From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
[...] worked for a guy [...]
[...] of one of the designers of [...]
There's MY name-dropping for the day.)
Um, I think you did it wrong! (no names :-)
John Wilson
D Bit
On Apr 8, 2013, at 5:42 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2013-04-08 23:26, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Apr 8, 2013, at 5:09 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
...
By the way, MOP, from an ethernet point of view, is neither LAT nor DECnet. MOP is its own protocols on ethernet. 0x6001 and 0x6002. But I believe they were defined as being a part of the DECnet suite anyway.
The MOP spec is one of the DECnet architecture specs. And in fact it relies on the DNA datalink layer and is controlled via the DNA management layer. Other than that, it's indeed separate -- doesn't use routing or NSP.
Paul, what do you mean by "relies on the DNA datalink layer"?
MOP either uses DDCMP, which is a point to point DNA datalink layer, or Ethernet (including the DEC-originated explicit packet length field) which is a multicast DNA datalink layer. Or FDDI, I suppose, which is another DNA datalink layer.
In the latter two cases it may not be all that obvious, because people tend to think of Ethernet and FDDI as international standards. And so they are -- but DNA adds more detail. The packet length field in DNA Ethernet protocols (MOP and routing) is something in the DNA Ethernet spec but not in the international standard.
paul
On 04/08/2013 08:28 PM, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> writes:
Guys, guys...*I* am the token name-dropper in this crowd, ok?
Dropping like token ring?
No, I did that this morning. ;)
-Dave
(For several years, 25 years ago, I worked for a guy who was both one of
the developers of OS/360, and the chairman of IEEE committee 802.3. And for
awhile, I dated the daughter of one of the designers of the PDP-11/34 CPU,
he's a friend of mine...I just picked up a third vanload of VAXen, plus a
pair of VT78s, from him two weeks ago. There's MY name-dropping for the day.)
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> writes:
Guys, guys...*I* am the token name-dropper in this crowd, ok?
Dropping like token ring?
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Guys, guys...*I* am the token name-dropper in this crowd, ok?
-Dave
On 04/08/2013 08:19 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
google 3com unet Bruce Borden Greg shaw bob metcalfe
and you should get a hit for 1979-80 time frame
On Apr 8, 2013, at 8:09 PM, "Cory Smelosky" <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
On Mon, 8 Apr 2013, Clem Cole wrote:
On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
The flag day for TCP/IP was 1 Jan 1983, so I wouldn't expect you were
running much TCP/IP before that point. (Yes, I know experiments and
development was going on, but the number of implementations were few, still
had issues, and was very much work still in progress
Johnny it was TCP/IP. Remember, I'm one of the implementors of the
original IP/TCP for the VMS (along with Stan Smith) in >>1979<<. I was
also 3Com first customer at the same time (another but related story).
Most people do not realize the first product 3Com sold was >>software<< -
UNET a TCP/IP implementation for UNIX/V7 (PDP11 and Vax) - we took deliver
on Dec >>32<< 1979 because 3Com had a funding thing with their VCs that
they would ship before the end of 1979.
I didn't knoq TCP/IP existed for UNIX/V7. How interesting! What interfaces did it support?
I would hardly call IP/TCP a work in progress. Yes, it was young, but it
was well defined. Most of the major sites had switched and the US Gov had
a spent a bunch to make sure it was implemented. We had it running on a
number of interesting and different systems at the time. If I had the time
and can actually read the tapes, at one time I >>had<< the bits on 9-track
for many of them in my basement (I still have the tapes - but who knows).
FYI: the original IP/TCP for 4.1BSD was not written at Berkeley, it was
written at BBN and used the MIT Chaos-Net hacks to slide in the 4.1BSD
kernel (by Rob Gerawitzs & Rob Walsh). Remember, BBN had the contract from
ARPA to develop the different IP/TCP implementations. In fact, the mbuf
code that Rob G created was because he needed a memory handler that was OS
kernel independent, so it could be stuffed into a number of a different
kernels. Eric Cooper was the grad student that put the "portable BBN
IP/TCP" into 4.1 at UCB to replace the BerkNet and Eric Schmidt (yes the
Google one) made the mailer talk to it. Berkeley had a contract to
support the base UNIX kernel for ARPA. So as part of that, wnj would
create "sockets" for 4.1A (as a response to the Accent/Mach "port" concept)
and then re-stuff the BBN code into his socket layer. Then he, Sam, et al
start to hack it. Van would take it up the hill to LBL and start to hack
further. Eventually 4.2BSD would be released as we know it as part of the
UCB ARPA contract and most sites picked up the code from that release not
the BBN release.
DEC all of these release along the way and Fred Canter, Armando Stettner,
and the whole "TIG" (telephone industries group) in Merrimack were doing
their thing for AT&T, the Universities and any UNIX licensee that wanted
it. TIG would begat the Ultrix team.
Not trying to come down on you, but "I was there" and very much "mixed up"
in it all.
As for when MOP was released for the UNIX flavors, I really can not
remember. It was all around the same time, but as I said, those bits in my
brain are stale and I was not part of any LAT/MOP etc (directly or
indirectly) so their is no real reason for me to remember some of the
specifics.
Clem
--
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
google 3com unet Bruce Borden Greg shaw bob metcalfe
and you should get a hit for 1979-80 time frame
On Apr 8, 2013, at 8:09 PM, "Cory Smelosky" <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
On Mon, 8 Apr 2013, Clem Cole wrote:
On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
The flag day for TCP/IP was 1 Jan 1983, so I wouldn't expect you were
running much TCP/IP before that point. (Yes, I know experiments and
development was going on, but the number of implementations were few, still
had issues, and was very much work still in progress
Johnny it was TCP/IP. Remember, I'm one of the implementors of the
original IP/TCP for the VMS (along with Stan Smith) in >>1979<<. I was
also 3Com first customer at the same time (another but related story).
Most people do not realize the first product 3Com sold was >>software<< -
UNET a TCP/IP implementation for UNIX/V7 (PDP11 and Vax) - we took deliver
on Dec >>32<< 1979 because 3Com had a funding thing with their VCs that
they would ship before the end of 1979.
I didn't knoq TCP/IP existed for UNIX/V7. How interesting! What interfaces did it support?
I would hardly call IP/TCP a work in progress. Yes, it was young, but it
was well defined. Most of the major sites had switched and the US Gov had
a spent a bunch to make sure it was implemented. We had it running on a
number of interesting and different systems at the time. If I had the time
and can actually read the tapes, at one time I >>had<< the bits on 9-track
for many of them in my basement (I still have the tapes - but who knows).
FYI: the original IP/TCP for 4.1BSD was not written at Berkeley, it was
written at BBN and used the MIT Chaos-Net hacks to slide in the 4.1BSD
kernel (by Rob Gerawitzs & Rob Walsh). Remember, BBN had the contract from
ARPA to develop the different IP/TCP implementations. In fact, the mbuf
code that Rob G created was because he needed a memory handler that was OS
kernel independent, so it could be stuffed into a number of a different
kernels. Eric Cooper was the grad student that put the "portable BBN
IP/TCP" into 4.1 at UCB to replace the BerkNet and Eric Schmidt (yes the
Google one) made the mailer talk to it. Berkeley had a contract to
support the base UNIX kernel for ARPA. So as part of that, wnj would
create "sockets" for 4.1A (as a response to the Accent/Mach "port" concept)
and then re-stuff the BBN code into his socket layer. Then he, Sam, et al
start to hack it. Van would take it up the hill to LBL and start to hack
further. Eventually 4.2BSD would be released as we know it as part of the
UCB ARPA contract and most sites picked up the code from that release not
the BBN release.
DEC all of these release along the way and Fred Canter, Armando Stettner,
and the whole "TIG" (telephone industries group) in Merrimack were doing
their thing for AT&T, the Universities and any UNIX licensee that wanted
it. TIG would begat the Ultrix team.
Not trying to come down on you, but "I was there" and very much "mixed up"
in it all.
As for when MOP was released for the UNIX flavors, I really can not
remember. It was all around the same time, but as I said, those bits in my
brain are stale and I was not part of any LAT/MOP etc (directly or
indirectly) so their is no real reason for me to remember some of the
specifics.
Clem
--
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On Mon, 8 Apr 2013, Clem Cole wrote:
On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
The flag day for TCP/IP was 1 Jan 1983, so I wouldn't expect you were
running much TCP/IP before that point. (Yes, I know experiments and
development was going on, but the number of implementations were few, still
had issues, and was very much work still in progress
Johnny it was TCP/IP. Remember, I'm one of the implementors of the
original IP/TCP for the VMS (along with Stan Smith) in >>1979<<. I was
also 3Com first customer at the same time (another but related story).
Most people do not realize the first product 3Com sold was >>software<< -
UNET a TCP/IP implementation for UNIX/V7 (PDP11 and Vax) - we took deliver
on Dec >>32<< 1979 because 3Com had a funding thing with their VCs that
they would ship before the end of 1979.
I didn't knoq TCP/IP existed for UNIX/V7. How interesting! What interfaces did it support?
I would hardly call IP/TCP a work in progress. Yes, it was young, but it
was well defined. Most of the major sites had switched and the US Gov had
a spent a bunch to make sure it was implemented. We had it running on a
number of interesting and different systems at the time. If I had the time
and can actually read the tapes, at one time I >>had<< the bits on 9-track
for many of them in my basement (I still have the tapes - but who knows).
FYI: the original IP/TCP for 4.1BSD was not written at Berkeley, it was
written at BBN and used the MIT Chaos-Net hacks to slide in the 4.1BSD
kernel (by Rob Gerawitzs & Rob Walsh). Remember, BBN had the contract from
ARPA to develop the different IP/TCP implementations. In fact, the mbuf
code that Rob G created was because he needed a memory handler that was OS
kernel independent, so it could be stuffed into a number of a different
kernels. Eric Cooper was the grad student that put the "portable BBN
IP/TCP" into 4.1 at UCB to replace the BerkNet and Eric Schmidt (yes the
Google one) made the mailer talk to it. Berkeley had a contract to
support the base UNIX kernel for ARPA. So as part of that, wnj would
create "sockets" for 4.1A (as a response to the Accent/Mach "port" concept)
and then re-stuff the BBN code into his socket layer. Then he, Sam, et al
start to hack it. Van would take it up the hill to LBL and start to hack
further. Eventually 4.2BSD would be released as we know it as part of the
UCB ARPA contract and most sites picked up the code from that release not
the BBN release.
DEC all of these release along the way and Fred Canter, Armando Stettner,
and the whole "TIG" (telephone industries group) in Merrimack were doing
their thing for AT&T, the Universities and any UNIX licensee that wanted
it. TIG would begat the Ultrix team.
Not trying to come down on you, but "I was there" and very much "mixed up"
in it all.
As for when MOP was released for the UNIX flavors, I really can not
remember. It was all around the same time, but as I said, those bits in my
brain are stale and I was not part of any LAT/MOP etc (directly or
indirectly) so their is no real reason for me to remember some of the
specifics.
Clem
--
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
oh absolutely. all the problems we have with the Internet have to do with things we did not think about at the time.
On Apr 8, 2013, at 5:42 PM, Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
The flag day for TCP/IP was 1 Jan 1983, so I wouldn't expect you were
running much TCP/IP before that point. (Yes, I know experiments and
development was going on, but the number of implementations were few, still
had issues, and was very much work still in progress
Johnny it was TCP/IP. Remember, I'm one of the implementors of the original
IP/TCP for the VMS (along with Stan Smith) in >>1979<<. I was also 3Com
first customer at the same time (another but related story). Most people
do not realize the first product 3Com sold was >>software<< - UNET a TCP/IP
implementation for UNIX/V7 (PDP11 and Vax) - we took deliver on Dec >>32<<
1979 because 3Com had a funding thing with their VCs that they would ship
before the end of 1979.
I would hardly call IP/TCP a work in progress. Yes, it was young, but it was
well defined. Most of the major sites had switched and the US Gov had a
spent a bunch to make sure it was implemented. We had it running on a
number of interesting and different systems at the time. If I had the time
and can actually read the tapes, at one time I >>had<< the bits on 9-track
for many of them in my basement (I still have the tapes - but who knows).
FYI: the original IP/TCP for 4.1BSD was not written at Berkeley, it was
written at BBN and used the MIT Chaos-Net hacks to slide in the 4.1BSD
kernel (by Rob Gerawitzs & Rob Walsh). Remember, BBN had the contract from
ARPA to develop the different IP/TCP implementations. In fact, the mbuf
code that Rob G created was because he needed a memory handler that was OS
kernel independent, so it could be stuffed into a number of a different
kernels. Eric Cooper was the grad student that put the "portable BBN
IP/TCP" into 4.1 at UCB to replace the BerkNet and Eric Schmidt (yes the
Google one) made the mailer talk to it. Berkeley had a contract to support
the base UNIX kernel for ARPA. So as part of that, wnj would create
"sockets" for 4.1A (as a response to the Accent/Mach "port" concept) and
then re-stuff the BBN code into his socket layer. Then he, Sam, et al start
to hack it. Van would take it up the hill to LBL and start to hack
further. Eventually 4.2BSD would be released as we know it as part of the
UCB ARPA contract and most sites picked up the code from that release not
the BBN release.
DEC all of these release along the way and Fred Canter, Armando Stettner,
and the whole "TIG" (telephone industries group) in Merrimack were doing
their thing for AT&T, the Universities and any UNIX licensee that wanted it.
TIG would begat the Ultrix team.
Not trying to come down on you, but "I was there" and very much "mixed up"
in it all.
As for when MOP was released for the UNIX flavors, I really can not
remember. It was all around the same time, but as I said, those bits in my
brain are stale and I was not part of any LAT/MOP etc (directly or
indirectly) so their is no real reason for me to remember some of the
specifics.
Clem
Hello!
Clem, I (not speaking for Johnny, but speaking for myself and four
cats. Also responsible for the perennial problem surrounding Dave.)
would never heap stuff on you. I actually applaud your efforts. As for
the stuff that still fastens the Internet together, it is indeed a BBN
solution. In fact in Cliff Stoll's book he mentions that bit of trivia
and also what to expect from them.
However he does complain as to how the routing of the Internet works.......
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On 2013-04-08 23:36, Clem Cole wrote:
On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se
<mailto:bqt at softjar.se>> wrote:
The flag day for TCP/IP was 1 Jan 1983, so I wouldn't expect you
were running much TCP/IP before that point. (Yes, I know experiments
and development was going on, but the number of implementations were
few, still had issues, and was very much work still in progress
Johnny it was TCP/IP. Remember, I'm one of the implementors of the
original IP/TCP for the VMS (along with Stan Smith) in >>1979<<. I was
also 3Com first customer at the same time (another but related story).
Most people do not realize the first product 3Com sold was >>software<<
- UNET a TCP/IP implementation for UNIX/V7 (PDP11 and Vax) - we took
deliver on Dec >>32<< 1979 because 3Com had a funding thing with their
VCs that they would ship before the end of 1979.
The annoying things here is that no information of this can be found. I'd be happy if you can help me with some references and pointers.
I would hardly call IP/TCP a work in progress. Yes, it was young, but it
was well defined. Most of the major sites had switched and the US Gov
had a spent a bunch to make sure it was implemented. We had it running
on a number of interesting and different systems at the time. If I had
the time and can actually read the tapes, at one time I >>had<< the bits
on 9-track for many of them in my basement (I still have the tapes - but
who knows).
Well defined? RFC 791, which *is* the definition of IP is dated September 1981.
The predecessor, RFC 760, which is slightly incompatible with 791, is from January 1980. (For example, ICMP didn't exist then, instead you had IP options that were used to indicate errors.)
What specifications did you use for a TCP/IP implementation that you had running in 1979? And I'd say that any such implementation would work very badly, if at all, with any TCP/IP based on RFC 791.
FYI: the original IP/TCP for 4.1BSD was not written at Berkeley, it was
written at BBN and used the MIT Chaos-Net hacks to slide in the 4.1BSD
kernel (by Rob Gerawitzs & Rob Walsh). Remember, BBN had the contract
from ARPA to develop the different IP/TCP implementations. In fact, the
mbuf code that Rob G created was because he needed a memory handler that
was OS kernel independent, so it could be stuffed into a number of a
different kernels. Eric Cooper was the grad student that put the
"portable BBN IP/TCP" into 4.1 at UCB to replace the BerkNet and Eric
Schmidt (yes the Google one) made the mailer talk to it. Berkeley had
a contract to support the base UNIX kernel for ARPA. So as part of
that, wnj would create "sockets" for 4.1A (as a response to the
Accent/Mach "port" concept) and then re-stuff the BBN code into his
socket layer. Then he, Sam, et al start to hack it. Van would take it
up the hill to LBL and start to hack further. Eventually 4.2BSD would
be released as we know it as part of the UCB ARPA contract and most
sites picked up the code from that release not the BBN release.
I assume you mean Rob Guruwitz. This TCP/IP implementation became "live" 18 Nov 1981, with a more general distribution planned for 1982.
(See RFC 801, page 18)
That RFC is also a good reference for the status of various TCP/IP implementation at the time (November 1981), and many implementations are still in development, and many based on each other.
DEC all of these release along the way and Fred Canter, Armando
Stettner, and the whole "TIG" (telephone industries group) in Merrimack
were doing their thing for AT&T, the Universities and any UNIX licensee
that wanted it. TIG would begat the Ultrix team.
Not trying to come down on you, but "I was there" and very much "mixed
up" in it all.
I know. You keep pointing that out. And I still can't reconcile your statements with all the published information that is around. (Nor can I find your name anywhere in those places I look.) So I'd like to find better sources of information than the RFCs, if you please could share them.
As for when MOP was released for the UNIX flavors, I really can not
remember. It was all around the same time, but as I said, those bits in
my brain are stale and I was not part of any LAT/MOP etc (directly or
indirectly) so their is no real reason for me to remember some of the
specifics.
Yeah, me neither. MOP on Ultrix is not something I can nail down with enough precision.
However, we can tell for sure that it wasn't before 1984, since LAT actually didn't come around until that year (just checked that one up, so the original question about LAT on VMS 3.5 is a "no" I would say, based on this. My guess is that it might have been introduced in VMS 3.7, but that is purely a guess on my part.)
Johnny
Clem
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
The flag day for TCP/IP was 1 Jan 1983, so I wouldn't expect you were
running much TCP/IP before that point. (Yes, I know experiments and
development was going on, but the number of implementations were few, still
had issues, and was very much work still in progress
Johnny it was TCP/IP. Remember, I'm one of the implementors of the original
IP/TCP for the VMS (along with Stan Smith) in >>1979<<. I was also 3Com
first customer at the same time (another but related story). Most people
do not realize the first product 3Com sold was >>software<< - UNET a TCP/IP
implementation for UNIX/V7 (PDP11 and Vax) - we took deliver on Dec >>32<<
1979 because 3Com had a funding thing with their VCs that they would ship
before the end of 1979.
I would hardly call IP/TCP a work in progress. Yes, it was young, but it was
well defined. Most of the major sites had switched and the US Gov had a
spent a bunch to make sure it was implemented. We had it running on a
number of interesting and different systems at the time. If I had the time
and can actually read the tapes, at one time I >>had<< the bits on 9-track
for many of them in my basement (I still have the tapes - but who knows).
FYI: the original IP/TCP for 4.1BSD was not written at Berkeley, it was
written at BBN and used the MIT Chaos-Net hacks to slide in the 4.1BSD
kernel (by Rob Gerawitzs & Rob Walsh). Remember, BBN had the contract from
ARPA to develop the different IP/TCP implementations. In fact, the mbuf
code that Rob G created was because he needed a memory handler that was OS
kernel independent, so it could be stuffed into a number of a different
kernels. Eric Cooper was the grad student that put the "portable BBN
IP/TCP" into 4.1 at UCB to replace the BerkNet and Eric Schmidt (yes the
Google one) made the mailer talk to it. Berkeley had a contract to support
the base UNIX kernel for ARPA. So as part of that, wnj would create
"sockets" for 4.1A (as a response to the Accent/Mach "port" concept) and
then re-stuff the BBN code into his socket layer. Then he, Sam, et al start
to hack it. Van would take it up the hill to LBL and start to hack
further. Eventually 4.2BSD would be released as we know it as part of the
UCB ARPA contract and most sites picked up the code from that release not
the BBN release.
DEC all of these release along the way and Fred Canter, Armando Stettner,
and the whole "TIG" (telephone industries group) in Merrimack were doing
their thing for AT&T, the Universities and any UNIX licensee that wanted it.
TIG would begat the Ultrix team.
Not trying to come down on you, but "I was there" and very much "mixed up"
in it all.
As for when MOP was released for the UNIX flavors, I really can not
remember. It was all around the same time, but as I said, those bits in my
brain are stale and I was not part of any LAT/MOP etc (directly or
indirectly) so their is no real reason for me to remember some of the
specifics.
Clem
Hello!
Clem, I (not speaking for Johnny, but speaking for myself and four
cats. Also responsible for the perennial problem surrounding Dave.)
would never heap stuff on you. I actually applaud your efforts. As for
the stuff that still fastens the Internet together, it is indeed a BBN
solution. In fact in Cliff Stoll's book he mentions that bit of trivia
and also what to expect from them.
However he does complain as to how the routing of the Internet works.......
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
