HECnet

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2 participants
15561 discussions

by bqt＠softjar.se

So, when are you finally going to join HECnet? :-) Johnny gerry77 at mail.com wrote: On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:56:39 -0500, you wrote: My version splits out LAT from MOP, adds SCA (LAVc) and LAST (InfoServer). The LAT/MOP split has been verified to work. LAVc support is being tested now. The LAST support testing is pending. I'll take advantage of this message to say that here in this mailing list I'm a little bit like an impostor, because in truth I'm not a member of HECnet, but of another Hobbyist DECnet based in Italy. :-P We are now running a quite modified version of Johnny's bridge: we departed from his project because some of us have connection and bandwidth issues that prevent the development of a strictly star-topology network as required by the HECnet bridge. We started experimenting many years ago (in the 2002-2004 timeframe) with Multinet and TCPware tunnels but were not happy with that solution because many of us had (and some still have) dynamic IP addresses which forced a tunnel recofiguration at every address change! At the time, we already did know about HECnet but not about the bridge, either because it didn't yet exist or because it was still unpublished, so we were forced to abandon out dreams of a DECnet of ours. About three years ago, in the first days of december 2006, we learnt about the bridge and started again our experiments, but we soon understood that we were in need of some changes (among other things we had some nasty packet loops in the first days), so we asked to Johnny the permission to modify his work and here we go: our network is nominally made up of about 30 nodes, all in the same area, but only three to four are online 24/7, and has a full mesh topology, that is every bridge is connected to every other bridge (but we later added a feature that allows for mixed topology networks). If someone is interested in the full feature list and other details, such as some DECnet tuning we needed, s/he can contact me off list. :-) Going back to the original topic, we choose to keep LAT and MOP together, and added LAST to the same group of protocols (but we renamed the .conf section from [lat] to [lan]). Instead, we didn't ever consider transporting SCA across the Internet because it's too much a time-sensitive protocol and would be probably almost useless, at least here. Did you succeeded, Steve, in keeping on quorum a cluster across the bridge and the Internet? Cheers, G. -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

15 years, 6 months

DECnet area router configuration

by bqt＠softjar.se

RSX have taken another step that I don't know if you are aware of, Paul. Yes, NCP is for the volatile database only. RSX then also have CFE, which works pretty much the same way as NCP, but for the permanent database. And as a third tool, there is VNP, which is odd in this sense, since it affects parts of the DECnet operations, but on the image that is booted (that is, you can perform a bunch of NCP commands on the volatile database, but it's kind of "permanent" since it's done on a file image that is booted, so in effect you are doing the NCP commands before the system even boots). However, RSX also moved the nodename database totally out of the main DECned code, and have in fact a separate task that actually handles nodename to number translations, called NNS. So, both SCP and NCP as well as all tasks indirectly talks with NNS whenever a nodename is given. NCP under RSX (and CFE and VNP) furthermore don't have a COPY command. But in connection with NNS is also a task called NNC, which can be used to pull node names from another node into the nodename database used by NNS. So that do the same thing as COPY in VMS (and some more stuff). I suspect that one reason NCP and CFE was two different tasks in RSX was probably for resource reasons. It was probably difficult to combine them into one program for small RSX systems. Johnny Paul Koning wrote: Ditto for the other DECnets. "COPY KNOWN NODES" is a VMS-specific extension. RSX is a particularly odd case, with its separate utility for handling volatile vs. non-volatile stuff. That's not what the architecture called for. DECnet/VMS and DECnet/E are much closer to standard. Not that the network management spec was ever a complete standard; it was inevitable that every OS would need OS-specific extensions, the question was only how closely the final result would resemble what the spec talks about. paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 4:03 PM To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet area router configuration Well, the procedure in RSX is totally different anyway, so that's no help. RSX have a totally separate task to handle node name stuff. And NCP is only used for the volatile database. Johnny Steve Davidson wrote: You need to use the "with purge" option for this to happen - at least in VMS anyway. -Steve -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 15:21 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet area router configuration Actually, I'm not entirely sure (I don't use VMS much nowadays), but I think it might remove all previous definitions before doing the copy. But that is easy to test. Just add a definition for some odd node that don't exist, and then do a copy. Johnny Ian McLaughlin wrote: Does a COPY KNOWN NODES FROM xxx remove nodes in your local database that aren't listed any more? It's fairly easy to run a COPY KNOWN NODES command once in a while. I guess the only piece missing is an automated way for MIM to get updates from everyone else. Ian. On 2009-12-03, at 12:10 PM, Sampsa Laine wrote: The only (and this is a very minor) benefit that I can see in a distributed naming system is that this way each owner of say an area could update the name database for his network and have it automagically propagate, rather than a centralised system we have right now which requires your time to keep up to date. But it's not really that big a benefit to warrant the effort - just automate the periodic copying of the database from MIM would be my suggestion as well... Sampsa On 3 Dec 2009, at 20:07, Johnny Billquist wrote: Sridhar Ayengar wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: Node list don't even get transmitted within the same area. Node names are local to each machine, and it is perfectly valid to have different names for the same node number on different machines (although perhaps confusing). How hard would it be to write software as equivalent to DNS? Not necessarily for general-purpose use, but just for HECnet? For what? Just copying the nodename database between machines? The software can already do that, so it would just be a question of automating it a bit. If you'd like to get a name lookup done from some central place at each nodename lookup would be almost impossible. You'd need the source code for DECnet, and the ability to recompile it for that to be possible. Not likely, I'm afraid. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se <mailto:bqt at softjar.se> || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol --- Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here: http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi- bin/learn.pl?messageid=E4AFF6EEE04711 DE98D9899E93ED0201 -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

15 years, 6 months

Others DECnets (was: Boot VAX from Alpha host Infoserver?)

by gerry77＠mail.com

On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:56:39 -0500, you wrote: My version splits out LAT from MOP, adds SCA (LAVc) and LAST (InfoServer). The LAT/MOP split has been verified to work. LAVc support is being tested now. The LAST support testing is pending. I'll take advantage of this message to say that here in this mailing list I'm a little bit like an impostor, because in truth I'm not a member of HECnet, but of another Hobbyist DECnet based in Italy. :-P We are now running a quite modified version of Johnny's bridge: we departed from his project because some of us have connection and bandwidth issues that prevent the development of a strictly star-topology network as required by the HECnet bridge. We started experimenting many years ago (in the 2002-2004 timeframe) with Multinet and TCPware tunnels but were not happy with that solution because many of us had (and some still have) dynamic IP addresses which forced a tunnel recofiguration at every address change! At the time, we already did know about HECnet but not about the bridge, either because it didn't yet exist or because it was still unpublished, so we were forced to abandon out dreams of a DECnet of ours. About three years ago, in the first days of december 2006, we learnt about the bridge and started again our experiments, but we soon understood that we were in need of some changes (among other things we had some nasty packet loops in the first days), so we asked to Johnny the permission to modify his work and here we go: our network is nominally made up of about 30 nodes, all in the same area, but only three to four are online 24/7, and has a full mesh topology, that is every bridge is connected to every other bridge (but we later added a feature that allows for mixed topology networks). If someone is interested in the full feature list and other details, such as some DECnet tuning we needed, s/he can contact me off list. :-) Going back to the original topic, we choose to keep LAT and MOP together, and added LAST to the same group of protocols (but we renamed the .conf section from [lat] to [lan]). Instead, we didn't ever consider transporting SCA across the Internet because it's too much a time-sensitive protocol and would be probably almost useless, at least here. Did you succeeded, Steve, in keeping on quorum a cluster across the bridge and the Internet? Cheers, G.

15 years, 6 months

DECnet area router configuration

by Paul_Koning＠Dell.com

Ditto for the other DECnets. "COPY KNOWN NODES" is a VMS-specific extension. RSX is a particularly odd case, with its separate utility for handling volatile vs. non-volatile stuff. That's not what the architecture called for. DECnet/VMS and DECnet/E are much closer to standard. Not that the network management spec was ever a complete standard; it was inevitable that every OS would need OS-specific extensions, the question was only how closely the final result would resemble what the spec talks about. paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 4:03 PM To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet area router configuration Well, the procedure in RSX is totally different anyway, so that's no help. RSX have a totally separate task to handle node name stuff. And NCP is only used for the volatile database. Johnny Steve Davidson wrote: You need to use the "with purge" option for this to happen - at least in VMS anyway. -Steve -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 15:21 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet area router configuration Actually, I'm not entirely sure (I don't use VMS much nowadays), but I think it might remove all previous definitions before doing the copy. But that is easy to test. Just add a definition for some odd node that don't exist, and then do a copy. Johnny Ian McLaughlin wrote: Does a COPY KNOWN NODES FROM xxx remove nodes in your local database that aren't listed any more? It's fairly easy to run a COPY KNOWN NODES command once in a while. I guess the only piece missing is an automated way for MIM to get updates from everyone else. Ian. On 2009-12-03, at 12:10 PM, Sampsa Laine wrote: The only (and this is a very minor) benefit that I can see in a distributed naming system is that this way each owner of say an area could update the name database for his network and have it automagically propagate, rather than a centralised system we have right now which requires your time to keep up to date. But it's not really that big a benefit to warrant the effort - just automate the periodic copying of the database from MIM would be my suggestion as well... Sampsa On 3 Dec 2009, at 20:07, Johnny Billquist wrote: Sridhar Ayengar wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: Node list don't even get transmitted within the same area. Node names are local to each machine, and it is perfectly valid to have different names for the same node number on different machines (although perhaps confusing). How hard would it be to write software as equivalent to DNS? Not necessarily for general-purpose use, but just for HECnet? For what? Just copying the nodename database between machines? The software can already do that, so it would just be a question of automating it a bit. If you'd like to get a name lookup done from some central place at each nodename lookup would be almost impossible. You'd need the source code for DECnet, and the ability to recompile it for that to be possible. Not likely, I'm afraid. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se <mailto:bqt at softjar.se> || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol --- Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here: http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi- bin/learn.pl?messageid=E4AFF6EEE04711 DE98D9899E93ED0201 -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

15 years, 6 months

DECnet area router configuration

by bqt＠softjar.se

Well, the procedure in RSX is totally different anyway, so that's no help. RSX have a totally separate task to handle node name stuff. And NCP is only used for the volatile database. Johnny Steve Davidson wrote: You need to use the "with purge" option for this to happen - at least in VMS anyway. -Steve -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 15:21 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet area router configuration Actually, I'm not entirely sure (I don't use VMS much nowadays), but I think it might remove all previous definitions before doing the copy. But that is easy to test. Just add a definition for some odd node that don't exist, and then do a copy. Johnny Ian McLaughlin wrote: Does a COPY KNOWN NODES FROM xxx remove nodes in your local database that aren't listed any more? It's fairly easy to run a COPY KNOWN NODES command once in a while. I guess the only piece missing is an automated way for MIM to get updates from everyone else. Ian. On 2009-12-03, at 12:10 PM, Sampsa Laine wrote: The only (and this is a very minor) benefit that I can see in a distributed naming system is that this way each owner of say an area could update the name database for his network and have it automagically propagate, rather than a centralised system we have right now which requires your time to keep up to date. But it's not really that big a benefit to warrant the effort - just automate the periodic copying of the database from MIM would be my suggestion as well... Sampsa On 3 Dec 2009, at 20:07, Johnny Billquist wrote: Sridhar Ayengar wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: Node list don't even get transmitted within the same area. Node names are local to each machine, and it is perfectly valid to have different names for the same node number on different machines (although perhaps confusing). How hard would it be to write software as equivalent to DNS? Not necessarily for general-purpose use, but just for HECnet? For what? Just copying the nodename database between machines? The software can already do that, so it would just be a question of automating it a bit. If you'd like to get a name lookup done from some central place at each nodename lookup would be almost impossible. You'd need the source code for DECnet, and the ability to recompile it for that to be possible. Not likely, I'm afraid. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se <mailto:bqt at softjar.se> || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol --- Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here: http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=E4AFF6EEE04711 DE98D9899E93ED0201 -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

15 years, 6 months

DECnet area router configuration

by gerry77＠mail.com

On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 12:14:32 -0800, you wrote: Does a COPY KNOWN NODES FROM xxx remove nodes in your local database that aren't listed any more? Just add WITH PURGE at the end! :-) G.

15 years, 6 months

DECnet area router configuration

by bqt＠softjar.se

Actually, I'm not entirely sure (I don't use VMS much nowadays), but I think it might remove all previous definitions before doing the copy. But that is easy to test. Just add a definition for some odd node that don't exist, and then do a copy. Johnny Ian McLaughlin wrote: Does a COPY KNOWN NODES FROM xxx remove nodes in your local database that aren't listed any more? It's fairly easy to run a COPY KNOWN NODES command once in a while. I guess the only piece missing is an automated way for MIM to get updates from everyone else. Ian. On 2009-12-03, at 12:10 PM, Sampsa Laine wrote: The only (and this is a very minor) benefit that I can see in a distributed naming system is that this way each owner of say an area could update the name database for his network and have it automagically propagate, rather than a centralised system we have right now which requires your time to keep up to date. But it's not really that big a benefit to warrant the effort - just automate the periodic copying of the database from MIM would be my suggestion as well... Sampsa On 3 Dec 2009, at 20:07, Johnny Billquist wrote: Sridhar Ayengar wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: Node list don't even get transmitted within the same area. Node names are local to each machine, and it is perfectly valid to have different names for the same node number on different machines (although perhaps confusing). How hard would it be to write software as equivalent to DNS? Not necessarily for general-purpose use, but just for HECnet? For what? Just copying the nodename database between machines? The software can already do that, so it would just be a question of automating it a bit. If you'd like to get a name lookup done from some central place at each nodename lookup would be almost impossible. You'd need the source code for DECnet, and the ability to recompile it for that to be possible. Not likely, I'm afraid. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se <mailto:bqt at softjar.se> || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol --- Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here: http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=E4AFF6EEE04711DE9… -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

15 years, 6 months

DECnet area router configuration

by jeep＠scshome.net

You need to use the "with purge" option for this to happen - at least in VMS anyway. -Steve -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 15:21 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet area router configuration Actually, I'm not entirely sure (I don't use VMS much nowadays), but I think it might remove all previous definitions before doing the copy. But that is easy to test. Just add a definition for some odd node that don't exist, and then do a copy. Johnny Ian McLaughlin wrote: Does a COPY KNOWN NODES FROM xxx remove nodes in your local database that aren't listed any more? It's fairly easy to run a COPY KNOWN NODES command once in a while. I guess the only piece missing is an automated way for MIM to get updates from everyone else. Ian. On 2009-12-03, at 12:10 PM, Sampsa Laine wrote: The only (and this is a very minor) benefit that I can see in a distributed naming system is that this way each owner of say an area could update the name database for his network and have it automagically propagate, rather than a centralised system we have right now which requires your time to keep up to date. But it's not really that big a benefit to warrant the effort - just automate the periodic copying of the database from MIM would be my suggestion as well... Sampsa On 3 Dec 2009, at 20:07, Johnny Billquist wrote: Sridhar Ayengar wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: Node list don't even get transmitted within the same area. Node names are local to each machine, and it is perfectly valid to have different names for the same node number on different machines (although perhaps confusing). How hard would it be to write software as equivalent to DNS? Not necessarily for general-purpose use, but just for HECnet? For what? Just copying the nodename database between machines? The software can already do that, so it would just be a question of automating it a bit. If you'd like to get a name lookup done from some central place at each nodename lookup would be almost impossible. You'd need the source code for DECnet, and the ability to recompile it for that to be possible. Not likely, I'm afraid. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se <mailto:bqt at softjar.se> || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol --- Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here: http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=E4AFF6EEE04711 DE98D9899E93ED0201 -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

15 years, 6 months

DECnet area router configuration

by bqt＠softjar.se

Oh, no doubt it would be nice to have a distributed name service, but DECnet phase IV simply don't have it. And adding it means going into the DECnet code, which I suspect, most people don't have. So it basically can't be done. Note that the API (atleast in RSX, but I'm pretty sure it's true for other systems as well) actuall use node names, and not node numbers. So it's not like you could add another layer at the application program, that would make a query, and then use that information for the calls that build the connection block. The name translation to a node number all happens internally in the DECnet code. Johnny Sampsa Laine wrote: The only (and this is a very minor) benefit that I can see in a distributed naming system is that this way each owner of say an area could update the name database for his network and have it automagically propagate, rather than a centralised system we have right now which requires your time to keep up to date. But it's not really that big a benefit to warrant the effort - just automate the periodic copying of the database from MIM would be my suggestion as well... Sampsa On 3 Dec 2009, at 20:07, Johnny Billquist wrote: Sridhar Ayengar wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: Node list don't even get transmitted within the same area. Node names are local to each machine, and it is perfectly valid to have different names for the same node number on different machines (although perhaps confusing). How hard would it be to write software as equivalent to DNS? Not necessarily for general-purpose use, but just for HECnet? For what? Just copying the nodename database between machines? The software can already do that, so it would just be a question of automating it a bit. If you'd like to get a name lookup done from some central place at each nodename lookup would be almost impossible. You'd need the source code for DECnet, and the ability to recompile it for that to be possible. Not likely, I'm afraid. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

15 years, 6 months

DECnet area router configuration

by jeep＠scshome.net

A simple batch job will take care of this. Include in the batch job a "resubmit" so that you do not have to remember to run the procedure in the future. You might do it monthly or maybe even weekly. The other direction is a bit more work, but certainly possible. At this point Johnny has to ensure that no one creates a namespace collision by using the same node name twice. -Steve From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Ian McLaughlin Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 15:15 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet area router configuration Does a COPY KNOWN NODES FROM xxx remove nodes in your local database that aren't listed any more? It's fairly easy to run a COPY KNOWN NODES command once in a while. I guess the only piece missing is an automated way for MIM to get updates from everyone else. Ian. On 2009-12-03, at 12:10 PM, Sampsa Laine wrote: The only (and this is a very minor) benefit that I can see in a distributed naming system is that this way each owner of say an area could update the name database for his network and have it automagically propagate, rather than a centralised system we have right now which requires your time to keep up to date. But it's not really that big a benefit to warrant the effort - just automate the periodic copying of the database from MIM would be my suggestion as well... Sampsa On 3 Dec 2009, at 20:07, Johnny Billquist wrote: Sridhar Ayengar wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: Node list don't even get transmitted within the same area. Node names are local to each machine, and it is perfectly valid to have different names for the same node number on different machines (although perhaps confusing). How hard would it be to write software as equivalent to DNS? Not necessarily for general-purpose use, but just for HECnet? For what? Just copying the nodename database between machines? The software can already do that, so it would just be a question of automating it a bit. If you'd like to get a name lookup done from some central place at each nodename lookup would be almost impossible. You'd need the source code for DECnet, and the ability to recompile it for that to be possible. Not likely, I'm afraid. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol --- Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here: http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=E4AFF6EEE04711DE9…

15 years, 6 months

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