A simple batch job will take care of this. Include in the batch job a "resubmit" so that you do not have to remember to run the procedure in the future. You might do it monthly or maybe even weekly.
The other direction is a bit more work, but certainly possible. At this point Johnny has to ensure that no one creates a namespace collision by using the same node name twice.
-Steve
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Ian McLaughlin
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 15:15
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet area router configuration
Does a COPY KNOWN NODES FROM xxx remove nodes in your local database that aren't listed any more?
It's fairly easy to run a COPY KNOWN NODES command once in a while. I guess the only piece missing is an automated way for MIM to get updates from everyone else.
Ian.
On 2009-12-03, at 12:10 PM, Sampsa Laine wrote:
The only (and this is a very minor) benefit that I can see in a distributed naming system is that this way each owner of say an area could update the name database for his network and have it automagically propagate, rather than a centralised system we have right now which requires your time to keep up to date.
But it's not really that big a benefit to warrant the effort - just automate the periodic copying of the database from MIM would be my suggestion as well...
Sampsa
On 3 Dec 2009, at 20:07, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Johnny Billquist wrote:
Node list don't even get transmitted within the same area.
Node names are local to each machine, and it is perfectly valid to have
different names for the same node number on different machines (although
perhaps confusing).
How hard would it be to write software as equivalent to DNS? Not necessarily for general-purpose use, but just for HECnet?
For what? Just copying the nodename database between machines? The
software can already do that, so it would just be a question of
automating it a bit.
If you'd like to get a name lookup done from some central place at each
nodename lookup would be almost impossible. You'd need the source code
for DECnet, and the ability to recompile it for that to be possible. Not
likely, I'm afraid.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
---
Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here: http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=E4AFF6EEE04711DE9…
Does a COPY KNOWN NODES FROM xxx remove nodes in your local database that aren't listed any more?
It's fairly easy to run a COPY KNOWN NODES command once in a while. I guess the only piece missing is an automated way for MIM to get updates from everyone else.
Ian.
On 2009-12-03, at 12:10 PM, Sampsa Laine wrote:
The only (and this is a very minor) benefit that I can see in a distributed naming system is that this way each owner of say an area could update the name database for his network and have it automagically propagate, rather than a centralised system we have right now which requires your time to keep up to date.
But it's not really that big a benefit to warrant the effort - just automate the periodic copying of the database from MIM would be my suggestion as well...
Sampsa
On 3 Dec 2009, at 20:07, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Johnny Billquist wrote:
Node list don't even get transmitted within the same area.
Node names are local to each machine, and it is perfectly valid to have
different names for the same node number on different machines (although
perhaps confusing).
How hard would it be to write software as equivalent to DNS? Not necessarily for general-purpose use, but just for HECnet?
For what? Just copying the nodename database between machines? The
software can already do that, so it would just be a question of
automating it a bit.
If you'd like to get a name lookup done from some central place at each
nodename lookup would be almost impossible. You'd need the source code
for DECnet, and the ability to recompile it for that to be possible. Not
likely, I'm afraid.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
---
Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here: http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=E4AFF6EEE04711DE9…
The only (and this is a very minor) benefit that I can see in a distributed naming system is that this way each owner of say an area could update the name database for his network and have it automagically propagate, rather than a centralised system we have right now which requires your time to keep up to date.
But it's not really that big a benefit to warrant the effort - just automate the periodic copying of the database from MIM would be my suggestion as well...
Sampsa
On 3 Dec 2009, at 20:07, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Johnny Billquist wrote:
Node list don't even get transmitted within the same area.
Node names are local to each machine, and it is perfectly valid to have
different names for the same node number on different machines (although
perhaps confusing).
How hard would it be to write software as equivalent to DNS? Not necessarily for general-purpose use, but just for HECnet?
For what? Just copying the nodename database between machines? The
software can already do that, so it would just be a question of
automating it a bit.
If you'd like to get a name lookup done from some central place at each
nodename lookup would be almost impossible. You'd need the source code
for DECnet, and the ability to recompile it for that to be possible. Not
likely, I'm afraid.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Johnny Billquist wrote:
Node list don't even get transmitted within the same area.
Node names are local to each machine, and it is perfectly valid to have
different names for the same node number on different machines (although
perhaps confusing).
How hard would it be to write software as equivalent to DNS? Not necessarily for general-purpose use, but just for HECnet?
For what? Just copying the nodename database between machines? The
software can already do that, so it would just be a question of
automating it a bit.
If you'd like to get a name lookup done from some central place at each
nodename lookup would be almost impossible. You'd need the source code
for DECnet, and the ability to recompile it for that to be possible. Not
likely, I'm afraid.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Kari Uusim ki wrote:
There is already DECdns in DECnet Phase V aka DECnet-Plus.
If you want to use it, you can just create the database and then
populate it e.g. from the MIM's nodelist.
But is there any similar method available for Phase IV?
Peace... Sridhar
Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Johnny Billquist wrote:
Node list don't even get transmitted within the same area.
Node names are local to each machine, and it is perfectly valid to have
different names for the same node number on different machines (although
perhaps confusing).
How hard would it be to write software as equivalent to DNS? Not necessarily for general-purpose use, but just for HECnet?
Peace... Sridhar
.
There is already DECdns in DECnet Phase V aka DECnet-Plus.
If you want to use it, you can just create the database and then populate it e.g. from the MIM's nodelist.
Johnny Billquist wrote:
Node list don't even get transmitted within the same area.
Node names are local to each machine, and it is perfectly valid to have
different names for the same node number on different machines (although
perhaps confusing).
How hard would it be to write software as equivalent to DNS? Not necessarily for general-purpose use, but just for HECnet?
Peace... Sridhar
Yes, I would say that copying the nodename database from MIM is the
canonical way of having an updated and "correct" nodename database.
Correct is somewhat misleading perhaps, as their isn't anything
incorrect with whatever nodename database you want to use.
But for a "uniform" view of nodenames on HECnet, MIM is the source.
And for you VMS guys out there, you should get a copy by typing (and the
NCP prompt)
"COPY KNOWN NODES FROM MIM TO BOTH"
Johnny
Sampsa Laine wrote:
I periodically COPY KNOWN NODES FROM MIM on all my machines, I consider MIM to be the canonical host list. Not sure if this is correct but has worked for me so far.
Sampsa
On 3 Dec 2009, at 19:06, gerry77 at mail.com wrote:
On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 10:53:31 -0800, you wrote:
SHOW KNOWN AREAS is showing 9 areas, which is good. SHOW KNOWN NODES isn't
showing any new nodes though. And a TELL 1.400 SHOW KNOWN NODES isn't
showing my nodes yet. (I'm area 42 if you start seeing it in the node list).
I'd have to check the docs, but IIRC the node list doesn't get transmitted
to different areas. Area routers exchange among themselves infos about their
area reachability and answer yes or not to the reachability of any node
under their scope (i.e. in their area), but do not transfer the whole area
contents to other nodes.
To see new nodes in SHOW KNOWN NODES you'll have to do a COPY KNOWN NODES
from a node that already knows the nodes you are interested in, then you'll
see all the nodes on a reachable area marked as reachable (even if the
specific node is powered off).
But do not take for granted this whole theory. :-)
G.
Usual disclaimer: Excuse my English: it's not my native language.
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Node list don't even get transmitted within the same area.
Node names are local to each machine, and it is perfectly valid to have
different names for the same node number on different machines (although
perhaps confusing).
All routers transmit a connectivity information packet to every other
node within the same area. All area routers also transmit an area
connectivity packet to other area routers.
But these are just with node numbers, there are no node names
transmitted in these.
So it's a two level hierarchy. End nodes knows where the closest level
one router is (must have direct connection to it). All area one routers
knows the exact layout of their own area, and knows the shortest path to
any node within the area. Level one routers also knows where the closest
level two (area) router is. Level two routers knows the exact layout of
all level two routers, and the shortest path to any other level two
router (and thus any area).
Obviously, this means that all level one routers in one area must be
connected to all other routers within that same area, by just passing
through other level one routers.
And all level two routers must be connected (directly) to all other
level two routers by just going through level two routers.
Johnny
gerry77 at mail.com wrote:
On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 10:53:31 -0800, you wrote:
SHOW KNOWN AREAS is showing 9 areas, which is good. SHOW KNOWN NODES isn't showing any new nodes though. And a TELL 1.400 SHOW KNOWN NODES isn't showing my nodes yet. (I'm area 42 if you start seeing it in the node list).
I'd have to check the docs, but IIRC the node list doesn't get transmitted
to different areas. Area routers exchange among themselves infos about their
area reachability and answer yes or not to the reachability of any node
under their scope (i.e. in their area), but do not transfer the whole area
contents to other nodes.
To see new nodes in SHOW KNOWN NODES you'll have to do a COPY KNOWN NODES
from a node that already knows the nodes you are interested in, then you'll
see all the nodes on a reachable area marked as reachable (even if the
specific node is powered off).
But do not take for granted this whole theory. :-)
G.
Usual disclaimer: Excuse my English: it's not my native language.
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
That would be expected when you haven't defined any nodenames for nodes
in area 42.
As a reminder to everyone. DECnet phase IV don't have any centralized
nodename database. Every machine has his own nodename database.
And you need to update it occasionally if you want to have any new nodes
appear in there.
Otherwise you might just see node numbers, without any node names
associated with them. And such nodes are not "known". :-)
Johnny
Sampsa Laine wrote:
Well GORVAX can see area 42 but no nodes in it..
CHIMPY$ ncp tell gorvax show known areas
Known Area Volatile Summary as of 3-DEC-2009 19:57:20
Area State Circuit Next node to area
1 reachable 1.400 (GORVAX)
2 reachable TCP-0-0 2.17 (CHARON)
3 reachable TCP-0-0 2.17 (CHARON)
11 reachable QNA-0 11.2 (MAISA)
19 reachable QNA-0 19.11 (AGENA)
42 reachable QNA-0 42.1
51 reachable TCP-0-0 2.17 (CHARON)
59 reachable TCP-0-0 2.17 (CHARON)
60 reachable QNA-0 60.664 (PDXVAX)
On 3 Dec 2009, at 18:53, Ian McLaughlin wrote:
On 2009-12-03, at 10:49 AM, gerry77 at mail.com <mailto:gerry77 at mail.com> wrote:
At the moment I cannot remember if @SYS$MANAGER:NETCONFIG.COM asks something
about configuring a node as an area router, but I'm assuming that it doesn't
ask anything, or you wouldn't be here asking for help. :-)
As a starting point you may just type the following:
$ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:NCP
NCP> SET EXECUTOR STATE SHUT
NCP> DEFINE EXECUTOR TYPE AREA
NCP> EXIT
$ @SYS$MANAGER:STARTNET
If I'm not wrong, this should be enough to transform your node into an area
router; then you may want to revise your configuration to tune it better.
You are correct - NETCONFIG doesn't ask about level 1 or 2 - just whether you're a router or not. Your commands (which I'm sure I tried some time during the last 24 hours, but I'm not sure) followed by a reboot seems to have fixed it. Thanks!
SHOW KNOWN AREAS is showing 9 areas, which is good. SHOW KNOWN NODES isn't showing any new nodes though. And a TELL 1.400 SHOW KNOWN NODES isn't showing my nodes yet. (I'm area 42 if you start seeing it in the node list).
At least there's some connectivity. I'll keep working. Thanks for the help.
Ian.
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
