**** ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 10/18/21 11:19 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote: *** * Sorry, I?m somewhat lazy about booting it up when the host system is rebooted.? I don?t use VENTI that much. ** It sounds like I?m going to have to.? It?s a shame this STOPCODE was a halt and not just a debug one; at least the latter would have allowed the system to continue running. This also means I have to re-discover how to do a MONGEN and build.? There was a time, 30 years ago (actually, 40 years ago) when I could have done it from memory but now I?ll have to read the manual again

This is kind of a bit off topic.. But... So I have a lot of T10 7.02 based code for KI10 (using tops10 KI paging...). None of the PDP10 emulators do T10 KI paging.. 7.03 has lots of internal changes that did not work on KI, so back ported DECnet 4 etc from 7.03 to 7.02 (remember we had KI CPU's..) Was there 7.02 that used KL10/Tops20 paging? I don't have the dist tapes any longer? Or is there a PDP10 emulator that do KI Tops10 paging that would run my 7.02? --P So what's the actual T20 patch for NOV 2021 DECnet? Ps, tops10 does not "cross compile" between versions well (or at all..)

This is kind of a bit off topic.. But... So I have a lot of T10 7.02 based code for KI10 (using tops10 KI paging...). None of the PDP10 emulators do T10 KI paging.. 7.03 has lots of internal changes that did not work on KI, so back ported? DECnet 4 etc from 7.03 to 7.02 (remember we had KI CPU's..) Was there 7.02 that used KL10/Tops20 paging? I don't have the dist tapes any longer? Or is there a PDP10 emulator that do KI Tops10 paging that would run my 7.02? --P So what's the actual T20 patch for NOV 2021 DECnet? Ps, tops10 does not? "cross compile" between versions well (or at all..) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"tommytimesharing" <tommytimesharing at gmail.com> *To: *"hecnet" <hecnet at Update.UU.SE> *Sent: *Monday, October 18, 2021 3:00:00 PM *Subject: *Re: [HECnet] A2RTR downtime I wouldn't worry about it; I don't use VENTI all that much, either. ?/Except/ when I do?? Then I have to tell you that it has proven to be positively invaluable and I am very grateful for that! If this were critical, then I'd think about getting off my butt and putting up Tops-10 somewhere on one of my home systems.? But that would blow a lot of time; I haven't done a MONGEN since?well, I honestly can't remember?it's well over four decades and I never knew that part of it well to begin with.??? Come to think of it, I might have been doing a ONCE and not a MONGEN. Actually, having a guest account on other HECnet systems has also proved invaluable for chasing down arcane Tops-20 issues.? Thanks all!! I reached out to Lars Brinkhoff concerning my Tops-10 patch and he said he would distribute wherever it made "sense" to do so.? If I get any feedback, I will forward it.? Otherwise, let me know if there is any way I can provide assistance. Yes, it is a shame about the STOPCODE, but it would appear that the maintainer had some different ideas in the mid-1980's when this code was put in about what the usage of Tops-10 would be.? This comment is illustrative, the first sentence being key: _I doubt very much that the date itself has really gone past 2021_.? Probably someone smashed an AC or the routine to get the time from the monitor is returning junk. However, on November 9, 2021, it appears that many people will see this problem so prepare your SPR for that date. I think the problem is that Tops-10 didn't have the kind of die-hard fanatics supporting it (read, MRC) that Tops-10 did, so stuff like this was caught and fixed years ago.? D36COM has an edit date of 2001 for this, but since it is from Gorin, it's probably older. I continue to find Y2K things to clean up, these days mostly in the listings from various compilers and the remaining CUSP's that MRC didn't catch. Another thing I fix are internal time of day comparisons.? This is stored as an unsigned 36 bit fixed fraction having resolution to about ? of a second, 35 bits bringing you to 27-Sep-2217 20:00:00 EST US, the full 36 taking you to 7-Aug-2576 19:59:59 EST US.? Since the PDP-10 only has signed comparisons, all single comparison arithmetic will break in a mere 195 years.? Fixing that double word signed compares has given me some more breathing room.? In 554 years, I'm sure I'll have thought of something else? **** ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 10/18/21 11:19 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote: *** *Second* is VENTI; I had wanted to test something on it and it doesn't appear to be online. * Sorry, I?m somewhat lazy about booting it up when the host system is rebooted.? I don?t use VENTI that much. ** Had you had any interest in trying it? It sounds like I?m going to have to.? It?s a shame this STOPCODE was a halt and not just a debug one; at least the latter would have allowed the system to continue running. This also means I have to re-discover how to do a MONGEN and build.? There was a time, 30 years ago (actually, 40 years ago) when I could have done it from memory but now I?ll have to read the manual again

TOPS-10 paging was the same as the KL10 paging, which was implemented in hardware.

Tops10 is also "special" in the way that the user jobs VM handler is merged in to user space if needed.. -:)

------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 10/18/21 10:03 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: Umm.. TOPS-10 could always use the "KL10 paging". TOPS10 ran on the KL from day 1. The thing is, the KL had different microcode for TOPS-10 paging and TOPS-20 paging. The hardware didn't change. TOPS-10 paging was the same as the KL10 paging, which was implemented in hardware. TOPS-20 paging (or rather, TWENEX paging) was some variant of the BBN pager that was originally attached to a KA10 way back when. Bob

------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 10/19/21 7:07 PM, Peter Lothberg wrote: Fotnode, MRC gave me the BBN pager from Sails KA, and I later gave it to LCM, together with? 3 KA's and the BBN pager and the boards for the KA to connect to the pager. In the late 80's we also did build a ITS-pager for the KA. One of the KA's we brought up 6.03A on in 2019. Ralph Gorin pushed the "read-in" button for that event. The SC30/SC40 can do "KI-Style" Tops10 10 pager and "KL-Style" Tops 20 paging. The Toad is 'special' it has a lot of the KC10 fetures and don't do any "KI style" things and has 32MW of memory. -P ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"tommytimesharing" <tommytimesharing at gmail.com> *To: *"hecnet" <hecnet at Update.UU.SE> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 19, 2021 6:53:31 PM *Subject: *Re: [HECnet] A2RTR downtime I understand your point here and you are--of course--correct, yet one hesitates to term Tops-20 (TWENEX ) paging as being a variant of the BBN pager (or better TENEX). The BBN pager was /far/ more capable then the both the KI and KL pagers.? The KL pager was more capable than the KI, but this didn't put it quite in the same league as the BBN pager in terms of functionality. This is most visible in what RPACS% (Read PAge ACess) returns (or fails to return) and what SPACS% (Set PAge ACess) does (or fails to do).? On the KL, the only access bit you can set is whether the page is writable (this includes Copy-On-Write).? You cannot: 1. Clear all bits and thus set a page 'No Access'; it will still be there 2. Set a page Write-only 3. Set a page Execute-Only Case 1. is necessary for implementing guard pages which are (IMHO) one of the very most effective hardware based debugging tools around.? You really want "Explode on Reference" to catch stray reads AND stores.? If you whack the page, then all that happens the next time you touch it is it 're-materializes'. Case 2 is great for increasing the security of certain communications paradigms. For 1., you can solve it in two convoluted ways. First, you can hook the page creation interrupt and determine whether you are creating something you ought not.? You can also actually implement "Explode on Reference" by mapping 1+ the last page of a locked file.? If you then try to touch that page, it will fail because creating the page in memory involves creating it in the (locked) backing store.? I discovered this by mistake when looking for a guard page implementation for my FTP server. 2. Has no real solution, but paged mode IPCF% is probably good enough. 3. is partly solved by setting the file execute only, but this is highly restricted and does not work if a program is multi-process (I.E., forks).? Thus, I can not use it in the FTP server nor can it be used in the Tops-20 TELNET client. BBN repeatedly tried to get DEC to take their pager, but DEC never went for it.? I don't remember what was designed for the Jupiter or was implemented for the SC-40 or TOAD. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 10/18/21 10:03 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: T10 in the last incarnation(s) could use the KL10 paging Umm.. TOPS-10 could always use the "KL10 paging". TOPS10 ran on the KL from day 1. The thing is, the KL had different microcode for TOPS-10 paging and TOPS-20 paging. The hardware didn't change. TOPS-10 paging was the same as the KL10 paging, which was implemented in hardware. TOPS-20 paging (or rather, TWENEX paging) was some variant of the BBN pager that was originally attached to a KA10 way back when. Bob

------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 10/18/21 7:13 PM, Peter Lothberg wrote: This is kind of a bit off topic.. But... So I have a lot of T10 7.02 based code for KI10 (using tops10 KI paging...). None of the PDP10 emulators do T10 KI paging.. 7.03 has lots of internal changes that did not work on KI, so back ported? DECnet 4 etc from 7.03 to 7.02 (remember we had KI CPU's..) Was there 7.02 that used KL10/Tops20 paging? I don't have the dist tapes any longer? Or is there a PDP10 emulator that do KI Tops10 paging that would run my 7.02? --P So what's the actual T20 patch for NOV 2021 DECnet? Ps, tops10 does not? "cross compile" between versions well (or at all..) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"tommytimesharing" <tommytimesharing at gmail.com> *To: *"hecnet" <hecnet at Update.UU.SE> *Sent: *Monday, October 18, 2021 3:00:00 PM *Subject: *Re: [HECnet] A2RTR downtime I wouldn't worry about it; I don't use VENTI all that much, either.? ?/Except/ when I do?? Then I have to tell you that it has proven to be positively invaluable and I am very grateful for that! If this were critical, then I'd think about getting off my butt and putting up Tops-10 somewhere on one of my home systems.? But that would blow a lot of time; I haven't done a MONGEN since?well, I honestly can't remember?it's well over four decades and I never knew that part of it well to begin with.??? Come to think of it, I might have been doing a ONCE and not a MONGEN. Actually, having a guest account on other HECnet systems has also proved invaluable for chasing down arcane Tops-20 issues.? Thanks all!! I reached out to Lars Brinkhoff concerning my Tops-10 patch and he said he would distribute wherever it made "sense" to do so.? If I get any feedback, I will forward it.? Otherwise, let me know if there is any way I can provide assistance. Yes, it is a shame about the STOPCODE, but it would appear that the maintainer had some different ideas in the mid-1980's when this code was put in about what the usage of Tops-10 would be.? This comment is illustrative, the first sentence being key: _I doubt very much that the date itself has really gone past 2021_.? Probably someone smashed an AC or the routine to get the time from the monitor is returning junk. However, on November 9, 2021, it appears that many people will see this problem so prepare your SPR for that date. I think the problem is that Tops-10 didn't have the kind of die-hard fanatics supporting it (read, MRC) that Tops-10 did, so stuff like this was caught and fixed years ago.? D36COM has an edit date of 2001 for this, but since it is from Gorin, it's probably older. I continue to find Y2K things to clean up, these days mostly in the listings from various compilers and the remaining CUSP's that MRC didn't catch. Another thing I fix are internal time of day comparisons.? This is stored as an unsigned 36 bit fixed fraction having resolution to about ? of a second, 35 bits bringing you to 27-Sep-2217 20:00:00 EST US, the full 36 taking you to 7-Aug-2576 19:59:59 EST US.? Since the PDP-10 only has signed comparisons, all single comparison arithmetic will break in a mere 195 years.? Fixing that double word signed compares has given me some more breathing room.? In 554 years, I'm sure I'll have thought of something else? **** ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 10/18/21 11:19 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote: *** *Second* is VENTI; I had wanted to test something on it and it doesn't appear to be online. * ? Sorry, I?m somewhat lazy about booting it up when the host system is rebooted.? I don?t use VENTI that much. ** Had you had any interest in trying it? ? It sounds like I?m going to have to.? It?s a shame this STOPCODE was a halt and not just a debug one; at least the latter would have allowed the system to continue running. ? This also means I have to re-discover how to do a MONGEN and build.? There was a time, 30 years ago (actually, 40 years ago) when I could have done it from memory but now I?ll have to read the manual again

Fourth (and final) concerns RAID in an indirect way. My Tops-20 systems are backed up on a quarterly basis and those backups compressed and moved to alternate storage. However, I have never backed up any of the Ubuntu systems and, although I am running SSD media, some of this is quite old and I'm starting to feel uncomfortable out it. Were you aware of any winning backup solutions? I can restore Tops-20 to bare metal, but I really don't remember how to do this for Unix (although I did know it for Ultrix at one point). So I starting looking. D?j? Dup looks like it won't quite do what I need, but since it uses duplicity, I started looking at that. Remember, even a RAID is no substitute for backup. This was probably more true in the days where a hardware RAID controller error introduced a single point of failure; it may still be true for a software RAID.

On Oct 17, 2021, at 12:53 PM, Thomas DeBellis <tommytimesharing at gmail.com <mailto:tommytimesharing at gmail.com>> wrote: Take a look at Veeam, specifically the ?Community Edition?. ?You should also be able to take a look at the "Veeam Agent for Linux?, as you can simply run it on your Linux box, and point it at an NFS share or USB disk. ?The community edition of Veeam Backup and Recovery allows you to backup 10 Physical or Virtual systems for free. ?It?s only downside is that it needs to run on Windows. I do nightly Veeam backups of all the VMware VM?s that run my virtual DEC systems. ?This has saved me in at least one case. Bare metal Veeam restores are an option, since you asked about ?Bare Metal?, but that?s something I?ve not tested. Zane

------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 10/19/21 9:06 AM, David Moylan wrote: I?ll also push a vote for Veeam Community Edition. I run a VMware ESXi box which contains a mix of windows and linux VM?s (primarily linux). I use Veeam to backup all the VM?s to a NAS. As mentioned, you?ll need to run this up on a Windows server. I use Veeam in my production life as well as run a Veeam cloud backup server for my clients offsite copies. I?ve been using this for many years and it?s one of the best VM backup products on the market. For my office backup we put the Veeam backups on a Synology NAS and run NAS to NAS replica between my office to another NAS at a co-workers house. Cheers, Wiz!! *From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> *On Behalf Of *Brian Hechinger *Sent:* Tuesday, 19 October 2021 10:46 PM *To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE *Subject:* Re: [HECnet] A2RTR downtime A bit late to this party, but if you're looking for an offsite backup service I've been using Jotta Cloud and so far it's pretty nice. Natively supports linux. Not too expensive either. I'm paying ?7.99/month for unlimited storage. -brian > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > On 18/10/21 16:53, Zane Healy wrote: > > Take a look at Veeam, specifically the ?Community Edition?. ?You > should also be able to take a look at the "Veeam Agent for Linux?, as > you can simply run it on your Linux box, and point it at an NFS share > or USB disk. ?The community edition of Veeam Backup and Recovery > allows you to backup 10 Physical or Virtual systems for free. ?It?s > only downside is that it needs to run on Windows. > > I do nightly Veeam backups of all the VMware VM?s that run my virtual > DEC systems. ?This has saved me in at least one case. > > Bare metal Veeam restores are an option, since you asked about ?Bare > Metal?, but that?s something I?ve not tested. > > Zane >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> On Oct 17, 2021, at 12:53 PM, Thomas DeBellis >> <tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> *Fourth*(and final) concerns RAID in an indirect way.? My Tops-20 >> systems are backed up on a quarterly basis and those backups >> compressed and moved to alternate storage.? However, I have never >> backed up any of the Ubuntu systems and, although I am running SSD >> media, some of this is quite old and I'm starting to feel >> uncomfortable out it. >> >> Were you aware of any winning backup solutions?? I can restore >> Tops-20 to bare metal, but I really don't remember how to do this >> for Unix (although I did know it for Ultrix at one point).? So I >> starting looking.? D?j? Dup looks like it won't quite do what I >> need, but since it uses duplicity, I started looking at that. >> >> Remember, even a RAID is no substitute for backup.? This was >> probably more true in the days where a hardware RAID controller >> error introduced a single point of failure; it may still be true for >> a software RAID.

------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 10/19/21 7:46 AM, Brian Hechinger wrote: A bit late to this party, but if you're looking for an offsite backup service I've been using Jotta Cloud and so far it's pretty nice. Natively supports linux. Not too expensive either. I'm paying ?7.99/month for unlimited storage. -brian > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > On 18/10/21 16:53, Zane Healy wrote: > > Take a look at Veeam, specifically the ?Community Edition?. ?You > should also be able to take a look at the "Veeam Agent for Linux?, as > you can simply run it on your Linux box, and point it at an NFS share > or USB disk. ?The community edition of Veeam Backup and Recovery > allows you to backup 10 Physical or Virtual systems for free. ?It?s > only downside is that it needs to run on Windows. > > I do nightly Veeam backups of all the VMware VM?s that run my virtual > DEC systems. ?This has saved me in at least one case. > > Bare metal Veeam restores are an option, since you asked about ?Bare > Metal?, but that?s something I?ve not tested. > > Zane >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> On Oct 17, 2021, at 12:53 PM, Thomas DeBellis >> <tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> *Fourth*(and final) concerns RAID in an indirect way.? My Tops-20 >> systems are backed up on a quarterly basis and those backups >> compressed and moved to alternate storage.? However, I have never >> backed up any of the Ubuntu systems and, although I am running SSD >> media, some of this is quite old and I'm starting to feel >> uncomfortable out it. >> >> Were you aware of any winning backup solutions?? I can restore >> Tops-20 to bare metal, but I really don't remember how to do this >> for Unix (although I did know it for Ultrix at one point).? So I >> starting looking.? D?j? Dup looks like it won't quite do what I >> need, but since it uses duplicity, I started looking at that. >> >> Remember, even a RAID is no substitute for backup.? This was >> probably more true in the days where a hardware RAID controller >> error introduced a single point of failure; it may still be true for >> a software RAID.

------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 10/18/21 11:53 AM, Zane Healy wrote: Take a look at Veeam, specifically the ?Community Edition?. ?You should also be able to take a look at the "Veeam Agent for Linux?, as you can simply run it on your Linux box, and point it at an NFS share or USB disk. ?The community edition of Veeam Backup and Recovery allows you to backup 10 Physical or Virtual systems for free. ?It?s only downside is that it needs to run on Windows. I do nightly Veeam backups of all the VMware VM?s that run my virtual DEC systems. ?This has saved me in at least one case. Bare metal Veeam restores are an option, since you asked about ?Bare Metal?, but that?s something I?ve not tested. Zane > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > On Oct 17, 2021, at 12:53 PM, Thomas DeBellis > <tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote: > > *Fourth*(and final) concerns RAID in an indirect way.? My Tops-20 > systems are backed up on a quarterly basis and those backups > compressed and moved to alternate storage.? However, I have never > backed up any of the Ubuntu systems and, although I am running SSD > media, some of this is quite old and I'm starting to feel > uncomfortable out it. > > Were you aware of any winning backup solutions?? I can restore > Tops-20 to bare metal, but I really don't remember how to do this for > Unix (although I did know it for Ultrix at one point).? So I starting > looking.? D?j? Dup looks like it won't quite do what I need, but > since it uses duplicity, I started looking at that. > > Remember, even a RAID is no substitute for backup.? This was probably > more true in the days where a hardware RAID controller error > introduced a single point of failure; it may still be true for a > software RAID.

Good luck with the dasd migration Bob, I have used RAID with Centos but I used an IBM ServeRaid controller that was supported by Centos so the effort required no work on my part other than assembling the necessary parts and updating the controller firmware. Cheers, John > On 18/10/2021, at 05:03, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote: > > ? > > ? A2RTR will be down tomorrow (Monday) for a couple of hours sometime > between 9AM PDT and 3PM. It?s not my doing ? PG&E is replacing a > transformer and the power will be off.? I have battery backup for > some of my equipment, but not A2RTR.? Sorry. > > ? It?s also going to have to go down sometime again, maybe next > weekend, so I can replace a disk drive that?s failing.? I bought two > identical drives and plan to set up a RAID 1 array this time.? If > anybody has set up a software RAID on Ubuntu, using the md driver and > mdadm, for the system drive and you have advice, let me know.? > Espcially if you managed to make both of the drives bootable. > > > Bob >