15 Nov
2021
15 Nov
'21
10:15 p.m.
Johnny's FIX.T20 HECnet node list works on TOPS-10 as well (same NCP, same
commands), BUT there's an issue.
What you'd really like to do is to put something like "TAKE HECNET.CMD"
inside of [1,4]SYSTEM.CMD. The latter is executed automatically at boot
time and this would let you define all HECnet nodes when you start up.
However OPR (at least the version with TOPS-10 7.04) doesn't allow nested
TAKE commands, so the "TAKE HECNET." inside of SYSTEM.CMD fails.
Has somebody figured out a trick to get around this?
Bob
15 Nov
15 Nov
10:32 p.m.
Bob,
How about:
Put Johnnys file in INI:NODNAM.INI
.R NODNAM
-P
From: "bob" <bob at jfcl.com>
To: "hecnet" <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 4:15:09 PM
Subject: [HECnet] DEfining HECnet node names on TOPS-10
Johnny?s FIX.T20 HECnet node list works on TOPS-10 as
well (same NCP, same
commands), BUT there?s an issue.
What you?d really like to do is to put something like
?TAKE HECNET.CMD? inside
of [1,4]SYSTEM.CMD. The latter is executed automatically at boot time and this
would let you define all HECnet nodes when you start up. However OPR (at least
the version with TOPS-10 7.04) doesn?t allow nested TAKE commands, so the ?TAKE
HECNET?? inside of SYSTEM.CMD fails.
Has somebody figured out a trick to get around this?
Bob
10:58 p.m.
that;s one way. it runs and terminates. It will do the whole thing
in a second or two, compared to excercising the IPC system with opr/ncp...
-P
From: "bob" <bob at jfcl.com>
To: "hecnet" <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 4:44:26 PM
Subject: RE: [HECnet] DEfining HECnet node names on TOPS-10
> Put Johnnys file in INI:NODNAM.INI
> .R NODNAM
Never heard of NODNAM before!
How do you get it to run automatically at startup? Put
it in SYSJOB.INI?
Bob
11:04 p.m.
On 11/15/21 4:58 PM, Peter Lothberg wrote:
that;s one way.? it runs and terminates. It will do
the whole thing
in a second or two, compared to excercising the IPC system with opr/ncp...
Yes ... there is some way to "schedule" it, not TAKE it directly which
produces "-- Auto Take error on line XX -- Nested take commands are
illegal":
/"The ORION program does an automatic TAKE of SYSTEM.CMD, which can then
schedule a TAKE of NCP.CMD. (See the TOPS-19 Operator's Guide for
information on GALAXY and OPR.)"/
-P
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"bob" <bob at jfcl.com>
*To: *"hecnet" <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
*Sent: *Monday, November 15, 2021 4:44:26 PM
*Subject: *RE: [HECnet] DEfining HECnet node names on TOPS-10
--
Put Johnnys file in INI:NODNAM.INI
.R NODNAM
Never heard of NODNAM before!
? How do you get it to run automatically at startup? Put it in
SYSJOB.INI?
Bob
11:05 p.m.
One NODNAM tip for those who might follow ? it doesn?t like Johnny?s ?set nod ??; it
only likes ?SET NODE ??. It just ignores lines it doesn?t understand!
Gonna try the SYSJOB thing now?
Bob
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Peter Lothberg
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 1:58 PM
To: hecnet
Subject: Re: [HECnet] DEfining HECnet node names on TOPS-10
that;s one way. it runs and terminates. It will do the whole thing
in a second or two, compared to excercising the IPC system with opr/ncp...
-P
_____
From: "bob" <bob at jfcl.com>
To: "hecnet" <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 4:44:26 PM
Subject: RE: [HECnet] DEfining HECnet node names on TOPS-10
Put Johnnys file in INI:NODNAM.INI
.R NODNAM
Never heard of NODNAM before!
How do you get it to run automatically at startup? Put it in SYSJOB.INI?
Bob
11:16 p.m.
A problem of case? I can change it all to uppercase if that helps...
Johnny
On 2021-11-15 23:05, Robert Armstrong wrote:
? One NODNAM tip for those who might follow ? it
doesn?t like Johnny?s
?set nod ??; it only likes ?SET NODE ??.?? It just ignores lines it
doesn?t understand!
? Gonna try the SYSJOB thing now?
Bob
*From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] *On
Behalf Of *Peter Lothberg
*Sent:* Monday, November 15, 2021 1:58 PM
*To:* hecnet
*Subject:* Re: [HECnet] DEfining HECnet node names on TOPS-10
that;s one way.? it runs and terminates. It will do the whole thing
in a second or two, compared to excercising the IPC system with opr/ncp...
-P
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"bob" <bob at jfcl.com>
*To: *"hecnet" <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
*Sent: *Monday, November 15, 2021 4:44:26 PM
*Subject: *RE: [HECnet] DEfining HECnet node names on TOPS-10
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Put Johnnys file in INI:NODNAM.INI
.R NODNAM
? Never heard of NODNAM before!
? How do you get it to run automatically at startup?? Put it in
SYSJOB.INI?
Bob
11:29 p.m.
On 11/15/21 5:26 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
... and sort by address, please?
A problem of
case? I can change it all to uppercase if that helps...
.. and also don't
abbreviate ("NODE" not "NOD"). The "RETURN" at the end is
also not needed, although NODNAM will ignore that. Bob
--
11:54 p.m.
On 2021-11-15 23:29, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
On 11/15/21 5:26 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
... and sort by address, please?
Can certainly do that, but why do people care? You are not supposed to
read that file yourself anyway. :-)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
A problem
of case? I can change it all to uppercase if that helps...
.. and also don't
abbreviate ("NODE" not "NOD"). The "RETURN" at the end is
also not needed, although NODNAM will ignore that.
12:05 a.m.
On 2021-11-16 00:00, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
On 11/15/21 5:54 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
920 nodes at the moment...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Can certainly do that, but why do people care?
You are not supposed to
read that file yourself anyway. :-)
Don't know about you, but I memorize it. 
1:39 a.m.
On Nov 15, 2021, at 3:07 PM, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
Can certainly do that, but why do people care? You are not supposed to read that file
yourself anyway. :-)
I put music to it, and sing it. Do you want to listen
to me singing the HECnet Node Song?
The sad thing is, I?m not certain if you?re joking.
Zane
Don't know about you, but I memorize it.
920 nodes at the moment...
3:26 p.m.
New subject: The HECnet Area-31 Node Name Song (was Re: DEfining HECnet node names on TOPS-10)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyTFcS9YYM0
Comes with lyrics.
(My own nodes only, don't want to upset others on Area-31).
:)
On 11/15/21 7:39 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
--
On Nov 15, 2021, at 3:07 PM, Supratim
Sanyal<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
Can certainly do that, but why do people care? You are not supposed to read that file
yourself anyway. :-)
I put music to
it, and sing it. Do you want to listen to me singing the HECnet Node Song?
The sad
thing is, I?m not certain if you?re joking.
Zane
Don't
know about you, but I memorize it.
920 nodes at the moment...
4:14 p.m.
New subject: The HECnet Area-31 Node Name Song (was Re: DEfining HECnet node names on TOPS-10)
That was horrible! :-D
Johnny
On 2021-11-16 15:26, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyTFcS9YYM0
Comes with lyrics.
(My own nodes only, don't want to upset others on Area-31).
:)
On 11/15/21 7:39 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
--
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Nov
15, 2021, at 3:07 PM, Supratim Sanyal<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
Can certainly do that, but why do people care? You are not supposed to read that file
yourself anyway. :-)
The sad thing is, I?m not certain if you?re
joking.
Zane
> Don't know about you, but I memorize it.
920 nodes at the moment...
I put music to it, and sing it. Do you want to listen
to me singing the HECnet Node Song? 
5:07 p.m.
New subject: The HECnet Area-31 Node Name Song (was Re: DEfining HECnet node names on TOPS-10)
My ears are bleeding :)
Ian
On Nov 16, 2021, at 7:14 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyTFcS9YYM0
1:13 a.m.
The RETURN depends on how Thomas is structuring his command files, but if
it makes him happy then leave it. It's ignored by the NODNAM program.
I agree with Supratim that I'd prefer sorted by address, but it hardly
matters (and the NODNAM program doesn't care at all). The main reason I
like it sorted by address is because I occasionally cut out a subset (e.g.
all the area 2 nodes) for testing, and that's impossible when sorted by
name.
Meta-X sort-lines-region (or sort-lines-buffer) goes a long way though,
although since you don't put leading zeros or spaces on the area number
sorting lexically produces some unexpected orderings.
Bob
1:33 a.m.
On 11/15/21 7:13 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Meta-X sort-lines-region (or sort-lines-buffer)
goes a long way though,
although since you don't put leading zeros or spaces on the area number
sorting lexically produces some unexpected orderings.
M-x sort-numeric-fields
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
2:35 a.m.
On 11/15/21 8:09 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
M-x sort-numeric-fields takes a field number argument that defaults
to 1. To sort numerically by the node address in the above format, do this:
M-3 M-x sort-numeric-fields
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
M-x
sort-numeric-fields
The line has mixed text and numbers - does that work here? E.g.
SET NODE 2.1234 NAME FOO
9:49 a.m.
On 2021-11-16 02:35, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 11/15/21 8:09 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
? M-x sort-numeric-fields takes a field number argument that defaults
to 1.? To sort numerically by the node address in the above format, do
this:
? M-3 M-x sort-numeric-fields
And by now, the file have already been sorted for 12h...
All I needed to add in my makefile was a "SORT CURRENT BY AREA,NUMBER"
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
?? M-x
sort-numeric-fields
?? The line has mixed text and numbers - does that work here?? E.g.
????SET NODE 2.1234 NAME FOO 
2:39 a.m.
It doesn't have to do with Thomas since about a year.? I fixed the DEC
SETNOD and the problem doesn't happen in my rewrite.
It has to do with the rest of the Tops-20 folks, should they ever decide
to update their node tables.
On 11/15/21 7:13 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
The RETURN depends on how Thomas is structuring his
command files, but if
it makes him happy then leave it. It's ignored by the NODNAM program.
I agree with Supratim that I'd prefer sorted by address, but it hardly
matters (and the NODNAM program doesn't care at all). The main reason I
like it sorted by address is because I occasionally cut out a subset (e.g.
all the area 2 nodes) for testing, and that's impossible when sorted by
name.
Meta-X sort-lines-region (or sort-lines-buffer) goes a long way though,
although since you don't put leading zeros or spaces on the area number
sorting lexically produces some unexpected orderings.
Bob
15 Nov
15 Nov
11:53 p.m.
Consider it done. New file available in a minute...
But the RETURN was asked for by Thomas, who clams it is essential...
Johnny
On 2021-11-15 23:26, Robert Armstrong wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
A problem of
case? I can change it all to uppercase if that helps...
.. and also don't abbreviate ("NODE" not "NOD"). The
"RETURN" at the end is also not needed, although NODNAM will ignore that.
Bob
16 Nov
16 Nov
2:31 a.m.
It's only essential on DEC standard SETNOD (see previous)
My rewrite stops parsing on end of file, just like grown up programs,
OPR and friends.
On 11/15/21 5:53 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Consider it done. New file available in a minute...
But the RETURN was asked for by Thomas, who clams it is essential...
? Johnny
On 2021-11-15 23:26, Robert Armstrong wrote:
A problem
of case? I can change it all to uppercase if that helps...
?? .. and also don't abbreviate ("NODE" not "NOD").? The
"RETURN" at
the end is also not needed, although NODNAM will ignore that.
Bob
2:30 a.m.
/What??/
Case?!? Order?!? Abbreviations?!? What the heck is this? /Real/ programs
don't care about any of that!
The return was necessary because Tops-20 DEC standard SETNOD would
gracefully signal end-of-input file by going into an endless loop.? It
would also be appropriate in OPR if you did an ENTER NCP, first and then
end-of-file file would put you back into the main OPR parse level.? The
formats are similar enough that they could be parsed by OPR for the
volatile definitions and SETNOD for for the permanent ones.
However, if you used the text file on boot, that would probably slow
down system availability by about 5 to 10 seconds (if you were waiting
on Galaxy to set logins).? Galaxy has a bunch of stuff to do before its
ready for OPR. These commands then have to be parsed by OPR using COMND%
which is not that efficient, then sent via IPCF% to Orion, when then has
to IPCF% NML. Not fast...
I can really only think of one reason to order the node file, but it is
neither by name or number.? While the binary file is loaded into the
monitor with one NODE% JSYS, the monitor does not load it in the order I
write it.? The internal monitor tables are hash based.
If you reverse engineer the hashing algorithm and you look at the
instruction paths, then maybe (/maybe/) you could optimally order the
binary file to minimize the impact of certain clash operations on load.?
For some bizarre reason, I haven't asked Johnny to sort the text file in
hash order...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 11/15/21 5:26 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
A problem of
case? I can change it all to uppercase if that helps...
.. and also don't
abbreviate ("NODE" not "NOD"). The "RETURN" at the end is
also not needed, although NODNAM will ignore that.
Bob
906
days inactive
907
days old
25 comments
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participants (8)
-
bob＠jfcl.com -
bqt＠softjar.se -
healyzh＠avanthar.com -
ian＠platinum.net -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
roll＠stupi.com -
supratim＠riseup.net -
tommytimesharing＠gmail.com