On Nov 10, 2021, at 6:47 AM, Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net> wrote: On 11/10/21 5:14 AM, Keith Halewood wrote: No such errors on 31.28 (RST101) either. /s. -- <SANYALNET-LABS-QR-CODE.png>

On Nov 10, 2021, at 9:16 AM, Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net> wrote: On 11/10/21 9:01 AM, Paul Koning wrote: FAL says "27-Oct-34", show date looks correct (assuming not 1921). Event type 33.0, Remote file access Occurred 27-Oct-34 14:11:53.7 on node 31.28 (RST101) Access: Local Function: OPEN/Read Remote node = 0 (RST101) Remote process = 0 1 2 NFT002 Local process = 17 50 1 FAL006 User = 50,1 File accessed = 1 SY:[50,1]INFO.TXT $ $ $ $ show date ? 10-Nov-21 02:12 PM -- <SANYALNET-LABS-QR-CODE.png>

On Nov 10, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net> wrote: Thanks Paul, understood. I realized it's the logger after sending the email. I will patch RST101 with Tony's copy on DINGO. Thanks Tony too for hosting it. Anyway looks like it is limited to logger messages, RSTS/E itself happily stays on air. Off-topic - Paul, do you think DECnet/Python might be made to have a unique feature whereby I could do something like this from OpenVMS 7.3: MC NCP TELL PYRTR SHOW PAULSCOOLPING KARMA and get back Paul's Cool Ping Summary as of 10-NOV-2021 21:40:56 Node State Circuit Next node 31.2 (KARMA) Reachable VDE-31 31.1023 (IMPRTR) or in the format CISCO repond: IMPRTR>ping decnet karma Type escape sequence to abort. Sending 5, 100-byte DECnet echos to atg 0 area.node 31.2, timeout is 5 seconds: !!!!! Success rate is 100 percent (5/5), round-trip min/avg/max = 12/24/44 ms

On Nov 9, 2021, at 6:44 PM, Tony Nicholson <tony.nicholson at computer.org> wrote: With the recent talk about the magic 9-Nov-2021 date affecting TOPS-10, I notice today that my RSTS/E V10.1 system has started putting out console messages - ?EVTLOG (BLDNIC) -- %Integer error

On Nov 10, 2021, at 4:10 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: On 2021-11-10 21:22, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Nov 9, 2021, at 6:44 PM, Tony Nicholson <

>> >> With the recent talk about the magic 9-Nov-2021 date affecting

May I suggest that you create some official place where RSTS/E patches

On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 at 11:31, Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net> wrote: Copied from GALAH, the copy at DINGO doesn't have read permission. Fixed permissions - I thought I had protected them against writing/not reading. Blame finger memory not engaging with my brain. Tony -- Tony Nicholson <tony.nicholson at computer.org>

On 11/11/21 7:14 AM, Steve Davidson wrote: NETUPDATE.COM (VMS only) checks two things: first it checks the record against the current node name and if equal skips the record. Second, if the database is being run against a cluster then it additionally ignores all of the nodes in that area. This way all of the Satellite information is not altered thus rendering satellite boot non functional.

Similar behavior for the first case could probably be applied in most of the command line interpreters. -Steve SF:IP2 >> On Nov 11, 2021, at 06:30, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: >> >> ?Tony, >> >>> On 2021-11-11 10:30, Tony Nicholson wrote: >>> Johnny, >>> Under RSTS/E I?ve found I can use FIX.CMD, but I have to comment the definition for the current node and add a missing definition for MIM. >> Ah. Yes, similar "problem" as with RSX in that the own node won't work. That's the reason MIM is not in there. I should create a different one for others. FIX.CMD is where I started, and it is very tailored to my own use. >> >> Then duplicate the definitions changing the ?def nod? to ?set nod? and feed it into NCP. > Maybe you should look at FIX.COM? > >> When I update pydecnet using a new nodenames.dat I also use >> $ ncp copy known nodes from TNRTR to both >> (TNRTR Is my pydecnet router) > That definitely works in VMS. Does that also work in RSTS/E? > > With that said, while generated command files are all nice and good, for at least VMS and RSX, I would actually recommend people use the provided DECnet tools instead. > > > In RSX: > >> RUN LB:[5,54]NNCFSL > and collect the nodes from MIM, and then: > > SCP STOP > SCP START > > and you have the new nodenames in there. > > > In VMS (as mentioned above): > > $ NCP COPY KNOWN NODES FROM MIM TO BOTH > > If the VMS solution also works in RSTS/E that is really nice. > > Johnny > >> Tony >> On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 at 19:54, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se <mailto:bqt at softjar.se>> wrote: >> If a specific format is needed for RSTS/E nodes, I can create that >> format file whenever the nodename database is updated. Just let me know >> what the format should be. >> At the moment, the following files are created: >> FIX.T20 (for TOPS-20) >> FIX.COM <http://FIX.COM> (for VMS) >> HECNET.PY (for PyDECnet) >> FIX.CMD (for RSX) >> All can be found at MIM::HECNET: >> Johnny >> -- >> Tony Nicholson <tony.nicholson at computer.org <mailto:tony.nicholson at computer.org>> > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Johnny, Under RSTS/E I?ve found I can use FIX.CMD, but I have to comment the definition for the current node and add a missing definition for MIM.

Then duplicate the definitions changing the ?def nod? to ?set nod? and feed it into NCP.

When I update pydecnet using a new nodenames.dat I also use $ ncp copy known nodes from TNRTR to both (TNRTR Is my pydecnet router)

RUN LB:[5,54]NNCFSL

Tony On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 at 19:54, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se <mailto:bqt at softjar.se>> wrote: ??? If a specific format is needed for RSTS/E nodes, I can create that ??? format file whenever the nodename database is updated. Just let me know ??? what the format should be. ??? At the moment, the following files are created: ??? FIX.T20 (for TOPS-20) ??? FIX.COM <http://FIX.COM> (for VMS) ??? HECNET.PY (for PyDECnet) ??? FIX.CMD (for RSX) ??? All can be found at MIM::HECNET: ???? ? ?Johnny -- Tony Nicholson <tony.nicholson at computer.org <mailto:tony.nicholson at computer.org>>

If a specific format is needed for RSTS/E nodes, I can create that format file whenever the nodename database is updated. Just let me know what the format should be.

At the moment, the following files are created: FIX.T20 (for TOPS-20) FIX.COM (for VMS) HECNET.PY (for PyDECnet) FIX.CMD (for RSX) All can be found at MIM::HECNET: ? Johnny On 2021-11-11 02:20, Supratim Sanyal wrote:

Surpatim, check out MIM::HECNET:FIX.RST if it looks good.

(I'm also open for another name of the file, if wanted...) ? Johnny On 2021-11-11 14:36, Supratim Sanyal wrote:

Surpatim, check out MIM::HECNET:FIX.RST if it looks good.

(I'm also open for another name of the file, if wanted...) ? Johnny On 2021-11-11 14:36, Supratim Sanyal wrote:

On Nov 11, 2021, at 9:52 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: ?On 2021-11-11 15:17, Supratim Sanyal wrote: It is sorted. Currently by name. Do you want it sorted some other way? It's just one more line of Datatrieve, so it's super trivial.

If a specific format is needed for RSTS/E nodes, I can create that format file whenever the nodename database is updated. Just let me know what the format should be.

It's part of the DECnet management specification, but the implementations vary.? There is a "permanent" and "volatile" database; the volatile one lasts only for a single DECnet run. DEFINE and PURGE operate on the permanent database, SET and CLEAR on the volatile.

In RSTS, both are manipuated by NCP.? In some other DECnet implementations, the permanent database operations are in a different program but use the standard syntax; I think RSX does it that way.

So /that's/ the difference between SET and DEFINE?? Gee, that's deluxe! What a great idea! If you will look at my previous batch log, you will see that I only update the running system node database with the set difference from the previous week's node file. There is no way to 'restart' DECnet on Tops-20 without a reboot.? Once you set certain items and the Executor starts, that's it for the run of the operating system. Further, there are no NODE% functions to either purge the entire running database nor retrieve it into user memory, which keeps striking me as perhaps an arbitrary limitation. On the other hand, unless I am doing monitor development, I never have any reason to reboot and rarely crash, so the difference would be largely moot to me, absent renaming or renaming the local Executor.? Right now, TOMMY ('Production') is up over 7,171 hours while VENTI2 (active development) is up over 3,428 hours. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 11/11/21 9:09 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Nov 11, 2021, at 8:36 AM, Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net> >> wrote: >> >> On 11/11/21 3:53 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >>> If a specific format is needed for RSTS/E nodes, I can create that >>> format file whenever the nodename database is updated. Just let me >>> know what the format should be. >>> >> $ type defnod.cmd >> *SET VER** >> **SET NOON** >> **NCP DEFINE NODE 1.1 NAME MAGICA** >> **NCP DEFINE NODE 1.2 NAME ERNIE** >> **NCP DEFINE NODE 1.3 NAME FNATTE** >> **...** >> **...** >> **NCP DEFINE NODE 62.637 NAME CTAKAH** >> **NCP SET NODE 1.1 NAME MAGICA** >> **NCP SET NODE 1.2 NAME ERNIE** >> **NCP SET NODE 1.3 NAME FNATTE** >> **...** >> **...** >> **NCP SET NODE 62.637 NAME CTAKAH* >> > The "set" commands are a nice additional item but the define > commands are the important part. ?If you include the set commands > the running system is updated at that time; if you leave them out, > it will be up to date at the next DECnet restart. > > paul >

Hmm, if I'm understanding you correctly, then I'm not sure I would agree with you, 100%.? Recall the binary file I build?? This is dumped /directly/ into the monitor on reboot, there is no re-parse of the .T20 file; that only ever gets looked at precisely once. 21:05:28 USER?? SETNODE>*Save /NO-ACCESS /RESTRICTED 21:05:28 USER 21:05:28 USER?? [Fork SETND2 opening ? for writing restricted] 21:05:28 USER?? [Saving to binary file: *TOMMYT:<SYSTEM>NODE-DATA.BIN.1 *;PROCESS-ONLY-JFN:2 ;RD ;WR ;BSZ:36 ] This resulting .BIN file is ? the size of the .T20 file and goes into the monitor with a single NODE% JSYS, so there is only a single context switch.? The monitor does some validation of the entries before putting them into the hash table.? Naturally, I can also read the binary file and reconstruct the text file: SETNODE>GET (binary node definition file) *SYSTEM:NODE-DATA.BIN*/no-ACCESS /pagE-MAP /unrESTRICTED-READ /prelOAD Mapped 4 pages, 1830 Words, 915 Nodes. SETNODE>RECONSTRUCT (node keyword tables from binary table) /silENT [Closed log file: NUL:] I think the only faster way to do this would be to save the Monitor's volatile hash table directly to disk and read it back in on reboot.? If you check it as you read, then you might be back down to the .BIN file input speeds, which are clearly faster than doing the parse of the .T20 file; a lot faster. If you don't check then you might not be able to boot if it gets funny data in it.? Or maybe you could do minimal checking. However, I do think that the idea of a seperate volatile and permanent database is a very good idea.? You could do that with my SETNODE rewrite, but /only/ if /nothing/ else was touching either node store (like a remote NCP).? I think the other implementations are probably far cleaner in this regard. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 11/11/21 4:59 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > This is actually one thing I've found annoying with TOPS-20. > > With VMS, as well as PDP-11 OSes, you have both a volatile and a > permanent database. > > For the volatile db, the commands are: > SET > CLEAR > SHOW > > For the permanent db, the commands are: > DEFINE > PURGE > LIST > > Exactly the same syntax and everything, but one affects what you > have right now, and the other only affects what is stored > permanently, and is used when the system starts to populate the > volatile db. > > With TOPS-20 seems you always have to run through the definitions > when you boot. > > ? Johnny > > On 2021-11-11 21:56, Thomas DeBellis wrote: >> So /that's/ the difference between SET and DEFINE?? Gee, that's >> deluxe! What a great idea! >> >> If you will look at my previous batch log, you will see that I only >> update the running system node database with the set difference >> from the previous week's node file. >> >> There is no way to 'restart' DECnet on Tops-20 without a reboot.? >> Once you set certain items and the Executor starts, that's it for >> the run of the operating system. Further, there are no NODE% >> functions to either purge the entire running database nor retrieve >> it into user memory, which keeps striking me as perhaps an >> arbitrary limitation. >> >> On the other hand, unless I am doing monitor development, I never >> have any reason to reboot and rarely crash, so the difference would >> be largely moot to me, absent renaming or renaming the local >> Executor.? Right now, TOMMY ('Production') is up over 7,171 hours >> while VENTI2 (active development) is up over 3,428 hours. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> On 11/11/21 9:09 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 11, 2021, at 8:36 AM, Supratim Sanyal >>>> <supratim at riseup.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> On 11/11/21 3:53 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> >>>>> If a specific format is needed for RSTS/E nodes, I can create >>>>> that format file whenever the nodename database is updated. Just >>>>> let me know what the format should be. >>>>> >>>> $ type defnod.cmd >>>> *SET VER** >>>> **SET NOON** >>>> **NCP DEFINE NODE 1.1 NAME MAGICA** >>>> **NCP DEFINE NODE 1.2 NAME ERNIE** >>>> **NCP DEFINE NODE 1.3 NAME FNATTE** >>>> **...** >>>> **...** >>>> **NCP DEFINE NODE 62.637 NAME CTAKAH** >>>> **NCP SET NODE 1.1 NAME MAGICA** >>>> **NCP SET NODE 1.2 NAME ERNIE** >>>> **NCP SET NODE 1.3 NAME FNATTE** >>>> **...** >>>> **...** >>>> **NCP SET NODE 62.637 NAME CTAKAH* >>>> >>> The "set" commands are a nice additional item but the define >>> commands are the important part. ?If you include the set commands >>> the running system is updated at that time; if you leave them out, >>> it will be up to date at the next DECnet restart. >>> >>> paul >>> >

It's not uncommon or it least it didn't used to be.? Here are three examples: First, I believe early versions of Smalltalk did exactly this. Second, at WPI, we implemented two commands called freeze and thaw, which would take all the information in the currently running job (AC's, PC, open files, Etc.) and write them into a file.? You could ^C, freeze, come back later, thaw the .ICE file (frozen job, get it?) and be right where you were.? One common use was when a dial up was abruptly disconnected by call waiting.? The monitor would notice you were detached and perform a freeze on your behalf, thus both freeing up the job slot and not losing your work.? Saved me a bunch of TECO'ing.? It could have been extended to batch jobs running out of processor time, but I don't remember if it was. I liked it so much that I tried to implement it at Columbia for Tops-20.? Tried...? I think the problem I ran into was that I couldn't find out timers and get the same fork handles.? Or one of the problems. Another was security, which I'll discuss below. Third, at Columbia, it was used extensively in our chronically CPU starved environment: ? * The EXEC could save the PCL environment (but I think this originally ??? was part of the CMU implementation) ? * The mailing system keeps a binary file of forwarding bindings.? If ??? you edit the text source, the newer write date is noticed and the ??? binary is 'recompiled' ? * I lifted the feature for LPTSPL's LPFORM.INI parser when I realized ??? how often it was getting reparsed (basically after any idle period ??? between jobs) ?From the information security standpoint, you have to consider the usage of these kinds of files.? Obviously, you wouldn't want to thaw something with JACCT set unless the existing job had the ability to get that, was [1,2] without some fairly careful checking.? Ditto Tops-20, if the fork had capabilities.? I mean, if somebody could get write access to the binary, then they could potentially compromise system security with a little strategic FILDDT'ing (or EXAMINE and DEPOSIT, if it came to that). A 'legitimately' corrupt binary could also crash the fork on start up, but I don't recall as we ever fully addressed that.? I think a checksum would have been the obvious start, but I guess we didn't want to spend the cycles. In these days of multi-gigahertz processors, I don't see the children discussing it much at all. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > On 11/12/21 9:24 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > That's a bit like how RSX-11/D and IAS boot -- by reloading the image > of memory when you issued the SAV command. Pretty clever: you set > things up the way you want them to be, and then you make that state > persistent. > ????paul >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> On Nov 11, 2021, at 6:22 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> >> wrote: I must admit that I hadn't considered the possibility of just >> saving the core. Which of course can accomplish the same thing in a >> neat way. >>

That's a bit like how RSX-11/D and IAS boot -- by reloading the image of memory when you issued the SAV command. Pretty clever: you set things up the way you want them to be, and then you make that state persistent.

On Nov 12, 2021, at 10:57 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: On 2021-11-12 15:24, Paul Koning wrote: Same with -11M. But it's only used for the kernel. However, in TOPS-20 as well as some other DEC OSes, this is a common pattern for all programs.

On Nov 11, 2021, at 3:53 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: If a specific format is needed for RSTS/E nodes, I can create that format file whenever the nodename database is updated. Just let me know what the format should be. At the moment, the following files are created: FIX.T20 (for TOPS-20) FIX.COM <http://fix.com/>(for VMS) HECNET.PY (for PyDECnet) FIX.CMD (for RSX) All can be found at MIM::HECNET: ?Johnny On 2021-11-11 02:20, Supratim Sanyal wrote: -- Johnny Billquist ?????????????????|| "I'm on a bus ?????????????????????????????????|| ?on a psychedelic trip email:bqt at softjar.se????????????|| ?Reading murder books pdp is alive! ????????????????????|| ?tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol