On 10/10/2013 15:32, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Oct 10, 2013, at 8:44 AM, Brian Hechinger <wonko at 4amlunch.net> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:36:04PM +0200, Peter Lothberg wrote:
...
For example cisco/cabletron/crecendo had ethnernet switches with a
FDDI uplink, that you could use.
DEC made one as well, it was that large modular thingie. I used to have
one. Never got it powered on as it was enormous.
DEC made at least three.
The original one is the DECbridge 500, a 3U rack mounted device, 3 or 4 cards, 3 Ethernets (10 Mb/s) to FDDI. See the DTJ issue I mentioned in my previous note.
The other two: the DECbridge 900, which plugged into the 900 series modular enclosure. It's about the side of a 400 page hardcover book, FDDI to 6 Ethernet ports, 60,000 packets per second using a MC68040 at 25 MHz. I'm still proud of that. (I wrote the "fast path" packet forwarding firmware.)
Then there is the Gigaswitch, a large modular chassis with lots of line cards, some FDDI, some Ethernet, possibly some with other stuff I don't remember.
paul
I meant to say that I have a DEC VNswitch 900XX plugged into a DEChub One MX - there are clearly modular parts to that, but I'm presuming there isn't a FDDI copper module that I would be able to use?
Thanks, Mark.
--
http://www.wickensonline.co.ukhttp://hecnet.euhttp://declegacy.org.ukhttp://retrochallenge.nethttps://twitter.com/#!/%40urbancamo
On 10/10/2013 15:29, Brian Hechinger wrote:
All this talk of FDDI makes me want to go get the 4000/500s. I have a
pair of QBus FDDI cards. I suppose I would have to make the Octane a
router between FDDI and ethernet. :)
-brian
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:26:23PM +0000, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
If you have SAS NICs. you can connect a pair of them (S to S).
Thanks for all the info guys, I knew you'd be one hell of a knowledgeable lot!
If I understand what you are saying correctly, if I have NODE3 with the Turbochannel FDDI card (copper based) and a.n.other (call it NODE2 for arguments sake) ALPHA with a PCI FDDI Copper card I could wire them too together directly?
If that were so I would presumably need to do some routing within NODE2 to allow NODE3 access to network traffic if NODE2 was also connected to the 'great wide world' via ethernet.
Is there anything I'm missing in this picture?
Regards, Mark.
--
http://www.wickensonline.co.ukhttp://hecnet.euhttp://declegacy.org.ukhttp://retrochallenge.nethttps://twitter.com/#!/%40urbancamo
On Thu, 10 Oct 2013, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Oct 10, 2013, at 8:44 AM, Brian Hechinger <wonko at 4amlunch.net> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:36:04PM +0200, Peter Lothberg wrote:
...
For example cisco/cabletron/crecendo had ethnernet switches with a
FDDI uplink, that you could use.
DEC made one as well, it was that large modular thingie. I used to have
one. Never got it powered on as it was enormous.
DEC made at least three.
The original one is the DECbridge 500, a 3U rack mounted device, 3 or 4 cards, 3 Ethernets (10 Mb/s) to FDDI. See the DTJ issue I mentioned in my previous note.
The other two: the DECbridge 900, which plugged into the 900 series modular enclosure. It's about the side of a 400 page hardcover book, FDDI to 6 Ethernet ports, 60,000 packets per second using a MC68040 at 25 MHz. I'm still proud of that. (I wrote the "fast path" packet forwarding firmware.)
Either my 400 page hardback books are small, or that's a tiny bridge.
Then there is the Gigaswitch, a large modular chassis with lots of line cards, some FDDI, some Ethernet, possibly some with other stuff I don't remember.
Neat.
paul
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:32:26PM +0000, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Oct 10, 2013, at 8:44 AM, Brian Hechinger <wonko at 4amlunch.net> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:36:04PM +0200, Peter Lothberg wrote:
...
For example cisco/cabletron/crecendo had ethnernet switches with a
FDDI uplink, that you could use.
DEC made one as well, it was that large modular thingie. I used to have
one. Never got it powered on as it was enormous.
The original one is the DECbridge 500, a 3U rack mounted device, 3 or 4 cards, 3 Ethernets (10 Mb/s) to FDDI. See the DTJ issue I mentioned in my previous note.
The other two: the DECbridge 900, which plugged into the 900 series modular enclosure. It's about the side of a 400 page hardcover book, FDDI to 6 Ethernet ports, 60,000 packets per second using a MC68040 at 25 MHz. I'm still proud of that. (I wrote the "fast path" packet forwarding firmware.)
Neat!
Then there is the Gigaswitch, a large modular chassis with lots of line cards, some FDDI, some Ethernet, possibly some with other stuff I don't remember.
I think this is the one I had. Big modular thing. Maybe (and going by
really fuzzy memory here) 8U high?
-brian
On Thu, 10 Oct 2013, Brian Hechinger wrote:
All this talk of FDDI makes me want to go get the 4000/500s. I have a
pair of QBus FDDI cards. I suppose I would have to make the Octane a
router between FDDI and ethernet. :)
I still need to get a QBus system. :(
Have one to spare? ;)
-brian
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:26:23PM +0000, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Oct 10, 2013, at 8:44 AM, Brian Hechinger <wonko at 4amlunch.net> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:36:04PM +0200, Peter Lothberg wrote:
FDDI/CDDI is a dual ring token ring bus, with 4470 MTU byte packets,
it has 802.-- frames. DEC had a mode where you turned the token off
and used it for ptp full duplex.
I didn't know about the ptp thing. That's nifty.
For example cisco/cabletron/crecendo had ethnernet switches with a
FDDI uplink, that you could use.
DEC made one as well, it was that large modular thingie. I used to have
one. Never got it powered on as it was enormous.
But you need nothing to build a FDDI ring, its a A and a B ring, you
can just plug the cards together with fiber-patch-cables.
Unless you have one of those obnoxious single attached station cards.
-brian
Ah, time to dust off some dormant memories. I used to work on the FDDI standard at DEC; this stuff is familiar.
"CDDI" is marketing slang; it is not standard terminology.
FDDI is different from Ethernet; the MAC layer protocol is completely unrelated. It's quite similar to token bus (802.4), actually. (The only thing it has in commoni with 802.5 is the words "token" and "ring" -- apart from that, the two protocols operate completely differently.)
FDDI connections have a "type", which can be "A", "B", "S", or "M". "M" ports exist on concentrators. NICs will have A and B ports, if there are two connectors on the NIC ("dual attached station" or DAS) or an S port, if there is one connector (single attached station or SAS).
You have a number of topology options.
If you have DAS NICs, you can wire any number of them together in a "dual ring". That's the original FDDI topology, before DEC forced concentrators to be added into the standard. To do that, connect the NICs in circular fashion, A to B. Connected that way, loss of any single connection is handled transparently.
If you have SAS NICs. you can connect a pair of them (S to S).
If you have DAS NICs plus or or two SAS, wire the DAS NICs A-B in a chain (essentially a dual ring cut open). Then connect a SAS to each end (or just to one end, if you have one SAS). There is no redundancy in this config.
Finally, if you have any concentrators, you can build a tree config out of those. If so, the M connectors connect to the NIC connectors (A, B, or S), and the concentrator's A and B connectors either connect to M ports higher up in the hierarchy, or in a dual ring if you have a ring of concentrators, or nowhere if you're at the root of a tree.
FDDI fiber connectors are standardized but different from fiber connectors used by other networks. The connector is fairly large, flat rectangular with a shroud covering the fiber ends. Connectors are keyed to match the port type, though you can omit the keys and just wire carefully. Standard fiber is 62.5/125 micrometer, but 50/125 also works.
You can find more in the DEC Technical Journal, Vol. 3 No. 2, spring 1991. Or the relevant ANSI/ISO standards if you are a masochist. The topology rules are described fairly well in the concentrator article in DTJ, but their full glory can be found in the FDDI "SMT" (station management" standard.
paul
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On Oct 10, 2013, at 8:44 AM, Brian Hechinger <wonko at 4amlunch.net> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:36:04PM +0200, Peter Lothberg wrote:
...
For example cisco/cabletron/crecendo had ethnernet switches with a
FDDI uplink, that you could use.
DEC made one as well, it was that large modular thingie. I used to have
one. Never got it powered on as it was enormous.
DEC made at least three.
The original one is the DECbridge 500, a 3U rack mounted device, 3 or 4 cards, 3 Ethernets (10 Mb/s) to FDDI. See the DTJ issue I mentioned in my previous note.
The other two: the DECbridge 900, which plugged into the 900 series modular enclosure. It's about the side of a 400 page hardcover book, FDDI to 6 Ethernet ports, 60,000 packets per second using a MC68040 at 25 MHz. I'm still proud of that. (I wrote the "fast path" packet forwarding firmware.)
Then there is the Gigaswitch, a large modular chassis with lots of line cards, some FDDI, some Ethernet, possibly some with other stuff I don't remember.
paul
On Thu, 10 Oct 2013, Brian Hechinger wrote:
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 10:21:37AM -0400, Cory Smelosky wrote:
If you could SAS as pure SCSI, SAS/SCSI converters are dirt cheap. ;)
Links? It's an obnoxious thing to search for. :)
Oops. I meant SAS/SATA. They're dirt cheap as you just grab the right SFF cable. ;)
This is patently untrue. The 146G disks in my 4000/90 prove that. :)
I'd be surprised if you weren't using an adapter to attach an SCA
drive. I tried that but the VAX didn't like seeing my 36G 10k RPM
drive. I also kept bumping it and shorting out the adapter on the
case...
I did, but that shouldn't make any difference. It's just adapts between
different physical connectors. There is no magic in a 50-pin/SCA
adapter.
I must've had IDs and termination set wrong then.
Iirc solid-state SCSI drives existed.
They did, and they still exist. They tend to be industrial grade stuff,
however and also tend to be silly expensive.
Yeah.
It's unfortunate, really. :(]
Yeah. :(
-brian
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
All this talk of FDDI makes me want to go get the 4000/500s. I have a
pair of QBus FDDI cards. I suppose I would have to make the Octane a
router between FDDI and ethernet. :)
-brian
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:26:23PM +0000, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Oct 10, 2013, at 8:44 AM, Brian Hechinger <wonko at 4amlunch.net> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:36:04PM +0200, Peter Lothberg wrote:
FDDI/CDDI is a dual ring token ring bus, with 4470 MTU byte packets,
it has 802.-- frames. DEC had a mode where you turned the token off
and used it for ptp full duplex.
I didn't know about the ptp thing. That's nifty.
For example cisco/cabletron/crecendo had ethnernet switches with a
FDDI uplink, that you could use.
DEC made one as well, it was that large modular thingie. I used to have
one. Never got it powered on as it was enormous.
But you need nothing to build a FDDI ring, its a A and a B ring, you
can just plug the cards together with fiber-patch-cables.
Unless you have one of those obnoxious single attached station cards.
-brian
Ah, time to dust off some dormant memories. I used to work on the FDDI standard at DEC; this stuff is familiar.
"CDDI" is marketing slang; it is not standard terminology.
FDDI is different from Ethernet; the MAC layer protocol is completely unrelated. It's quite similar to token bus (802.4), actually. (The only thing it has in commoni with 802.5 is the words "token" and "ring" -- apart from that, the two protocols operate completely differently.)
FDDI connections have a "type", which can be "A", "B", "S", or "M". "M" ports exist on concentrators. NICs will have A and B ports, if there are two connectors on the NIC ("dual attached station" or DAS) or an S port, if there is one connector (single attached station or SAS).
You have a number of topology options.
If you have DAS NICs, you can wire any number of them together in a "dual ring". That's the original FDDI topology, before DEC forced concentrators to be added into the standard. To do that, connect the NICs in circular fashion, A to B. Connected that way, loss of any single connection is handled transparently.
If you have SAS NICs. you can connect a pair of them (S to S).
If you have DAS NICs plus or or two SAS, wire the DAS NICs A-B in a chain (essentially a dual ring cut open). Then connect a SAS to each end (or just to one end, if you have one SAS). There is no redundancy in this config.
Finally, if you have any concentrators, you can build a tree config out of those. If so, the M connectors connect to the NIC connectors (A, B, or S), and the concentrator's A and B connectors either connect to M ports higher up in the hierarchy, or in a dual ring if you have a ring of concentrators, or nowhere if you're at the root of a tree.
FDDI fiber connectors are standardized but different from fiber connectors used by other networks. The connector is fairly large, flat rectangular with a shroud covering the fiber ends. Connectors are keyed to match the port type, though you can omit the keys and just wire carefully. Standard fiber is 62.5/125 micrometer, but 50/125 also works.
You can find more in the DEC Technical Journal, Vol. 3 No. 2, spring 1991. Or the relevant ANSI/ISO standards if you are a masochist. The topology rules are described fairly well in the concentrator article in DTJ, but their full glory can be found in the FDDI "SMT" (station management" standard.
paul
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 10:21:37AM -0400, Cory Smelosky wrote:
If you could SAS as pure SCSI, SAS/SCSI converters are dirt cheap. ;)
Links? It's an obnoxious thing to search for. :)
This is patently untrue. The 146G disks in my 4000/90 prove that. :)
I'd be surprised if you weren't using an adapter to attach an SCA
drive. I tried that but the VAX didn't like seeing my 36G 10k RPM
drive. I also kept bumping it and shorting out the adapter on the
case...
I did, but that shouldn't make any difference. It's just adapts between
different physical connectors. There is no magic in a 50-pin/SCA
adapter.
Iirc solid-state SCSI drives existed.
They did, and they still exist. They tend to be industrial grade stuff,
however and also tend to be silly expensive.
Yeah.
It's unfortunate, really. :(
-brian
On Oct 10, 2013, at 8:44 AM, Brian Hechinger <wonko at 4amlunch.net> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:36:04PM +0200, Peter Lothberg wrote:
FDDI/CDDI is a dual ring token ring bus, with 4470 MTU byte packets,
it has 802.-- frames. DEC had a mode where you turned the token off
and used it for ptp full duplex.
I didn't know about the ptp thing. That's nifty.
For example cisco/cabletron/crecendo had ethnernet switches with a
FDDI uplink, that you could use.
DEC made one as well, it was that large modular thingie. I used to have
one. Never got it powered on as it was enormous.
But you need nothing to build a FDDI ring, its a A and a B ring, you
can just plug the cards together with fiber-patch-cables.
Unless you have one of those obnoxious single attached station cards.
-brian
Ah, time to dust off some dormant memories. I used to work on the FDDI standard at DEC; this stuff is familiar.
"CDDI" is marketing slang; it is not standard terminology.
FDDI is different from Ethernet; the MAC layer protocol is completely unrelated. It's quite similar to token bus (802.4), actually. (The only thing it has in commoni with 802.5 is the words "token" and "ring" -- apart from that, the two protocols operate completely differently.)
FDDI connections have a "type", which can be "A", "B", "S", or "M". "M" ports exist on concentrators. NICs will have A and B ports, if there are two connectors on the NIC ("dual attached station" or DAS) or an S port, if there is one connector (single attached station or SAS).
You have a number of topology options.
If you have DAS NICs, you can wire any number of them together in a "dual ring". That's the original FDDI topology, before DEC forced concentrators to be added into the standard. To do that, connect the NICs in circular fashion, A to B. Connected that way, loss of any single connection is handled transparently.
If you have SAS NICs. you can connect a pair of them (S to S).
If you have DAS NICs plus or or two SAS, wire the DAS NICs A-B in a chain (essentially a dual ring cut open). Then connect a SAS to each end (or just to one end, if you have one SAS). There is no redundancy in this config.
Finally, if you have any concentrators, you can build a tree config out of those. If so, the M connectors connect to the NIC connectors (A, B, or S), and the concentrator's A and B connectors either connect to M ports higher up in the hierarchy, or in a dual ring if you have a ring of concentrators, or nowhere if you're at the root of a tree.
FDDI fiber connectors are standardized but different from fiber connectors used by other networks. The connector is fairly large, flat rectangular with a shroud covering the fiber ends. Connectors are keyed to match the port type, though you can omit the keys and just wire carefully. Standard fiber is 62.5/125 micrometer, but 50/125 also works.
You can find more in the DEC Technical Journal, Vol. 3 No. 2, spring 1991. Or the relevant ANSI/ISO standards if you are a masochist. The topology rules are described fairly well in the concentrator article in DTJ, but their full glory can be found in the FDDI "SMT" (station management" standard.
paul
