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Which DECnet interfaces support remote, unattended, booting?

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2013-05-17 19:05, Bob Armstrong wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: "A Trigger Instruction (remote console request to boot) can be executed if the local host system contains the appropriate BOOT ROM for loading the boot code from the DELQA module." Sounds like they're saying that the DELQA just does a BINIT and then it's up to the boot ROM to figure out what happens after that. Read through more stuff, and apart from the fact that the DELQA also provide boot code for the PDP-11 (albeit in a different way than the Unibus ones), it actually pulls the BDCOK, to it simulates a power fail. And then the host is supposed to request the DELQA to dump the boot code into memory, and then jump into it by itself. Johnny

12 years

Which DECnet interfaces support remote, unattended, booting?

by wilson＠dbit.com

From: "Bob Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com> You missed my point - the issue was not "where does the small program execute from", it was "where is the code for the boot program stored (permanently) before it gets DMAed into the host". [misunderstanding since resolved] Also when they say small they mean *small*! IIRC it just loads a few vectors, sets a variable or two, and then does a branch-self, so it's just a few words. The *actual* boot code comes from SECUNA.SYS/SECLUA.SYS (secondary bootstrap in T11/68K code) and TERUNA.SYS/TERLUA.SYS (tertiary boot in PDP-11 code). The DEQNA was such a mistake. Why DEC would break from eons of tradition and make the Q and U versions of something be not in the slightest compatible is beyond me. Apparently fitting on a dual-height card was more important. I think it does have a CPU (i8051?) but its ROM is mostly full of the PDP-11 boot/diag code (since the boot is way too big to fit in a typical PDP-11 boot PROM so all that does is suck the real boot out of the 8051). So they didn't have space for doing MOP in firmware. There's a *fantastic* writeup on how to call the QNA/LQA boot/diag PROM in the RSTS source code (I think it's basically the entire relevant part of some internal manual, pasted into a .REM block). To be clear: the UNA/LUA actually yanks AC LO L, which *causes* INIT L to be pulled but also makes the CPU jump through the vector that's just been reloaded. I agree that the purpose of all this must surely be to remotely revive crashed systems, which won't be useful with emulators if it's actually the emulator and/or host system that's crashed (but *will* work if the crash was in PDP-11 code). But it's too much fun not to do anyway! I had a blast getting it working in E11 even though I can't imagine one single person besides me has used it. But that's not the point! Also if the system was booted manually, then what it reboots automatically might not be the same, so you wave a magic wand and a computer in the other room will switch from RSTS to RSX, in an entirely PDP-11-y way (not like you just telneted into the most machine and told *it* to reboot the emulator). Or whatever. I would think the other emulators support Ethernet booting too, but if any of them don't, I'd be happy to contribute my reimplementation of the QNA/LQA boot/diag ROM code (with MACRO-11 source). John Wilson D Bit

12 years

Another sillyness. More information in the nodename database on MIM.

by form＠pdp-11.org.ru

Dave McGuire wrote: On 05/17/2013 04:32 AM, Oleg Safiullin wrote: I bet you wouldn't have trouble cooling a real PDP-11 in a Russian winter. ;) Some PDP-11's are smaller and cooler than PC's :) http://pdp-11.org.ru/~form/files/pics/1183/1183-d.jpg That's a great "hacking around" setup! Very nice! There're other pictures at http://pdp-11.org.ru/~form/files/pics/1183/ -- the history of my 11/83 :)

12 years

Another sillyness. More information in the nodename database on MIM.

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 05/17/2013 04:32 AM, Oleg Safiullin wrote: I bet you wouldn't have trouble cooling a real PDP-11 in a Russian winter. ;) Some PDP-11's are smaller and cooler than PC's :) http://pdp-11.org.ru/~form/files/pics/1183/1183-d.jpg That's a great "hacking around" setup! Very nice! http://pdp-11.org.ru/~form/files/pics/dell.jpg OH MY GOD!! I'm going to have nightmares about those. Are there collectors there that collect the Soviet clones? I have an UKNC, the soviet computer, small 11/03 clone with second CPU instead of device controllers and with graphics :) http://pdp-11.org.ru/~form/files/pics/uknc/NewKMDYK.jpg Those are such neat machines! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

12 years

Which DECnet interfaces support remote, unattended, booting?

by b4＠gewt.net

On Fri, 17 May 2013, Bob Armstrong wrote: John Wilson wrote: this is a ridiculous security risk so that's why MOP had a magic number Yep, even the DMR has a boot "password", which is just an 8 bit value set by dip switches on the board, that has to match up with the MOP message. They DMA a small program into memory Ah, I was wondering about that, because there aren't any separate boot ROMs on the DEUNA. I bet the "small program" is just part of the T11 code. And I'm assuming that this scheme didn't work on any UNIBUS VAXes - only PDPs. I'd assume so as well. On a semi-related note, wasn't it not possible to netboot a UNIBUS VAX with a DEUNA? I seem to recall that from the manual. It required an intermediate bootloader or something, right? Bob -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments

12 years

Which DECnet interfaces support remote, unattended, booting?

by b4＠gewt.net

On Fri, 17 May 2013, G. wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2013 06:49:40 -0700, you wrote: DECnet (NCP) has a TRIGGER command that sends a special MOP message to a remote machine, and that's supposed to force the machine to do a hard reset and the reboot, presumably via DECnet. It uses MOP, not DECnet. Although MOP is described among other DECnet standards and managed with NCP, it does not use DECnet protocols to do its thing. IIRC it does not even use NETDRIVER & Co. but its own NDDRIVER. :) The problem is that it doesn't seem like there are many PDP-11 or VAX communications interfaces that actually implement this. The DMR and DMC appear to, but as far as I can find those are the only ones. In particular there don't appear to be any QBUS interfaces that can do it. Have I missed any? Has anybody ever done this? What interface did you use? Years ago I made some experiments with CONNECT (and TRIGGER) and a DEC 3000 Alpha workstation. It worked (somewhat), but only if the host was waiting at the >>> prompt. If that was the case, it was possibile to connect to the SRM, type commands and receive responses. I do not remember if TRIGGER would start the boot process or if it did not work. I had the overall feeling that the DEC 3000 firmware code managing those functions was not very well tested and debugged as it locked the whole machine quite often... I wonder if I could do this on my AlphaServer ES40... I should probably read the manual. There is that out-of-band management interface so I doubt CONNECT and TRIGGER would be implemented. HTH, :) G. -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments

12 years

Which DECnet interfaces support remote, unattended, booting?

by bob＠jfcl.com

Johnny Billquist wrote: "A Trigger Instruction (remote console request to boot) can be executed if the local host system contains the appropriate BOOT ROM for loading the boot code from the DELQA module." Sounds like they're saying that the DELQA just does a BINIT and then it's up to the boot ROM to figure out what happens after that. Bob

12 years

Which DECnet interfaces support remote, unattended, booting?

by Paul_Koning＠Dell.com

On May 17, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Bob Armstrong wrote: Paul_Koning at Dell.com the one that requires hardware help -- is Boot.1 It occurs to me that there's a better way - several versions of the DLV11 (e.g. -E) could assert BHALT when a break was detected. You could do that on the async DECnet DDCMP line. Unfortunately I think that only gets you to console ODT and not an actual reboot. Now, if you took a soldering iron to the DLV11-E and hacked it ever so slightly so that break asserted BINIT instead, I think it'd actually work. Of course you'd need the host side to send a break - I don't imagine DECnet could do that. No, that's not a DECnet or MOP feature. It's not hard to do, of course, given support in the sending system's UART. paul

12 years

Which DECnet interfaces support remote, unattended, booting?

by bob＠jfcl.com

Paul_Koning at Dell.com the one that requires hardware help -- is Boot.1 It occurs to me that there's a better way - several versions of the DLV11 (e.g. -E) could assert BHALT when a break was detected. You could do that on the async DECnet DDCMP line. Unfortunately I think that only gets you to console ODT and not an actual reboot. Now, if you took a soldering iron to the DLV11-E and hacked it ever so slightly so that break asserted BINIT instead, I think it'd actually work. Of course you'd need the host side to send a break - I don't imagine DECnet could do that. Bob

12 years

Which DECnet interfaces support remote, unattended, booting?

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2013-05-17 18:51, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2013-05-17 18:18, Bob Armstrong wrote: It looks like the DELQA is the only possible option for remote triggering a QBUS 11, and even that one is uncertain. Skimming through the DELQA manual, it seems it should support MOP Remote console BOOT requests. To expand a little. The manual says: "A Trigger Instruction (remote console request to boot) can be executed if the local host system contains the appropriate BOOT ROM for loading the boot code from the DELQA module." Johnny

12 years

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