4 Nov
2021
4 Nov
'21
4:59 a.m.
I have been working with Bob recently to bring the fix up on VENTI:: to
prevent the imminent COM911 BUGHLT. We've both been hampered by some
domestic duties and what I refuse to call "forgetfulness" in the
particulars of generating a Tops-10 monitor.? Neither one of us has done
it in ...'awhile'...
It turns out that a MONGEN is unnecessary because the system
configuration doesn't need to change.? You do need to rebuild
TOPS10.REL, however.? Fortunately, with a small hack, the fix can be
directly patched the monitor with FILDDT. You want to modify two
instructions at NMXTIM+13 from:
NMXTIM+12/?? IDIV T3,TICSEC
*NMXTIM+13/?? SKIPL T2**
**NMXTIM+14/?? TDNE T1,COMCAW+10*
NMXTIM+15/?? XCT COM911
?To:
NMXTIM+12/?? IDIV T3,TICSEC *NMXTIM+13/?? MOVMS T2****NMXTIM+14/??
TDZA T1,COMCAW+10* NMXTIM+15/?? XCT COM911
So doing that will keep you from crashing.? You can probably even
deposit them right into the running monitor, if you're careful enough
(one hesitates to say, 'toggle'...)
4 Nov
4 Nov
4:07 p.m.
You do need to rebuild TOPS10.REL, however.
The slightly more detailed instructions are 1) apply Thomas? patch to D36COM.MAC, 2)
assemble same, 3) replace D36COM in TOPS10.REL (either the KS or KL version, or both), and
4) relink your monitor. There are scripts (assuming you?re following the standard file
layout) in [10,7,MON,CTLS] for rebuilding TOPS10.REL and maybe even for replacing a single
module, but they?re a bit cryptic. They weren?t big on comments in those days?
Bob
4:44 p.m.
I have been working with Bob recently to bring the fix
up on VENTI:: to
prevent the imminent COM911 BUGHLT. We've both been hampered by some domestic
duties and what I refuse to call "forgetfulness" in the particulars of
generating a Tops-10 monitor.? Neither one of us has done it in ...'awhile'...
Some years ago I wrote a "recipe" to do this kind of thing. I do not remember
if I posted it here or on another mailing list, so here it is just in case. I
wrote it to document how to update CLOCK1.MAC to enable the idling mechanism
of KLH10, but I guess that it would work the same for DECnet fixes.
Hope this helps, :)
G.
-----
1. First of all make sure you have a complete set of monitor sources in
[10,7,MON]. If you followed either the Software Installation Guide or some
online tutorial you should be okay. In particular make sure that you have
the following:
[10,7,MON]S.MAC
[10,7,MON]DEVPRM.MAC
[10,7,MON]DTEPRM.MAC
[10,7,MON]NETPRM.MAC
[10,7,MON]D36PAR.MAC
[10,7,MON]COMMON.MAC
[10,7,MON]COMDEV.MAC
[10,7,MON]COMMOD.MAC
[10,7,MON]CLOCK1.MAC
2. Also make sure you have REL:TOPS10.REL and [10,7,MON]MONGEN.EXE
3. Make a backup copy of the original TOPS10.REL. I like to preserve the
timestamp of original files, therefore I do a rename followed by a copy of
the renamed file (I have adopted .DEC as the extension for original files)
.RENAME REL:TOPS10.DEC=REL:TOPS10.REL
.COPY REL:TOPS10.REL=REL:TOPS10.DEC (destination=source)
4. Change your default to [10,7,MON]
.R SETSRC
*CP [10,7,MON]
*^Z
5. Make a backup copy of CLOCK1.MAC as you did for TOPS10.REL
6. Open CLOCK1.MAC with any editor of your choice (SOS, EDIT, etc.) and
modify it as follows:
Before: SOJG 6,1 ;AC1 - DON'T CAUSE EXCESSIVE MEMORY INTERFERENCE
After: CONO 740,1 ;AC1 - DON'T CAUSE EXCESSIVE MEMORY INTERFERENCE
(I have removed some white space to fit either line in 78 characters)
The address in the above CONO instruction must match the address of the
idler in the emulator configuration. Several online tutorials suggest 700
but for some reason 740 should be a safer choice (I forgot the specifics,
nonetheless some post in alt.sys.pdp10 may have some explanation)
7. Compile CLOCK1.MAC (it will create CLOCK1.REL)
.COMPIL/COMPIL CLOCK1
8. Replace the CLOCK1 module from CLOCK1.REL in TOPS10.REL
.R MAKLIB
*REL:TOPS10.REL=REL:TOPS10.REL/MASTER:CLOCK1,DSK:CLOCK1.REL/REPLACE:CLOCK1
*REL:TOPS10.REL=REL:TOPS10.REL/INDEX
*^Z
(Indexing is optional but will speed up relinks)
9. Run the monitor configuration utility. It will ask lots of questions,
note that most defaults will be okay. I have attached to this message a
sample record of a generation of mine. Obviously some parameters such as the
system name and address will have to be customized. Values in the decimal
and octal "symbol,value" sections are specific for my installation and could
be safely skipped. If you answer YES to the first question the utility will
generate a MONGEN.MIC file with a record of your input for later reference:
.R MONGEN
Write MONGEN.MIC (YES,NO) : YES
[...]
The latest Software installation Guide contains a guide of the whole
procedure (chapter 9). You can find it at the following address:
http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/tops10v704_docc/01/10,7/docupd/sig.mem.html
10. With any editor of your choice create a MONBLD.MIC procedure file
containing the following lines:
.DAYTIME
.COMPILE/COMPILE F,S
.COMPILE/COMPILE DEVPRM,DTEPRM,NETPRM,D36PAR
.COMPILE/COMPILE SYSCNF+<COMMON,COMDEV,COMMOD>
.R LINK
*SYSTEM/SAVE/NOINITIAL/HASH:13K = /LOCALS -
*COMMON,COMDEV,COMMOD,REL:TOPS10/SEARCH-
*/PATCH:200/COUNTERS/GO
.DIRECT/DETAIL SYSTEM.EXE
.DAYTIME
Initial dots and asterisks are required. It's important that a space be
present between /LOCALS and the following hyphen or it will not work.
11. Execute the relink procedure you created in the previous step:
.DO MONBLD
It will take from a few seconds to a few minutes and will create a new
SYSTEM.EXE monitor file in the current directory.
12. Copy the new monitor to the system directory giving it some unique name:
.COPY SYS:MYMON.EXE=DSK:SYSTEM.EXE
13. Reboot your system and type the name of your new monitor at the BOOT>
prompt. Unless you have some strange configuration it should be enough for
it to find it, otherwise type its full path:
BOOT>MYMON
14. If everything works as intended you could either copy or rename your new
monitor as SYS:SYSTEM.EXE so that it would be loaded by default during boot
by just pressing the return key.
Whenever you will need a new monitor it will be enough to just change your
default to [10,7,MON] and then run MONGEN.MIC and MONBLD.MIC. In fact the
output of MONGEN.EXE is a runnable MIC file, therefore for minor tweaks it
will be enough to edit MONGEN.MIC and then run it with DO instead of going
through a whole new interactive MONGEN.EXE dialogue.
5:03 p.m.
.R MAKLIB
*REL:TOPS10.REL=REL:TOPS10.REL/MASTER:CLOCK1,DSK:CLOCK1.REL/REPLACE:CLOCK1
*REL:TOPS10.REL=REL:TOPS10.REL/INDEX
*^Z
Thanks, Gerry! This is really handy (and this is the part I couldn't
remember/figure out last night!)...
9. Run the monitor configuration utility.
FWIW, you don't actually need to do a MONGEN in this case, assuming you've
previously done one and you're not changing any selections. Just skip straight to
relinking...
12. Copy the new monitor to the system directory giving
it some unique name:
.COPY SYS:MYMON.EXE=DSK:SYSTEM.EXE
This works fine, however the other common option is to copy your new monitor to [1,5].
On TOPS-10, [1,5] is NEW:, [1,4] is SYS: and [1,3] is OLD:. At the BOOT> prompt you
can simply type "[1,5]" (assuming you used the name SYSTEM.EXE) and BOOTS will
load the new one. If all is well, then you rename the [1,4]SYSTEM.EXE to [1,3], and then
[1,5]SYSTEM.EXE to [1,4]. In the future BOOTS will load the one from [1,4] by default,
and if you ever find that you need to go back then you can tell BOOTS "[1,3]"
and it'll load the old one.
Thanks again!
Bob
5 Nov
5 Nov
11:59 a.m.
FWIW, you don't actually need to do a MONGEN in
this case, assuming you've previously done one and you're not changing any
selections. Just skip straight to relinking...
Yup! Those instructions were originally written for someone doing a new
installation, hence the need to run a MONGEN too as they had to setup several
parameters. For example, I have used it to configure DECnet and LAT, change
the default buffer size and hello timer, and so on... :)
12. Copy the
new monitor to the system directory giving it some unique name:
.COPY SYS:MYMON.EXE=DSK:SYSTEM.EXE
This works fine, however the other common option is to copy your new monitor to [1,5].
On TOPS-10, [1,5] is NEW:, [1,4] is SYS: and [1,3] is OLD:. At the BOOT> prompt you
can simply type "[1,5]" (assuming you used the name SYSTEM.EXE) and BOOTS will
load the new one. If all is well, then you rename the [1,4]SYSTEM.EXE to [1,3], and then
[1,5]SYSTEM.EXE to [1,4]. In the future BOOTS will load the one from [1,4] by default,
and if you ever find that you need to go back then you can tell BOOTS "[1,3]"
and it'll load the old one.
7:21 p.m.
Tops-20 gives you essentially the same functionality being able to
launch the monitor of your choice, having (I believe) the similar
restriction that the monitor in question has to be on a locally attached
disk (I.E., no CFS).
Personally, I prefer Tops-10's syntax format because I have to type less
at BOOT time.? Historically, a system being out of operation was a time
of extremely high pressure to get it back online (data center phones
would glow white hot...)
And then there was the sneezing which could fat key you. Although we had
four 20's in one room, we had some 55 tons of glycol chiller plus
environmental HVAC; Translation: the machine room was /arctic/.?
Pre-global warming.
So the less you type, the better...
One problem I have (if you want to call it that) is forgetting that I've
booted a different monitor.? So my 'production' 20 (TOMMYT) has been up
some 7,021 hours whilst the development machine (VENTI2) is currently at
a relative paltry 3,279 hours.
So in certain cases, I've gone and completely forgotten what the heck
I've been running...? Consequently, on a reboot, the previous monitor
comes up and I'm clueless, the result being I start asking myself, "Gee,
why am I seeing this failure mode?? I wonder what I missed when I fixed
this?"
As far as I can remember, the only way you can tell what monitor you're
running is by updating the version, typically the edit level, so that
INITIA, SYSTAT or INFO MON can see it.? I only remember to do that when
everything is debugged.? Most of the time...
One assumes that Bob will bump the edit number sometime after the 9^th .
On 11/5/21 6:59 AM, G. wrote:
Indeed, both solutions work perfectly. :)
Personally I find it more practical to type some monitor name rather than
brackets because I'm not a native English speaker hence my keyboard is
mapped
differently. Now that I think of it, maybe having several monitors with
different "speaking" names may come handy in some experimental
situations...
Thanks for your thanks, :)
G.
?? FWIW, you
don't actually need to do a MONGEN in this case,
assuming you've previously done one and you're not changing any
selections.? Just skip straight to relinking...
Yup! Those instructions were originally written for someone doing a new
installation, hence the need to run a MONGEN too as they had to setup
several
parameters. For example, I have used it to configure DECnet and LAT,
change
the default buffer size and hello timer, and so on... :)
12. Copy
the new monitor to the system directory giving it some
unique name:
???? .COPY SYS:MYMON.EXE=DSK:SYSTEM.EXE
?? This works fine, however the other common option is to copy your
new monitor to [1,5].? On TOPS-10, [1,5] is NEW:, [1,4] is SYS: and
[1,3] is OLD:.? At the BOOT> prompt you can simply type "[1,5]"
(assuming you used the name SYSTEM.EXE) and BOOTS will load the new
one.? If all is well, then you rename the [1,4]SYSTEM.EXE to [1,3],
and then [1,5]SYSTEM.EXE to [1,4].? In the future BOOTS will load the
one from [1,4] by default, and if you ever find that you need to go
back then you can tell BOOTS "[1,3]" and it'll load the old one.
6 Nov
6 Nov
12:23 a.m.
I have been finding myself getting curious about the COM911 patch.? It's
received little to no response on alt.sys.pdp10, which is perhaps
unsurprising as Tops-10 (sadly) never had an officially DEC sanctioned
IP stack.
On HECnet, there are 15 registered Tops-10 systems, viz: ATLE (1.605),
AURORA (1.606), BITXT1 (7.80), EYN??? (18.105), FREJ (1.608), LOKE??
(1.607), NOMAD? (1.610), NYE??? (18.103), PANDA (35.629), TIPSY?
(1.604), TOPSY? (1.601), TWONKY (31.37), VENTI (2.20), YMER?? (1.609)
and MARLEY (9.10).
Unless you happen to be a lucky user on VENTI, you are going to *crash*
in about four days, at which point, you can do a patch or set the wrong
date.
That would bother the /HEC/ out of me...? So, I haven't heard a peep;
what are you all doing, anyhow?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 11/5/21 2:21 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
Tops-20 gives you essentially the same functionality being able to
launch the monitor of your choice, having (I believe) the similar
restriction that the monitor in question has to be on a locally
attached disk (I.E., no CFS).
Personally, I prefer Tops-10's syntax format because I have to type
less at BOOT time.? Historically, a system being out of operation was
a time of extremely high pressure to get it back online (data center
phones would glow white hot...)
And then there was the sneezing which could fat key you. Although we
had four 20's in one room, we had some 55 tons of glycol chiller plus
environmental HVAC; Translation: the machine room was /arctic/.?
Pre-global warming.
So the less you type, the better...
One problem I have (if you want to call it that) is forgetting that
I've booted a different monitor.? So my 'production' 20 (TOMMYT) has
been up some 7,021 hours whilst the development machine (VENTI2) is
currently at a relative paltry 3,279 hours.
So in certain cases, I've gone and completely forgotten what the heck
I've been running...? Consequently, on a reboot, the previous monitor
comes up and I'm clueless, the result being I start asking myself,
"Gee, why am I seeing this failure mode?? I wonder what I missed when
I fixed this?"
As far as I can remember, the only way you can tell what monitor
you're running is by updating the version, typically the edit level,
so that INITIA, SYSTAT or INFO MON can see it.? I only remember to do
that when everything is debugged.? Most of the time...
One assumes that Bob will bump the edit number sometime after the 9^th .
On 11/5/21 6:59 AM, G. wrote:
>> ?? FWIW, you don't actually need to do a MONGEN in this case,
>> assuming you've previously done one and you're not changing any
>> selections.? Just skip straight to relinking...
>
> Yup! Those instructions were originally written for someone doing a new
> installation, hence the need to run a MONGEN too as they had to setup
> several
> parameters. For example, I have used it to configure DECnet and LAT,
> change
> the default buffer size and hello timer, and so on... :)
>
>>> 12. Copy the new monitor to the system directory giving it some
>>> unique name:
>>>
>>> ???? .COPY SYS:MYMON.EXE=DSK:SYSTEM.EXE
>>
>> ?? This works fine, however the other common option is to copy your
>> new monitor to [1,5].? On TOPS-10, [1,5] is NEW:, [1,4] is SYS: and
>> [1,3] is OLD:.? At the BOOT> prompt you can simply type "[1,5]"
>> (assuming you used the name SYSTEM.EXE) and BOOTS will load the new
>> one.? If all is well, then you rename the [1,4]SYSTEM.EXE to [1,3],
>> and then [1,5]SYSTEM.EXE to [1,4].? In the future BOOTS will load
>> the one from [1,4] by default, and if you ever find that you need to
>> go back then you can tell BOOTS "[1,3]" and it'll load the old
one.
>
> Indeed, both solutions work perfectly. :)
>
> Personally I find it more practical to type some monitor name rather
> than
> brackets because I'm not a native English speaker hence my keyboard
> is mapped
> differently. Now that I think of it, maybe having several monitors with
> different "speaking" names may come handy in some experimental
> situations...
>
> Thanks for your thanks, :)
> G.
>
>
12:51 a.m.
Our best Tops10 systems hacker in Stockholm, Johnny Ericsson who I think was responsible
for
all TOPS10 systems in Area 1 died from a aneurysm in the brain some years ago, that might
explain
why those nodes are down.
-P
From: "bob" <bob at jfcl.com>
To: "hecnet" <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Sent: Friday, November 5, 2021 7:44:32 PM
Subject: RE: [HECnet] TOPS-10 D-Day, DECnet failure on November 9th is less than
six days away
> what are you all doing, anyhow?
I suspect nobody actually uses their TOPS-10 machines
much. Of those on your
HECnet list, how many are actually running now?
Bob
9:33 a.m.
Sadly that is the case. Johnny Eriksson dies almost two years ago now,
and he was really the one that I knew that carried the TOPS-10 torch. He
was working on lots of things in and around TOPS-10. Not seeing anyone
else continuing that work. :-(
I should remove his nodes from the database, but I'm feeling nostalgic
every time I think about it, and avoid getting it done.
I guess I'm trying to avoid publicly acknowledging his death.
But none of those nodes will be coming back, I believe.
Johnny (the other one)
On 2021-11-06 00:51, Peter Lothberg wrote:
Our best Tops10 systems hacker in Stockholm, Johnny
Ericsson who I think
was responsible for
all TOPS10 systems in Area 1 died from a aneurysm in the brain some
years ago, that might explain
why those nodes are down.
-P
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"bob" <bob at jfcl.com>
*To: *"hecnet" <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
*Sent: *Friday, November 5, 2021 7:44:32 PM
*Subject: *RE: [HECnet] TOPS-10 D-Day, DECnet failure on November
9th is less than six days away
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
what are you all doing, anyhow?
? I suspect nobody actually uses their TOPS-10 machines much.? Of
those on your HECnet list, how many are actually running now?
Bob
12:54 a.m.
$ mc ncp tell twonky show exec
%NCP-F-CONNEC, unable to connect to listener
-SYSTEM-F-REMRSRC, insufficient system resources at remote node
How about sending me patched disk image set to 31.37 (TWONKY)? I am not
entirely joking ... I screwed it up so bad it hardly stays up
On 11/5/21 7:44 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
--
what are you all doing, anyhow?
I suspect nobody actually uses their TOPS-10 machines much.? Of those
on your HECnet list, how many are actually running now?
Bob
12:59 a.m.
I would hate to say "none", but I fear this is really close enough to
the truth as makes no difference...? It seems that only the VMS people
are online and Johnny, who keeps RSX up.
Anytime I've checked a Tops-10 system, I've been unable to connect, but
I don't do that a lot.
It's little different with Tops-20 systems, although a few are online
(SOL:: is a notable example) I used to use Supratim's TWENEX:: (31.29)
machine to try to do regression tests, but this was fruitless.? His host
table is years out of date, so I only show up as a number which can not
be entered as a node name.? And he has bugs and things I fixed aeons ago.
He never responds to any query and now TWENEX:: is seldom up.? Well, let
me rephrase that, it hasn't been up when I've checked, but I stopped
doing that and gave up on him.
That's what I'm building TERZO:: for, regression tests.
I'll bet 28NH:: has some of that information; it looks like it does.
On 11/5/21 7:44 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
what are you all doing, anyhow?
I suspect nobody actually uses their TOPS-10 machines much.? Of those
on your HECnet list, how many are actually running now?
Bob
1:03 a.m.
On 11/5/21 7:59 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
I would hate to say "none", but I fear this
is really close enough to
the truth as makes no difference...? It seems that only the VMS people
are online and Johnny, who keeps RSX up.
We have many PDP-11 and VAX systems at LSSM, which are all online on
HECnet whenever they're up, usually during visitor demos and on museum
work days. We will be in a better position to have some of them
running, as well as some new hardware that's expected to come in soon,
over this winter.
None of these are emulated.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
9:37 a.m.
There are actually a number of RSX systems up and running, even though I
might be the only one who is doing a lot of development on one.
There are usually a couple of RSTS/E systems online as well. A few more
Tops-20 systems, even though they are not many either.
A lot of VMS, obviously, but not that much noise from that crowd. :-)
A few Ultrix machine. A few very random, odd things...
And then more and more PyDECnet.
Johnny
On 2021-11-06 00:59, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
I would hate to say "none", but I fear this
is really close enough to
the truth as makes no difference...? It seems that only the VMS people
are online and Johnny, who keeps RSX up.
Anytime I've checked a Tops-10 system, I've been unable to connect, but
I don't do that a lot.
It's little different with Tops-20 systems, although a few are online
(SOL:: is a notable example) I used to use Supratim's TWENEX:: (31.29)
machine to try to do regression tests, but this was fruitless.? His host
table is years out of date, so I only show up as a number which can not
be entered as a node name.? And he has bugs and things I fixed aeons ago.
He never responds to any query and now TWENEX:: is seldom up.? Well, let
me rephrase that, it hasn't been up when I've checked, but I stopped
doing that and gave up on him.
That's what I'm building TERZO:: for, regression tests.
I'll bet 28NH:: has some of that information; it looks like it does.
On 11/5/21 7:44 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
>
> > what are you all doing, anyhow?
>
> I suspect nobody actually uses their TOPS-10 machines much.? Of those
> on your HECnet list, how many are actually running now?
>
> Bob
>
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
9:56 a.m.
Well I have 35-40 DECnet systems up and running almost all the time - a mix of VMS, RSX,
RSTS, U*IX, TOPS and I would love to get them connected up to HECnet ...
I did try about a year ago, but we didn't manage to move things forward due to
pressures of work etc...
Chris
declab.uk
?On 06/11/2021, 08:37, "Johnny Billquist" <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE on
behalf of bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
There are actually a number of RSX systems up and running, even though I
might be the only one who is doing a lot of development on one.
There are usually a couple of RSTS/E systems online as well. A few more
Tops-20 systems, even though they are not many either.
A lot of VMS, obviously, but not that much noise from that crowd. :-)
A few Ultrix machine. A few very random, odd things...
And then more and more PyDECnet.
Johnny
On 2021-11-06 00:59, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
I would hate to say "none", but I fear this
is really close enough to
the truth as makes no difference... It seems that only the VMS people
are online and Johnny, who keeps RSX up.
Anytime I've checked a Tops-10 system, I've been unable to connect, but
I don't do that a lot.
It's little different with Tops-20 systems, although a few are online
(SOL:: is a notable example) I used to use Supratim's TWENEX:: (31.29)
machine to try to do regression tests, but this was fruitless. His host
table is years out of date, so I only show up as a number which can not
be entered as a node name. And he has bugs and things I fixed aeons ago.
He never responds to any query and now TWENEX:: is seldom up. Well, let
me rephrase that, it hasn't been up when I've checked, but I stopped
doing that and gave up on him.
That's what I'm building TERZO:: for, regression tests.
I'll bet 28NH:: has some of that information; it looks like it does.
On 11/5/21 7:44 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
>
> > what are you all doing, anyhow?
>
> I suspect nobody actually uses their TOPS-10 machines much. Of those
> on your HECnet list, how many are actually running now?
>
> Bob
>
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
12:11 p.m.
Hey Guys,
I wouldn't give up on TOPS-10 just yet. I've recently been playing around with it
quite a lot. It was the first real OS I used back in my school days (and I just retired so
it was a looong time ago).
I have a fully loaded TOPS-10 7.04 KL system running here and it has DECNet installed.
I'm also building one of Rob Doyle's FPGA KS10 machines.
I'm currently trying to get LAT working on TOPS-10. It's definitely borked in the
release I have but there's probably a patch for it. If anyone has it working, I'd
be grateful for information.
I have several real VAXes, a PDP11/83 and an HP Integrity running most of the time. They
can talk to HECNet but they aren't in the node database yet. I'll be sending their
details to Johnny in the near future.
I'm grateful to the guys who posted the patch for the Nov 9th bug - I'll be trying
it today.
Once the machines are registered, I'll drop a line here. All are welcome to come and
play ?
Trev.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> On Behalf Of Chris
Berry
Sent: 06 November 2021 08:57
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] TOPS-10 D-Day, DECnet failure on November 9th is less than six days
away
Well I have 35-40 DECnet systems up and running almost all the time - a mix of VMS, RSX,
RSTS, U*IX, TOPS and I would love to get them connected up to HECnet ...
I did try about a year ago, but we didn't manage to move things forward due to
pressures of work etc...
Chris
declab.uk
?On 06/11/2021, 08:37, "Johnny Billquist" <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE on
behalf of bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
There are actually a number of RSX systems up and running, even though I
might be the only one who is doing a lot of development on one.
There are usually a couple of RSTS/E systems online as well. A few more
Tops-20 systems, even though they are not many either.
A lot of VMS, obviously, but not that much noise from that crowd. :-)
A few Ultrix machine. A few very random, odd things...
And then more and more PyDECnet.
Johnny
On 2021-11-06 00:59, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
I would hate to say "none", but I fear this
is really close enough to
the truth as makes no difference... It seems that only the VMS people
are online and Johnny, who keeps RSX up.
Anytime I've checked a Tops-10 system, I've been unable to connect, but
I don't do that a lot.
It's little different with Tops-20 systems, although a few are online
(SOL:: is a notable example) I used to use Supratim's TWENEX:: (31.29)
machine to try to do regression tests, but this was fruitless. His host
table is years out of date, so I only show up as a number which can not
be entered as a node name. And he has bugs and things I fixed aeons ago.
He never responds to any query and now TWENEX:: is seldom up. Well, let
me rephrase that, it hasn't been up when I've checked, but I stopped
doing that and gave up on him.
That's what I'm building TERZO:: for, regression tests.
I'll bet 28NH:: has some of that information; it looks like it does.
On 11/5/21 7:44 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
>
> > what are you all doing, anyhow?
>
> I suspect nobody actually uses their TOPS-10 machines much. Of those
> on your HECnet list, how many are actually running now?
>
> Bob
>
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
7 Nov
7 Nov
4:10 a.m.
On Nov 6, 2021, at 1:37 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
A lot of VMS, obviously, but not that much noise from that crowd. :-)
I wish we made more noise. :)
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
6 a.m.
On Nov 6, 2021, at 8:21 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire
at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 11/6/21 11:10 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
[/me heads to LSSM and fires up the VAX-11/780]
[/me drools jealously]
:)
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
A lot of
VMS, obviously, but not that much noise from that crowd. :-)
I wish we made more
noise. :)
11:27 a.m.
On 2021-11-07 06:00, Mark J. Blair wrote:
/me looks at the 8650 and thinks "today?". :-)
Anyway, Magica was up and running for about 6h yesterday. A real 11/70
might outnoise an 11/780. :-D
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Nov 6, 2021, at 8:21 PM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 11/6/21 11:10 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
[/me heads to LSSM and fires up the VAX-11/780]
[/me drools jealously]
:) A lot of
VMS, obviously, but not that much noise from that crowd. :-)
I wish we made more
noise. :)
4:01 p.m.
On 11/7/21 5:27 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
[/me drools jealously]
:)
/me looks at the 8650 and thinks "today?". :-)
"Doooo eet, mang!"
> A lot of
VMS, obviously, but not that much noise from that crowd. :-)
I wish we made more noise. :)
? [/me heads to LSSM and fires up the VAX-11/780] Anyway, Magica was up and running for about 6h
yesterday. A real 11/70
might outnoise an 11/780. :-D
We have a PDP-11/70 and a VAX-11/780 in adjacent rows at the museum.
The 11/780 is considerably louder. I will measure this for quantitative
numbers the next time I'm over there.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
4:11 p.m.
On Nov 7, 2021, at 10:01 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire
at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 11/7/21 5:27 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
...
I remember the same from about 40 years ago. The RSTS/E development lab had a large 11/70
("the ARK" because it had two of almost every peripheral RSTS supported). Right
next to it was a pretty large VAX-11/780. It was a whole lot noisier than even that very
large 11/70.
In fact, there was an internal joke that the cooling blowers in the 780 were designed to
push the machine away from walls, to ensure field service access clearance to the machine.
:-)
paul
Anyway, Magica was up and running for about 6h
yesterday. A real 11/70 might outnoise an 11/780. :-D
We have a PDP-11/70 and a VAX-11/780 in adjacent rows at the museum. The 11/780 is
considerably louder. I will measure this for quantitative numbers the next time I'm
over there.
8 Nov
8 Nov
4:39 a.m.
On 11/7/21 10:11 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
I remember the same from about 40 years ago. The RSTS/E development lab had a large
11/70 ("the ARK" because it had two of almost every peripheral RSTS supported).
Right next to it was a pretty large VAX-11/780. It was a whole lot noisier than even that
very large 11/70.
Yeah, I'd believe it.
Anyway, Magica was up and running for about 6h
yesterday. A real 11/70 might outnoise an 11/780. :-D
We have a PDP-11/70 and a VAX-11/780 in adjacent rows at the museum. The 11/780 is
considerably louder. I will measure this for quantitative numbers the next time I'm
over there. In fact, there was an internal joke that the cooling
blowers in the 780 were designed to push the machine away from walls, to ensure field
service access clearance to the machine. :-)
soda -> keyboard
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
7 Nov
7 Nov
9:26 p.m.
On 2021-11-07 16:01, Dave McGuire wrote:
I suspect there might be a difference if you have an old style 11/70 in
two 19" cabinets or the corporate cab one. Not sure which would be
loudest though. Update have both, but we've never had them running side
by side.
Magica is nowadays in a corporate cab.
And Magica is soon going to be disconnected and moved as well. I expect
I need to make a few decisions in the next few days, and then send some
information to this list on how HECnet is going to handle this...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On 11/7/21 5:27 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
/me looks at the 8650 and thinks "today?". :-)
? "Doooo eet, mang!"
We will turn it on one last time before we move things out. But not sure
exactly when right now...
>> A lot of VMS, obviously, but not that much
noise from that crowd. :-)
> I wish we made more noise. :)
? [/me heads to LSSM and fires up the VAX-11/780]
[/me drools jealously]
:) Anyway, Magica
was up and running for about 6h yesterday. A real 11/70
might outnoise an 11/780. :-D
? We have a PDP-11/70 and a VAX-11/780 in adjacent rows at the museum.
The 11/780 is considerably louder.? I will measure this for quantitative
numbers the next time I'm over there.
10:43 p.m.
On 11/7/21 3:26 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
I suspect there might be a difference if you have an
old style 11/70 in
two 19" cabinets or the corporate cab one. Not sure which would be
loudest though. Update have both, but we've never had them running side
by side.
There's not much difference. (we have both) The corporate cabinet
one sounds a bit more muffled but that's about it.
Magica is nowadays in a corporate cab.
And Magica is soon going to be disconnected and moved as well. I expect
I need to make a few decisions in the next few days, and then send some
information to this list on how HECnet is going to handle this...
Good luck!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
8 Nov
8 Nov
1:03 a.m.
Ugh, th/e/ larger ones /all/ made a racket, even an 11/05 in a rack.? An
11/40 really did, particularly did because you had sit close to it to
use the GT40.? I don't remember an 8/E being that bad.
But 10's and 20's?? Ouch.? The machine room at Marlboro that I used had
a pile of KL's, KI's and a KA in it.? 2116, 2012, 2136, 1031 come to
mind, but there had to be three times that list. What a racket.
Columbia was even worse because it was more cramped and /arctic/. One
3rd shift operator worked with a quilted hunting vest and shooting muffs
enclosing his ears.
On 11/7/21 3:26 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2021-11-07 16:01, Dave McGuire wrote:
I suspect there might be a difference if you have an old style 11/70
in two 19" cabinets or the corporate cab one. Not sure which would be
loudest though. Update have both, but we've never had them running
side by side.
Magica is nowadays in a corporate cab.
And Magica is soon going to be disconnected and moved as well. I
expect I need to make a few decisions in the next few days, and then
send some information to this list on how HECnet is going to handle
this...
? Johnny
On 11/7/21 5:27 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
?? "Doooo eet, mang!"
We will turn it on one last time before we move things out. But not
sure exactly when right now...
>>> A lot of VMS, obviously, but not that much noise from that
>>> crowd. :-)
>> I wish we made more noise. :)
>
> ? [/me heads to LSSM and fires up the VAX-11/780]
[/me drools jealously]
:)
/me looks at the 8650 and thinks "today?". :-) Anyway,
Magica was up and running for about 6h yesterday. A real
11/70 might outnoise an 11/780. :-D
?? We have a PDP-11/70 and a VAX-11/780 in adjacent rows at the
museum. The 11/780 is considerably louder.? I will measure this for
quantitative numbers the next time I'm over there.
3:23 p.m.
On Nov 7, 2021, at 7:03 PM, Thomas DeBellis
<tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote:
Ugh, the larger ones all made a racket, even an 11/05 in a rack. An 11/40 really did,
particularly did because you had sit close to it to use the GT40. I don't remember an
8/E being that bad.
But 10's and 20's? Ouch. The machine room at Marlboro that I used had a pile of
KL's, KI's and a KA in it. 2116, 2012, 2136, 1031 come to mind, but there had to
be three times that list. What a racket.
One of the nice features of CDC mainframes (the 60 bit machines) is that they were rather
quiet. That's because the mainframe was liquid cooled, with water cooling of the
refrigeration machinery. Only external boxes like the console and outboard peripheral
controllers had cooling fans. The machines I worked on had the disk drives in another
room (one floor down) which put all that noise away from the operators. Being able to
talk to your colleagues without shouting was quite nice.
paul
4 Nov
4 Nov
10:13 p.m.
Gerry,
Boy thanks for that response!!? You sure did knock some dust out of my mind!
I have seen part of this before; it's modifying the Tops-10 idle loop to
notify the KLH10 micro-engine that there are no jobs that want to run.?
The modification is roughly equivalent to what was done to Tops-20.?
However, it should not be assumed that this is The Thing To Do on simh
or other PDP-10's.
As I recall, simh does /not/ implement the Idler device.? I believe Bob
Supnick's position was something along the lines of don't code to
hardware which never existed and that the same effect of not loading the
host could be achieved by snooping the PC.
MRC didn't agree at all and made some rather interesting arguments that
KLH10 (and simh, for that matter), should be seen as legitimate PDP-10
implementations.? MRC being MRC, he generalized the Idler to provide
additional functionality which was not normally seen on a KL, a switch
register and console lights.? Parts of the monitor were changed to be
able to communicate status to Bob Armstrong's PANDA display.
I don't see why device address 700 would be any more or less risky than
740.? As long is nothing else is sitting on the address, you're fine
from what I can remember.
PS: Hey, you forgot TECO...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 11/4/21 11:44 AM, G. wrote:
6. Open CLOCK1.MAC with any editor of your choice (SOS, EDIT, etc.) and
modify it as follows:
??? Before:? SOJG?? 6,1???? ;AC1 - DON'T CAUSE EXCESSIVE MEMORY
INTERFERENCE
??? After:?? CONO?? 740,1?? ;AC1 - DON'T CAUSE EXCESSIVE MEMORY
INTERFERENCE
(I have removed some white space to fit either line in 78 characters)
The address in the above CONO instruction must match the address of
the idler in the emulator configuration. Several online tutorials
suggest 700 but for some reason 740 should be a safer choice (I forgot
the specifics, nonetheless some post in alt.sys.pdp10 may have some
explanation)
5 Nov
5 Nov
11:59 a.m.
I have seen part of this before; it's modifying
the Tops-10 idle loop to
notify the KLH10 micro-engine that there are no jobs that want to run.? The
modification is roughly equivalent to what was done to Tops-20.? However, it
should not be assumed that this is The Thing To Do on simh or other PDP-10's.
Indeed, I agree on everything. Mine were instructions for some specific
purpose that I pasted here just to give an outline of the several required
steps to rebuild the monitor, but people must tailor them to their needs. :)
I don't see why device address 700 would be any
more or less risky than 740.
As long is nothing else is sitting on the address, you're fine from what I can
remember.
From what I can read after some quick search in alt.sys.pdp10, in 2004 (!)
someone had issues with UNJ stopcodes ("This stopcode occurs when the null job
executes a monitor call other than the doorbell call") and found that the
processor reference manual says that "Unless User In-out is set, do not give
any IO instruction with device code less than 740" (on page 2-136) hence I
guess that 740 instead of 700 must have been a safer choice.
Moreover, in some other post MRC refers to devices whose address is above 700
(or 740?) as "unrestricted" devices. I'm not expert enough to understand
any
of it but I followed what seemed some sensible advice. :)
HTH,
G.
P.S. Just in case, I have a couple of procedures (.CTL) to rebuild both the
TOPS-20 monitor and EXEC from sources...
917
days inactive
921
days old
28 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
bob＠jfcl.com -
bqt＠softjar.se -
chris.berry＠bbcomp.co.uk -
gerry77＠mail.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
nf6x＠nf6x.net -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
roll＠stupi.com -
supratim＠riseup.net -
tommytimesharing＠gmail.com -
trevor.heartfield＠heartfield.co.uk