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3B1s and "old school" UNIX, was Re: [HECnet] US Seller with some interesting stuff

by phiber＠phiber.com

I used to use 3B1 and 7300 systems quite a bit. There was a CUI/GUI system called MGR, and they served quite well as UUCP mail-enabled workstations. Motorola 68k based. However, everything from the 3B2 on up was based on the Western Electric 32000-series processors. The Regional Bell's original Operations and Support Systems were largely PDP-11/45 and PDP-11/70 minis. These were transitioned for the most part to AT&T 3B20S ("Simplex" processor) servers towards the late 80's, the internal OSS applications these machines ran being designed by Bellcore. The RT version you're referring to is the AT&T 3B20D ("Duplex processor), which served as the processing core of the AT&T 5ESS (Electronic Switching System), at one time one of the two most powerful digital switching systems in the telephony world. The original real-time Unix developed for this platform (by AT&T) was called DMERT, for Duplex Multi Environment Real Time. This ultimately evolved into the 5E-2000 switch, with the OS evolving into AT&T UNIX RTR (Real Time Reliable). Not DECnet capable. The standard hard-wired networking method was AT&T Datakit VCS (Virtual Circuit System). Telenet X.25 hardware was also a common networking interface. By the way, I'm also from Queens. -Mark On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 7:19 AM, Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com> wrote: On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 9:20 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: On 11/27/2012 10:25 PM, Boyanich, Alastair wrote: Wasn't there some bitsliced cpu variants ? Of the 7300/3B1? No, not that I'm aware of. They're call 68010-based. I know there was the AT&T UNIX PC which was a 68010 + custom external MMU, but there was also a proprietry cpu version I ran into the trap of in a past life. The "UNIX PC" is the 7300, which is nearly identical to the 3B1. The 3B1 has a slightly larger top cover to accommodate a full-height hard drive, while the 7300 will only hold a half-height drive. They are otherwise identical, using 68010s. I'd sure like to know more about the "proprietary cpu" version you're talking about. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA Hello! He's thinking of the WE designed processors that were used in the later units. They were not bit slice but were fabricated using the normal methods. Not surprisingly enough the devices could not even be sold separately. They were ran an appropriately written release of UNIX as native. One of the first applications for them and the later models was in running the first and second generation Electronic Switching Services otherwise known as exchanges. There's a whole article online someplace on the RT extensions that needed to be written out and added to UNIX for that application. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

12 years, 11 months

KLH10 on Raspberri Pi / Nodelist update

by jg＠jordi.guillaumes.name

Sure! The ZIP contains the compiled binaries and the setup files I use. If you drop the PANDA distribution RH.RP07.0 in the same directory you should be fine. Just follow the instructions in the PANDA docs to set up TOPS-20 networking and you will have IP connectivity. If you want DECNET you will have to uncomment a line in SYSTEM:7-1-CONFIG.CMD (near the end), add the DECNET address to the "NODE" line (it should read NODE NODNAM XX.XX). Add (or uncomment) these lines to SYSTEM:SYSTEM.CMD: NCP SET CIRCUIT NI-0-0 SERVICE ENABLED NCP SET CIRCUIT NI-0-0 STATE ON With all of this you should have both IP and DECNET running... El 03/12/2012, a les 10:25, sampsa at mac.com va escriure: Jordi, Can I get a copy of that setup? I've got a Pi sitting here doing nothing, a TOPS-20 machine sounds awesome. Sampsa On 3 Dec 2012, at 11:24, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons <jg at jordi.guillaumes.name> wrote: Hello, Please add to the HECnet nodelist: 7.79 BITXT0 TOPS-20(PANDA) - KLH10 - Raspbery Pi I am running this simulator in the same Pi which currently holds 5 more VMs. I will see if it keeps stable, and if it does I will run it permanently. Issues to solve - KLH10 does not idle in the Pi. I'll check the idler device code to see if I can guess what is happening. - I tried to give KLH10 its own bridge device, plugged into the rest of my network via VDE switches and plugs, but it does not work. I have lots of IPBLP bugchecks and IP networking is unusable (weird enough, DECNET and LAT seem to work). It works fine if I use the main host interface in non-exclusive mode (but then I don't get LAT). - KLH10 frontend can't load *.EXE files. - TOPS-10 does not run well. I used a x86 KLH to dump the load code in SAV format and then I can boot TOPS-10, but it hungs after a while. On the other hand, I'm thinking about building a blinkenlights device using the GPIO pins of the Rasp-pi basing it on the actual parallel port blinkenlights panel driven by the "lites" device... :) It could be another nice hobby project... Jordi Guillaumes i Pons jg at jordi.guillaumes.name HECnet: BITXOV::JGUILLAUMES Jordi Guillaumes i Pons jg at jordi.guillaumes.name HECnet: BITXOV::JGUILLAUMES

12 years, 11 months

KLH10 on Raspberri Pi / Nodelist update

by sampsa＠mac.com

Jordi, Can I get a copy of that setup? I've got a Pi sitting here doing nothing, a TOPS-20 machine sounds awesome. Sampsa On 3 Dec 2012, at 11:24, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons <jg at jordi.guillaumes.name> wrote: Hello, Please add to the HECnet nodelist: 7.79 BITXT0 TOPS-20(PANDA) - KLH10 - Raspbery Pi I am running this simulator in the same Pi which currently holds 5 more VMs. I will see if it keeps stable, and if it does I will run it permanently. Issues to solve - KLH10 does not idle in the Pi. I'll check the idler device code to see if I can guess what is happening. - I tried to give KLH10 its own bridge device, plugged into the rest of my network via VDE switches and plugs, but it does not work. I have lots of IPBLP bugchecks and IP networking is unusable (weird enough, DECNET and LAT seem to work). It works fine if I use the main host interface in non-exclusive mode (but then I don't get LAT). - KLH10 frontend can't load *.EXE files. - TOPS-10 does not run well. I used a x86 KLH to dump the load code in SAV format and then I can boot TOPS-10, but it hungs after a while. On the other hand, I'm thinking about building a blinkenlights device using the GPIO pins of the Rasp-pi basing it on the actual parallel port blinkenlights panel driven by the "lites" device... :) It could be another nice hobby project... Jordi Guillaumes i Pons jg at jordi.guillaumes.name HECnet: BITXOV::JGUILLAUMES

12 years, 11 months

KLH10 on Raspberri Pi / Nodelist update

by jg＠jordi.guillaumes.name

Hello, Please add to the HECnet nodelist: 7.79 BITXT0 TOPS-20(PANDA) - KLH10 - Raspbery Pi I am running this simulator in the same Pi which currently holds 5 more VMs. I will see if it keeps stable, and if it does I will run it permanently. Issues to solve - KLH10 does not idle in the Pi. I'll check the idler device code to see if I can guess what is happening. - I tried to give KLH10 its own bridge device, plugged into the rest of my network via VDE switches and plugs, but it does not work. I have lots of IPBLP bugchecks and IP networking is unusable (weird enough, DECNET and LAT seem to work). It works fine if I use the main host interface in non-exclusive mode (but then I don't get LAT). - KLH10 frontend can't load *.EXE files. - TOPS-10 does not run well. I used a x86 KLH to dump the load code in SAV format and then I can boot TOPS-10, but it hungs after a while. On the other hand, I'm thinking about building a blinkenlights device using the GPIO pins of the Rasp-pi basing it on the actual parallel port blinkenlights panel driven by the "lites" device... :) It could be another nice hobby project... Jordi Guillaumes i Pons jg at jordi.guillaumes.name HECnet: BITXOV::JGUILLAUMES

12 years, 11 months

Raspberry PI SIMH-VAX distro?

by sampsa＠mac.com

12 years, 11 months

Anyone running KLH10 in the Raspberry Pi?

by tim＠sneddon.id.au

Hi Jordi, Have you tried running the DEC-10 diagnostics? I'm not a -10 guy's as such, so I might be wrong here, but I think they are called the KLAD pack. Search for KLAD on http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/. It should be much easier to pin point which part of the microcode is causing the problems. Regards, Tim. Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia arc Jordi Guillaumes i Pons <jg at jordi.guillaumes.name> wrote: El 28/11/2012, a les 22:48, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons <jg at jordi.guillaumes.name> va escriure: Al 28/11/12 22:47, En/na Paul_Koning at Dell.com ha escrit: Is Pi big endian? Does KLH10 assume little endian? Pi is little endian. And, to add some weirdness to this, I have just completed a TOPS-20 boot using the very same binaries... What I have found so far: - The ARM compile of KLH10 does not handle correctly the load of images in DEC-PEXE format. If the simulator is compiled without optimizations (i.e., -O0 in Makefile) then it does not spit any error message when it tries to load KLBOOT.EXE but it doesn't work either. For some reason it does not set up the initial address (but probably the problem is beyond that). I have been able to dump from a KLH10 running in a amd64 linux to a *.sav file and it seems to work... but then it does not recognize the TOPS-10 structures. I will work on both the LOAD problem and the disk problem a little bit. - TOPS-20 (PANDA) does boot, but the networking code does some weird things. Basically, lots of "***BUGCHK IPIBLP*** IPNI input buffer list problem" messages whenever I try to do something with IP networking. I have googled for that bugcheck, and it is related to the system being able to get IP buffers when it needs them. It could be a race condition, or some weird thing related to default word sizes. I'll keep trying... :) Jordi Guillaumes i Pons jg at jordi.guillaumes.name HECnet: BITXOV::JGUILLAUMES

12 years, 11 months

Anyone running KLH10 in the Raspberry Pi?

by jg＠jordi.guillaumes.name

El 28/11/2012, a les 22:48, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons <jg at jordi.guillaumes.name> va escriure: Al 28/11/12 22:47, En/na Paul_Koning at Dell.com ha escrit: Is Pi big endian? Does KLH10 assume little endian? Pi is little endian. And, to add some weirdness to this, I have just completed a TOPS-20 boot using the very same binaries... What I have found so far: - The ARM compile of KLH10 does not handle correctly the load of images in DEC-PEXE format. If the simulator is compiled without optimizations (i.e., -O0 in Makefile) then it does not spit any error message when it tries to load KLBOOT.EXE but it doesn't work either. For some reason it does not set up the initial address (but probably the problem is beyond that). I have been able to dump from a KLH10 running in a amd64 linux to a *.sav file and it seems to work... but then it does not recognize the TOPS-10 structures. I will work on both the LOAD problem and the disk problem a little bit. - TOPS-20 (PANDA) does boot, but the networking code does some weird things. Basically, lots of "***BUGCHK IPIBLP*** IPNI input buffer list problem" messages whenever I try to do something with IP networking. I have googled for that bugcheck, and it is related to the system being able to get IP buffers when it needs them. It could be a race condition, or some weird thing related to default word sizes. I'll keep trying... :) Jordi Guillaumes i Pons jg at jordi.guillaumes.name HECnet: BITXOV::JGUILLAUMES

12 years, 11 months

Largest PATA drive that a DS10 can use?

by Alastair.Boyanich＠au.fujitsu.com

Yep. 40 vs 48bit addressing. Need it on the controller. Your right. Al. -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Marc Chametzky Sent: Friday, 30 November 2012 4:44 AM To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Cc: sampsa at mac.com Subject: Re: [HECnet] Largest PATA drive that a DS10 can use? So it's basically maxed out as far as IDE goes? Isn't there a 137 GB limit to older IDE controllers? I don't remember much about the various IDE restrictions, but that number pops out in my head and it's likely that the older DS10 might not have the necessary support for larger drives. --Marc

12 years, 11 months

Largest PATA drive that a DS10 can use?

by Alastair.Boyanich＠au.fujitsu.com

I've got a pair of u320 300gb SCA's on a converters in a TS10. Works fine thus far and I've filled and tested it. Don't know about the PATA .. it's stinky ALI afair. These: http://www.sillworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=124&products_id=142256 Al. -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of sampsa at mac.com Sent: Friday, 30 November 2012 4:26 AM To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: [HECnet] Largest PATA drive that a DS10 can use? Gentlemen, I've currently got 3 x 127 GB PATA drives on CHIMPY - what is the largest drive this machine (DS10) will be capable of using? Sampsa

12 years, 11 months

Largest PATA drive that a DS10 can use?

by clemc＠ccc.com

DS10 and the Alpha/PC family for sure but IIRC, most, if not all them. The original satellite DB stunt was done by folks in our team that were on site at MSFT. They did the work with SQLserver on a Turbolaser - so at least that had to work somehow. At the time, MSFT was trying to show that it could scale up to big systems. I have no idea if DEC ever sold any of these or what the NT/Alpha SPD officially stated. On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: On 29 Nov 2012, at 16:20, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote: Sorry, I know longer have an Alpha so I can not try this myself. But I'll be glad to answer any question I can about it. Frankly I've forgotten if it was 28 or 48 bits - but check the FreeBSD/Alpha sources on FreeBSD.org. The DS10 was one of the systems that it supported and it should be reasonable easy to figure out from the driver. Another thought is look at Supnik's simh sources, when he might have it in there. As you say the support chipset is fairly late Si so their a high probability that it will work. If it does, I would expect that a IDE to XXX converter will work also so you could put current manufactured disks into it. A little known fact about the Alphas. DEC (and Sun for that matter) both used a triple interface Qlogic controller (I've forgotten the model number - but both companies used but with slightly different roms. That was the default controller for the DEC written OSs. But because of NT, DEC had to support the Adaptec family also and any DS10 or equiv that shipped with NT on it had an Adaptec 2940 controller not a Qlogic in it. The boot roms will work fine if you put one into it. In fact when we did the FreeBSD port, we started with Adaptec controller because at the time *BSD did not have a Qlogic driver. Speaking of NT on Alpha, does HECnet have any Alphas running NT? If not, which alphas did NT support? I might try to bring up NT/alpha in a VM. Furthuremore, it's not in any SPD that I know of, but Tru64 will recognize and boot from an Adaptec controller -- the DS10 in my office MRO did just that. IIRC: VMS will work with an Adaptec but can not boot off it. On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: On 11/29/2012 12:37 PM, Oleg Safiullin wrote: >> I've currently got 3 x 127 GB PATA drives on CHIMPY - what is the >> largest drive this machine (DS10) will be capable of using? > > "Compaq AlphaServer DS10 Systems, Technical Summary": > > Page 7: > --- > Disks supported are 20 and 40 GB IDE disks and 18.2 and 36.4 > GB UltraSCSI disks. In addition, a 72.8 GB universal wide > Ultra3 SCSI disk is supported with the front access storage > cage. > > Page 12 > --- > System storage 108 GB SCSI or 120 GB IDE with internal storage cage or > 218 GB SCSI with front access storage cage > > -- > I'm using two IDE disks: 80Gb and 120Gb. Uhh..."supported" and "will work" are often two very different things in DECland. I wouldn't consider a documentation quote very authoritative here at all. That said, the DS10 is a fairly late-model Alpha, introduced in 1999. I'd expect it to at least support 28-bit LBA, topping out at ~137GB, but it may support 48-bit LBA (BIG). I don't recall ever having used a drive larger than 120GB on a DS10. Of course for SCSI, the real limit may be much higher. There are lots of ways to get big storage on a PCI-based Alpha. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

12 years, 11 months

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