- HECnet - lists @ Update

ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) --> should be Ddcmp --Re2

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

Yes, but they are async lines and these are indeed character based with software determining the protocol, not so the sync liness. Async decnet ddcmp behaves slightly differently from sync decnet ddcmp in number of characters used. Look at the packet contents in used characters and in between. Reindert -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 23:23 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) --> should be Ddcmp --Re Well... RSX for example can talk DDCMP over DZ11 or DL11 lines just as well, which are plain simple serial lines existing in simh. Hopefully such lines can be connected with interfaces doing DDCMP in hardware (simulated in simh of course), and it should all work. And any software running in RSX just have an interface that gives the DDCMP packet layer. The actual serial lines are not accessible as such by any other software than the DDCMP driver. Johnny On 2021-11-18 23:01, R. Voorhorst wrote: > Point in this case is that the ddcmp is handled in Simh and not in system software so software can only deal with packets/messages; there is need for a simh sync line where the software itself will be able to communicate in bytes/characters and synthesize the packets/messages as the next higher organization. > > Reindert > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On > Behalf Of Johnny Billquist > Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 22:39 > To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE > Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) --> should > be Ddcmp > > Well, a serial line over which DDCMP is running is purely a packet based interface. > > Johnny > > On 2021-11-18 21:46, R. Voorhorst wrote: >> Indeed it is Ddcmp, but the meaning is the difference between >> packet/message oriented and character oriented and the latter should also exist. >> >> Reindert >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On >> Behalf Of Robert Armstrong >> Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 21:11 >> To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE >> Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) >> >>> Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote: >>> They speak DDCMP, yes, but not DECnet. Any protocol layered over >>> DDCMP >> should work. >> >> Indeed, and we just proved that with ANF10 which uses the DMCs >> and DUPs but is not DECnet. >> >> Bob >> >> >> > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

3 years, 7 months

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ANF10 network --> DN200/DN20 --> instant gratification ...? -->throttling

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

Nope: 2000/1 means 2000 instructions and wat 1 msec which is the resultion of the sleep timer. Reindert From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Supratim Sanyal Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 21:06 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> DN200/DN20 --> instant gratification ...? On 11/18/21 1:35 PM, Paul Koning wrote: On Nov 18, 2021, at 1:26 PM, Supratim Sanyal <mailto:supratim at riseup.net> <supratim at riseup.net> wrote: On 11/18/21 11:10 AM, R. Voorhorst wrote: Hi, Hi. ... 2. The simh config file for configuring a working simh Pdp11/34 with the proper throttling to make it work; the proper setting is important because of Chk11 init phase which is instruction timing based!!! How does one arrive at a realistic argument for throttle? Did you put 2000/1 because you reckon your host processor does 2000 instructions in the same time as the guest processor does 1? Or is it more pure clock speed based? SET THROTTLE 2000/1 Check the docs ("help set throttle"). The simplest is to say what instruction rate you want: "set throttle 300k" is probably a pretty realistic setting to make it look like an 11/20; "set throttle 2m" is a somewhat optimistic 11/70. I am interpreting the "2000/1" as "wait 2 seconds after one instruction" which cannot be right, hence my question. BTW, throttle is dicey; my MicroVAX 3800 (the SIMH "vax") machines are set to 1.9 mips (3.8 times of the 0.5 mip 11/780), but still they grab 100% of a core running *BSD. But this is a discussion for the SIMH forum, not here. paul --

3 years, 7 months

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ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) --> should be Ddcmp --Re

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

Point in this case is that the ddcmp is handled in Simh and not in system software so software can only deal with packets/messages; there is need for a simh sync line where the software itself will be able to communicate in bytes/characters and synthesize the packets/messages as the next higher organization. Reindert -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 22:39 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) --> should be Ddcmp Well, a serial line over which DDCMP is running is purely a packet based interface. Johnny On 2021-11-18 21:46, R. Voorhorst wrote: > Indeed it is Ddcmp, but the meaning is the difference between > packet/message oriented and character oriented and the latter should also exist. > > Reindert > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On > Behalf Of Robert Armstrong > Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 21:11 > To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE > Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) > >> Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote: >> They speak DDCMP, yes, but not DECnet. Any protocol layered over >> DDCMP > should work. > > Indeed, and we just proved that with ANF10 which uses the DMCs and > DUPs but is not DECnet. > > Bob > > > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

3 years, 7 months

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ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) --> should be Ddcmp

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

Indeed it is Ddcmp, but the meaning is the difference between packet/message oriented and character oriented and the latter should also exist. Reindert -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 21:11 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet) > Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote: >They speak DDCMP, yes, but not DECnet. Any protocol layered over DDCMP should work. Indeed, and we just proved that with ANF10 which uses the DMCs and DUPs but is not DECnet. Bob

3 years, 7 months

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ANF10 network --> DN200 (RJE, Decnet)

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

That will probably not realized any time soon. First, all simh sync interfaces speak inherently Decnet (Dmc/Dmr and Kdp/Dup); a simple character based sync line is not yet implemented but needed? Yes!. Second DN200 Rje like DN20/200 Decnet is not like Anf10 but Rsx11S based and it will not(yet) run; debugging is difficult because there almost no source code available to prevent reverse engineering. At the moment, luckily, it already crashes in the Init code and I have the sources for Rsx-11M 3.1 which is the family member of the used Rsx-11S. But there may be more being wrong before we get it running. So far my glazy eyes only see the prompt: DECnet-20 V3.0 Reindert From: Peter Lothberg [mailto:roll at stupi.com] Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 17:16 To: bob <bob at jfcl.com> Cc: Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net>; R. Voorhorst <R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com> Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup --> recipe for 8 Dups The red QZ sticker on MRC's 2020 (YIPYIP) I put there.. I have a picture of Nadja from LCM, but can't rememeber where. I will look at the DN200 code. I also looked at doing "ANF-NAT". -P _____ From: "bob" <bob at jfcl.com <mailto:bob at jfcl.com> > To: "Supratim Sanyal" <supratim at riseup.net <mailto:supratim at riseup.net> >, "Peter Lothberg" <roll at stupi.com <mailto:roll at stupi.com> > Cc: "R. Voorhorst" <R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com <mailto:R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com> > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2021 11:03:38 AM Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup --> recipe for 8 Dups What?s the user name and password for the guest account? GUEST and GUEST?? And somehow it seems like [666,666] would be a more appropriate PPN. Like Peter said, all these machines, even TWONKY, are really just clones of VENTI. Same TOPS10, same hardware configuration, same installed utilities, languages, etc. Until somebody starts actually doing something with them to make them unique, there isn?t any point in logging in anywhere else. I?m going to fire up a VAX (a real VAX, that is!) and see if I can read some of my old TOPS10 nine track tapes today. Don?t know how well they?ve survived over the last 40 years or so. BTW, is anybody interested in fooling with Reindert?s PDP11 RJE setup? That?d be something different? I stood next to MRC?s 2020, complete with all the stickers, at the LCM. Didn?t think to take my picture with it though.. Bob

3 years, 7 months

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ANF10 network --> DN200/DN20 --> instant gratification ...?

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

Hi, For the impatient amongst thee I have as interim solution the following, pending the release of the software tree: 1. The load image for simh Pdp11 of Anfu63 being a 5 sync line DN200 with peripherals with node-number 63 (routers top down allocated). 2. The simh config file for configuring a working simh Pdp11/34 with the proper throttling to make it work; the proper setting is important because of Chk11 init phase which is instruction timing based!!! 3. The pdf of the complete listing file of the Anfu63 load image. This configuration maxes out on the number of possible connections to be usable as a star formation router. Beware: the plt plotter device is absent in current simh Pdp11 as I added it in my simh variants for Pdp8A sim (almost finished), Pdp11, Pdp10 and Pdp10-KI/KL; it should not be a problem and can be commented out. The config is for a Windows platform but you Unix/Linux guys will easily hack it into your suitable form. The config file is self-explanatory with respect to interconnecting; I keep a port number allocation schema for all my Decnet/Anf10 nodes. This configuration runs on a Pdp11 simh with a commit date from about 2 years ago, but I do not think it will preclude the current last commit. It you got it running, you can inspect the running node with Ddt11 from a KS10 based system. Download link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/170HhUK84d81MMjre8z5vgEennxPdJ10g/view?usp=s haring If problems, contact me . Fun and success, Reindert From: R. Voorhorst [mailto:R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com] Sent: Wednesday, 17 November, 2021 10:07 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Cc: 'Robert Armstrong' <bob at jfcl.com>; 'Peter Lothberg' <roll at stupi.com> Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup --> recipe for 8 Dups The following recipe enables 8 dups: In simh in Pdp10_defs.h: #define DUP_LINES 8 /* max # of DUP11's */ and rebuild the pdp10. In Tops10: Edit NETPRM.MAC in the monitor build tree, usually in [10,7,MON], and modify: MXNDUP==^D8 from ^D2 and reassemble NETPRM and D8KINT and replace it in TOPS10.REL. In SYSCNF.MAC locate M.KDUP and modify as follows M.KDUP==:10 ;; Type of line for KDP0 (ANF10,DECNET,USER,IBM) [ ;; This question is asked for each KDP (KMC/DUP line) indicated in the ;; previous question. Type the name of the network product that the line ;; will support.]: d M.0KDP==:2 M.1KDP==:2 M.2KDP==:2 M.3KDP==:2 M.4KDP==:1 M.5KDP==:1 M.6KDP==:1 M.7KDP==:1 The above values are for 4 Decnet and 4 Anf10 but that can be filled in differently as needed Then rebuild the monitor. Change the Simh Pdp10 config file with the required settings set dup lines=8 and attach definitions for Dup0 to Dup7. That is all there is to it; if the instructions are to sparse I will expand them; patched files are overkill here as generally my files have evolved further in version numbers and features and undoing the unnecessary ones may lead to errors. The DN200 files have to wait till next week as I have other obligations at the moment. Success, Reindert From: Robert Armstrong [mailto:bob at jfcl.com] Sent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2021 21:33 To: R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup Reindert, Post the details, please! Especially the TOPS10 patch. MONGEN limits you to two lines on the KS, but even if I manually edit the resulting SYSCNF.MAC file I still get errors when building the monitor. Are you also running an ANF10 network? Thanks, Bob From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of R. Voorhorst Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 12:18 PM To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup L.S. It is quite easy to expand this; currently I run 8 lines from the Kdp/dup and it works quite well. It needs a slight adaptation in Simh and another in Tops10, but you have to rebuild the monitor. Reindert From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2021 17:34 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: [HECnet] ANF10 network Supratim and I (with some help and encouragement from Peter) have set up an ANF10 network between the TOPS10 nodes VENTI and TWONKY. If you haven't heard of it, ANF10 (short for "A Networking Feature" - yes, really!) predates DECnet (I'm pretty sure, although I'm sure there will be debate about that) and provides mostly the same functions - remote terminals, file transfer, etc. ANF10 also has remote RJEs with card readers, line printers and terminal concentrators. .net/anf [ANF10 network: connected to VENTI(20), located at VENTI(20), 2 nodes] Node VENTI (20) SIMH KS10 VENTI 7.04 NET 14-Nov-21 Node TWONKY (37) SIMH KS10 TWONKY 7.04NET 15-Nov-21 It's possible to run ANF10 and DECnet both, and that's what we're doing so TWONKY and VENTI are also available on HECnet. If anybody else has a TOPS10 system and would like to connect it would be nice to add a few more nodes, but there is a problem. TOPS10 supports a maximum of two KDP/DUP lines on the KS10, and you need one for DECnet and the other for ANF10. That means each system can talk to at most one other ANF10 system, which limits the network size to two nodes. Bummer. There are a few options available - * DEC made some DNxx PDP-11 boxes that supported multiple ANF10 connections. We could set up one of these as a router. * Somebody could hack TOPS10 to allow more than two DUP lines. * Somebody could write a pyDECnet type gizmo that speaks ANF10. And there might be others that I haven't thought of yet. Any ideas? Bob

3 years, 7 months

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Getting reconnected

by b4＠gewt.net

Been awhile since I've posted anything, or been connected but I'd like to work on getting reconnected to HECnet. I would still like to do Cisco connections - just need to pass that through the firewall. Can a more-modern ISR running IOS-XE do DECnet? (specifically a cisco 4321). Worst case I can just re-use the 2851, but that's got a lot of telephony config on it so would like to separate out uses if possible. (Also - you may have previously known me as Cory Smelosky - please update contact details and whatnot) I used to be area 9 - I will continue to use that area. Thanks! -- Madeline Autumn-Rose http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

3 years, 7 months

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ANF10 network

by bob＠jfcl.com

Supratim and I (with some help and encouragement from Peter) have set up an ANF10 network between the TOPS10 nodes VENTI and TWONKY. If you haven't heard of it, ANF10 (short for "A Networking Feature" - yes, really!) predates DECnet (I'm pretty sure, although I'm sure there will be debate about that) and provides mostly the same functions - remote terminals, file transfer, etc. ANF10 also has remote RJEs with card readers, line printers and terminal concentrators. .net/anf [ANF10 network: connected to VENTI(20), located at VENTI(20), 2 nodes] Node VENTI (20) SIMH KS10 VENTI 7.04 NET 14-Nov-21 Node TWONKY (37) SIMH KS10 TWONKY 7.04NET 15-Nov-21 It's possible to run ANF10 and DECnet both, and that's what we're doing so TWONKY and VENTI are also available on HECnet. If anybody else has a TOPS10 system and would like to connect it would be nice to add a few more nodes, but there is a problem. TOPS10 supports a maximum of two KDP/DUP lines on the KS10, and you need one for DECnet and the other for ANF10. That means each system can talk to at most one other ANF10 system, which limits the network size to two nodes. Bummer. There are a few options available - . DEC made some DNxx PDP-11 boxes that supported multiple ANF10 connections. We could set up one of these as a router. . Somebody could hack TOPS10 to allow more than two DUP lines. . Somebody could write a pyDECnet type gizmo that speaks ANF10. And there might be others that I haven't thought of yet. Any ideas? Bob

3 years, 7 months

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ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup --> recipe for 8 Dups

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

The following recipe enables 8 dups: In simh in Pdp10_defs.h: #define DUP_LINES 8 /* max # of DUP11's */ and rebuild the pdp10. In Tops10: Edit NETPRM.MAC in the monitor build tree, usually in [10,7,MON], and modify: MXNDUP==^D8 from ^D2 and reassemble NETPRM and D8KINT and replace it in TOPS10.REL. In SYSCNF.MAC locate M.KDUP and modify as follows M.KDUP==:10 ;; Type of line for KDP0 (ANF10,DECNET,USER,IBM) [ ;; This question is asked for each KDP (KMC/DUP line) indicated in the ;; previous question. Type the name of the network product that the line ;; will support.]: d M.0KDP==:2 M.1KDP==:2 M.2KDP==:2 M.3KDP==:2 M.4KDP==:1 M.5KDP==:1 M.6KDP==:1 M.7KDP==:1 The above values are for 4 Decnet and 4 Anf10 but that can be filled in differently as needed Then rebuild the monitor. Change the Simh Pdp10 config file with the required settings set dup lines=8 and attach definitions for Dup0 to Dup7. That is all there is to it; if the instructions are to sparse I will expand them; patched files are overkill here as generally my files have evolved further in version numbers and features and undoing the unnecessary ones may lead to errors. The DN200 files have to wait till next week as I have other obligations at the moment. Success, Reindert From: Robert Armstrong [mailto:bob at jfcl.com] Sent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2021 21:33 To: R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup Reindert, Post the details, please! Especially the TOPS10 patch. MONGEN limits you to two lines on the KS, but even if I manually edit the resulting SYSCNF.MAC file I still get errors when building the monitor. Are you also running an ANF10 network? Thanks, Bob From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of R. Voorhorst Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 12:18 PM To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup L.S. It is quite easy to expand this; currently I run 8 lines from the Kdp/dup and it works quite well. It needs a slight adaptation in Simh and another in Tops10, but you have to rebuild the monitor. Reindert From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2021 17:34 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: [HECnet] ANF10 network Supratim and I (with some help and encouragement from Peter) have set up an ANF10 network between the TOPS10 nodes VENTI and TWONKY. If you haven't heard of it, ANF10 (short for "A Networking Feature" - yes, really!) predates DECnet (I'm pretty sure, although I'm sure there will be debate about that) and provides mostly the same functions - remote terminals, file transfer, etc. ANF10 also has remote RJEs with card readers, line printers and terminal concentrators. .net/anf [ANF10 network: connected to VENTI(20), located at VENTI(20), 2 nodes] Node VENTI (20) SIMH KS10 VENTI 7.04 NET 14-Nov-21 Node TWONKY (37) SIMH KS10 TWONKY 7.04NET 15-Nov-21 It's possible to run ANF10 and DECnet both, and that's what we're doing so TWONKY and VENTI are also available on HECnet. If anybody else has a TOPS10 system and would like to connect it would be nice to add a few more nodes, but there is a problem. TOPS10 supports a maximum of two KDP/DUP lines on the KS10, and you need one for DECnet and the other for ANF10. That means each system can talk to at most one other ANF10 system, which limits the network size to two nodes. Bummer. There are a few options available - * DEC made some DNxx PDP-11 boxes that supported multiple ANF10 connections. We could set up one of these as a router. * Somebody could hack TOPS10 to allow more than two DUP lines. * Somebody could write a pyDECnet type gizmo that speaks ANF10. And there might be others that I haven't thought of yet. Any ideas? Bob

3 years, 7 months

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ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 --> DN200/DN20 parameters

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

The DN200/DN20 actually supports 5 Dmc class sync lines with some limitations with number of buffers per line; the system is unmapped i.e. only 28 kW available and only 5 concurrent sync lines of one class will fit comfortably within an otherwise maxed combination of terminal lines and peripherals. I use the Dmc's for that as they will communicate with every class of sync interfaces, so with Dups as well. Mixed varieties of sync lines diminish the max achievable active number of lines. Theoretically one can have more lines per controller and more controllers, but memory constrains what will work. I have not tried Dup's yet for exceeding the pseudo standard of 2 lines. Reindert -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong Sent: Wednesday, 17 November, 2021 00:12 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 Yes, please! And does your DN200 support 4 synchronous lines? Did you modify that too? The ANF10 manual says it only supports two. Thanks, Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Peter Lothberg Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 3:02 PM To: hecnet Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 Reindert, Would you share the patches to Tops10/simh to support the 4 DUP-11's? -P ----- Original Message ----- > From: "R. Voorhorst" <R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com> > To: "hecnet" <hecnet at Update.UU.SE> > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 5:15:00 PM > Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 > L.S. > > Anf10 ethernet and sync lines are 2 separate domains and currently > there are no standard interconnections. > The (now late) Johnny Ericsson had an Anf10 tunnel but I never tried it. > On a KL10 with dte interface a certain routing should be possible, but > that cannot yet be done I also restored a DN200 Pdp11 simh workstation > (see Anfu63) with terminals and peripherals with remote printing, > plotting etc. > The network looks like this from the multi kdp/dup node with 2 decnet > and 2 > anf10 active: > > > .net/t > [ANF10 network: connected to ANFW08(57), located at ANFW08(57), 5 nodes] > Node ANFW04 (53) 77(8), 55(8), 54(8) > Node ANFW05 (54) 77(8), 53(8) > Node ANFW06 (55) 77(8), 53(8) > Node ANFW08 (57) 77(10) > Node ANFU63 (77) 53(6), 54(6), 55(6), 57(6) > > [DECnet network: local node SWBW08, 8 reachable nodes in area 63] > Name Number Line Cost Hops L.Links Delay > SWBC01 (63.50) KDP-0-0 7 1 > SWBV89 (63.89) KDP-0-0 7 1 > SWBW01 (63.51) KDP-0-0 11 2 > SWBW04 (63.54) KDP-0-0 12 2 > SWBW05 (63.55) KDP-0-1 7 1 > SWBW06 (63.56) KDP-0-0 12 2 > SWBW08 (63.58) local 0 0 0 5000 > SWBX01 (63.41) KDP-0-0 11 2 > > .net > [ANF10 network: connected to ANFW08(57), located at ANFW08(57), 5 nodes] > Node ANFW04 (53) Swbw04 Tops10-7.07/34201 01-aug-20 > Node ANFW05 (54) Swbw05 Tops10-7.07/34201 01-aug-20 > Node ANFW06 (55) Swbw06 Tops10-7.07/34201 16-jul-20 > Node ANFW08 (57) SwbW08 Tops10-7.06/34100 27-Jul-20 > Node ANFU63 (77) DN200 V25(244) 02-Aug-89 > > [DECnet network: local node SWBW08, 8 reachable nodes in area 63] > SWBC01 SWBV89 SWBW01 SWBW04 SWBW05 SWBW06 SWBW08 SWBX01 > > Reindert

3 years, 7 months

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ANF10 network --> node limitations

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

Yes I can provide that but we must see where to put it; maybe temporarily on Swbv55 as that one is usually active on hecnet or I will create a Tops10 node linked to Swbv55 with a sync line. Remember though, Anf10 has a limitation of 64 nodes including DN200's, so there is a limit. -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Peter Lothberg Sent: Wednesday, 17 November, 2021 01:02 To: hecnet <hecnet at Update.UU.SE> Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 --> DN200/DN20 parameters Reindert, can you put the DN200 complete package up for grabs? Ad se can have an "infinite number" of virtual dn200's to link the systems together, this might be the best thing for a HECanf10 before Paul writes a perl version -:) --P ----- Original Message ----- > From: "R. Voorhorst" <R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com> > To: "hecnet" <hecnet at Update.UU.SE> > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 6:36:02 PM > Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 --> > DN200/DN20 parameters > The DN200/DN20 actually supports 5 Dmc class sync lines with some > limitations with number of buffers per line; the system is unmapped > i.e. only 28 kW available and only 5 concurrent sync lines of one > class will fit comfortably within an otherwise maxed combination of terminal lines and peripherals. > I use the Dmc's for that as they will communicate with every class of > sync interfaces, so with Dups as well. > Mixed varieties of sync lines diminish the max achievable active > number of lines. > Theoretically one can have more lines per controller and more > controllers, but memory constrains what will work. I have not tried > Dup's yet for exceeding the pseudo standard of 2 lines. > > Reindert

3 years, 7 months

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ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 --> patches

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

Yes, I will collect them and make them available and it is for 8 dups. You can then choose how many you actually have active. Decnet supports up to 8 circuits/lines. Reindert -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Peter Lothberg Sent: Wednesday, 17 November, 2021 00:02 To: hecnet <hecnet at Update.UU.SE> Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 Reindert, Would you share the patches to Tops10/simh to support the 4 DUP-11's? -P ----- Original Message ----- > From: "R. Voorhorst" <R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com> > To: "hecnet" <hecnet at Update.UU.SE> > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 5:15:00 PM > Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 > L.S. > > Anf10 ethernet and sync lines are 2 separate domains and currently > there are no standard interconnections. > The (now late) Johnny Ericsson had an Anf10 tunnel but I never tried it. > On a KL10 with dte interface a certain routing should be possible, but > that cannot yet be done I also restored a DN200 Pdp11 simh workstation > (see Anfu63) with terminals and peripherals with remote printing, > plotting etc. > The network looks like this from the multi kdp/dup node with 2 decnet > and 2 > anf10 active: > > > .net/t > [ANF10 network: connected to ANFW08(57), located at ANFW08(57), 5 nodes] > Node ANFW04 (53) 77(8), 55(8), 54(8) > Node ANFW05 (54) 77(8), 53(8) > Node ANFW06 (55) 77(8), 53(8) > Node ANFW08 (57) 77(10) > Node ANFU63 (77) 53(6), 54(6), 55(6), 57(6) > > [DECnet network: local node SWBW08, 8 reachable nodes in area 63] > Name Number Line Cost Hops L.Links Delay > SWBC01 (63.50) KDP-0-0 7 1 > SWBV89 (63.89) KDP-0-0 7 1 > SWBW01 (63.51) KDP-0-0 11 2 > SWBW04 (63.54) KDP-0-0 12 2 > SWBW05 (63.55) KDP-0-1 7 1 > SWBW06 (63.56) KDP-0-0 12 2 > SWBW08 (63.58) local 0 0 0 5000 > SWBX01 (63.41) KDP-0-0 11 2 > > .net > [ANF10 network: connected to ANFW08(57), located at ANFW08(57), 5 nodes] > Node ANFW04 (53) Swbw04 Tops10-7.07/34201 01-aug-20 > Node ANFW05 (54) Swbw05 Tops10-7.07/34201 01-aug-20 > Node ANFW06 (55) Swbw06 Tops10-7.07/34201 16-jul-20 > Node ANFW08 (57) SwbW08 Tops10-7.06/34100 27-Jul-20 > Node ANFU63 (77) DN200 V25(244) 02-Aug-89 > > [DECnet network: local node SWBW08, 8 reachable nodes in area 63] > SWBC01 SWBV89 SWBW01 SWBW04 SWBW05 SWBW06 SWBW08 SWBX01 > > Reindert

3 years, 7 months

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ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

L.S. Anf10 ethernet and sync lines are 2 separate domains and currently there are no standard interconnections. The (now late) Johnny Ericsson had an Anf10 tunnel but I never tried it. On a KL10 with dte interface a certain routing should be possible, but that cannot yet be done I also restored a DN200 Pdp11 simh workstation (see Anfu63) with terminals and peripherals with remote printing, plotting etc. The network looks like this from the multi kdp/dup node with 2 decnet and 2 anf10 active: .net/t [ANF10 network: connected to ANFW08(57), located at ANFW08(57), 5 nodes] Node ANFW04 (53) 77(8), 55(8), 54(8) Node ANFW05 (54) 77(8), 53(8) Node ANFW06 (55) 77(8), 53(8) Node ANFW08 (57) 77(10) Node ANFU63 (77) 53(6), 54(6), 55(6), 57(6) [DECnet network: local node SWBW08, 8 reachable nodes in area 63] Name Number Line Cost Hops L.Links Delay SWBC01 (63.50) KDP-0-0 7 1 SWBV89 (63.89) KDP-0-0 7 1 SWBW01 (63.51) KDP-0-0 11 2 SWBW04 (63.54) KDP-0-0 12 2 SWBW05 (63.55) KDP-0-1 7 1 SWBW06 (63.56) KDP-0-0 12 2 SWBW08 (63.58) local 0 0 0 5000 SWBX01 (63.41) KDP-0-0 11 2 .net [ANF10 network: connected to ANFW08(57), located at ANFW08(57), 5 nodes] Node ANFW04 (53) Swbw04 Tops10-7.07/34201 01-aug-20 Node ANFW05 (54) Swbw05 Tops10-7.07/34201 01-aug-20 Node ANFW06 (55) Swbw06 Tops10-7.07/34201 16-jul-20 Node ANFW08 (57) SwbW08 Tops10-7.06/34100 27-Jul-20 Node ANFU63 (77) DN200 V25(244) 02-Aug-89 [DECnet network: local node SWBW08, 8 reachable nodes in area 63] SWBC01 SWBV89 SWBW01 SWBW04 SWBW05 SWBW06 SWBW08 SWBX01 Reindert -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of G. Sent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2021 21:36 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network > It was not full mesh. ANF10 has routing with metrics like DECnet and > RDH even wrote a driver to talk over Ethernet between KL's. If anyone is curious, here below is a link to the ANF-to-Ethernet code by RDH. It contains some nice explanation too :) http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/bb-jr93k-bb/01/10,7/mon/d8eint.mac.html G.

3 years, 7 months

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LSSM group visit today

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

LSSM hosted a CompSci class from Carnegie-Mellon University today, a for-credit class trip and project. They all learned the Forth language, rather well I might add, and wrote their own demos, on one of our PDP-11/70s. Here are some pics: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LSSM-CMU-2021/20211115_152707.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LSSM-CMU-2021/20211115_152757.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LSSM-CMU-2021/20211115_154319_03.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LSSM-CMU-2021/20211115_154355_01.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LSSM-CMU-2021/20211115_154451.jpg The 11/70 isn't pictured, but you all know what those look like. It's the one on the Wikipedia "PDP-11" page, though that's a very old picture from when it was at my home. (please excuse the falling front window sign, it's disintegrating and we're awaiting its replacement) I mention this here in case anyone is interested, and the machine, FANG::, is on HECnet whenever it's running. (which is my tenuous link to "on-topic") -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

3 years, 7 months

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ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

L.S. It is quite easy to expand this; currently I run 8 lines from the Kdp/dup and it works quite well. It needs a slight adaptation in Simh and another in Tops10, but you have to rebuild the monitor. Reindert From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2021 17:34 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: [HECnet] ANF10 network Supratim and I (with some help and encouragement from Peter) have set up an ANF10 network between the TOPS10 nodes VENTI and TWONKY. If you haven't heard of it, ANF10 (short for "A Networking Feature" - yes, really!) predates DECnet (I'm pretty sure, although I'm sure there will be debate about that) and provides mostly the same functions - remote terminals, file transfer, etc. ANF10 also has remote RJEs with card readers, line printers and terminal concentrators. .net/anf [ANF10 network: connected to VENTI(20), located at VENTI(20), 2 nodes] Node VENTI (20) SIMH KS10 VENTI 7.04 NET 14-Nov-21 Node TWONKY (37) SIMH KS10 TWONKY 7.04NET 15-Nov-21 It's possible to run ANF10 and DECnet both, and that's what we're doing so TWONKY and VENTI are also available on HECnet. If anybody else has a TOPS10 system and would like to connect it would be nice to add a few more nodes, but there is a problem. TOPS10 supports a maximum of two KDP/DUP lines on the KS10, and you need one for DECnet and the other for ANF10. That means each system can talk to at most one other ANF10 system, which limits the network size to two nodes. Bummer. There are a few options available - * DEC made some DNxx PDP-11 boxes that supported multiple ANF10 connections. We could set up one of these as a router. * Somebody could hack TOPS10 to allow more than two DUP lines. * Somebody could write a pyDECnet type gizmo that speaks ANF10. And there might be others that I haven't thought of yet. Any ideas? Bob

3 years, 7 months

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DEfining HECnet node names on TOPS-10

by bob＠jfcl.com

Johnny's FIX.T20 HECnet node list works on TOPS-10 as well (same NCP, same commands), BUT there's an issue. What you'd really like to do is to put something like "TAKE HECNET.CMD" inside of [1,4]SYSTEM.CMD. The latter is executed automatically at boot time and this would let you define all HECnet nodes when you start up. However OPR (at least the version with TOPS-10 7.04) doesn't allow nested TAKE commands, so the "TAKE HECNET." inside of SYSTEM.CMD fails. Has somebody figured out a trick to get around this? Bob

3 years, 7 months

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Tops-20 Terminal Buffers?

by tommytimesharing＠gmail.com

I was doing some more Kermit-20 measurements while I continue to debug the NRT code. Again, the fastest transfer rate that I could get out of a loopback pseudo-terminal connection was 129.16 KBps with a packet size of 140 characters (note previous post was in baud) .? Since this is not going outside of the PDP-10, one assumes that it would either be the top speed possible or near it as we are just talking shuttling data between buffers. I did a transfer of the same file to an iMac and was /very/ surprised to find that I got 4,000 byte packet size and a transfer rate 151.78 KBps.? That's right, using the NI resulted in a speed _increase_ of 17%.? I instrumented Kermit to report the allocated monitor buffers by line type and got the table below from various sign ons, viz: ? TTY line Type:?? FE?? PTY? NRT? TVT? CTM ? Input Buffers:??? 1??? 1??? 1??? 1??? 1 ? Output Buffers:?? 2??? 1??? 2??? 4??? 2 The abbreviations are as follows: * ?FE, Front End (RSX-20F) terminal (there is only one, CTY) * PTY, Pseudo-terminal * NRT, DECnet Network Remote Terminal * TVT, Internet Telnet Virtual Terminal * CTM, DECnet CTERM (I forget what CTERM abbreviates to) * LAT, Local Area Terminal (I don't currently have a working transport and client for this) So what we can see is that a TVT has four _times_ the buffers to play with than the PTY.? I don't currently know how large a terminal buffer is nor what else this might mean, but it is suggestive. For what it's worth, I also did comparison with FTP.? A data transfer in the RFC959 paradigm is acknowledged on the control channel with return code of 226.? There are no acknowledgements of the data channel; it's a straight fire hose.? As I expected, an FTP transfer blew Kermit right out of the water.? For the same sized file, the 20 measured an upload data rate of 1.09 *M*Bps with a 10 microsecond resolution (from first network write to return from closing the transfer 'socket').? The iMac measured 1.25 *M*Bps download. So it would appear that an FTP transfer is about 7.38 times faster, which is of interest, but otherwise perhaps irrelevant as they are not even remotely doing the same thing.? One expects the same result for DAP, once I get FTP up on that transport.? Again, we're not comparing apples to apples.

3 years, 7 months

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Multiple nodes failing NICE in the same way

by paulkoning＠comcast.net

My network scanner is getting very strange responses from three different nodes all misbehaving the same way: CAIR, MAGPIE, and FARGO. What I see is: 1. The connection to object 19 (NICE, the network management listener) is accepted, but the version number that is supposed to be sent as part of the accept is missing. 2. When I send a NICE request to the node, I get back a message with this content: <28>Nov 12 20:35:16 dnetd[1688]: Cannot chdir to /nonexistent : No such file or directory\n\xff\x00\x00 All three nodes do this. Configuration error that just happens to exist on all three? paul

3 years, 7 months

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RSTS/E started emitting "?EVTLOG (BLDNIC) -- %Integer error" messages

by tony.nicholson＠computer.org

With the recent talk about the magic 9-Nov-2021 date affecting TOPS-10, I notice today that my RSTS/E V10.1 system has started putting out console messages - ?EVTLOG (BLDNIC) -- %Integer error I'm running this on my PiPDP-11 which uses the Oscar modified SIMH PDP11 11/70 emulation. It's 10-Nov-2021 in Australia! I'm running the Paul Koning's updated Y2K version of EVTLOG from https://github.com/pkoning2/decstuff/tree/master/decnete Any ideas? I've tried rebooting and the message appears after start-up has completed, and at shutdown when the date is set to 10-Nov-21 - but not when use yesterday's date 9-Nov-21 Tony -- Tony Nicholson <tony.nicholson at computer.org>

3 years, 7 months

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Another TOPS-10 DECnet problem

by bob＠jfcl.com

. not date related this time (or at least I don't think it is). Every time I boot TOPS-10 (7.04, KS10, simh) I get stopcode NTMNEC. The job running is NML and the user PC is 511522. This is a debug stopcode so the system keeps going. The manual says of NTMNEC - "Some routine took the non-skip return, but did not give an error code by calling NTExxx. This means that the program returned to top level and field NXERR was zero. Determine which routine is failing, and make the error return give an error code." Has anybody else seen this? Is there a patch? It's getting a bit annoying, not to mention that it keeps crash dumping. Thanks, Bob

3 years, 7 months

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Kermit-20 DECnet Implementation

by tommytimesharing＠gmail.com

I needed to have a separate transport mechanism for testing both the Tops-10 and Tops-20 FAL, NFT and DAP implementations.? I wanted to be able to compare files to make sure I hadn't messed anything up.? I also thought that a speed comparison might perhaps be of interest, but otherwise not directly useful. I've modified K20MIT to be able to transfer files both over DECnet Network Remote Terminals and pseudo-terminals.? I did the pseudo-terminal part first so I could debug the alternate line code more easily without having any DECnet issues getting in the way.? Once I'm satisfied that Kermit will transfer over a non-physical line, I can rule out any problems I have debugging the DECnet code.? In other words, I'll know that, whatever issue I bump into, it will be reasonable to assume that it is related to NRT transport and not anything Kermit is doing. Right now, a lot of sparks have come flying out because I am taking code that is nearly 40 years old that grew up dealing with with a DH11 front end line and wrenching it into using virtual terminals.? However, earlier this evening, I had my first pseudo-terminal transfer.? The file was the ASCII text for Ralph Gorin's "Introduction to Assembler Language Programming" book. This is about 1.5 megabytes long and takes up 621 pages on disk, which I imagined would be a 'reasonable' size.?? Kermit says it clocked about 815 Kbps doing the transfer, but I really wouldn't have any idea what that number means.? A FILCOM shows that the files match to the byte, which is the important part.? Details below. ??? ?T ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kermit-20>*connect* [KERMIT-20: Loopback connection to VENTI2:: via PTY7: using TTY22:, type <CTRL-\>C to return.] Kermit-20>*set delay 15* Kermit-20>*server* Kermit Server running on DEC-20 host. Please type your escape sequence to return to your local machine. Shut down the server by typing the BYE command to KERMIT on your local machine. [KERMIT-20: Returning to local system, VENTI2::] Kermit-20>*show line* TTY for file transfer: 22 (assigned TTY line, KERMIT-20 is _LOCAL_) Handshake: None Flow-Control: XON-XOFF Parity: None Duplex: Full Speed: (Unknown) Break Simulation: Disabled TVT Binary: On TVT Negotiate: Automatic Log: (none) Kermit-20>*cwd ps:<slogin>* [Connected to TOMMYT:<SLOGIN>] Kermit-20>*send doc:tops20_ASSEMBLER_PROGRAMMING.TXT.1 (as) * Kermit-20>*statistics* Maximum number of characters in packet: 80 received; 80 sent Number of characters transmitted in 19 seconds Sent: 1711619 Overhead: 124378 Received: 138712 Overhead: 138712 Total: 1850331 Overhead: 263090 Total characters transmitted per second: 97385 Effective data rate: _835390_ bps ILDB: 0 SIN: 0 SIN Max: 0 BIN: 138712 Interpacket pause in effect: 0 sec Timeouts: 0 NAKs: 0 Kermit-20>*push* [KERMIT-20: PUSHing to new EXEC.] [POP from Exec to return.] @*vdir /since today* TOMMYT:<SLOGIN> TOPS20_ASSEMBLER_PROGRAMMING.TXT.1;P774200 621 1587241(7) 13-Nov-2021 17:29:35 SLOGIN Total of 621 pages in 1 file @*defINE f1: (AS) doc:tops20_ASSEMBLER_PROGRAMMING.TXT.0 * @*defINE f2: (AS) h:tops20_aSSEMBLER_PROGRAMMING.TXT.0* @*filcom* **tty:=f1:,f2:* _No differences encountered_ **^Z* @

3 years, 7 months

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Tops-20 Anonymous FAL

by tommytimesharing＠gmail.com

As shipped, the Tops-20 FAL does not implement the idea of a default account.? So you can't use it unless you have something valid to type into the user and password fields.? I changed all that and the candidate implementation has been up on VENTI2:: for a few days to allow Bob to pull some Kermit-10 sources that I got from the Kermit project. This is tested code, yet something between maybe an alpha and beta version with debugging hooks, Etc. I noted that some have people used it, which I think is *great!* If you bump into any problems or thing something doesn't work right, please drop me a note.? Recall that Tops-20 DAP does not implement RENAME (which I don't allow in anonymous, anyway) If you want the Kermit-10 sources, then you want to use the K10MIT: system logical, viz: VENTI2::K10MIT:*.* will show you the goodies.

3 years, 7 months

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DECnet/Python

by fsword007＠gmail.com

Folks, I successfully installed DECnet/Python on Ubuntu 21.10 system and was successfully connected to HECnet. I have a few questions about DECnet/Python. I choose that because it support virtual circuits like Multinet over TCP, etc.. I can't find any apps (programs) to support DECnet/Python like login, set host, dir, etc. Only DECnet for Linux has programs. Does DECnet for Raspberry Pi work with Ubuntu 21.10 (Linux 5.13 for x86)? Tim

3 years, 8 months

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Is this the most up to date version of DECnet OS numbers?

by tommytimesharing＠gmail.com

Since its inception, Kermit-20 (one the first three Kermit implementations) has had the 'limitation' that it will only talk to a remote Kermit via a physical terminal line (I.E., something like TTY6:).? It doesn't do network terminals in part because it has no code to handle the out-of-band or meta-data that one finds on TVT's (like IAC's) or CTERM's. This doesn't exist for the early NRT terminals which were implemented for Tops-10 and Tops-20.? Once you've read the initial configuration message and decided what to do, you basically never have to bother with meta-data.? Because I'm trying to look at an NFT issue between Tops-10 and Tops-20, I needed another transport mechanism and modifying Kermit-20 to do DECnet 36 NRT's seemed like an easy hack.? Since Tops-10 Kermit isn't making an outgoing connection, it is none the wiser. Thus far, it has been fairly straightforward.? Right now I'm just catching the few cases where certain operations don't make sense or otherwise wouldn't work (like setting the terminal speed). Another thing I'd like to prevent is Kermit-20 bothering non-36 bit systems.? This is easily enough done by checking some 'magic' bits in the initial configuration message and restricting by OS type.? This raises two questions: First, is the list below complete?? What about Ultrix and ... what else? ?1??? RSTS ?2??? RT-11 ?3??? RSTS/E ?4??? RSX-11S ?5??? RSX-11M ?6??? RSX-11D ?7??? IAS ?8??? VMS ?9??? TOPS-20 10??? TOPS-10 11??? RTS-8 12??? OS-8 13??? RSX-11M+ 14??? MCB Second, the configuration isn't well documented.? Actually, I'm not sure if it's documented, period.? All I have is are some notes that Johnny wrote up in the process of reverse-engineering it and very kindly gave me.? They are certainly fine for this particular implementation, but I was just wondering what else there might be. Plenty for LAT and CTERM, but I don't think I've stumbled over NRT.

3 years, 8 months

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TOPS-10 D-Day, DECnet failure on November 9th is less than six days away --> 10-nov-2021

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

L.S. Decnet still running here without bugs on 5 tops10 and one 4 Tops20 of which 1 is a Panda and 3 are even Tops20 V4.1. So have to check the code if repairs were already in place a long time ago ... Best regards, Reindert -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Paul Koning Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2021 15:23 To: hecnet at update.uu.se Subject: Re: [HECnet] TOPS-10 D-Day, DECnet failure on November 9th is less than six days away > On Nov 7, 2021, at 7:03 PM, Thomas DeBellis <tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote: > > Ugh, the larger ones all made a racket, even an 11/05 in a rack. An 11/40 really did, particularly did because you had sit close to it to use the GT40. I don't remember an 8/E being that bad. > > But 10's and 20's? Ouch. The machine room at Marlboro that I used had a pile of KL's, KI's and a KA in it. 2116, 2012, 2136, 1031 come to mind, but there had to be three times that list. What a racket. One of the nice features of CDC mainframes (the 60 bit machines) is that they were rather quiet. That's because the mainframe was liquid cooled, with water cooling of the refrigeration machinery. Only external boxes like the console and outboard peripheral controllers had cooling fans. The machines I worked on had the disk drives in another room (one floor down) which put all that noise away from the operators. Being able to talk to your colleagues without shouting was quite nice. paul

3 years, 8 months

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