On 2014-01-01 00:52, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>John Wilson wrote:
The order of dependence on strictly working (and/or accurately emulated)
hardware goes: RT => RSX => RSTS. So the fact that something works
with RT proves *nothing*! (I've learned this the hard way so many
times.)
Of course, looked at another way, it's nice of RT to be willing to run
on hardware that's not long for this world...
... OR the CSR for the hardware and the device driver do not
match. Fortunately, RT-11 allows the user to change the
CSR after the boot (for a data device obviously). After that,
the user can INSTALL and LOAD.
RT-11 also supports UNLOAD and REMOVE if a user
needs to power down a data hard drive and physically replace
that drive with a different hard drive. This is really especially
helpful with MSCP devices. If the user has ONLY the single
controller to boot RT-11, VM: can be used to hold the few
essential files required by the operating system. At that point,
the hard drive on an MSCP device can have the power
and cable removed (after the RT-11 UNLOAD and REMOVE)
and a different hard drive substituted (followed by the RT-11
INSTALL and LOAD commands). Try doing that on RSX-11
or RSTS/E.
RSX can boot from virtual devices.
Also, you can load and unload device drivers in RSX, but you don't normally do that just to bring devices offline or online. That is a separate operation from loading and unloading device drivers. But yes, if you want to disconnect devices, buses, CPUs or memory, you can do that just fine on a running RSX system. And bring them online again later, if you want to. Any other trick you'd like to do? :-)
Johnny
On Tue, 31 Dec 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
...or rather, sidestepped. I asked about this issue yesterday in case
anyone had a quick "problem X can definitely cause that" response,
before diving in with XXDP, etc. I checked power and configuration, all
good, so I...dove in with XXDP.
I have three 11/24 CPUs. Two of them drop to ODT when I run the JKDA
diag, for the F11 MMU. Those two also report errors in every MS11-P
board that I have (about eight) at the end of every 16KB "page" of
memory during the ZMSP test. The third board passes all tests, and runs
RSX11M's ACF without hanging. It's running sysgen now, and I expect the
new executive to boot fine.
Aren't memory errors annoying? They cause problems somewhere...but not
elsewhere!
Something is clearly up with those other two boards.
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
>John Wilson wrote:
The order of dependence on strictly working (and/or accurately emulated)
hardware goes: RT => RSX => RSTS. So the fact that something works
with RT proves *nothing*! (I've learned this the hard way so many times.)
Of course, looked at another way, it's nice of RT to be willing to run
on hardware that's not long for this world...
... OR the CSR for the hardware and the device driver do not
match. Fortunately, RT-11 allows the user to change the
CSR after the boot (for a data device obviously). After that,
the user can INSTALL and LOAD.
RT-11 also supports UNLOAD and REMOVE if a user
needs to power down a data hard drive and physically replace
that drive with a different hard drive. This is really especially
helpful with MSCP devices. If the user has ONLY the single
controller to boot RT-11, VM: can be used to hold the few
essential files required by the operating system. At that point,
the hard drive on an MSCP device can have the power
and cable removed (after the RT-11 UNLOAD and REMOVE)
and a different hard drive substituted (followed by the RT-11
INSTALL and LOAD commands). Try doing that on RSX-11
or RSTS/E.
Jerome Fine
Sure thing.
Michael Holmes
5922 Langton Drive
Alexandria, VA 22310
USA
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 30, 2013, at 7:29 PM, "Sampsa Laine" <sampsa at mac.com> wrote:
Dude,
I'm pretty sure you're gonna win this with like less than 24 hours to go, can you send me your mailing address so I can mail the cert + prize to you :)
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +44 7961 149465
On 30 Nov 2013, at 03:18, Michael Holmes <mholmes10 at hotmail.com> wrote:
hey Sampas,
I played and got a high score..
Not sure how to "screen shot" on Mac, but cut and pasted the following from terminal to help verify it.
Oct TETRIS Mark Wickens 7640 1 TETRIS Mike Holmes 9816 18
Sep TETRIS DRB 1040 2 SAMPSA 130 1
Aug SAMPSA [A 126
Jul TETRIS Lanny 740
Jun TETRIS volal 11860
May TETRIS tiguco 2799
Apr TETRIS 14
Mar TETRIS TooCool4Web 4430
Feb TETRIS u 1567
Jan TETRIS 268
Dec TETRIS 128
Nov TETRIS 585
You Are Seated At 1 In tetris Previous Score 2000
Enter Your Name [ Return to Leave ] Current Score 9816
%DCL-E-CAPTINT, captive account - interactive access denied
TETRIS logged out at 30-NOV-2013 03:46:58.48
%REM-S-END, control returned to node MASON::
$
thanks Mike
----------------------------------------
From: sampsa at mac.com
Subject: [HECnet] CHIMPY Retro Tetris Update
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:47:15 +0200
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
CHIMPY Retro Tetris Update:
Mark Wickens is in the lead with a score of 7,640, followed by Vilaca with 1,574 (score not verified with screenshot so might not count).
Guys, we're still running until 23:59:00 GMT on 31-DEC-2013 so there's plenty of time to win random Arabic money AND certificates of Tetris awesomeness.
Telnet to CHIMPY.SAMPSA.COM or SET HOST CHIMPY, log in as TETRIS.
REMEMBER TO SCREENSHOT YOUR RESULT IF YOU GET A NEW HIGHSCORE. Or at least write down what date/time/node you came from if SET HOST, so I can verify the score..
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +358 40 7208932
On 12/31/2013 01:03 PM, John Wilson wrote:
When do you say it hangs, do you mean it's looping (executing PDP-11
code -- might be worth seeing what and/or looking at the stack to see
how it got there), or that the bus is hung and the CPU is stuck?
I didn't investigate to that level. I just figured I'd fire the
question at the gang here since it'd been so long since I'd messed with RSX.
The hardware is, as far as I can tell, otherwise fine. I built the
system up from parts a few weeks ago, and have exercised it with RT-11.
The order of dependence on strictly working (and/or accurately emulated)
hardware goes: RT => RSX => RSTS. So the fact that something works
with RT proves *nothing*! (I've learned this the hard way so many times.)
Indeed...I've been bitten by that a few times as well. Like this time. ;)
Of course, looked at another way, it's nice of RT to be willing to run
on hardware that's not long for this world...
True. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
...or rather, sidestepped. I asked about this issue yesterday in case
anyone had a quick "problem X can definitely cause that" response,
before diving in with XXDP, etc. I checked power and configuration, all
good, so I...dove in with XXDP.
I have three 11/24 CPUs. Two of them drop to ODT when I run the JKDA
diag, for the F11 MMU. Those two also report errors in every MS11-P
board that I have (about eight) at the end of every 16KB "page" of
memory during the ZMSP test. The third board passes all tests, and runs
RSX11M's ACF without hanging. It's running sysgen now, and I expect the
new executive to boot fine.
Something is clearly up with those other two boards.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
I've run into a snag, though. I'm trying to allow sysgen to
autoconfigure the hardware via ACF, and it hangs on my 11/24 system.
I've tried with both 4.3 and 4.6. Thinking it might have something to
do with my recently-installed and untested DELUA, I removed it, but I
get the same result.
No guarantees but might give useful data: do you have any RSTS lying
around? Its INIT.SYS (the pre-boot system) is *very* ladylike about
frotzed hardware, so it may well pop up a message that leads directly
to the problem, just on the way to that first prompt (and if you do get
that far, "HA LI" might tell you about surprises in your config).
When do you say it hangs, do you mean it's looping (executing PDP-11
code -- might be worth seeing what and/or looking at the stack to see
how it got there), or that the bus is hung and the CPU is stuck?
The hardware is, as far as I can tell, otherwise fine. I built the
system up from parts a few weeks ago, and have exercised it with RT-11.
The order of dependence on strictly working (and/or accurately emulated)
hardware goes: RT => RSX => RSTS. So the fact that something works
with RT proves *nothing*! (I've learned this the hard way so many times.)
Of course, looked at another way, it's nice of RT to be willing to run
on hardware that's not long for this world...
John Wilson
D Bit
>Johnny Billquist wrote:
>On 2013-12-31 02:53, Dave McGuire wrote:
>On 12/27/2013 04:16 AM, goran ahling wrote:
As I remember the SYSGEN/NETGEN task, the controller intended for DECnet
should NOT be taken into SYSGEN at all, but later, at the totally
separate task of performing NETGEN once Your OS. is up and running, it
should be included there. So, no need to redo your SYSGEN when playing
with different Ethernet cards.
Ahh, excellent. Thank you.
I've run into a snag, though. I'm trying to allow sysgen to
autoconfigure the hardware via ACF, and it hangs on my 11/24 system.
I've tried with both 4.3 and 4.6. Thinking it might have something to
do with my recently-installed and untested DELUA, I removed it, but I
get the same result.
So I completed sysgens via manual hardware configuration entry, both
with and without the DELUA. Both sysgen runs completed successfully,
but the system hangs when I try to boot the new executive.
The hardware is, as far as I can tell, otherwise fine. I built the
system up from parts a few weeks ago, and have exercised it with RT-11.
Everything seems ok. The baseline RSX system boots just fine.
I've set up an identically-configured instance of simh, and run
through the same process on that, and it works.
My next step is to pull it out of the rack and triple check things
like the memory boards' CSRs and such, etc., but I thought I'd ask here
first.
I last ran an RSX sysgen almost thirty years ago, and I barely
remember it at all...but I'm certain nothing like this happened. That
was on an 11/34 with RL01s, RL02s, and RK07s.
Any thoughts?
Others have come with some suggestions. I'll stick my neck out and say that some device isn't working properly. RSX probes and kicks devices at startup (check that they respond to their CSRs, and for some check that they generate interrupts). I don't think RT-11 do that as much. Also, it might be that the device in question isn't even configured in RT-11.
When both autoconfigure fails and a generated system fails, it's one of the controllers that you have genned in that is causing you problems.
Anyway. My first suspicion would be a DMA controller with the NPR wire still in place. But there might be some other controller broken as well.
I do not think you have power problems, although I wouldn't totally rule it out. But I would expect you to see problems with RT-11 as well, if that was the case. Or with the Baseline RSX system.
What you do see is typical of one specific controller blocking you. Unfortunately, with 11M it isn't that easy to spot which one, as the probing of the controller are done automatically right at the start of the booting.
In M+ it is done in a different way, which makes it easier to troubleshoot.
Happy New Year to everyone who uses the Common Era calendar,
since by the time this reply is read, New Year's day of 2014 will have
already started for some individuals.
In addition, if anyone who is reading this still uses RT-11 to change
RT-11 programs and uses the RT-11 Symbolic Debugger, SD:, I
have a question at the very end.
I can offer a few comments on the basic operations which occur when
RT-11 boots, but only at the operating system level. I am not aware of
exactly what occurs within each device driver, let alone the exact details
of the code in the installation section of any device driver.
During an RT-11 boot, other than the device driver which is used as the
system device, RT-11 only attempts to INSTALL the other device drivers.
If I remember correctly, RT-11 checks all the files on the system device
to determine if they are valid device drivers for the operating system
which is being booted. Both Mapped and UnMapped operating
systems (specifically the file for the operating system) can coexist on
the same system device along with separate device drivers for both
types of operating systems.
The primary boot code for RT-11 (at least after V04.00 of RT-11
in 1980) was a single block in block zero of the system device and was
obtained from the device driver and written into block zero along
with the secondary boot code in blocks 2, 3, 4 and 5 via:
COPY/BOOT DL0:RT11FB.SYS DL0:
as just one example for the RL01 / RL02 devices with an UnMapped
variant of the RT-11 operating system. The primary boot code is from
the device driver, DL0:DL.SYS, while the secondary boot code is from
the operating system file, DL0:RT11FB.SYS
During the RT-11 boot, RT-11 attempts to INSTALL all the device
drivers on the system device which are compatible with the operating
system. In general, RT-11 attempts to execute the installation code
from each compatible device driver which, except for the resident
system device, consists of an access to the IOPAGE registers that
are used by the device driver. Sometimes the device driver file
contains additional code, but if I remember correctly, no data device
driver (all devices are data devices if they are not the system device)
in RT-11 requires any interrupts.
So if booting RSX-11 requires device interrupts, that might be the reason.
You could attempt to isolate the device responsible in RT-11 by an
attempt to use each device driver after RT-11 boots.
As for using SD: (the RT-11 Symbolic Debugger), does anyone find
that SDHX.SYS uses too much low memory (1125 words)? Would
having an option to retain the Program Counter Locations (at least
the last 1000 addresses executed - in a circular buffer, of course) be
of help in debugging RT-11 code? Another option which I would
appreciate would be the ability to support the temporary execution
of other jobs while the current job being execution is placed into
.Wait state. Does anyone else agree? Under TSX-Plus and RSX-11,
that happens automatically, in addition to using VDT under RT-11.
BUT, SDHX.SYS freezes the complete RT-11 system when the
code being debugged is stopped at a break point.
Jerome Fine
On 2013-12-31 02:53, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 12/27/2013 04:16 AM, goran ahling wrote:
As I remember the SYSGEN/NETGEN task, the controller intended for DECnet
should NOT be taken into SYSGEN at all, but later, at the totally
separate task of performing NETGEN once Your OS. is up and running, it
should be included there. So, no need to redo your SYSGEN when playing
with different Ethernet cards.
Ahh, excellent. Thank you.
I've run into a snag, though. I'm trying to allow sysgen to
autoconfigure the hardware via ACF, and it hangs on my 11/24 system.
I've tried with both 4.3 and 4.6. Thinking it might have something to
do with my recently-installed and untested DELUA, I removed it, but I
get the same result.
So I completed sysgens via manual hardware configuration entry, both
with and without the DELUA. Both sysgen runs completed successfully,
but the system hangs when I try to boot the new executive.
The hardware is, as far as I can tell, otherwise fine. I built the
system up from parts a few weeks ago, and have exercised it with RT-11.
Everything seems ok. The baseline RSX system boots just fine.
I've set up an identically-configured instance of simh, and run
through the same process on that, and it works.
My next step is to pull it out of the rack and triple check things
like the memory boards' CSRs and such, etc., but I thought I'd ask here
first.
I last ran an RSX sysgen almost thirty years ago, and I barely
remember it at all...but I'm certain nothing like this happened. That
was on an 11/34 with RL01s, RL02s, and RK07s.
Any thoughts?
Others have come with some suggestions. I'll stick my neck out and say that some device isn't working properly. RSX probes and kicks devices at startup (check that they respond to their CSRs, and for some check that they generate interrupts). I don't think RT-11 do that as much. Also, it might be that the device in question isn't even configured in RT-11.
When both autoconfigure fails and a generated system fails, it's one of the controllers that you have genned in that is causing you problems.
Anyway. My first suspicion would be a DMA controller with the NPR wire still in place. But there might be some other controller broken as well.
I do not think you have power problems, although I wouldn't totally rule it out. But I would expect you to see problems with RT-11 as well, if that was the case. Or with the Baseline RSX system.
What you do see is typical of one specific controller blocking you. Unfortunately, with 11M it isn't that easy to spot which one, as the probing of the controller are done automatically right at the start of the booting.
In M+ it is done in a different way, which makes it easier to troubleshoot.
Johnny
Hello!
Cory being right around here is almost dangerous, especially since its
dangerous to be too right too soon. (Or however that goes.)
Actually that is always the first thing to consider.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Dec 2013, Gregg Levine wrote:
Hello!
Do what I do when I get confronted by a very unhappy system. Examine
all of the steps you followed to get that far. And remember, the
system you are looking at has a reason for being unhappy, and it
probably isn't yourself.
I stick with my PSU theory. ;>
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 8:53 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 12/27/2013 04:16 AM, goran ahling wrote:
As I remember the SYSGEN/NETGEN task, the controller intended for DECnet
should NOT be taken into SYSGEN at all, but later, at the totally
separate task of performing NETGEN once Your OS. is up and running, it
should be included there. So, no need to redo your SYSGEN when playing
with different Ethernet cards.
Ahh, excellent. Thank you.
I've run into a snag, though. I'm trying to allow sysgen to
autoconfigure the hardware via ACF, and it hangs on my 11/24 system.
I've tried with both 4.3 and 4.6. Thinking it might have something to
do with my recently-installed and untested DELUA, I removed it, but I
get the same result.
So I completed sysgens via manual hardware configuration entry, both
with and without the DELUA. Both sysgen runs completed successfully,
but the system hangs when I try to boot the new executive.
The hardware is, as far as I can tell, otherwise fine. I built the
system up from parts a few weeks ago, and have exercised it with RT-11.
Everything seems ok. The baseline RSX system boots just fine.
I've set up an identically-configured instance of simh, and run
through the same process on that, and it works.
My next step is to pull it out of the rack and triple check things
like the memory boards' CSRs and such, etc., but I thought I'd ask here
first.
I last ran an RSX sysgen almost thirty years ago, and I barely
remember it at all...but I'm certain nothing like this happened. That
was on an 11/34 with RL01s, RL02s, and RK07s.
Any thoughts?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
