On Oct 26, 2021, at 7:57 AM, fsword007 at gmail.com wrote: Folks, I successfully installed DECnet/Python on Ubuntu 21.10 system and was successfully connected to HECnet. I have a few questions about DECnet/Python.? I choose that because it support virtual circuits like Multinet over TCP, ?etc.. I can?t find any apps (programs) to support DECnet/Python like login, set host, dir, etc.? Only DECnet for Linux has programs. Does DECnet for Raspberry Pi work with Ubuntu 21.10 (Linux 5.13 for x86)?

Tim

I had 'a bit' of DECnet 'partly' running on an Ubuntu machine some time ago...? Well, not exactly: I only put LAT up because I wanted to test something and LAT isn't actually DECnet.? The Ubuntu host knows about everybody: ??? slogin at neptune:~$ sudo latcp -d -l -v ??? Service Name:??? NEPTUNE ??? Service Status:? Available ??? Service Ident:?? Linux 5.4.0-42-generic ??? Node Name??????? Status????? Rating?? Identification ??? NEPTUNE????????? Reachable?????? 10?? Linux 5.4.0-42-generic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ??? Service Name:??? TOMMYT ??? Service Status:? Available ??? Service Ident:?? TOMMYT, PANDA TOPS-20 Monitor 7.1(21740)-5 ??? Node Name??????? Status????? Rating?? Identification ??? TOMMYT?????????? Reachable??????? 1?? TOMMYT, PANDA TOPS-20 Monitor ??? 7.1(21740)-5 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ??? Service Name:??? VENTI2 ??? Service Status:? Available ??? Service Ident:?? VENTI2, PANDA TOPS-20 Monitor 7.1(21742)-5 ??? Node Name??????? Status????? Rating?? Identification ??? VENTI2?????????? Reachable??????? 1?? VENTI2, PANDA TOPS-20 Monitor ??? 7.1(21742)-5 ??? ---------------------------------- The 20's only seem to know about the Ubuntu host: ??? LCP>shoW serVER /alL ??? LCP> ??? 19:43:26 [LCP]??? ??? -- Summary of All Servers -- ??? Server Name(Number): NEPTUNE(0) Address: 6C-4B-90-3A-42-73 ??? LCP> ??? LCP>shoW servER NEPTUNE ??? LCP> ??? 19:41:10 [LCP]??? ??? -- Information About Server NEPTUNE -- ??? Server Number: 0 ??? Server Location: LATD for Linux ??? Server Type: VAX/VMS ??? Ethernet Address: 6C-4B-90-3A-42-73 ??? Server Status: Disconnected ??? Max Slots: 254 ??? Data Link Size: 1500 ??? Circuit Timer(ms): 80 ??? Keep-alive Timer(s): 20 ??? LCP>shoW couNTERS /serVER:NEPTUNE ??? LCP> ??? 19:40:36 [LCP]??? ??? -- Counters for Server NEPTUNE -- ??? Messages received: 2 ??? Messages transmitted: 1 ??? Messages retransmitted: 0 ??? Sequence errors received: 0 ??? Illegal messages received: 0 ??? Illegal slots received: 0 ??? Resource failures: 0 ??? LCP> At some point, I'm fairly certain I remember them being able to 'see' each other.? I had a Pathworks CD-ROM for Windows 2000, but I can't find that and the Windows 2000 laptop I was using has caught a very bad cold (I.E., it won't boot) llogin operation has been erratic.? At one point it worked mostly to the 20's, but was not stable.? Now it fails in one of two ways:? 1) To a 20, it fails silently with no error message at all.? 2) To an Ubuntu host, it succeeds in connecting, and then starts spewing, viz ??? slogin at neptune:~$ llogin neptune ??? Ubuntu 20.04.1 LTS ??? neptune login: Ubuntu 20.04.1 LTS ??? neptune login: ??? neptune login: sllllooooggggiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii I've never complained about it because I wanted to investigate further and maybe either fix what I was doing wrong (undoubtedly the real problem) or at least fix it to give better error diagnostics. I haven't looked at the 20's because I've been occupied fixing bugs of more direct concern to me. If the 20 had a LAT client, I might look further, but I don't what the scale of that work would be.? Right now, I'm trying to stay away from big projects and just finish the ones that I have in flight. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 10/26/21 3:11 PM, John Forecast wrote: > > >> On Oct 26, 2021, at 7:57 AM, fsword007 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> Folks, >> I successfully installed DECnet/Python on Ubuntu 21.10 system and >> was successfully connected to HECnet. >> I have a few questions about DECnet/Python.? I choose that because >> it support virtual circuits like Multinet over TCP, ?etc.. >> I can?t find any apps (programs) to support DECnet/Python like >> login, set host, dir, etc.? Only DECnet for Linux has programs. >> Does DECnet for Raspberry Pi work with Ubuntu 21.10 (Linux 5.13 for >> x86)? > > I?ve never tried Ubuntu but I have built DECnet for Raspberry Pi on > an older version of Debian x86 without any problems. My suggestion > would be to try it. Due to family medical issues I will be unable to > check it out until December at the earliest. > > ? John. >> Tim >

After I read your letter, I said to myself, "Gee, I don't ever remember setting anything..."? So I went and looked through the command files and the reason for that lapse of memory is ... I don't have a /single/ command in any command or configuration file for LAT. Not a one! The monitor enables LAT, NVT, NRT and CTERM terminal? services when you do a ^E SET LOGINS ANY. You can also enable them one at a time. Back when I had a Pathworks CD-ROM and a working Windows 2000 box, Windows 2000 Kermit could make a connection just fine, so I never bothered thinking anything further about that part of it, assuming that the monitor was supplying itself with reasonable defaults.? If I take a look at the characteristics of the local LAT host, I see the following: ??? LCP>shoW chARACTERISTICS ??? LCP> ??? 17:28:53 [LCP]??? ??? -- Host Characteristics -- ??? LAT Access State: ON ??? Host Name: TOMMYT ??? Host id: TOMMYT, PANDA TOPS-20 Monitor 7.1(21740)-5 ??? Host number: 520 ??? Retransmit Limit: 60 ??? Retransmit Timer: 1000 ??? Multicast Timer: 30 ??? Groups: 0 ???? ???????????????????? Current?? Maximum ???? ???????????????????? -------?? ------- ??? Allocated circuits?????? 0??????? 32 ??? Active circuits????????? 0??????? 20 ??? Sessions???????????????? 0???????? 5 ???? ??? Service Name?????? Rating??????? Identification ??? --------------------?? ------ ------------------------ ??? TOMMYT?????????????????? 1????? TOMMYT, PANDA TOPS-20 Monitor ??? 7.1(21740)-5 ??? LCP> I don't see anything in there about service groups.? Let me go see if I have an Tops-20 specific documentation for LAT configuration and see about groups.? Otherwise, I'll put that aside for the moment as I am just coming out of a very deep rabbit hole. What kind of a bunny hole?? Well... In order to debug something in ALGOTS, I needed symbols and set up a Program Data Vector (PDV) so DDT could grab them.? That was easy enough because LINK did the work for me.? However, the problem in ALGOTS indicated that something had gone amiss in PA1050 (Tops-20's TOPS-10 UUO emulator). However, I couldn't have LINK do the job for me there because PA1050 BLT's itself around in the virtual address space in a postlude. The code appears to predate .PSECT's. So what LINK would put in would be wrong.? Therefore I crafted a PDV for PA1050 by hand in the postlude which promptly hung DDT solid... I'm just about done fixing DDT so I can figure out what it is that PA1050 is doing that ALGOTS doesn't like, fix that and then get back to fixing ALGOTS. So it goes... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 10/28/21 4:25 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > First of all, check what service groups you have enabled on the '20, > since that normally will limit what is shown. > > Service groups is a LAT specific thingy, so you might need to go and > dig deep into LAT specific things here... > > Second, I've had plenty of issues using llogin from Linux to RSX > hosts as well. There are some things that the Linux implementation > definitely do wrong. I tried to look at it once, but decided that the > code was so ugly that I didn't want to figure it out, and should > rewrite it instead. But I have too many other projects to ever have > gotten around to it. > > ? Johnny > > On 2021-10-28 02:08, Thomas DeBellis wrote: >> I had 'a bit' of DECnet 'partly' running on an Ubuntu machine some >> time ago...? Well, not exactly: I only put LAT up because I wanted >> to test something and LAT isn't actually DECnet.? The Ubuntu host >> knows about everybody: >> >> ??? slogin at neptune:~$ sudo latcp -d -l -v >> >> ??? Service Name:??? NEPTUNE >> ??? Service Status:? Available >> ??? Service Ident:?? Linux 5.4.0-42-generic >> >> ??? Node Name??????? Status????? Rating?? Identification >> ??? NEPTUNE????????? Reachable?????? 10?? Linux 5.4.0-42-generic >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> ??? Service Name:??? TOMMYT >> ??? Service Status:? Available >> ??? Service Ident:?? TOMMYT, PANDA TOPS-20 Monitor 7.1(21740)-5 >> >> ??? Node Name??????? Status????? Rating?? Identification >> ??? TOMMYT?????????? Reachable??????? 1?? TOMMYT, PANDA TOPS-20 Monitor >> ??? 7.1(21740)-5 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> ??? Service Name:??? VENTI2 >> ??? Service Status:? Available >> ??? Service Ident:?? VENTI2, PANDA TOPS-20 Monitor 7.1(21742)-5 >> >> ??? Node Name??????? Status????? Rating?? Identification >> ??? VENTI2?????????? Reachable??????? 1?? VENTI2, PANDA TOPS-20 Monitor >> ??? 7.1(21742)-5 >> ??? ---------------------------------- >> >> The 20's only seem to know about the Ubuntu host: >> >> ??? LCP>shoW serVER /alL >> ??? LCP> >> >> ??? 19:43:26 [LCP]??? ??? -- Summary of All Servers -- >> >> ??? Server Name(Number): NEPTUNE(0) Address: 6C-4B-90-3A-42-73 >> ??? LCP> >> >> ??? LCP>shoW servER NEPTUNE >> ??? LCP> >> ??? 19:41:10 [LCP]??? ??? -- Information About Server NEPTUNE -- >> >> ??? Server Number: 0 >> ??? Server Location: LATD for Linux >> ??? Server Type: VAX/VMS >> ??? Ethernet Address: 6C-4B-90-3A-42-73 >> ??? Server Status: Disconnected >> ??? Max Slots: 254 >> ??? Data Link Size: 1500 >> ??? Circuit Timer(ms): 80 >> ??? Keep-alive Timer(s): 20 >> >> ??? LCP>shoW couNTERS /serVER:NEPTUNE >> ??? LCP> >> ??? 19:40:36 [LCP]??? ??? -- Counters for Server NEPTUNE -- >> >> ??? Messages received: 2 >> ??? Messages transmitted: 1 >> ??? Messages retransmitted: 0 >> ??? Sequence errors received: 0 >> ??? Illegal messages received: 0 >> ??? Illegal slots received: 0 >> ??? Resource failures: 0 >> ??? LCP> >> >> At some point, I'm fairly certain I remember them being able to >> 'see' each other.? I had a Pathworks CD-ROM for Windows 2000, but I >> can't find that and the Windows 2000 laptop I was using has caught a >> very bad cold (I.E., it won't boot) >> >> llogin operation has been erratic.? At one point it worked mostly to >> the 20's, but was not stable.? Now it fails in one of two ways:? 1) >> To a 20, it fails silently with no error message at all.? 2) To an >> Ubuntu host, it succeeds in connecting, and then starts spewing, viz >> >> ??? slogin at neptune:~$ llogin neptune >> ??? Ubuntu 20.04.1 LTS >> ??? neptune login: Ubuntu 20.04.1 LTS >> ??? neptune login: >> >> ??? neptune login: >> sllllooooggggiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii >> >> >> I've never complained about it because I wanted to investigate >> further and maybe either fix what I was doing wrong (undoubtedly the >> real problem) or at least fix it to give better error diagnostics. >> >> I haven't looked at the 20's because I've been occupied fixing bugs >> of more direct concern to me. >> >> If the 20 had a LAT client, I might look further, but I don't what >> the scale of that work would be.? Right now, I'm trying to stay away >> from big projects and just finish the ones that I have in flight. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> On 10/26/21 3:11 PM, John Forecast wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Oct 26, 2021, at 7:57 AM, fsword007 at gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>> Folks, >>>> I successfully installed DECnet/Python on Ubuntu 21.10 system and >>>> was successfully connected to HECnet. >>>> I have a few questions about DECnet/Python.? I choose that because >>>> it support virtual circuits like Multinet over TCP, ?etc.. >>>> I can?t find any apps (programs) to support DECnet/Python like >>>> login, set host, dir, etc.? Only DECnet for Linux has programs. >>>> Does DECnet for Raspberry Pi work with Ubuntu 21.10 (Linux 5.13 >>>> for x86)? >>> >>> I?ve never tried Ubuntu but I have built DECnet for Raspberry Pi on >>> an older version of Debian x86 without any problems. My suggestion >>> would be to try it. Due to family medical issues I will be unable >>> to check it out until December at the earliest. >>> >>> ? John. >>>> Tim >>> >

A couple of considerations: 1. Is there a backbone router in your area? If yes, you'd want to connect there.

Yes, PyDECnet supports: real Ethernet, Ethernet bridging over UDP, GRE, Multinet over TCP (and UDP but don't), DDCMP over TCP, UDP, simulated async connections including Telnet, real async connections, and sync connections via my DDCMP framer device.? In other words, most of the datalinks DECnet has ever supported.? Missing are 802.5 token ring, HDLC, X.25, and PCL, I think that's about it.? Some day I'll think about 802.5 support not so much for that but because it would enable DECnet over WiFi.

You can look at the map (http://akdesign.dyndns.org:8080/map <http://akdesign.dyndns.org:8080/map>). ?Physicallly closest may not be the best answer -- closest to the rest of the net is also interesting -- but both of those should be visible on the map. ?You can turn off Level 1 nodes and links to see the area routing backbone only, that's probably the best resource to answer your question. paul

You can look at the map (http://akdesign.dyndns.org:8080/map <http://akdesign.dyndns.org:8080/map>). ?Physicallly closest may not be the best answer -- closest to the rest of the net is also interesting -- but both of those should be visible on the map. ?You can turn off Level 1 nodes and links to see the area routing backbone only, that's probably the best resource to answer your question.

Probably the problem that Cisco equipment don't talk NICE. :-)

On 11/5/21 11:08 AM, Paul Koning wrote: We may have discussed this before, but that map shows nothing coming in our out of our site here, but there are quite a few tunnels. Is this a protocol support or access issue? -Dave

Yes, that's a typical issue. Or DNA-compliant equipment that has NICE turned off or restricted. I looked into using the DECnet MIB to get information out of Cisco routers but that didn't seem to be practical.

If a Cisco router is visible from a compliant router, it should appear.

But if you have a Cisco router behind another one, the behind one won't be mapped unless there is another router in the same area, one that does speak NICE, so it's seen as reachable.

Yes, that's a typical issue.? Or DNA-compliant equipment that has NICE turned off or restricted. I looked into using the DECnet MIB to get information out of Cisco routers but that didn't seem to be practical.

On Oct 27, 2021, at 9:20 AM, Johnny Billquist<bqt at softjar.se> wrote: To answer Brian in one way - I usually try to organize so that people get hooked up to someone physically close to them, who are sortof local HECnet access points. There are a bunch of people I have on my list that I tend to make use of for this, but it is otherwise pretty flexible. But it don't make sense to have the link going to someone far away. That just means silly roundtrips if you then talk to someone nearby, while for connections far away, it's going to make that jump anyway, no matter where you connect. And a few questions/comments on what Paul wrote: On 2021-10-27 15:06, Paul Koning wrote: With area I assume you mean physical area here, and not DECnet area.

... For the others, Paul pretty much summed it up. In addition, it should probably be mentioned that Multinet over TCP or UDP is possible inside VMS and RSX (as well as with PyDECnet). DDCMP over TCP or UDP is possible with PyDECnet (actually, I could probably add that in RSX as well), while GRE is mainly for Cisco, but I think PyDECnet also can do that one? So choices are somewhat dependent on what system/software you are using.

On Oct 27, 2021, at 8:13 PM, Thomas DeBellis <tommytimesharing at gmail.com <mailto:tommytimesharing at gmail.com>> wrote: Remind me what "PCL" transport is, please? Tops-20 seems to have had DECnet over X.25 at some point, but I don't see any of source for that in the PANDA distribution.? It is possible that it may be on a standard DEC distribution tape on trailing-edge. /Maybe/ In certain cases, DEC would not release source, even if you paid to be a source site.? So you can't get TGHA (bummer) nor the NICE process (double bummer). On 10/27/21 9:52 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Oct 27, 2021, at 9:20 AM, Johnny Billquist<bqt at softjar.se> wrote: >> >> To answer Brian in one way - I usually try to organize so that people get hooked up to someone physically close to them, who are sortof local HECnet access points. There are a bunch of people I have on my list that I tend to make use of for this, but it is otherwise pretty flexible. >> >> But it don't make sense to have the link going to someone far away. That just means silly roundtrips if you then talk to someone nearby, while for connections far away, it's going to make that jump anyway, no matter where you connect. >> >> And a few questions/comments on what Paul wrote: >> >> On 2021-10-27 15:06, Paul Koning wrote: >>> A couple of considerations: >>> 1. Is there a backbone router in your area? If yes, you'd want to connect there. >> With area I assume you mean physical area here, and not DECnet area. > Oops. Yes. But everywhere else I meant DECnet area, and should said so clearly. > >> ... >> For the others, Paul pretty much summed it up. In addition, it should probably be mentioned that Multinet over TCP or UDP is possible inside VMS and RSX (as well as with PyDECnet). DDCMP over TCP or UDP is possible with PyDECnet (actually, I could probably add that in RSX as well), while GRE is mainly for Cisco, but I think PyDECnet also can do that one? >> >> So choices are somewhat dependent on what system/software you are using. > Yes, PyDECnet supports: real Ethernet, Ethernet bridging over UDP, GRE, Multinet over TCP (and UDP but don't), DDCMP over TCP, UDP, simulated async connections including Telnet, real async connections, and sync connections via my DDCMP framer device. In other words, most of the datalinks DECnet has ever supported. Missing are 802.5 token ring, HDLC, X.25, and PCL, I think that's about it. Some day I'll think about 802.5 support not so much for that but because it would enable DECnet over WiFi. > > paul >

On Oct 28, 2021, at 2:55 PM, John Forecast <john at forecast.name> wrote: The PCL-11B was a CSS product which allowed up to 16 Unibus PDP-11 to be connected together over a TDM bus running at 1 megabyte/sec. I?m pretty sure it didn?t use DDCMP. I?m not sure about Phase II but for Phase III each node was set up as a multi-point master (PCL-0.0) and the remote nodes were multi-point tributaries (PCL-0.1 to PCL-0.15) so it would appear as a fully connected mesh. At the end of Phase III, Hardware Engineering built a small number of prototype Unibus ethernet boards (maybe 10 total) so they could get some experience with ethernet (this was a programmed I/O device with 1 transmit and 1 receive buffer, sort of like some of the early 3Com devices). I used a similar technique to the PCL to get RSX-DECnet Phase III running (slowly) over ethernet.

DDCMP over TCP or UDP is possible with PyDECnet ...

On Oct 27, 2021, at 8:44 PM, Peter Lothberg<roll at stupi.com> wrote: ... The 4.x DECnet over DDCMP DUP/KMC for 2020 has reduced "segment size' from 576 to 390 or something like that due to limited buffer space.

On Oct 27, 2021, at 9:32 PM, Thomas DeBellis <tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote: TOPOL? Hmm... No, I hadn't heard of that, either. It sounds almost familiar, but I don't know why Tops-20 would be asking for it because it doesn't appear to be serving it, viz:...

From: "tommytimesharing" <tommytimesharing at gmail.com> To: "hecnet" <hecnet at Update.UU.SE> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2021 8:29:35 PM Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet/Python