On 05/04/2013 17:36, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Apr 5, 2013, at 12:31 PM, Bob Armstrong wrote:
No one remembers that DEC ever did an Algol for the Vax.
Yeah, I don t think DEC did either. I was hoping that there was a third party implementation, or maybe one in DECUS. After all, there s a Modula2 compiler that had nothing to do with DEC.
I suspect Google is your friend.
Thanks for mentioning the Algol68RS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOL_68RS
There s a SourceForge project (link in the Wikipedia article) for a translator that converts Algol68RS to C.
Bob
There is also a full Algol68 compiler called algol68g http://jmvdveer.home.xs4all.nl/algol.html-- but that one is targeted to Intel CPUs. I suppose you could write a new back end...
paul
Now that *is* an interesting question, given my recent journey through some languages and simulators such as the Elliot 900 series and the English Electric KDF9 - the original host for the Whetstone Algol compiler (the KDF9 has a very interesting architecture - definitely worth a read).
There is also 'Awe' which is documented here - http://www.jampan.co.nz/~glyn/ - might be worth a look.
As always it's probably going to be a case of finding a 'lowest common denominator' implementation if you want 'native'.
Alternatively there is Terry Froggart's Elliot 900 simulator I've just got compiled up on VAX and Alpha which is implemented in Ada. It's pretty unfriendly user-wise but in theory you could load an Algol compiler tape and get it to run the resulting code.
Regards, Mark.
On Apr 5, 2013, at 12:31 PM, Bob Armstrong wrote:
No one remembers that DEC ever did an Algol for the Vax.
Yeah, I don t think DEC did either. I was hoping that there was a third party implementation, or maybe one in DECUS. After all, there s a Modula2 compiler that had nothing to do with DEC.
I suspect Google is your friend.
Thanks for mentioning the Algol68RS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOL_68RS
There s a SourceForge project (link in the Wikipedia article) for a translator that converts Algol68RS to C.
Bob
There is also a full Algol68 compiler called algol68g http://jmvdveer.home.xs4all.nl/algol.html-- but that one is targeted to Intel CPUs. I suppose you could write a new back end...
paul
>No one remembers that DEC ever did an Algol for the Vax.
Yeah, I don t think DEC did either. I was hoping that there was a third party implementation, or maybe one in DECUS. After all, there s a Modula2 compiler that had nothing to do with DEC.
> I suspect Google is your friend.
Thanks for mentioning the Algol68RS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOL_68RS
There s a SourceForge project (link in the Wikipedia article) for a translator that converts Algol68RS to C.
Bob
>Coral66 was the name. I have a manual for it.
I have to admit that I d never heard of Coral before, but I did some reading and although it looks like Algol, I suspect that it s not close enough to be useful. Sounds like Coral was intended for embedded systems and real time use and, in besides other syntactic differences, it lacks any kind of standard I/O library.
FWIW, the Wikipedia article has a link to the source for a Coral compiler if anybody is interested. It s written in BCPL, so good luck :-)
Bob
From: "Bob Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com>
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Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 20:57:11 -0700
To: <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
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Subject: [HECnet] Algol compiler for VAX/VMS?
Is there an Algol (probably the Algol68 dialect, but I m flexible) for VAX/VMS?
Thanks,
Bob
I just checked with a number of the old Tech Language guys. No one remembers that DEC ever did an Algol for the Vax.
But the Brits did a "portable" system called Algol68RS at firm called RSRE and Oxford and Cambridge. It originally targeted the ICL boxes, but at some point was made to generate VAX/VMS code and was by a firm called SPL in the early mid 1980s. I suspect Google is your friend.
BTW: some one has a portable compiler for the Algol-W dialect called AWE that is written in C and is supposed to be portable to UNIX boxes. I never tried it.
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:57 PM, Bob Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
Is there an Algol (probably the Algol68 dialect, but I m flexible) for VAX/VMS?
Thanks,
Bob
I was working in Software Services (Maynard, MA) in the summer of 1980.
VAXWRK:: (VMS) was connected to ASTRIX:: (RSX) via DMC-11. ASTRIX:: was
charged with routing out of the building (PK2) using another DMC-11. I
do remember it was a rather bumpy road for a while but eventually they
got it right. SET HOST worked well enough for me to connect to the
other remote sites in MA and NH that I only had to travel once a week.
Otherwise I would have been travelling much more often.
-Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On
Behalf Of Paul_Koning at Dell.com
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 5:08 PM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 1.50
On Apr 4, 2013, at 4:59 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On 04/04/2013 04:45 PM, hvlems wrote:
No ethernet in '79, no phase IV. So a DU11?
Hmmmm. Does SIMH emulate that?
It doesn't look like it does. And I don't know that VMS ever supported
that device, anyway. RSX did, but various other systems tended to stay
away from it because of the high software overhead. I do know that VMS
supports DMC-11 (or DMR-11, essentially the same at the driver level),
and there is support for that in the in-development release of SIMH.
paul
On 04/05/2013 09:54 AM, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
A DMC-11 is essentially a KMC-11 with programming fixed in ROM, rather
than dowloadable in RAM, plus a line card. The KMC-11 processor is a
custom engine, its instruction set looks somewhat like microcode. No
connection to any Intel chips, that couldn't possibly have come within a
mile of the performance requirements. Come to think of it, the first use
of a 808x series chip in DEC products I can think of is the head servo
control processor in the RA80. There may have been 8031s in some other
spots, I no longer remember where I saw those.
The RA80 came out in 1981, I think.
The 8031 is a member of the 8051 family (it's an 8051 without on-chip
program ROM), which was introduced in 1980.
The earliest use of an Intel processor in a DEC machine that I'm aware of
is the KY11-LB console control board in a PDP-11/34, which was introduced in
1976. That board uses an 8008.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 9:54 AM, <Paul_Koning at dell.com> wrote:
On Apr 4, 2013, at 6:44 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
...
My 1976 Peripherals Handbook has a description of the DMC-11 in it.
Best version of that book ever ;_0
A DMC-11 is essentially a KMC-11 with programming fixed in ROM, rather than dowloadable in RAM, plus a line card. The KMC-11 processor is a custom engine, its instruction set looks somewhat like microcode.
Right. Now it's coming back.
No connection to any Intel chips, that couldn't possibly have come within a mile of the performance requirements. Come to think of it, the first use of a 808x series chip in DEC products I can think of is the head servo control processor in the RA80. There may have been 8031s in some other spots, I no longer remember where I saw those.
The 11/34 had an 8008-1 that ran the keypad console and could actually DMA on the Unibus (al beit very slowly).
...
Positive. It was RSTS V4A-12, which did not use an MMU and required only 28 kW of memory (24 kW for a minimal install). RSTS started requiring an MMU in version 5, the first version that was called RSTS/E (for "Extended" as in extended memory).
Cool.
Clem
On Apr 4, 2013, at 6:44 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
...
But that's for terminals up to 9600 baud. For networking, you'd use a DMC-11 unless your OS supported the cheaper devices and money was that tight -- that one goes back to about 1976 and delivers up to 1 Mb/s depending on model (up to 56 kB/s long haul, given suitable modems).
Hmm - are the DMC and DMR that old? I remember fighting the firmware in the them to allow high speed serial networking. They had a dedicated microprocessor on them (8080A or 8085 IIRC - but it may have been something custom). They were expensive, which why Berk-NET used 9600 baud serial lines, until we got 3COM & Interlan Ethernet cards at Berkeley in 1983.
My 1976 Peripherals Handbook has a description of the DMC-11 in it. And I also remember it was used in Typeset-11, which had a custom network implementation specific to it that included Phase III style routing back in 1978. (No relationship to DECnet at all either in architecture or implementation.)
A DMC-11 is essentially a KMC-11 with programming fixed in ROM, rather than dowloadable in RAM, plus a line card. The KMC-11 processor is a custom engine, its instruction set looks somewhat like microcode. No connection to any Intel chips, that couldn't possibly have come within a mile of the performance requirements. Come to think of it, the first use of a 808x series chip in DEC products I can think of is the head servo control processor in the RA80. There may have been 8031s in some other spots, I no longer remember where I saw those.
...
But I do remember our college main timesharing system, in 1973, a PDP-11/20 with 28 kW of memory, RSTS V4A, and 16 terminals on 16 separate KL11 or DL11 interfaces. Oh yes, and a mean time between crashes of about 1 day.
Are you sure it was a 11/20, not an 11/40? I did not think RSTS could run without the MMU. With 16 DL/KL11's even with an 11/40 the interrupt rate had to been wretched.
Positive. It was RSTS V4A-12, which did not use an MMU and required only 28 kW of memory (24 kW for a minimal install). RSTS started requiring an MMU in version 5, the first version that was called RSTS/E (for "Extended" as in extended memory).
And yes, a box full of single line serial cards. Most of them ran at 110 Baud driving ASR33s; one or two were talking to TI Silent 700 terminals (300 baud printing on thermal paper), and one was feeding a Beehive editing terminal, don't remember what speed, almost certainly no higher than 1200 Baud because it was about 1000 feet from the computer. All this on 20 mA current loop connections, no RS232 as far as I remember. (The Beehive was for the London Stage project, an amazingly complex project to digitize and index a large body of historical reference books, back when OCR didn't really exist yet. There's a neat book about it, "Travels in Computerland" by the project director prof. Ben Schneider.)
Also an RK05 for system disk, an RF11 swap disk, and some DECtapes for additional file storage in case you wanted to save more stuff than could fit on the "large disk" (i.e., the RK05).
Because of the reliability issues, we had a long battle with DEC to get it fixed. The actual root cause may have been interference from the nearby campus FM broadcast transmitter (3 kW around 90 MHz). But whatever it was, we never got a real fix for that; eventually DEC threw in the towel and delivered a "replacement part" -- an 11/45 with a pile of new peripherals and a RSTS/E kit. :-) That did the job.
paul
There was the Algol derivative used mainly by the British armed forces. Coral66 was the name. I have a manual for it.
From: "Bob Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 20:57:11 -0700
To: <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
ReplyTo: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: [HECnet] Algol compiler for VAX/VMS?
Is there an Algol (probably the Algol68 dialect, but I m flexible) for VAX/VMS?
Thanks,
Bob
