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15559 discussions

by mark＠wickensonline.co.uk

On 01/10/2013 14:43, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >John Wilson wrote: From: "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> In another 30 years, it is almost certain that no one will even know what these terminals are, let alone that any will actually work or that there will be systems to use them with. Even after the first 30 years, here's a dumb question: what color is a VT52? Mine (which does work) is a nice cirty yellow, like coffee-stained linoleum, even after a good scrub. But when I was working on an icon for emulated VT52 sessions, it occurred to me that making it look like *my* VT52 might be dumb. Were VT52s always yellowish, or did they begin life as sparkly white as the bottom of a VT100 keyboard, and it takes 30 years of sunburn to get them where they are now? I bought the stuff to make some Retro-Brite ages ago but still haven't gotten around to mixing it up. I can't EVER remember any VT52 being any color except "a nice dirty yellow"!!!!! It is even possible that I used a VT52 before I used a VT100 at one of the many consulting jobs in the 1970s or less likely in the 1980s. Still NO memory of any other color. It is very likely that my VT52 does still work, but I don't have a working PDP-11 at the moment and even if I did, there is no purpose that seems useful to play with the VT52. Since I write almost 100% of my code in MACRO-11, the VT100 support for 132 columns is almost essential to read a listing. Although there is an option in MACRO-11 for 80 column listings, that substantially reduces the number of instructions per page of the listing. NO, I will probably stay with the emulated VT100 terminal support provided by Ersatz-11 which includes support for more than 24 lines. When I first used that feature, it was a minor disadvantage since the text characters did seem a bit challenged (in a vertical sort of manner). But now that I have used the feature for over a year with K42.SAV (either 80 columns by 50 lines OR 132 columns by 44 lines - largest options supported by my video card for my monitor in FULL SCREEN mode), going back to 24 lines seems like SHOUTING when I look at the text characters, especially for 80 columns by 50 lines. In fact, I almost always use the 132 columns by 44 lines even for non-KED displays so that I don't need to change my focus as I switch back and forth from and to each emulated VT100 "terminal" under Ersatz-11 using <ALT/Fn>. My real DEC PDP-11/83 system has SIX DEC VT100 terminals on the desktop (I have a huge desk and they are stacked two high). With just the <ALT/Fn> key to switch back and forth, the same monitor can be used to display all of the terminals. And since my eyes can focus on only one "terminal" at a time, using <ALT/Fn> instead of turning my head seems like a useful alternative. Jerome Fine Jerome, I'd like to know more about what your MACRO-11 projects involve and I'm sure we'd all like to see a photo of your PDP-11/83 with terminal!! Regards, Mark. -- http://www.wickensonline.co.uk http://hecnet.eu http://declegacy.org.uk http://retrochallenge.net https://twitter.com/#!/%40urbancamo

11 years, 8 months

VT-62?

by jhfinedp3k＠compsys.to

>John Wilson wrote: From: "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> In another 30 years, it is almost certain that no one will even know what these terminals are, let alone that any will actually work or that there will be systems to use them with. Even after the first 30 years, here's a dumb question: what color is a VT52? Mine (which does work) is a nice cirty yellow, like coffee-stained linoleum, even after a good scrub. But when I was working on an icon for emulated VT52 sessions, it occurred to me that making it look like *my* VT52 might be dumb. Were VT52s always yellowish, or did they begin life as sparkly white as the bottom of a VT100 keyboard, and it takes 30 years of sunburn to get them where they are now? I bought the stuff to make some Retro-Brite ages ago but still haven't gotten around to mixing it up. I can't EVER remember any VT52 being any color except "a nice dirty yellow"!!!!! It is even possible that I used a VT52 before I used a VT100 at one of the many consulting jobs in the 1970s or less likely in the 1980s. Still NO memory of any other color. It is very likely that my VT52 does still work, but I don't have a working PDP-11 at the moment and even if I did, there is no purpose that seems useful to play with the VT52. Since I write almost 100% of my code in MACRO-11, the VT100 support for 132 columns is almost essential to read a listing. Although there is an option in MACRO-11 for 80 column listings, that substantially reduces the number of instructions per page of the listing. NO, I will probably stay with the emulated VT100 terminal support provided by Ersatz-11 which includes support for more than 24 lines. When I first used that feature, it was a minor disadvantage since the text characters did seem a bit challenged (in a vertical sort of manner). But now that I have used the feature for over a year with K42.SAV (either 80 columns by 50 lines OR 132 columns by 44 lines - largest options supported by my video card for my monitor in FULL SCREEN mode), going back to 24 lines seems like SHOUTING when I look at the text characters, especially for 80 columns by 50 lines. In fact, I almost always use the 132 columns by 44 lines even for non-KED displays so that I don't need to change my focus as I switch back and forth from and to each emulated VT100 "terminal" under Ersatz-11 using <ALT/Fn>. My real DEC PDP-11/83 system has SIX DEC VT100 terminals on the desktop (I have a huge desk and they are stacked two high). With just the <ALT/Fn> key to switch back and forth, the same monitor can be used to display all of the terminals. And since my eyes can focus on only one "terminal" at a time, using <ALT/Fn> instead of turning my head seems like a useful alternative. Jerome Fine

11 years, 8 months

FMS, SMG$, Windowing/Forms on a Text Terminal

by system＠TMESIS.COM

Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> writes: Very interesting! I have played a little with SMG$ as part of Retrochallenge, and looked at the other projects, but as hinted there is a steep learning curve with a lot of the products that is bound to put most off. Are you saying that there is a steep learning curve to SMG$? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

11 years, 8 months

VT-62?

by bob＠jfcl.com

what color is a VT52? My VT52s both have a slight yellowish cast, but certainly not "coffee". They're actually almost exactly the same color as, say, my VT100, VT241 box, VR241 monitor, or VT220s. The newer terminals I have, like the VT4xx and 5xx ones, are distinctly off white and have much less of a yellow tint. I'm quite sure some of that is due to aging, although it's hard to say how much. And it's probably foolish to assume that they were all exactly the same color even when new. I imagine there was a significant variation in color between different lots of plastic pieces. [When I did the SBC6120 I tried very hard to match the colors of the original 8/E front panel, and I even went as far as to borrow about four faceplates for comparison. The trouble was, they weren't at all the same colors! Again, some of it is aging but I also don't think DEC controlled that carefully for the paint colors in those days.] Bob

11 years, 8 months

FMS, SMG$, Windowing/Forms on a Text Terminal

by mark＠wickensonline.co.uk

On 01/10/2013 10:41, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons wrote: El 01/10/2013, a les 11:10, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> va escriure: I understand where you're coming from Sampsa with regards to forms on text terminals. I've always found applications that do this strangely fascinating for no particular reason. I remember back around 1992 when I was working for Cyberscience one of the lead developers wrote a terminal based application to create database queries visually and I thought it was just so cool! DEC had several products which did forms. FMS was the oldest and IIRC the most extended. Then there was also TDMS and DecForms, which was very, very powerful but vastly complicated. I used it, and have to confess I liked it. A lot. Then there was a product called RALLY, which was a 4G system to do database applications. It generated automatically database maintenance forms, including hyerarchical formats. It had a pascal-ish programming languange to do scripting and non-forms logic. I liked that one too (albeit it was slow as hell). I also worked at the PPA in Newcastle around the 2000s which was an IBM mainframe shop. The JCL boys were a law unto themselves and it was clear they would have a job for life all the time no one switched off the big iron. I'm drawn to the esoteric so found that environment equally interesting, although I would be totally clueless to how it is driven. That is job security thru obscurity. Believe me, JCL is _NOT_ that hard. It has basically four instructions (JOB, EXEC, PROC and DD) and their corresponding parameters, which if you read the docs can seem like a lot... until you realize you will be using just a small subset in real life. Jordi Guillaumes i Pons jg at jordi.guillaumes.name HECnet: BITXOV::JGUILLAUMES Very interesting! I have played a little with SMG$ as part of Retrochallenge, and looked at the other projects, but as hinted there is a steep learning curve with a lot of the products that is bound to put most off. Your last comment made me think of a job interview I had at the Skandia factory who were a big IBM user in Luton when I was leaving University. After the interview I was quietly told that although they thought I was fantastic that I'd be better off getting a job somewhere else as working there would 'bore me to tears'! -- http://www.wickensonline.co.uk http://hecnet.eu http://declegacy.org.uk http://retrochallenge.net https://twitter.com/#!/%40urbancamo

11 years, 8 months

FMS, SMG$, Windowing/Forms on a Text Terminal

by jg＠jordi.guillaumes.name

El 01/10/2013, a les 11:10, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> va escriure: I understand where you're coming from Sampsa with regards to forms on text terminals. I've always found applications that do this strangely fascinating for no particular reason. I remember back around 1992 when I was working for Cyberscience one of the lead developers wrote a terminal based application to create database queries visually and I thought it was just so cool! DEC had several products which did forms. FMS was the oldest and IIRC the most extended. Then there was also TDMS and DecForms, which was very, very powerful but vastly complicated. I used it, and have to confess I liked it. A lot. Then there was a product called RALLY, which was a 4G system to do database applications. It generated automatically database maintenance forms, including hyerarchical formats. It had a pascal-ish programming languange to do scripting and non-forms logic. I liked that one too (albeit it was slow as hell). I also worked at the PPA in Newcastle around the 2000s which was an IBM mainframe shop. The JCL boys were a law unto themselves and it was clear they would have a job for life all the time no one switched off the big iron. I'm drawn to the esoteric so found that environment equally interesting, although I would be totally clueless to how it is driven. That is job security thru obscurity. Believe me, JCL is _NOT_ that hard. It has basically four instructions (JOB, EXEC, PROC and DD) and their corresponding parameters, which if you read the docs can seem like a lot... until you realize you will be using just a small subset in real life. Jordi Guillaumes i Pons jg at jordi.guillaumes.name HECnet: BITXOV::JGUILLAUMES

11 years, 8 months

FMS, SMG$, Windowing/Forms on a Text Terminal

by mark＠wickensonline.co.uk

I understand where you're coming from Sampsa with regards to forms on text terminals. I've always found applications that do this strangely fascinating for no particular reason. I remember back around 1992 when I was working for Cyberscience one of the lead developers wrote a terminal based application to create database queries visually and I thought it was just so cool! I also worked at the PPA in Newcastle around the 2000s which was an IBM mainframe shop. The JCL boys were a law unto themselves and it was clear they would have a job for life all the time no one switched off the big iron. I'm drawn to the esoteric so found that environment equally interesting, although I would be totally clueless to how it is driven. Mark. -- http://www.wickensonline.co.uk http://hecnet.eu http://declegacy.org.uk http://retrochallenge.net https://twitter.com/#!/%40urbancamo

11 years, 8 months

Humour value alternative to DCL - a port OS/390 ISPF to VMS :)

by hvlems＠zonnet.nl

At Fujitsu we did have an IBM mainframe (dos/vse and VM). It had no network interface by itself. Eventually it was connected to the LAN via a channel attached DECnet gateway. In order to test connectivity we had to submit jcl decks. I agree fully with you how that language (?) was designed: a mess. On Burroughs one has WFL and that looks like A lol. Jcl looks like assembler without a proper design... Van: Sampsa Laine Verzonden: maandag 30 september 2013 21:38 Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Beantwoorden: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Humour value alternative to DCL - a port OS/390 ISPF to VMS :) >> name but it was a blessing because the shell commands were beyond human Ever try to write anything in JCL? :) That language is messed up, I have about 3 books on it and still can't really figure out how it works except by direct copying scripts from the book to a live system. Sometimes I even manage to compile COBOL programs, but I haven't figured out the LINK EDITOR which one needs to turn the output into an executable. Interesting experience though, might come in handy when I come across clients with big System z or S/390 setups..

11 years, 8 months

VT-62?

by wilson＠dbit.com

From: "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> In another 30 years, it is almost certain that no one will even know what these terminals are, let alone that any will actually work or that there will be systems to use them with. Even after the first 30 years, here's a dumb question: what color is a VT52? Mine (which does work) is a nice cirty yellow, like coffee-stained linoleum, even after a good scrub. But when I was working on an icon for emulated VT52 sessions, it occurred to me that making it look like *my* VT52 might be dumb. Were VT52s always yellowish, or did they begin life as sparkly white as the bottom of a VT100 keyboard, and it takes 30 years of sunburn to get them where they are now? I bought the stuff to make some Retro-Brite ages ago but still haven't gotten around to mixing it up. John Wilson D Bit

11 years, 8 months

VT-62?

by jhfinedp3k＠compsys.to

>Bob Armstrong wrote: What can be done (non-destructive suggestions only, please) with a VT-62? This is NOT a VT52 (although it looks like one). The VT62 is a block mode terminal that, I think, actually speaks DDCMP. AFAIK it's incapable of being a plain ASCII terminal unless there's some hack I'm unaware of. If you are able to use the VT62 terminal under RT-11, DEC supported a special variant of KED specifically for the VT62, namely K62.SAV, as opposed to the variant, Ked.SAV, for the VT100. There is also a variant of KED specifically for the VT52, namely K52.SAV, in addition to a separate variant for the VT100, Ker.SAV, which is used when RSTS/E is the PDP-11 operating system. While these two special variants of Ked.SAV, namely K52.SAV and K62.SAV, are not generally available, at least K52.SAV can be downloaded as part of the binary RT-11 distribution from some of those distributions starting with V04.00 of RT-11. After DEC stopped supporting the VT52 and VT62 terminals (around 1989), the KED variants for these two terminals were still maintained, but not longer included in the standard RT-11 binary distributions. All of the KED variants, including K62.SAV, can still be produced for V05.06 of RT-11. Although it is not possible to determine if K62.SAV is correct, the two variants of KED which are included in the distribution for V05.06 of RT-11, Ked.SAV and Kex.SAV, are identical to the copies produced from the source code when all nine of the DEC supported variants of KED are assembled and linked. So it seems very probable that the K52.SAV and K62.SAV variants are correct as well. I am not familiar with exactly what special features K62.SAV uses in the VT62 terminal, so it is not possible for me to advise you in that regard. Aside from RT-11, I am not aware of any other application program which knows anything at all about the VT62 terminal, let alone the differences between the VT52 and the VT62. Right now the only thing I can think of is to part it out as spares for my VT52. I have two of the latter and it looks like at least some of the major assemblies - CRT, keyboard, power supply - are identical. I hate to do that, though, if there's a better use for it. If you really do have a working VT62 (or one that can be repaired), that would be sad situation if you were to use the VT62 are spares for the VT52. There are probably very few working VT52 terminals around these days although I may still have one (it has not been turned on for at least a few years). I doubt that there are even a fraction of that number of VT62 terminals left anywhere. On the other hand, all the VT52 and VT62 terminals are over 30 years old. In another 30 years, it is almost certain that no one will even know what these terminals are, let alone that any will actually work or that there will be systems to use them with. So if you can use the VT62 parts to keep a VT52 in working order, it is your terminal to do as you wish. For example, there has been no one interested in a new variant of KED which supports the VT420 with more than 24 lines, named (appropriately I think) the K42.SAV, which I use under Ersatz-11. Since there is support, under the VT100 emulation included with Ersatz-11, for up to 255 columns by 255 lines (in particular for the Win32 variant), K42.SAV has been enhanced to support both of those screen sizes, although NOT at the same time. In practical terms, the best my monitor can support under the DOS variant of Ersatz-11 is either 80 columns by 50 lines OR 132 columns by 44 lines. For the Win32 variant of Ersatz-11, there is support for a screen size on the monitor of up to approximately 200 columns by 70 lines. Along with a much larger cut / paste buffer and some very nice extra features for the HELP screens, I find that K42.SAV is much improved over DEC variant, Ked.SAV, which is limited to 24 lines. Jerome Fine

11 years, 8 months

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