Actually the situation is somewhat more complex but is difficult to see
exactly as the OPR on the Pdp10 7.02 does not function, so NCP cannot be
used to define nodes and give status.
The phase-III thinks the following:
[DECnet network: local node SWBW08, 2 reachable nodes]
Name Number Line Cost Hops L.Links Delay
SWBW08 (58) local 0 0
(44) DMR-1-0 1023 31
The Tops20 4.1 thinks:
Local DECNET node: SWBX05
Accessible DECNET nodes are: SWBX04 SWBX05 and:
Status as of 3-May-2014 02:07:01
Line ID State Adjacent Node
KDP_0_0 On SWBX04
KDP_0_1 On
Function completed successfully
Node 44 is the Swbx04 with is connected to the phase III
So the phase-III thinks the Tops20 node is up, however the Tops20 node
thinks otherwise.
So somewhat more is functioning than directly meets the eye!
Regards,
Reindert
-----Original Message-----
From: simh-bounces at trailing-edge.com [mailto:simh-bounces at trailing-edge.com]
On Behalf Of Cory Smelosky
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 00:52
Cc: simh at trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] [HECnet] TOPS-20 V4.1 DECnet
On Sat, 3 May 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Hi.
On 2014-05-02 20:02, simh at swabhawat.com wrote:
Hi guys,
Well, if it truly is Phase II, then yeah, I would not expect it to
work. But I was pretty sure it was Phase III, in which case it should
work.
There's a tape listed as Phase III...is it not Phase III?!
Further there is no difference between the functioning of a Rsts-E
10.1 and a Rsx11MP46 Pdp11 with respect to Dup/Dmc/Ethernet if Rsts-E
will support the Dup/Dmc lines and will route as it is primarily an
Ethernet system.
Well, therein lies the problem. RSTS/E simply did not support a bunch
of thing that RSX did support.
But yes, assuming the OS support a device, it should work equally well
under RSTS/E and RSX.
Huh.
To make these things work the following has to be done:
1. Upgrade Tops20-4.1 Decnet to real phase-III, it then will link to a
Pdp10 Tops10 7.02 based phase-III router.
2. Repair/upgrade the Tops10 7.02 router code so that it will talk to a
phase-IV node.
What is wrong with the Tops-10 DECnet phase III code if it don't
interoperate with a phase IV node?
Both things will require Tops monitor programming; the Tops10 7.02
case will probably be the most simple of the two.
On the physical plane nothing is wrong as the packets do flow; only
the DDCMP communication process will not startup; it hangs around in
the startup phase.
That's sad.
But DDCMP should not be too hard to get working. And RSX support DDCMP
both on synchronous and asynchronous serial lines. And both using
devices that implement DDCMP, and software implemented DDCMP.
Johnny
Best regards
Reindert
-----Original Message-----
From: simh-bounces at trailing-edge.com
[mailto:simh-bounces at trailing-edge.com]
On Behalf Of Cory Smelosky
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 19:31
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Cc: simh at trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] [HECnet] TOPS-20 V4.1 DECnet
On Fri, 2 May 2014, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On May 2, 2014, at 12:59 PM, Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm
<Mark at infocomm.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 02, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
...If you want a RSTS system to connect to your Phase III machine,
you'll want to use a DMC (or DMR/DMP/DMV, they are all roughly
interchangeable). In a sufficiently recent SIMH, the DMC
emulation speaks real DDCMP so it should talk with a software
DDCMP
implementation, such as one that uses a DUP.
The DUP has only been tested talking to the KDP and DMC/DMR on RSX.
If
someone wants to try on RSTS I'd like to know if any issues are found.
I'll see what I can do. Since a DMC/DMR does DDCMP itself, it
shouldn't
matter what OS is talking to it; if you get success with DECnet/RSX,
I would expect it to work with DECnet/E as well.
Or, since it doesn't know sync from async, it will probably talk
to a software DDCMP implementation that uses a terminal interface.
I believe that it should also talk to an OS based DDCMP
implementation
which uses Async ports. If someone is willing to test this, I'll work
on
any kinks which may be found which might inhibit this.
I'm trying to make some progress on that (using RSTS V10.1).
Let me know. I'm interested in using RSTS/E to link TOPS-20/KS.
paul
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
Simh at trailing-edge.comhttp://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
Simh at trailing-edge.comhttp://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
Simh at trailing-edge.comhttp://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
From: <simh at swabhawat.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 2014 20:02:12 +0200
....
Tim Litt mentioned a while ago that Tops20 4.1 was rather more of a phase-II
then a III; I call it phase-II+ as it appears to have some routing
functionality.
I started at DEC around October of 1981, and at that time Phase II was
the rule, and everything supported "poor man's routing"; You specified
HOP1::HOP2::HOP3..... and the intermediate hops were made by
connecting to a "pass thruough" listener on an adjacent node. TOPS-20
5.1 with Phase III made it onto the layered products machine (KL2137)
not long after I arrived.
My recall is that the KL was never a router until Phase IV. A DN20 was
loaded with software ISTR everyone loved to hate (MCB?) that did Phase
III routing, so the KL may have been just a Phase II-ish endnode that
knew about Phase III addressing, and I wouldn't expect much more of
the KS, so multiple DECnet circuits on a KS may just not make much
sense.
But I was just a lowly FORTRAN team member....
Phil
_______________________________________________
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Simh at trailing-edge.comhttp://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Just to let you know, the Main branch already works on Linux (on the Pi and I think Debian too). The Dev branch, where I have been adding Network Management and DDCMP, and other bug fixes, is still Windows only.
Given the uptick in interest I will probably do a bit of work to get the Dev branch working on Linux in the next few days.
Regards
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On
Behalf Of Gregg Levine
Sent: 02 May 2014 23:56
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Getting reconnected...
Hello!
Robert I thought I'd mention that I've gone ahead and glommed a copy of the
router and source code to work with it. This will hopefully be on an Pi, and
possibly be on Win2K3 but that's about it for now....
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
Are you talking about the user mode router? If so, that would be me.
You can find it at http://route20.codeplex.com/ I have been doing most
of the more recent development on Windows, and have not ported it to
linux yet, but could do so if you are interested.
Regards
Rob
________________________________
From: Mark Benson
Sent: 02/ 05/ 2014 14:26
To: HECnet
Subject: [HECnet] Getting reconnected...
Hi,
Now I'm back, I need to get reconnected to HECnet and get some routing
sorted out. Multinet never worked, and I lost my fixed IP so I can't
use the bridge. Is anyone able to offer some kind of IP tunnel, maybe
VPN or something?
Also there was someone who was developing a Linux-based DECnet router,
is that still going/viable?
--
Mark Benson
http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK
Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.
On 2014-05-03 00:52, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On Sat, 3 May 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Hi.
On 2014-05-02 20:02, simh at swabhawat.com wrote:
Hi guys,
Well, if it truly is Phase II, then yeah, I would not expect it to
work. But I was pretty sure it was Phase III, in which case it should
work.
There's a tape listed as Phase III...is it not Phase III?!
That's what I read Reindert message as. I do not know for certain myself.
Further there is no difference between the functioning of a Rsts-E
10.1 and
a Rsx11MP46 Pdp11 with respect to Dup/Dmc/Ethernet if Rsts-E will
support
the Dup/Dmc lines and will route as it is primarily an Ethernet system.
Well, therein lies the problem. RSTS/E simply did not support a bunch
of thing that RSX did support.
But yes, assuming the OS support a device, it should work equally well
under RSTS/E and RSX.
Huh.
Did I write something strange? I thought not.
To reiterate. DECnet under RSX supports things that is not available under DECnet/E. Unless I remember wrong, DECnet/E do not support asynchronous DDCMP links. DECnet/E also cannot function as an area router. DECnet/E also do not support path splitting.
And I do not believe DECnet/E supports all the hardware that DECnet-RSX do.
Looking at the SPD, DECnet/E do not have support for the DUP11 for example.
Johnny
To make these things work the following has to be done:
1. Upgrade Tops20-4.1 Decnet to real phase-III, it then will link
to a
Pdp10 Tops10 7.02 based phase-III router.
2. Repair/upgrade the Tops10 7.02 router code so that it will talk
to a
phase-IV node.
What is wrong with the Tops-10 DECnet phase III code if it don't
interoperate with a phase IV node?
Both things will require Tops monitor programming; the Tops10 7.02
case will
probably be the most simple of the two.
On the physical plane nothing is wrong as the packets do flow; only the
DDCMP communication process will not startup; it hangs around in the
startup
phase.
That's sad.
But DDCMP should not be too hard to get working. And RSX support DDCMP
both on synchronous and asynchronous serial lines. And both using
devices that implement DDCMP, and software implemented DDCMP.
Johnny
Best regards
Reindert
-----Original Message-----
From: simh-bounces at trailing-edge.com
[mailto:simh-bounces at trailing-edge.com]
On Behalf Of Cory Smelosky
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 19:31
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Cc: simh at trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] [HECnet] TOPS-20 V4.1 DECnet
On Fri, 2 May 2014, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On May 2, 2014, at 12:59 PM, Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm
<Mark at infocomm.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 02, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
...If you want a RSTS system to connect to your Phase III machine,
you'll want to use a DMC (or DMR/DMP/DMV, they are all roughly
interchangeable). In a sufficiently recent SIMH, the DMC emulation
speaks real DDCMP so it should talk with a software DDCMP
implementation, such as one that uses a DUP.
The DUP has only been tested talking to the KDP and DMC/DMR on
RSX. If
someone wants to try on RSTS I'd like to know if any issues are found.
I'll see what I can do. Since a DMC/DMR does DDCMP itself, it
shouldn't
matter what OS is talking to it; if you get success with DECnet/RSX,
I would
expect it to work with DECnet/E as well.
Or, since it doesn't know sync from async, it will probably talk to
a software DDCMP implementation that uses a terminal interface.
I believe that it should also talk to an OS based DDCMP implementation
which uses Async ports. If someone is willing to test this, I'll
work on
any kinks which may be found which might inhibit this.
I'm trying to make some progress on that (using RSTS V10.1).
Let me know. I'm interested in using RSTS/E to link TOPS-20/KS.
paul
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
Simh at trailing-edge.comhttp://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
Simh at trailing-edge.comhttp://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
On 05/02/2014 06:49 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2014-05-02 21:03, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 05/02/2014 03:53 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
But using FORTRAN, we could potentially use overlays and such.
Well, overlays do not depend on FORTRAN, you can use that no matter what
language you choose.
Yes, of course. I don't know what I was thinking. Thank you for the
correction. I myself have only actually used overlays with FORTRAN;
that was probably the source of my error.
:-)
Late at night?
Yep. :-/
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Hello!
Robert I thought I'd mention that I've gone ahead and glommed a copy
of the router and source code to work with it. This will hopefully be
on an Pi, and possibly be on Win2K3 but that's about it for now....
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Robert Jarratt
<robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
Are you talking about the user mode router? If so, that would be me. You can
find it at http://route20.codeplex.com/ I have been doing most of the more
recent development on Windows, and have not ported it to linux yet, but
could do so if you are interested.
Regards
Rob
________________________________
From: Mark Benson
Sent: 02/ 05/ 2014 14:26
To: HECnet
Subject: [HECnet] Getting reconnected...
Hi,
Now I'm back, I need to get reconnected to HECnet and get some routing
sorted out. Multinet never worked, and I lost my fixed IP so I can't use the
bridge. Is anyone able to offer some kind of IP tunnel, maybe VPN or
something?
Also there was someone who was developing a Linux-based DECnet router, is
that still going/viable?
--
Mark Benson
http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK
Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.
On Sat, 3 May 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Hi.
On 2014-05-02 20:02, simh at swabhawat.com wrote:
Hi guys,
Well, if it truly is Phase II, then yeah, I would not expect it to work. But I was pretty sure it was Phase III, in which case it should work.
There's a tape listed as Phase III...is it not Phase III?!
Further there is no difference between the functioning of a Rsts-E 10.1 and
a Rsx11MP46 Pdp11 with respect to Dup/Dmc/Ethernet if Rsts-E will support
the Dup/Dmc lines and will route as it is primarily an Ethernet system.
Well, therein lies the problem. RSTS/E simply did not support a bunch of thing that RSX did support.
But yes, assuming the OS support a device, it should work equally well under RSTS/E and RSX.
Huh.
To make these things work the following has to be done:
1. Upgrade Tops20-4.1 Decnet to real phase-III, it then will link to a
Pdp10 Tops10 7.02 based phase-III router.
2. Repair/upgrade the Tops10 7.02 router code so that it will talk to a
phase-IV node.
What is wrong with the Tops-10 DECnet phase III code if it don't interoperate with a phase IV node?
Both things will require Tops monitor programming; the Tops10 7.02 case will
probably be the most simple of the two.
On the physical plane nothing is wrong as the packets do flow; only the
DDCMP communication process will not startup; it hangs around in the startup
phase.
That's sad.
But DDCMP should not be too hard to get working. And RSX support DDCMP both on synchronous and asynchronous serial lines. And both using devices that implement DDCMP, and software implemented DDCMP.
Johnny
Best regards
Reindert
-----Original Message-----
From: simh-bounces at trailing-edge.com [mailto:simh-bounces at trailing-edge.com]
On Behalf Of Cory Smelosky
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 19:31
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Cc: simh at trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] [HECnet] TOPS-20 V4.1 DECnet
On Fri, 2 May 2014, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On May 2, 2014, at 12:59 PM, Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm
<Mark at infocomm.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 02, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
...If you want a RSTS system to connect to your Phase III machine,
you'll want to use a DMC (or DMR/DMP/DMV, they are all roughly
interchangeable). In a sufficiently recent SIMH, the DMC emulation
speaks real DDCMP so it should talk with a software DDCMP
implementation, such as one that uses a DUP.
The DUP has only been tested talking to the KDP and DMC/DMR on RSX. If
someone wants to try on RSTS I'd like to know if any issues are found.
I'll see what I can do. Since a DMC/DMR does DDCMP itself, it shouldn't
matter what OS is talking to it; if you get success with DECnet/RSX, I would
expect it to work with DECnet/E as well.
Or, since it doesn't know sync from async, it will probably talk to
a software DDCMP implementation that uses a terminal interface.
I believe that it should also talk to an OS based DDCMP implementation
which uses Async ports. If someone is willing to test this, I'll work on
any kinks which may be found which might inhibit this.
I'm trying to make some progress on that (using RSTS V10.1).
Let me know. I'm interested in using RSTS/E to link TOPS-20/KS.
paul
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
Simh at trailing-edge.comhttp://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
Simh at trailing-edge.comhttp://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
On 2014-05-02 21:03, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 05/02/2014 03:53 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
But using FORTRAN, we could potentially use overlays and such.
Well, overlays do not depend on FORTRAN, you can use that no matter what
language you choose.
Yes, of course. I don't know what I was thinking. Thank you for the
correction. I myself have only actually used overlays with FORTRAN;
that was probably the source of my error.
:-)
Late at night?
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Hi.
On 2014-05-02 20:02, simh at swabhawat.com wrote:
Hi guys,
what you propose will not work.
I already connected a Tops20 4.1 with a phase-III Tops10 Pdp10 and even that
will not work.
Tops20-4.1 to a clone does as well as a Pdp10 phase-III to a clone does.
Tim Litt mentioned a while ago that Tops20 4.1 was rather more of a phase-II
then a III; I call it phase-II+ as it appears to have some routing
functionality.
So it will certainly not work with Rsts-E 10.1L and Rsx11MP46 as all these
are phase-IV.
Well, if it truly is Phase II, then yeah, I would not expect it to work. But I was pretty sure it was Phase III, in which case it should work.
Further there is no difference between the functioning of a Rsts-E 10.1 and
a Rsx11MP46 Pdp11 with respect to Dup/Dmc/Ethernet if Rsts-E will support
the Dup/Dmc lines and will route as it is primarily an Ethernet system.
Well, therein lies the problem. RSTS/E simply did not support a bunch of thing that RSX did support.
But yes, assuming the OS support a device, it should work equally well under RSTS/E and RSX.
To make these things work the following has to be done:
1. Upgrade Tops20-4.1 Decnet to real phase-III, it then will link to a
Pdp10 Tops10 7.02 based phase-III router.
2. Repair/upgrade the Tops10 7.02 router code so that it will talk to a
phase-IV node.
What is wrong with the Tops-10 DECnet phase III code if it don't interoperate with a phase IV node?
Both things will require Tops monitor programming; the Tops10 7.02 case will
probably be the most simple of the two.
On the physical plane nothing is wrong as the packets do flow; only the
DDCMP communication process will not startup; it hangs around in the startup
phase.
That's sad.
But DDCMP should not be too hard to get working. And RSX support DDCMP both on synchronous and asynchronous serial lines. And both using devices that implement DDCMP, and software implemented DDCMP.
Johnny
Best regards
Reindert
-----Original Message-----
From: simh-bounces at trailing-edge.com [mailto:simh-bounces at trailing-edge.com]
On Behalf Of Cory Smelosky
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 19:31
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Cc: simh at trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] [HECnet] TOPS-20 V4.1 DECnet
On Fri, 2 May 2014, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On May 2, 2014, at 12:59 PM, Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm
<Mark at infocomm.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 02, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
...If you want a RSTS system to connect to your Phase III machine,
you'll want to use a DMC (or DMR/DMP/DMV, they are all roughly
interchangeable). In a sufficiently recent SIMH, the DMC emulation
speaks real DDCMP so it should talk with a software DDCMP
implementation, such as one that uses a DUP.
The DUP has only been tested talking to the KDP and DMC/DMR on RSX. If
someone wants to try on RSTS I'd like to know if any issues are found.
I'll see what I can do. Since a DMC/DMR does DDCMP itself, it shouldn't
matter what OS is talking to it; if you get success with DECnet/RSX, I would
expect it to work with DECnet/E as well.
Or, since it doesn't know sync from async, it will probably talk to
a software DDCMP implementation that uses a terminal interface.
I believe that it should also talk to an OS based DDCMP implementation
which uses Async ports. If someone is willing to test this, I'll work on
any kinks which may be found which might inhibit this.
I'm trying to make some progress on that (using RSTS V10.1).
Let me know. I'm interested in using RSTS/E to link TOPS-20/KS.
paul
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
Simh at trailing-edge.comhttp://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
Simh at trailing-edge.comhttp://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
On Sat, 3 May 2014, Hans Vlems wrote:
This BlackBerry is a huge improvement. The formatting is off but at least you can read the content. The previous device was a disaster, remember? :-)
True, true. ;)
Verzonden vanaf mijn BlackBerry 10-smartphone.
Origineel bericht
?? Van: Cory Smelosky
Verzonden: zaterdag 3 mei 2014 00:22
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Beantwoorden: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Parallel computing using DECnet
On Sat, 3 May 2014, Hans Vlems wrote:
What error? It wasn't wrong, incomplete at most.
Verzonden vanaf mijn BlackBerry 10-smartphone.
Origineel bericht
?? Van: Dave McGuire
Verzonden: vrijdag 2 mei 2014 21:03
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Beantwoorden: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Parallel computing using DECnet
On 05/02/2014 03:53 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
But using FORTRAN, we could potentially use overlays and such.
Well, overlays do not depend on FORTRAN, you can use that no matter what
language you choose.
Yes, of course. I don't know what I was thinking. Thank you for the
correction. I myself have only actually used overlays with FORTRAN;
that was probably the source of my error.
-Dave
Your email client is really bad at formatting replies. ;)
Maybe it's just that I try to strip all HTML...:P
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
