 2021 01:12 To: hecnet at update.uu.se Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) --> should be Ddcmp --Re3 It seems like a very simple matter to simulate it as a basic character device, separate from the KMC pairing. The only real question is how you represent a sync data stream in a simullated device. Is it just the byte stream over a TCP connection? That would be easy for synchronous character mode. If you also want to simulate HDLC sync devices, that's a different matter entirely; there isn't an obvious way to do that. In other words, if someone wants this, just design how it communicates and do the code, it doesn't sound hard. paul > On Nov 18, 2021, at 6:35 PM, R. Voorhorst <R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com> wrote: > > No, the Dup is only simulated as Kdp/Dup combo, hence the Ddcmp characteristics of the pair. > > > Reindert > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist > Sent: Friday, 19 November, 2021 00:31 > To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE > Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) --> should be Ddcmp --Re2 > > Fair enough. > > But DUP11 is a sync character based interface. So that one too requires that you do DDCMP in software. But I didn't think simh simulated a DUP11? > > Johnny

3 years, 11 months

ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) --> should be Ddcmp --Re2

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

Yes, but they are async lines and these are indeed character based with software determining the protocol, not so the sync liness. Async decnet ddcmp behaves slightly differently from sync decnet ddcmp in number of characters used. Look at the packet contents in used characters and in between. Reindert -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 23:23 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) --> should be Ddcmp --Re Well... RSX for example can talk DDCMP over DZ11 or DL11 lines just as well, which are plain simple serial lines existing in simh. Hopefully such lines can be connected with interfaces doing DDCMP in hardware (simulated in simh of course), and it should all work. And any software running in RSX just have an interface that gives the DDCMP packet layer. The actual serial lines are not accessible as such by any other software than the DDCMP driver. Johnny On 2021-11-18 23:01, R. Voorhorst wrote: > Point in this case is that the ddcmp is handled in Simh and not in system software so software can only deal with packets/messages; there is need for a simh sync line where the software itself will be able to communicate in bytes/characters and synthesize the packets/messages as the next higher organization. > > Reindert > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On > Behalf Of Johnny Billquist > Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 22:39 > To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE > Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) --> should > be Ddcmp > > Well, a serial line over which DDCMP is running is purely a packet based interface. > > Johnny > > On 2021-11-18 21:46, R. Voorhorst wrote: >> Indeed it is Ddcmp, but the meaning is the difference between >> packet/message oriented and character oriented and the latter should also exist. >> >> Reindert >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On >> Behalf Of Robert Armstrong >> Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 21:11 >> To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE >> Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) >> >>> Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote: >>> They speak DDCMP, yes, but not DECnet. Any protocol layered over >>> DDCMP >> should work. >> >> Indeed, and we just proved that with ANF10 which uses the DMCs >> and DUPs but is not DECnet. >> >> Bob >> >> >> > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

3 years, 11 months

ANF10 network --> DN200/DN20 --> instant gratification ...? -->throttling

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

Nope: 2000/1 means 2000 instructions and wat 1 msec which is the resultion of the sleep timer. Reindert From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Supratim Sanyal Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 21:06 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> DN200/DN20 --> instant gratification ...? On 11/18/21 1:35 PM, Paul Koning wrote: On Nov 18, 2021, at 1:26 PM, Supratim Sanyal <mailto:supratim at riseup.net> <supratim at riseup.net> wrote: On 11/18/21 11:10 AM, R. Voorhorst wrote: Hi, Hi. ... 2. The simh config file for configuring a working simh Pdp11/34 with the proper throttling to make it work; the proper setting is important because of Chk11 init phase which is instruction timing based!!! How does one arrive at a realistic argument for throttle? Did you put 2000/1 because you reckon your host processor does 2000 instructions in the same time as the guest processor does 1? Or is it more pure clock speed based? SET THROTTLE 2000/1 Check the docs ("help set throttle"). The simplest is to say what instruction rate you want: "set throttle 300k" is probably a pretty realistic setting to make it look like an 11/20; "set throttle 2m" is a somewhat optimistic 11/70. I am interpreting the "2000/1" as "wait 2 seconds after one instruction" which cannot be right, hence my question. BTW, throttle is dicey; my MicroVAX 3800 (the SIMH "vax") machines are set to 1.9 mips (3.8 times of the 0.5 mip 11/780), but still they grab 100% of a core running *BSD. But this is a discussion for the SIMH forum, not here. paul --

3 years, 11 months

ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) --> should be Ddcmp --Re

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

Point in this case is that the ddcmp is handled in Simh and not in system software so software can only deal with packets/messages; there is need for a simh sync line where the software itself will be able to communicate in bytes/characters and synthesize the packets/messages as the next higher organization. Reindert -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 22:39 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) --> should be Ddcmp Well, a serial line over which DDCMP is running is purely a packet based interface. Johnny On 2021-11-18 21:46, R. Voorhorst wrote: > Indeed it is Ddcmp, but the meaning is the difference between > packet/message oriented and character oriented and the latter should also exist. > > Reindert > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On > Behalf Of Robert Armstrong > Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 21:11 > To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE > Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) > >> Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote: >> They speak DDCMP, yes, but not DECnet. Any protocol layered over >> DDCMP > should work. > > Indeed, and we just proved that with ANF10 which uses the DMCs and > DUPs but is not DECnet. > > Bob > > > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

3 years, 11 months

ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) --> should be Ddcmp

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

Indeed it is Ddcmp, but the meaning is the difference between packet/message oriented and character oriented and the latter should also exist. Reindert -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 21:11 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) > Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote: >They speak DDCMP, yes, but not DECnet. Any protocol layered over DDCMP should work. Indeed, and we just proved that with ANF10 which uses the DMCs and DUPs but is not DECnet. Bob

3 years, 11 months

ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet)

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

That will probably not realized any time soon. First, all simh sync interfaces speak inherently Decnet (Dmc/Dmr and Kdp/Dup); a simple character based sync line is not yet implemented but needed? Yes!. Second DN200 Rje like DN20/200 Decnet is not like Anf10 but Rsx11S based and it will not(yet) run; debugging is difficult because there almost no source code available to prevent reverse engineering. At the moment, luckily, it already crashes in the Init code and I have the sources for Rsx-11M 3.1 which is the family member of the used Rsx-11S. But there may be more being wrong before we get it running. So far my glazy eyes only see the prompt: DECnet-20 V3.0 Reindert From: Peter Lothberg [mailto:roll at stupi.com] Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 17:16 To: bob <bob at jfcl.com> Cc: Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net>; R. Voorhorst <R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com> Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup --> recipe for 8 Dups The red QZ sticker on MRC's 2020 (YIPYIP) I put there.. I have a picture of Nadja from LCM, but can't rememeber where. I will look at the DN200 code. I also looked at doing "ANF-NAT". -P _____ From: "bob" <bob at jfcl.com <mailto:bob at jfcl.com> > To: "Supratim Sanyal" <supratim at riseup.net <mailto:supratim at riseup.net> >, "Peter Lothberg" <roll at stupi.com <mailto:roll at stupi.com> > Cc: "R. Voorhorst" <R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com <mailto:R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com> > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2021 11:03:38 AM Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup --> recipe for 8 Dups What?s the user name and password for the guest account? GUEST and GUEST?? And somehow it seems like [666,666] would be a more appropriate PPN. Like Peter said, all these machines, even TWONKY, are really just clones of VENTI. Same TOPS10, same hardware configuration, same installed utilities, languages, etc. Until somebody starts actually doing something with them to make them unique, there isn?t any point in logging in anywhere else. I?m going to fire up a VAX (a real VAX, that is!) and see if I can read some of my old TOPS10 nine track tapes today. Don?t know how well they?ve survived over the last 40 years or so. BTW, is anybody interested in fooling with Reindert?s PDP11 RJE setup? That?d be something different? I stood next to MRC?s 2020, complete with all the stickers, at the LCM. Didn?t think to take my picture with it though.. Bob

3 years, 11 months

ANF10 network --> DN200/DN20 --> instant gratification ...?

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

Hi, For the impatient amongst thee I have as interim solution the following, pending the release of the software tree: 1. The load image for simh Pdp11 of Anfu63 being a 5 sync line DN200 with peripherals with node-number 63 (routers top down allocated). 2. The simh config file for configuring a working simh Pdp11/34 with the proper throttling to make it work; the proper setting is important because of Chk11 init phase which is instruction timing based!!! 3. The pdf of the complete listing file of the Anfu63 load image. This configuration maxes out on the number of possible connections to be usable as a star formation router. Beware: the plt plotter device is absent in current simh Pdp11 as I added it in my simh variants for Pdp8A sim (almost finished), Pdp11, Pdp10 and Pdp10-KI/KL; it should not be a problem and can be commented out. The config is for a Windows platform but you Unix/Linux guys will easily hack it into your suitable form. The config file is self-explanatory with respect to interconnecting; I keep a port number allocation schema for all my Decnet/Anf10 nodes. This configuration runs on a Pdp11 simh with a commit date from about 2 years ago, but I do not think it will preclude the current last commit. It you got it running, you can inspect the running node with Ddt11 from a KS10 based system. Download link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/170HhUK84d81MMjre8z5vgEennxPdJ10g/view?usp=s haring If problems, contact me . Fun and success, Reindert From: R. Voorhorst [mailto:R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com] Sent: Wednesday, 17 November, 2021 10:07 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Cc: 'Robert Armstrong' <bob at jfcl.com>; 'Peter Lothberg' <roll at stupi.com> Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup --> recipe for 8 Dups The following recipe enables 8 dups: In simh in Pdp10_defs.h: #define DUP_LINES 8 /* max # of DUP11's */ and rebuild the pdp10. In Tops10: Edit NETPRM.MAC in the monitor build tree, usually in [10,7,MON], and modify: MXNDUP==^D8 from ^D2 and reassemble NETPRM and D8KINT and replace it in TOPS10.REL. In SYSCNF.MAC locate M.KDUP and modify as follows M.KDUP==:10 ;; Type of line for KDP0 (ANF10,DECNET,USER,IBM) [ ;; This question is asked for each KDP (KMC/DUP line) indicated in the ;; previous question. Type the name of the network product that the line ;; will support.]: d M.0KDP==:2 M.1KDP==:2 M.2KDP==:2 M.3KDP==:2 M.4KDP==:1 M.5KDP==:1 M.6KDP==:1 M.7KDP==:1 The above values are for 4 Decnet and 4 Anf10 but that can be filled in differently as needed Then rebuild the monitor. Change the Simh Pdp10 config file with the required settings set dup lines=8 and attach definitions for Dup0 to Dup7. That is all there is to it; if the instructions are to sparse I will expand them; patched files are overkill here as generally my files have evolved further in version numbers and features and undoing the unnecessary ones may lead to errors. The DN200 files have to wait till next week as I have other obligations at the moment. Success, Reindert From: Robert Armstrong [mailto:bob at jfcl.com] Sent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2021 21:33 To: R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup Reindert, Post the details, please! Especially the TOPS10 patch. MONGEN limits you to two lines on the KS, but even if I manually edit the resulting SYSCNF.MAC file I still get errors when building the monitor. Are you also running an ANF10 network? Thanks, Bob From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of R. Voorhorst Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 12:18 PM To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup L.S. It is quite easy to expand this; currently I run 8 lines from the Kdp/dup and it works quite well. It needs a slight adaptation in Simh and another in Tops10, but you have to rebuild the monitor. Reindert From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2021 17:34 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: [HECnet] ANF10 network Supratim and I (with some help and encouragement from Peter) have set up an ANF10 network between the TOPS10 nodes VENTI and TWONKY. If you haven't heard of it, ANF10 (short for "A Networking Feature" - yes, really!) predates DECnet (I'm pretty sure, although I'm sure there will be debate about that) and provides mostly the same functions - remote terminals, file transfer, etc. ANF10 also has remote RJEs with card readers, line printers and terminal concentrators. .net/anf [ANF10 network: connected to VENTI(20), located at VENTI(20), 2 nodes] Node VENTI (20) SIMH KS10 VENTI 7.04 NET 14-Nov-21 Node TWONKY (37) SIMH KS10 TWONKY 7.04NET 15-Nov-21 It's possible to run ANF10 and DECnet both, and that's what we're doing so TWONKY and VENTI are also available on HECnet. If anybody else has a TOPS10 system and would like to connect it would be nice to add a few more nodes, but there is a problem. TOPS10 supports a maximum of two KDP/DUP lines on the KS10, and you need one for DECnet and the other for ANF10. That means each system can talk to at most one other ANF10 system, which limits the network size to two nodes. Bummer. There are a few options available - * DEC made some DNxx PDP-11 boxes that supported multiple ANF10 connections. We could set up one of these as a router. * Somebody could hack TOPS10 to allow more than two DUP lines. * Somebody could write a pyDECnet type gizmo that speaks ANF10. And there might be others that I haven't thought of yet. Any ideas? Bob

3 years, 11 months

Getting reconnected

by b4＠gewt.net

Been awhile since I've posted anything, or been connected but I'd like to work on getting reconnected to HECnet. I would still like to do Cisco connections - just need to pass that through the firewall. Can a more-modern ISR running IOS-XE do DECnet? (specifically a cisco 4321). Worst case I can just re-use the 2851, but that's got a lot of telephony config on it so would like to separate out uses if possible. (Also - you may have previously known me as Cory Smelosky - please update contact details and whatnot) I used to be area 9 - I will continue to use that area. Thanks! -- Madeline Autumn-Rose http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

3 years, 11 months

ANF10 network

by bob＠jfcl.com

Supratim and I (with some help and encouragement from Peter) have set up an ANF10 network between the TOPS10 nodes VENTI and TWONKY. If you haven't heard of it, ANF10 (short for "A Networking Feature" - yes, really!) predates DECnet (I'm pretty sure, although I'm sure there will be debate about that) and provides mostly the same functions - remote terminals, file transfer, etc. ANF10 also has remote RJEs with card readers, line printers and terminal concentrators. .net/anf [ANF10 network: connected to VENTI(20), located at VENTI(20), 2 nodes] Node VENTI (20) SIMH KS10 VENTI 7.04 NET 14-Nov-21 Node TWONKY (37) SIMH KS10 TWONKY 7.04NET 15-Nov-21 It's possible to run ANF10 and DECnet both, and that's what we're doing so TWONKY and VENTI are also available on HECnet. If anybody else has a TOPS10 system and would like to connect it would be nice to add a few more nodes, but there is a problem. TOPS10 supports a maximum of two KDP/DUP lines on the KS10, and you need one for DECnet and the other for ANF10. That means each system can talk to at most one other ANF10 system, which limits the network size to two nodes. Bummer. There are a few options available - . DEC made some DNxx PDP-11 boxes that supported multiple ANF10 connections. We could set up one of these as a router. . Somebody could hack TOPS10 to allow more than two DUP lines. . Somebody could write a pyDECnet type gizmo that speaks ANF10. And there might be others that I haven't thought of yet. Any ideas? Bob

3 years, 11 months

ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup --> recipe for 8 Dups

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

The following recipe enables 8 dups: In simh in Pdp10_defs.h: #define DUP_LINES 8 /* max # of DUP11's */ and rebuild the pdp10. In Tops10: Edit NETPRM.MAC in the monitor build tree, usually in [10,7,MON], and modify: MXNDUP==^D8 from ^D2 and reassemble NETPRM and D8KINT and replace it in TOPS10.REL. In SYSCNF.MAC locate M.KDUP and modify as follows M.KDUP==:10 ;; Type of line for KDP0 (ANF10,DECNET,USER,IBM) [ ;; This question is asked for each KDP (KMC/DUP line) indicated in the ;; previous question. Type the name of the network product that the line ;; will support.]: d M.0KDP==:2 M.1KDP==:2 M.2KDP==:2 M.3KDP==:2 M.4KDP==:1 M.5KDP==:1 M.6KDP==:1 M.7KDP==:1 The above values are for 4 Decnet and 4 Anf10 but that can be filled in differently as needed Then rebuild the monitor. Change the Simh Pdp10 config file with the required settings set dup lines=8 and attach definitions for Dup0 to Dup7. That is all there is to it; if the instructions are to sparse I will expand them; patched files are overkill here as generally my files have evolved further in version numbers and features and undoing the unnecessary ones may lead to errors. The DN200 files have to wait till next week as I have other obligations at the moment. Success, Reindert From: Robert Armstrong [mailto:bob at jfcl.com] Sent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2021 21:33 To: R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup Reindert, Post the details, please! Especially the TOPS10 patch. MONGEN limits you to two lines on the KS, but even if I manually edit the resulting SYSCNF.MAC file I still get errors when building the monitor. Are you also running an ANF10 network? Thanks, Bob From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of R. Voorhorst Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 12:18 PM To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup L.S. It is quite easy to expand this; currently I run 8 lines from the Kdp/dup and it works quite well. It needs a slight adaptation in Simh and another in Tops10, but you have to rebuild the monitor. Reindert From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2021 17:34 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: [HECnet] ANF10 network Supratim and I (with some help and encouragement from Peter) have set up an ANF10 network between the TOPS10 nodes VENTI and TWONKY. If you haven't heard of it, ANF10 (short for "A Networking Feature" - yes, really!) predates DECnet (I'm pretty sure, although I'm sure there will be debate about that) and provides mostly the same functions - remote terminals, file transfer, etc. ANF10 also has remote RJEs with card readers, line printers and terminal concentrators. .net/anf [ANF10 network: connected to VENTI(20), located at VENTI(20), 2 nodes] Node VENTI (20) SIMH KS10 VENTI 7.04 NET 14-Nov-21 Node TWONKY (37) SIMH KS10 TWONKY 7.04NET 15-Nov-21 It's possible to run ANF10 and DECnet both, and that's what we're doing so TWONKY and VENTI are also available on HECnet. If anybody else has a TOPS10 system and would like to connect it would be nice to add a few more nodes, but there is a problem. TOPS10 supports a maximum of two KDP/DUP lines on the KS10, and you need one for DECnet and the other for ANF10. That means each system can talk to at most one other ANF10 system, which limits the network size to two nodes. Bummer. There are a few options available - * DEC made some DNxx PDP-11 boxes that supported multiple ANF10 connections. We could set up one of these as a router. * Somebody could hack TOPS10 to allow more than two DUP lines. * Somebody could write a pyDECnet type gizmo that speaks ANF10. And there might be others that I haven't thought of yet. Any ideas? Bob

3 years, 11 months

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