On 10/02/2013 03:10 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Emacs has too high of a learning curve for me...with vi I prefer vim.
Emacs has an OBSCENE learning curve. But if you give it the time that
it takes, it will reward you for the rest of your life.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
yOn Wed, 2 Oct 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 10/02/2013 03:04 PM, Sampsa Laine wrote:
Reading a manual for a NCD X terminal and it interestingly supports X11 over DECNET.
Anybody have much experience with this?
I ran it very briefly between a MicroVAX-II and a VAXstation-2000 a
long time ago, just to play with it. It was neat when I got it working,
but then it dawned on me that it really wasn't any different from
running it over TCP/IP. ;)
Meaning it works for a few minutes and then breaks completely? ;)
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On 10/02/2013 03:03 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
EDT is pure heaven.
Dave this comment made me laugh.
:-)
When I was at a start up in the early 1980s and had so many ex-DEC
folks, the ex-VMS engineers in both HW and SW started to b*tch: "EDT
was best/heaven etc.." I've forgotten all the things people called it.
I think it was Teixiera that took an EDT editor manual that one of them
had and sat with one of the ex-VT-100 designers in his office and wrote
some e-lisp for him. The result was an EDT emulation on top of
Gosling's Emacs (pre-cursor to gnu emacs). Those macro's got moved to
Zimmerman Emacs. In fact, if you look today in the GNU Emacs manual,
you'll still find these words in the emulation section:
EDT (DEC VMS editor)
Turn on EDT emulation with M-x edt-emulation-on; restore normal
command bindings with M-x edt-emulation-off.
But what was interesting to me to watch over time the ex-VMS folks
take one of three directions even with the having "Emacs-EDT" available:
1.) switch to a native emacs 'cause they found it more powerful than
EDT /(i.e./ learn now emacs could be "bound" to UNIX and discovered
they liked it).
2.) switch to vi because it ran on everything (from a PC to Cray and
in between inc VAX/VMS) which in those days emacs did not [this is
what I did and never looked back]
3.) a one guy refused it all and spent a couple of weeks writing a
teco clone (which you can still download from his web site). I
used to think that was pretty close to the original for those us
that learned teco on the PDP-10's years ago - but by that time, I
was fully vi literate so why both going back.
I'm an emacs guy; I live in emacs most every day. I remember the
first time I tried the EDT emulation mode. It seemed so very right and
yet so very wrong, at the same time. :-)
In the end its all about choice and what makes you comfortable.
Of course. As long as it's emacs! B-)
I'm
jaded enough to realize that all the editors from those times are
similar and all can do cool things when they ran on "glass ttys" - it's
just what you learned and have burned into the ROMs in your fingers AND
how well the editor is integrated into the native system. I learned
IBM/TSS on a ASR 33 with a line editor, I bet it you tossed that too me
now I would scream. If I had a 10 again, I wonder what I would use,
as I know at this stage, I've forgotten teco. For VMS I think these
days I would just use vi and be done with it. There is something to be
said for an editor that just works.
That said, the folks that wrote vim changed it just slightly from vi
[they "fixed it" of course] and when I try editing on a my Mac or a
Linux box it sometimes drives me nuts as I can not reprogram those
fingers at my age.
I'm right there with you. Emacs since v18. Good stuff. But my
fingers still remember and adore EDT whenever I'm on a PDP-11 or a VAX.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On Wed, 2 Oct 2013, Clem Cole wrote:
On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
EDT is pure heaven.
Dave this comment made me laugh.
2.) switch to vi because it ran on everything (from a PC to Cray and in
between inc VAX/VMS) which in those days emacs did not [this is what I did
and never looked back]
Emacs has too high of a learning curve for me...with vi I prefer vim.
3.) a one guy refused it all and spent a couple of weeks writing a teco
clone (which you can still download from his web site). I used to think
that was pretty close to the original for those us that learned teco on the
PDP-10's years ago - but by that time, I was fully vi literate so why both
going back.
I prefer EDT/PICO/NANO personally. I'm aware the first 2 are unrelated.
In the end its all about choice and what makes you comfortable. I'm jaded
enough to realize that all the editors from those times are similar and all
can do cool things when they ran on "glass ttys" - it's just what you
learned and have burned into the ROMs in your fingers AND how well the
editor is integrated into the native system. I learned IBM/TSS on a ASR 33
with a line editor, I bet it you tossed that too me now I would scream.
If I had a 10 again, I wonder what I would use, as I know at this stage,
I've forgotten teco. For VMS I think these days I would just use vi and
be done with it. There is something to be said for an editor that just
works.
I'd enjoy nano for the 10.
That said, the folks that wrote vim changed it just slightly from vi [they
"fixed it" of course] and when I try editing on a my Mac or a Linux box it
sometimes drives me nuts as I can not reprogram those fingers at my age.
Clem
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
I ran it very briefly between a MicroVAX-II and a VAXstation-2000 a
long time ago, just to play with it. It was neat when I got it working,
but then it dawned on me that it really wasn't any different from
running it over TCP/IP. ;)
Cool..I've always wanted an old-skool terminal - even better if it runs over DECnet :)
This model has another weird feature as well, it supports LAT (I'm guessing it turns into a text mode terminal when one requests LAT mode)
sampsa
On 10/02/2013 03:04 PM, Sampsa Laine wrote:
Reading a manual for a NCD X terminal and it interestingly supports X11 over DECNET.
Anybody have much experience with this?
I ran it very briefly between a MicroVAX-II and a VAXstation-2000 a
long time ago, just to play with it. It was neat when I got it working,
but then it dawned on me that it really wasn't any different from
running it over TCP/IP. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Reading a manual for a NCD X terminal and it interestingly supports X11 over DECNET.
Anybody have much experience with this?
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +358 40 7208932
On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
EDT is pure heaven.
Dave this comment made me laugh.
When I was at a start up in the early 1980s and had so many ex-DEC folks, the ex-VMS engineers in both HW and SW started to b*tch: "EDT was best/heaven etc.." I've forgotten all the things people called it. I think it was Teixiera that took an EDT editor manual that one of them had and sat with one of the ex-VT-100 designers in his office and wrote some e-lisp for him. The result was an EDT emulation on top of Gosling's Emacs (pre-cursor to gnu emacs). Those macro's got moved to Zimmerman Emacs. In fact, if you look today in the GNU Emacs manual, you'll still find these words in the emulation section:
EDT (DEC VMS editor)
Turn on EDT emulation with M-x edt-emulation-on; restore normal command bindings with M-x edt-emulation-off.
But what was interesting to me to watch over time the ex-VMS folks take one of three directions even with the having "Emacs-EDT" available:
1.) switch to a native emacs 'cause they found it more powerful than EDT (i.e. learn now emacs could be "bound" to UNIX and discovered they liked it).
2.) switch to vi because it ran on everything (from a PC to Cray and in between inc VAX/VMS) which in those days emacs did not [this is what I did and never looked back]
3.) a one guy refused it all and spent a couple of weeks writing a teco clone (which you can still download from his web site). I used to think that was pretty close to the original for those us that learned teco on the PDP-10's years ago - but by that time, I was fully vi literate so why both going back.
In the end its all about choice and what makes you comfortable. I'm jaded enough to realize that all the editors from those times are similar and all can do cool things when they ran on "glass ttys" - it's just what you learned and have burned into the ROMs in your fingers AND how well the editor is integrated into the native system. I learned IBM/TSS on a ASR 33 with a line editor, I bet it you tossed that too me now I would scream. If I had a 10 again, I wonder what I would use, as I know at this stage, I've forgotten teco. For VMS I think these days I would just use vi and be done with it. There is something to be said for an editor that just works.
That said, the folks that wrote vim changed it just slightly from vi [they "fixed it" of course] and when I try editing on a my Mac or a Linux box it sometimes drives me nuts as I can not reprogram those fingers at my age.
Clem
Been reading the NOTES thread, there seems to be one person vaguely wary due to security reasons (valid, but overly paranoid IMHO) and the other posts seem relatively positive.
Brian, how do you think this is going? Are we going to get them to hook up?
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +358 40 7208932
> What I'm curious about is why EDT never appeared under RT-11. (or did
>it?) KED is respectable, but EDT is pure heaven.
I agree - my favorite editor. But, the first version or two, as delivered with RSTS at least, was a hellish mode based thing - like VI, you had to constantly switch between insert and edit modes, and if you forgot which mode you were in and hit a keypad key at the wrong time, all hell would break loose.
I tried it and used EDI instead, until the later version of EDT came out - limited as EDI was, it was far more predictable and didn't tend to go wild as easily.
--
Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants
lee.gleason at comcast.net
