On Sat, 15 Nov 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Unfortunately I do not have much details. I was at the Living Computer Museum and talked with RIch Alderson, who used to work at XKL. And he showed me a newer generation router from XKL, opened up, at LCM. And they use a PDP-10 on a chip, and it was actually running TOPS-20, and I could play around at the EXEC level in there.
Very, very interesting!
But for normal usage, customers would just see this as a router from XKL, with a command interface, in addition to SNMP. No way they would ever know that it's actually TOPS-20 in there.
Huh. Dave and I'll need to pull some strings...;)
I do not know if they use this same setup in all their products, or just some. And I don't remember exactly what product LCM at on display. But I can check that up next week, as I am in Seattle then.
Please do! I am very interested!
See if they've gotten anywhere with getting the rights to release the CompuServe Monitor source, too.
Johnny
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On 2014-11-15 14:19, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 11/15/2014 05:10 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
It's certainly possible (IMO) that it could be brought into this era
technologically, as it has a good base to build on, but I don't know of
any companies or investors who would support such work. I think it
should happen, but it likely will not.
Think of it this way. Remember "wash boards"? I don't know if you
have a different term for them in Sweden, but they are how we washed
clothes a century ago, before automated washing machines. It's a rough
metal plate in a wooden frame that sticks out of a bucket of soapy
water, and you rub the clothes on it to flush out the dirt. If the wash
board is patented, and someone still owns that patent, it's very
unlikely that anyone in the business world would consider that patent to
be worth anything, for the obvious reason.
Analogies are always problematic.
Consider this - a piece of software used in embedded applications is a
piece of software you will probably never hear of. Might not even be
possible to buy if you tried.
Well yes, I understand that. I am an embedded systems developer. But
see below.
Does that mean it is dead, or have no value?
This is the state of TOPS-20 at the moment. It is being used as embedded
software, that you'll never see, or hear of. But it's still alive.
I'm aware of the use of the XKL chipset's application in the network
switches, but I was unaware of their use of TOPS-20. I thought they
were running a bare-metal firmware load written for that purpose. Is
this not the case, are they actually running TOPS-20, or at least some
part(s) of it, on those embedded processors?
If so, I need to pull a few strings and get my hands on one. Or several.
Yes, they are running TOPS-20. But exactly how much of it, I can't tell. I'm no expert on TOPS-20, and mostly go on what I can recall Rich Alderson telling me.
Johnny
On 2014-11-15 14:13, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote:
This is the state of TOPS-20 at the moment. It is being used as
embedded software, that you'll never see, or hear of. But it's still
alive.
I am very interested in the embedded use of TOPS-20, do you happen to
know of a specific (documented...I want to know all about the thing if
it runs TOPS-20!) product using it?
Unfortunately I do not have much details. I was at the Living Computer Museum and talked with RIch Alderson, who used to work at XKL. And he showed me a newer generation router from XKL, opened up, at LCM. And they use a PDP-10 on a chip, and it was actually running TOPS-20, and I could play around at the EXEC level in there.
But for normal usage, customers would just see this as a router from XKL, with a command interface, in addition to SNMP. No way they would ever know that it's actually TOPS-20 in there.
I do not know if they use this same setup in all their products, or just some. And I don't remember exactly what product LCM at on display. But I can check that up next week, as I am in Seattle then.
Johnny
On Sat, 15 Nov 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2014-11-15 14:04, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Uh...this is gonna seem a little strange...
Does anyone have a copy of Kermit somewhere DECNET accessible...along
with how I can get
$ dir 1.13::
Node: 1.13
User: decnet\
Password:
System Password:
?NFT -- Connection rejected to node 1.13
?NFT -- Access not permitted
to behave happily for guest access?
As for KERMIT - For what system? :-)
RSTS/E 10.1, 11/23+ 512K(bytes) of memory.
As for accessing MIM, just enable outgoing proxy in NCP. Or else use GUEST/GUEST.
I should probably definitely figure out ncp on RSTS/E
Johnny
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On 2014-11-15 14:04, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Uh...this is gonna seem a little strange...
Does anyone have a copy of Kermit somewhere DECNET accessible...along
with how I can get
$ dir 1.13::
Node: 1.13
User: decnet\
Password:
System Password:
?NFT -- Connection rejected to node 1.13
?NFT -- Access not permitted
to behave happily for guest access?
As for KERMIT - For what system? :-)
As for accessing MIM, just enable outgoing proxy in NCP. Or else use GUEST/GUEST.
Johnny
Hello!
That's my job.
Seriously though Johnny, the problem behind the problem that Cory is
worried about is simple. Being sued by some <DELETED!> individual with
less common sense concerning the OS he wants to use properly.
And that <DELETED!> individual insists otherwise hence the silly lawsuit.
And incidentally only here in this country can this happen.
Preposterous! isn't it?
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 5:01 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 11/15/2014 04:45 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Think of it this way. Remember "wash boards"? I don't know if you
have a different term for them in Sweden, but they are how we washed
clothes a century ago, before automated washing machines. It's a rough
metal plate in a wooden frame that sticks out of a bucket of soapy
water, and you rub the clothes on it to flush out the dirt. If the wash
board is patented, and someone still owns that patent, it's very
unlikely that anyone in the business world would consider that patent to
be worth anything, for the obvious reason.
I think the washboard would've gone the way of the Audion...the patent
expired if it WAS patented.
Yes, but surely you see my point.
I do, I'm just being a smartass. ;)
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On 11/15/2014 05:10 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
It's certainly possible (IMO) that it could be brought into this era
technologically, as it has a good base to build on, but I don't know of
any companies or investors who would support such work. I think it
should happen, but it likely will not.
Think of it this way. Remember "wash boards"? I don't know if you
have a different term for them in Sweden, but they are how we washed
clothes a century ago, before automated washing machines. It's a rough
metal plate in a wooden frame that sticks out of a bucket of soapy
water, and you rub the clothes on it to flush out the dirt. If the wash
board is patented, and someone still owns that patent, it's very
unlikely that anyone in the business world would consider that patent to
be worth anything, for the obvious reason.
Analogies are always problematic.
Consider this - a piece of software used in embedded applications is a
piece of software you will probably never hear of. Might not even be
possible to buy if you tried.
Well yes, I understand that. I am an embedded systems developer. But
see below.
Does that mean it is dead, or have no value?
This is the state of TOPS-20 at the moment. It is being used as embedded
software, that you'll never see, or hear of. But it's still alive.
I'm aware of the use of the XKL chipset's application in the network
switches, but I was unaware of their use of TOPS-20. I thought they
were running a bare-metal firmware load written for that purpose. Is
this not the case, are they actually running TOPS-20, or at least some
part(s) of it, on those embedded processors?
If so, I need to pull a few strings and get my hands on one. Or several.
But more broadly speaking, any kind of software have the same issue.
Just because you do not see it used anywhere does not mean this is not
the case. Assuming noone cares anymore just because you cannot find it
used anywhere does not work. And even when noone actually do not care
anymore, it is still sad when it is assumed that you can take liberties
based on that assumption.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not condemning those who want to run cool
software, or play with odd technology, and feel that there is no legal
way of doing that. I just dislike when people try to present it in a way
that make it sound like it was actually legal/ok/right.
Understood and agreed.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On Sat, 15 Nov 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote:
This is the state of TOPS-20 at the moment. It is being used as embedded software, that you'll never see, or hear of. But it's still alive.
I am very interested in the embedded use of TOPS-20, do you happen to know of a specific (documented...I want to know all about the thing if it runs TOPS-20!) product using it?
But more broadly speaking, any kind of software have the same issue. Just because you do not see it used anywhere does not mean this is not the case. Assuming noone cares anymore just because you cannot find it used anywhere does not work. And even when noone actually do not care anymore, it is still sad when it is assumed that you can take liberties based on that assumption.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not condemning those who want to run cool software, or play with odd technology, and feel that there is no legal way of doing that. I just dislike when people try to present it in a way that make it sound like it was actually legal/ok/right.
Johnny
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On 2014-11-15 13:38, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 11/15/2014 04:31 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
By the way - why do people assume that people would not want to protect
their rights?
This whole attitude scares me a little.
In this case, it's because the rights are to a decades-old OS that is
viewed by the business world as being nothing more than a long-dead
historical curiosity.
That is a mistaken assumption. Just because most have long since
forgotten it does not mean it is dead.
Don't take what I'm saying the wrong way. I love those OSs too. But
that's not the point.
Agreed.
We know it's awesome, and we understand why, but let's put it this
way...Windows is fast disappearing, and it's not exactly TOPS-10/20
that's killing it.
Yeah. Not sure how relevant that is, though.
It's very relevant. TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 are great OSs, I will never
dispute that, but they are no longer commercially viable in the
mainstream. We will never see TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 for sale to the
public in retail packages. Further, it's highly unlikely that we'll see
it making serious inroads in data center use.
Neither Dell, Apple, IBM, nor HP will be selling TOPS-10/TOPS-20
machines anytime soon. That's really all it boils down to. It *is* a
dead platform, commercially speaking.
No. You are making the wrong assumption that it has to be a generic OS for sale to the public in order for it to have any commercial value, or to be a viable product of any sort.
It's certainly possible (IMO) that it could be brought into this era
technologically, as it has a good base to build on, but I don't know of
any companies or investors who would support such work. I think it
should happen, but it likely will not.
Think of it this way. Remember "wash boards"? I don't know if you
have a different term for them in Sweden, but they are how we washed
clothes a century ago, before automated washing machines. It's a rough
metal plate in a wooden frame that sticks out of a bucket of soapy
water, and you rub the clothes on it to flush out the dirt. If the wash
board is patented, and someone still owns that patent, it's very
unlikely that anyone in the business world would consider that patent to
be worth anything, for the obvious reason.
Analogies are always problematic.
Consider this - a piece of software used in embedded applications is a piece of software you will probably never hear of. Might not even be possible to buy if you tried. Does that mean it is dead, or have no value?
This is the state of TOPS-20 at the moment. It is being used as embedded software, that you'll never see, or hear of. But it's still alive.
But more broadly speaking, any kind of software have the same issue. Just because you do not see it used anywhere does not mean this is not the case. Assuming noone cares anymore just because you cannot find it used anywhere does not work. And even when noone actually do not care anymore, it is still sad when it is assumed that you can take liberties based on that assumption.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not condemning those who want to run cool software, or play with odd technology, and feel that there is no legal way of doing that. I just dislike when people try to present it in a way that make it sound like it was actually legal/ok/right.
Johnny
Uh...this is gonna seem a little strange...
Does anyone have a copy of Kermit somewhere DECNET accessible...along with how I can get
$ dir 1.13::
Node: 1.13
User: decnet\
Password:
System Password:
?NFT -- Connection rejected to node 1.13
?NFT -- Access not permitted
to behave happily for guest access?
I'd copy it locally...but for some strange reason LAT to my VAXstation 4000/60 results in a reboot...it also appears confused about its license status.
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
