On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 9:33 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2012-07-02 03:17, Gregg Levine wrote:
On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 9:10 PM, Bob Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
Dave McGuire wrote
PDP-8: there's a DECnet implementation for OS/8.
Do you actually have such a thing? There was a partial implementation
for
RTS/8 that was, AFAIK, never released. I have some sources for it, but
it's
unfinished.
Bob
Hello!
About all I found was those sources, on the iBib site. And for the
other OS, no hits so far on Google.
Steve interesting story, and yes I'm not asking about those three
letter agencies.
Let me put it to all of you this way. In the book "Cuckoo's Egg" as
related by Cliff Stoll, his(?) VAXes were networked, via Ethernet all
over the campus, (either running BSD or VMS), but they were connected
to the Internet via leased lines.
And in a Doctor Who book, who's reasonably accurate on the DEC based
side of things, and lousy on the desktop side, there are PDP-11s and
possibly a few early Vaxes. and even an Eclipse.
What I am curious about is how the PDP-11s talked to DEC Net based
systems.
And which ones of the R* operating systems could be confused into
doing that, and in what ways.
Well, considering the fact that DECnet was born on the PDP-11, the question
should perhaps be rephrased as how non-PDP11 systems managed to talk on
DECnet. :-)
If the question is more on a practical note of how connections were done, I
think the original was over serial lines, but I might be wrong. Multidrop as
well as some high speed links were available in Phase III, but ethernet only
became an option with DECnet phase IV.
Not sure about the time frame for packet switched interfaces. They certainly
existed in Phase IV, but I don't know if they were available already in
phase III.
The RTS-8 DECNET/8, which was mentioned earlier, talks DECNET over a serial
line, using DDCMP.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Hello!
Okay.
Now the question that's worth a full Fizzbin. How many of us here are
running under emulation? This means either a SIMH PDP11 or a E11. Or
an appropriate Alpha that's done the same way.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On 2012-07-02 03:17, Gregg Levine wrote:
On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 9:10 PM, Bob Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
Dave McGuire wrote
PDP-8: there's a DECnet implementation for OS/8.
Do you actually have such a thing? There was a partial implementation for
RTS/8 that was, AFAIK, never released. I have some sources for it, but it's
unfinished.
Bob
Hello!
About all I found was those sources, on the iBib site. And for the
other OS, no hits so far on Google.
Steve interesting story, and yes I'm not asking about those three
letter agencies.
Let me put it to all of you this way. In the book "Cuckoo's Egg" as
related by Cliff Stoll, his(?) VAXes were networked, via Ethernet all
over the campus, (either running BSD or VMS), but they were connected
to the Internet via leased lines.
And in a Doctor Who book, who's reasonably accurate on the DEC based
side of things, and lousy on the desktop side, there are PDP-11s and
possibly a few early Vaxes. and even an Eclipse.
What I am curious about is how the PDP-11s talked to DEC Net based systems.
And which ones of the R* operating systems could be confused into
doing that, and in what ways.
Well, considering the fact that DECnet was born on the PDP-11, the question should perhaps be rephrased as how non-PDP11 systems managed to talk on DECnet. :-)
If the question is more on a practical note of how connections were done, I think the original was over serial lines, but I might be wrong. Multidrop as well as some high speed links were available in Phase III, but ethernet only became an option with DECnet phase IV.
Not sure about the time frame for packet switched interfaces. They certainly existed in Phase IV, but I don't know if they were available already in phase III.
The RTS-8 DECNET/8, which was mentioned earlier, talks DECNET over a serial line, using DDCMP.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 9:10 PM, Bob Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
Dave McGuire wrote
PDP-8: there's a DECnet implementation for OS/8.
Do you actually have such a thing? There was a partial implementation for
RTS/8 that was, AFAIK, never released. I have some sources for it, but it's
unfinished.
Bob
Hello!
About all I found was those sources, on the iBib site. And for the
other OS, no hits so far on Google.
Steve interesting story, and yes I'm not asking about those three
letter agencies.
Let me put it to all of you this way. In the book "Cuckoo's Egg" as
related by Cliff Stoll, his(?) VAXes were networked, via Ethernet all
over the campus, (either running BSD or VMS), but they were connected
to the Internet via leased lines.
And in a Doctor Who book, who's reasonably accurate on the DEC based
side of things, and lousy on the desktop side, there are PDP-11s and
possibly a few early Vaxes. and even an Eclipse.
What I am curious about is how the PDP-11s talked to DEC Net based systems.
And which ones of the R* operating systems could be confused into
doing that, and in what ways.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On 07/01/2012 09:10 PM, Bob Armstrong wrote:
Dave McGuire wrote
PDP-8: there's a DECnet implementation for OS/8.
Do you actually have such a thing? There was a partial implementation for
RTS/8 that was, AFAIK, never released. I have some sources for it, but it's
unfinished.
Nope, I was mistaken, Johnny corrected me. I was thinking of the
RTS/8 implementation. I'm sorry for my error.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Dave McGuire wrote
PDP-8: there's a DECnet implementation for OS/8.
Do you actually have such a thing? There was a partial implementation for
RTS/8 that was, AFAIK, never released. I have some sources for it, but it's
unfinished.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
[mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 19:09
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] This is probably been asked already but....
On 07/01/2012 07:03 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Let's start with just the operating systems. I'm thinking
of trying
to get something running via SIMH soon, but I can't
promise anything
specific.
That really opens it up. ;) Simh emulates several
platforms for
which there are DECnet implementations:
PDP-8: there's a DECnet implementation for OS/8.
PDP-10: TOPS-10, TOPS-20
PDP-11: RSTS/E, RSX-11/M/M+
VAX: VMS, Ultrix
The PDP-8 DECnet is actually for RTS-8, and not OS/8. However, it's
also only PHASE II, so I think we could rule that one out.
Oops! My mistake, thank you for the correction. I thought
it was for OS/8. I consider myself to be a PDP-8 aficionado,
but I've never seen the DECnet implementation
For PDP-11, I think that there was also some kind of DECnet
for RT-11.
DECnet/RT was phase III only. The RT-11 group acquired the sources from
the DECnet group to update it. Unfortunately, the project was cancelled
due to funding issues. Funding went to support the ports to the
Pro-series, and BASIC-PLUS to RT-11 from RSTS/E. I started in the RT-11
group (c 1983) just as they acquired it. I was hoping to start on the
project but that was not to be... The "kit" was available on magtape
and RX50's. It was huge! It really needed to be reworked to make use
of the extended memory environment, but that was never to be.
And you have IAS, as well as (probably) RSX-11D.
IAS-11 was based on RSX-11D. It had three environments:
multi-user/multitasking like RSX, real-time like RSX (actually more like
VMS in some ways too), and a timesharing scheduler. IAS implemented the
original version of DCL! It did look in some ways like VMS (because of
DCL and the three environments), but was more RSX like than anything
else. I worked in Software Services, in Maynard. My job was to support
RSX (all flavors), IAS, VMS, RT, and a number of layered products. The
largest customers for IAS were the various three-letter groups within
the US government. I supported two of them. We will leave the names
for a different time... :-)
I don't think there was a DECnet for RT-11, but I could be wrong.
Isn't IAS basically a chopped-down RSX?
Also, I wonder if VAXELN also had DECnet?
I'd imagine so, but I'm not certain. I'd guess yes because
the firmware for some of DEC's X terminals is based on
VAXELN, and early X implementations supported X over DECnet.
And isn't there some sort of Alpha in simh as well nowadays?
Barely, but yes. It's not really far along enough to be useful yet.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Area 44 is down. I"m on holliday until 8 July
------Origineel bericht------
Van: Johnny Billquist
Afzender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Beantwoorden: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Area list
Verzonden: 1 juli 2012 18:46
On 2012-07-01 18:16, Steve Davidson wrote:
Johnny,
Please send out the latest copy of the AREA list to the reflector. It
would be nice to know what is real about areas, locations, and "owner".
I have currently area 7 and 8 disabled on my bridge, just FYI. Seems to
have at least stabilized things on my side.
Routing loops are bad. However, DECnet should normally be able to
resolve this, and get things right, as from a topology point of view,
DECnet can have multiple paths between nodes. Something is wrong, indeed...
The current list of the areas are on MIM::, which is shut down at the
moment, because of the issues with the computer hall. I hope to have the
machine back up and running soon...
Since GORVAX have an alternative connection, I'll keep it off at my end
for now, for trouble shooting. As things looks stable right now, it will
be interesting to turn area 7 back on and see what happens. Hold on to
your hats...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On 2012-07-02 02:07, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 07/01/2012 07:47 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Let's start with just the operating systems. I'm thinking of trying to
get something running via SIMH soon, but I can't promise anything
specific.
That really opens it up. ;) Simh emulates several platforms for
which
there are DECnet implementations:
PDP-8: there's a DECnet implementation for OS/8.
PDP-10: TOPS-10, TOPS-20
PDP-11: RSTS/E, RSX-11/M/M+
VAX: VMS, Ultrix
The PDP-8 DECnet is actually for RTS-8, and not OS/8. However, it's also
only PHASE II, so I think we could rule that one out.
Oops! My mistake, thank you for the correction. I thought it was for
OS/8. I consider myself to be a PDP-8 aficionado, but I've never seen
the DECnet implementation
I've had PDP-8s at home for the last 25 years...
Nice! Me too, for about the same amount of time. :-) I love -8s.
PDP-8s are definitely fun machines.
I have DECnet-8, by the way. It's for RTS-8 V2. It's available on the
net if you search around...
I hope to get around to messing with it sometime soon, now that I have
some space in which to work.
It's on a long list of things I'd like to look at. Don't see it happening anytime soon, considering how much other stuff I have on that list. :-)
For PDP-11, I think that there was also some kind of DECnet for RT-11.
And you have IAS, as well as (probably) RSX-11D.
I don't think there was a DECnet for RT-11, but I could be wrong.
There was. Megan Gentry commented several years ago on a thread we had,
that it was Phase III only. There was some initial plans and work to get
it to Phase IV, which she was involved in, but it was cancelled.
I don't have that code, though.
Oh my! I wonder who DOES have that code. We should see if we can
track it down.
Megan might. Probably one or two other people as well, but I have very few clues about RT-11...
Isn't IAS basically a chopped-down RSX?
No. IAS is a separate thread in the RSX family, but it's based on -11D,
as far as I understand. Seems to have had some really cool features, but
I've never actually used it, only read some manuals.
In some ways, it reminds me a lot of VMS. Much more of the same
attitudes like VMS. It implements all kind of stuff.
Oh ok. Sounds interesting. I had a manual set for RSX-11/M V4.0 for
my first -11 ages ago, and there was mention of IAS on just about every
page; apparently there was quite a bit of common code and/or design. I
didn't know it was that divergent. I've never messed with it, but now
I'm interested in finding it to explore.
Well, basically all userland is compatible between RSX and IAS. Internally, they differ a lot.
So, for manuals, all tools and the like were shared between RSX and IAS. Also layered products were shared.
Did you ever about some unused parameters in RSX, which as the PRIO parameter in a QIO$? Well, in IAS those are used...
Also, device drivers in IAS are actual, normal tasks, and not special pieces of code mapped and run in the context of the kernel.
IAS also works in three different "modes". If I remember it was something like real-time mode, program development/interactive and batch. Exactly what the differences were I'm not entirely sure, and one did not totally exclude the other.
You can read a little more at: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFEQFjA…
(Sorry for the ugly long link...)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On 07/01/2012 07:47 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Let's start with just the operating systems. I'm thinking of trying to
get something running via SIMH soon, but I can't promise anything
specific.
That really opens it up. ;) Simh emulates several platforms for
which
there are DECnet implementations:
PDP-8: there's a DECnet implementation for OS/8.
PDP-10: TOPS-10, TOPS-20
PDP-11: RSTS/E, RSX-11/M/M+
VAX: VMS, Ultrix
The PDP-8 DECnet is actually for RTS-8, and not OS/8. However, it's also
only PHASE II, so I think we could rule that one out.
Oops! My mistake, thank you for the correction. I thought it was for
OS/8. I consider myself to be a PDP-8 aficionado, but I've never seen
the DECnet implementation
I've had PDP-8s at home for the last 25 years...
Nice! Me too, for about the same amount of time. :-) I love -8s.
I have DECnet-8, by the way. It's for RTS-8 V2. It's available on the
net if you search around...
I hope to get around to messing with it sometime soon, now that I have
some space in which to work.
For PDP-11, I think that there was also some kind of DECnet for RT-11.
And you have IAS, as well as (probably) RSX-11D.
I don't think there was a DECnet for RT-11, but I could be wrong.
There was. Megan Gentry commented several years ago on a thread we had,
that it was Phase III only. There was some initial plans and work to get
it to Phase IV, which she was involved in, but it was cancelled.
I don't have that code, though.
Oh my! I wonder who DOES have that code. We should see if we can
track it down.
Isn't IAS basically a chopped-down RSX?
No. IAS is a separate thread in the RSX family, but it's based on -11D,
as far as I understand. Seems to have had some really cool features, but
I've never actually used it, only read some manuals.
In some ways, it reminds me a lot of VMS. Much more of the same
attitudes like VMS. It implements all kind of stuff.
Oh ok. Sounds interesting. I had a manual set for RSX-11/M V4.0 for
my first -11 ages ago, and there was mention of IAS on just about every
page; apparently there was quite a bit of common code and/or design. I
didn't know it was that divergent. I've never messed with it, but now
I'm interested in finding it to explore.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 2012-07-02 01:08, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 07/01/2012 07:03 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Let's start with just the operating systems. I'm thinking of trying to
get something running via SIMH soon, but I can't promise anything
specific.
That really opens it up. ;) Simh emulates several platforms for which
there are DECnet implementations:
PDP-8: there's a DECnet implementation for OS/8.
PDP-10: TOPS-10, TOPS-20
PDP-11: RSTS/E, RSX-11/M/M+
VAX: VMS, Ultrix
The PDP-8 DECnet is actually for RTS-8, and not OS/8. However, it's also
only PHASE II, so I think we could rule that one out.
Oops! My mistake, thank you for the correction. I thought it was for
OS/8. I consider myself to be a PDP-8 aficionado, but I've never seen
the DECnet implementation
I've had PDP-8s at home for the last 25 years...
I have DECnet-8, by the way. It's for RTS-8 V2. It's available on the net if you search around...
For PDP-11, I think that there was also some kind of DECnet for RT-11.
And you have IAS, as well as (probably) RSX-11D.
I don't think there was a DECnet for RT-11, but I could be wrong.
There was. Megan Gentry commented several years ago on a thread we had, that it was Phase III only. There was some initial plans and work to get it to Phase IV, which she was involved in, but it was cancelled.
I don't have that code, though.
Isn't IAS basically a chopped-down RSX?
No. IAS is a separate thread in the RSX family, but it's based on -11D, as far as I understand. Seems to have had some really cool features, but I've never actually used it, only read some manuals.
In some ways, it reminds me a lot of VMS. Much more of the same attitudes like VMS. It implements all kind of stuff.
Also, I wonder if VAXELN also had DECnet?
I'd imagine so, but I'm not certain. I'd guess yes because the
firmware for some of DEC's X terminals is based on VAXELN, and early X
implementations supported X over DECnet.
Ah. Good point. I had forgotten about the X terminals.
And isn't there some sort of Alpha in simh as well nowadays?
Barely, but yes. It's not really far along enough to be useful yet.
Ok.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
