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by mcguire＠neurotica.com

...or rather, sidestepped. I asked about this issue yesterday in case anyone had a quick "problem X can definitely cause that" response, before diving in with XXDP, etc. I checked power and configuration, all good, so I...dove in with XXDP. I have three 11/24 CPUs. Two of them drop to ODT when I run the JKDA diag, for the F11 MMU. Those two also report errors in every MS11-P board that I have (about eight) at the end of every 16KB "page" of memory during the ZMSP test. The third board passes all tests, and runs RSX11M's ACF without hanging. It's running sysgen now, and I expect the new executive to boot fine. Something is clearly up with those other two boards. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

12 years, 2 months

two dumb RSX questions

by wilson＠dbit.com

From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> I've run into a snag, though. I'm trying to allow sysgen to autoconfigure the hardware via ACF, and it hangs on my 11/24 system. I've tried with both 4.3 and 4.6. Thinking it might have something to do with my recently-installed and untested DELUA, I removed it, but I get the same result. No guarantees but might give useful data: do you have any RSTS lying around? Its INIT.SYS (the pre-boot system) is *very* ladylike about frotzed hardware, so it may well pop up a message that leads directly to the problem, just on the way to that first prompt (and if you do get that far, "HA LI" might tell you about surprises in your config). When do you say it hangs, do you mean it's looping (executing PDP-11 code -- might be worth seeing what and/or looking at the stack to see how it got there), or that the bus is hung and the CPU is stuck? The hardware is, as far as I can tell, otherwise fine. I built the system up from parts a few weeks ago, and have exercised it with RT-11. The order of dependence on strictly working (and/or accurately emulated) hardware goes: RT => RSX => RSTS. So the fact that something works with RT proves *nothing*! (I've learned this the hard way so many times.) Of course, looked at another way, it's nice of RT to be willing to run on hardware that's not long for this world... John Wilson D Bit

12 years, 2 months

two dumb RSX questions

by jhfinedp3k＠compsys.to

>Johnny Billquist wrote: >On 2013-12-31 02:53, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 12/27/2013 04:16 AM, goran ahling wrote: As I remember the SYSGEN/NETGEN task, the controller intended for DECnet should NOT be taken into SYSGEN at all, but later, at the totally separate task of performing NETGEN once Your OS. is up and running, it should be included there. So, no need to redo your SYSGEN when playing with different Ethernet cards. Ahh, excellent. Thank you. I've run into a snag, though. I'm trying to allow sysgen to autoconfigure the hardware via ACF, and it hangs on my 11/24 system. I've tried with both 4.3 and 4.6. Thinking it might have something to do with my recently-installed and untested DELUA, I removed it, but I get the same result. So I completed sysgens via manual hardware configuration entry, both with and without the DELUA. Both sysgen runs completed successfully, but the system hangs when I try to boot the new executive. The hardware is, as far as I can tell, otherwise fine. I built the system up from parts a few weeks ago, and have exercised it with RT-11. Everything seems ok. The baseline RSX system boots just fine. I've set up an identically-configured instance of simh, and run through the same process on that, and it works. My next step is to pull it out of the rack and triple check things like the memory boards' CSRs and such, etc., but I thought I'd ask here first. I last ran an RSX sysgen almost thirty years ago, and I barely remember it at all...but I'm certain nothing like this happened. That was on an 11/34 with RL01s, RL02s, and RK07s. Any thoughts? Others have come with some suggestions. I'll stick my neck out and say that some device isn't working properly. RSX probes and kicks devices at startup (check that they respond to their CSRs, and for some check that they generate interrupts). I don't think RT-11 do that as much. Also, it might be that the device in question isn't even configured in RT-11. When both autoconfigure fails and a generated system fails, it's one of the controllers that you have genned in that is causing you problems. Anyway. My first suspicion would be a DMA controller with the NPR wire still in place. But there might be some other controller broken as well. I do not think you have power problems, although I wouldn't totally rule it out. But I would expect you to see problems with RT-11 as well, if that was the case. Or with the Baseline RSX system. What you do see is typical of one specific controller blocking you. Unfortunately, with 11M it isn't that easy to spot which one, as the probing of the controller are done automatically right at the start of the booting. In M+ it is done in a different way, which makes it easier to troubleshoot. Happy New Year to everyone who uses the Common Era calendar, since by the time this reply is read, New Year's day of 2014 will have already started for some individuals. In addition, if anyone who is reading this still uses RT-11 to change RT-11 programs and uses the RT-11 Symbolic Debugger, SD:, I have a question at the very end. I can offer a few comments on the basic operations which occur when RT-11 boots, but only at the operating system level. I am not aware of exactly what occurs within each device driver, let alone the exact details of the code in the installation section of any device driver. During an RT-11 boot, other than the device driver which is used as the system device, RT-11 only attempts to INSTALL the other device drivers. If I remember correctly, RT-11 checks all the files on the system device to determine if they are valid device drivers for the operating system which is being booted. Both Mapped and UnMapped operating systems (specifically the file for the operating system) can coexist on the same system device along with separate device drivers for both types of operating systems. The primary boot code for RT-11 (at least after V04.00 of RT-11 in 1980) was a single block in block zero of the system device and was obtained from the device driver and written into block zero along with the secondary boot code in blocks 2, 3, 4 and 5 via: COPY/BOOT DL0:RT11FB.SYS DL0: as just one example for the RL01 / RL02 devices with an UnMapped variant of the RT-11 operating system. The primary boot code is from the device driver, DL0:DL.SYS, while the secondary boot code is from the operating system file, DL0:RT11FB.SYS During the RT-11 boot, RT-11 attempts to INSTALL all the device drivers on the system device which are compatible with the operating system. In general, RT-11 attempts to execute the installation code from each compatible device driver which, except for the resident system device, consists of an access to the IOPAGE registers that are used by the device driver. Sometimes the device driver file contains additional code, but if I remember correctly, no data device driver (all devices are data devices if they are not the system device) in RT-11 requires any interrupts. So if booting RSX-11 requires device interrupts, that might be the reason. You could attempt to isolate the device responsible in RT-11 by an attempt to use each device driver after RT-11 boots. As for using SD: (the RT-11 Symbolic Debugger), does anyone find that SDHX.SYS uses too much low memory (1125 words)? Would having an option to retain the Program Counter Locations (at least the last 1000 addresses executed - in a circular buffer, of course) be of help in debugging RT-11 code? Another option which I would appreciate would be the ability to support the temporary execution of other jobs while the current job being execution is placed into .Wait state. Does anyone else agree? Under TSX-Plus and RSX-11, that happens automatically, in addition to using VDT under RT-11. BUT, SDHX.SYS freezes the complete RT-11 system when the code being debugged is stopped at a break point. Jerome Fine

12 years, 2 months

two dumb RSX questions

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2013-12-31 02:53, Dave McGuire wrote: On 12/27/2013 04:16 AM, goran ahling wrote: As I remember the SYSGEN/NETGEN task, the controller intended for DECnet should NOT be taken into SYSGEN at all, but later, at the totally separate task of performing NETGEN once Your OS. is up and running, it should be included there. So, no need to redo your SYSGEN when playing with different Ethernet cards. Ahh, excellent. Thank you. I've run into a snag, though. I'm trying to allow sysgen to autoconfigure the hardware via ACF, and it hangs on my 11/24 system. I've tried with both 4.3 and 4.6. Thinking it might have something to do with my recently-installed and untested DELUA, I removed it, but I get the same result. So I completed sysgens via manual hardware configuration entry, both with and without the DELUA. Both sysgen runs completed successfully, but the system hangs when I try to boot the new executive. The hardware is, as far as I can tell, otherwise fine. I built the system up from parts a few weeks ago, and have exercised it with RT-11. Everything seems ok. The baseline RSX system boots just fine. I've set up an identically-configured instance of simh, and run through the same process on that, and it works. My next step is to pull it out of the rack and triple check things like the memory boards' CSRs and such, etc., but I thought I'd ask here first. I last ran an RSX sysgen almost thirty years ago, and I barely remember it at all...but I'm certain nothing like this happened. That was on an 11/34 with RL01s, RL02s, and RK07s. Any thoughts? Others have come with some suggestions. I'll stick my neck out and say that some device isn't working properly. RSX probes and kicks devices at startup (check that they respond to their CSRs, and for some check that they generate interrupts). I don't think RT-11 do that as much. Also, it might be that the device in question isn't even configured in RT-11. When both autoconfigure fails and a generated system fails, it's one of the controllers that you have genned in that is causing you problems. Anyway. My first suspicion would be a DMA controller with the NPR wire still in place. But there might be some other controller broken as well. I do not think you have power problems, although I wouldn't totally rule it out. But I would expect you to see problems with RT-11 as well, if that was the case. Or with the Baseline RSX system. What you do see is typical of one specific controller blocking you. Unfortunately, with 11M it isn't that easy to spot which one, as the probing of the controller are done automatically right at the start of the booting. In M+ it is done in a different way, which makes it easier to troubleshoot. Johnny

12 years, 2 months

two dumb RSX questions

by gregg.drwho8＠gmail.com

Hello! Cory being right around here is almost dangerous, especially since its dangerous to be too right too soon. (Or however that goes.) Actually that is always the first thing to consider. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: On Mon, 30 Dec 2013, Gregg Levine wrote: Hello! Do what I do when I get confronted by a very unhappy system. Examine all of the steps you followed to get that far. And remember, the system you are looking at has a reason for being unhappy, and it probably isn't yourself. I stick with my PSU theory. ;> ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 8:53 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: On 12/27/2013 04:16 AM, goran ahling wrote: As I remember the SYSGEN/NETGEN task, the controller intended for DECnet should NOT be taken into SYSGEN at all, but later, at the totally separate task of performing NETGEN once Your OS. is up and running, it should be included there. So, no need to redo your SYSGEN when playing with different Ethernet cards. Ahh, excellent. Thank you. I've run into a snag, though. I'm trying to allow sysgen to autoconfigure the hardware via ACF, and it hangs on my 11/24 system. I've tried with both 4.3 and 4.6. Thinking it might have something to do with my recently-installed and untested DELUA, I removed it, but I get the same result. So I completed sysgens via manual hardware configuration entry, both with and without the DELUA. Both sysgen runs completed successfully, but the system hangs when I try to boot the new executive. The hardware is, as far as I can tell, otherwise fine. I built the system up from parts a few weeks ago, and have exercised it with RT-11. Everything seems ok. The baseline RSX system boots just fine. I've set up an identically-configured instance of simh, and run through the same process on that, and it works. My next step is to pull it out of the rack and triple check things like the memory boards' CSRs and such, etc., but I thought I'd ask here first. I last ran an RSX sysgen almost thirty years ago, and I barely remember it at all...but I'm certain nothing like this happened. That was on an 11/34 with RL01s, RL02s, and RK07s. Any thoughts? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

12 years, 2 months

two dumb RSX questions

by b4＠gewt.net

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013, Gregg Levine wrote: Hello! Do what I do when I get confronted by a very unhappy system. Examine all of the steps you followed to get that far. And remember, the system you are looking at has a reason for being unhappy, and it probably isn't yourself. I stick with my PSU theory. ;> ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 8:53 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: On 12/27/2013 04:16 AM, goran ahling wrote: As I remember the SYSGEN/NETGEN task, the controller intended for DECnet should NOT be taken into SYSGEN at all, but later, at the totally separate task of performing NETGEN once Your OS. is up and running, it should be included there. So, no need to redo your SYSGEN when playing with different Ethernet cards. Ahh, excellent. Thank you. I've run into a snag, though. I'm trying to allow sysgen to autoconfigure the hardware via ACF, and it hangs on my 11/24 system. I've tried with both 4.3 and 4.6. Thinking it might have something to do with my recently-installed and untested DELUA, I removed it, but I get the same result. So I completed sysgens via manual hardware configuration entry, both with and without the DELUA. Both sysgen runs completed successfully, but the system hangs when I try to boot the new executive. The hardware is, as far as I can tell, otherwise fine. I built the system up from parts a few weeks ago, and have exercised it with RT-11. Everything seems ok. The baseline RSX system boots just fine. I've set up an identically-configured instance of simh, and run through the same process on that, and it works. My next step is to pull it out of the rack and triple check things like the memory boards' CSRs and such, etc., but I thought I'd ask here first. I last ran an RSX sysgen almost thirty years ago, and I barely remember it at all...but I'm certain nothing like this happened. That was on an 11/34 with RL01s, RL02s, and RK07s. Any thoughts? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

12 years, 2 months

two dumb RSX questions

by b4＠gewt.net

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: On 12/27/2013 04:16 AM, goran ahling wrote: As I remember the SYSGEN/NETGEN task, the controller intended for DECnet should NOT be taken into SYSGEN at all, but later, at the totally separate task of performing NETGEN once Your OS. is up and running, it should be included there. So, no need to redo your SYSGEN when playing with different Ethernet cards. Ahh, excellent. Thank you. I've run into a snag, though. I'm trying to allow sysgen to autoconfigure the hardware via ACF, and it hangs on my 11/24 system. I've tried with both 4.3 and 4.6. Thinking it might have something to do with my recently-installed and untested DELUA, I removed it, but I get the same result. Voltages stable? Backplane clean? So I completed sysgens via manual hardware configuration entry, both with and without the DELUA. Both sysgen runs completed successfully, but the system hangs when I try to boot the new executive. The hardware is, as far as I can tell, otherwise fine. I built the system up from parts a few weeks ago, and have exercised it with RT-11. Everything seems ok. The baseline RSX system boots just fine. I've set up an identically-configured instance of simh, and run through the same process on that, and it works. Interesting. Maybe a fault due to a difference betweren RSX and RT-11 drivers? My next step is to pull it out of the rack and triple check things like the memory boards' CSRs and such, etc., but I thought I'd ask here first. I last ran an RSX sysgen almost thirty years ago, and I barely remember it at all...but I'm certain nothing like this happened. That was on an 11/34 with RL01s, RL02s, and RK07s. Any thoughts? -Dave -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

12 years, 2 months

two dumb RSX questions

by gregg.drwho8＠gmail.com

Hello! Do what I do when I get confronted by a very unhappy system. Examine all of the steps you followed to get that far. And remember, the system you are looking at has a reason for being unhappy, and it probably isn't yourself. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 8:53 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: On 12/27/2013 04:16 AM, goran ahling wrote: As I remember the SYSGEN/NETGEN task, the controller intended for DECnet should NOT be taken into SYSGEN at all, but later, at the totally separate task of performing NETGEN once Your OS. is up and running, it should be included there. So, no need to redo your SYSGEN when playing with different Ethernet cards. Ahh, excellent. Thank you. I've run into a snag, though. I'm trying to allow sysgen to autoconfigure the hardware via ACF, and it hangs on my 11/24 system. I've tried with both 4.3 and 4.6. Thinking it might have something to do with my recently-installed and untested DELUA, I removed it, but I get the same result. So I completed sysgens via manual hardware configuration entry, both with and without the DELUA. Both sysgen runs completed successfully, but the system hangs when I try to boot the new executive. The hardware is, as far as I can tell, otherwise fine. I built the system up from parts a few weeks ago, and have exercised it with RT-11. Everything seems ok. The baseline RSX system boots just fine. I've set up an identically-configured instance of simh, and run through the same process on that, and it works. My next step is to pull it out of the rack and triple check things like the memory boards' CSRs and such, etc., but I thought I'd ask here first. I last ran an RSX sysgen almost thirty years ago, and I barely remember it at all...but I'm certain nothing like this happened. That was on an 11/34 with RL01s, RL02s, and RK07s. Any thoughts? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

12 years, 2 months

two dumb RSX questions

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 12/27/2013 04:16 AM, goran ahling wrote: As I remember the SYSGEN/NETGEN task, the controller intended for DECnet should NOT be taken into SYSGEN at all, but later, at the totally separate task of performing NETGEN once Your OS. is up and running, it should be included there. So, no need to redo your SYSGEN when playing with different Ethernet cards. Ahh, excellent. Thank you. I've run into a snag, though. I'm trying to allow sysgen to autoconfigure the hardware via ACF, and it hangs on my 11/24 system. I've tried with both 4.3 and 4.6. Thinking it might have something to do with my recently-installed and untested DELUA, I removed it, but I get the same result. So I completed sysgens via manual hardware configuration entry, both with and without the DELUA. Both sysgen runs completed successfully, but the system hangs when I try to boot the new executive. The hardware is, as far as I can tell, otherwise fine. I built the system up from parts a few weeks ago, and have exercised it with RT-11. Everything seems ok. The baseline RSX system boots just fine. I've set up an identically-configured instance of simh, and run through the same process on that, and it works. My next step is to pull it out of the rack and triple check things like the memory boards' CSRs and such, etc., but I thought I'd ask here first. I last ran an RSX sysgen almost thirty years ago, and I barely remember it at all...but I'm certain nothing like this happened. That was on an 11/34 with RL01s, RL02s, and RK07s. Any thoughts? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

12 years, 2 months

anyone have a physical 9 track tape drive still working?

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 12/30/2013 11:29 AM, lee.gleason at comcast.net wrote: It's my month for trying to read old media. I've been going through my collection to try and eliminate bulky things I won't be using. I came across around 10 reel to reel mag tapes from RSX and VMS, from my early DEC career, that I would like to see about getting copied to SIMH tape format. If a stack of 9-track tapes is "bulky" to you, you would HATE my place. ;) Does anyone on the list here in the US still have a working 9 track tape drive on their systems, that would be willing to convert these at a hobbyist-friendly price? I dimly recall that these tapes would be 1600 BPI. I have several functional 9-track drives here, though none are hooked up at the moment due to a physical reorganization in-progress here. I expect to have one up and running in the next week or so, though, and can certainly help you out. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

12 years, 2 months

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