A hu is two inches, right?
Van: Brian Hechinger
Verzonden: donderdag 10 oktober 2013 16:35
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Beantwoorden: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] FDDI advice
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:32:26PM +0000, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
> >
> > On Oct 10, 2013, at 8:44 AM, Brian Hechinger <wonko at 4amlunch.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:36:04PM +0200, Peter Lothberg wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>> For example cisco/cabletron/crecendo had ethnernet switches with a
> >>> FDDI uplink, that you could use.
> >>
> >> DEC made one as well, it was that large modular thingie. I used to have
> >> one. Never got it powered on as it was enormous.
>
> The original one is the DECbridge 500, a 3U rack mounted device, 3 or 4 cards, 3 Ethernets (10 Mb/s) to FDDI. See the DTJ issue I mentioned in my previous note.
>
> The other two: the DECbridge 900, which plugged into the 900 series modular enclosure. It's about the side of a 400 page hardcover book, FDDI to 6 Ethernet ports, 60,000 packets per second using a MC68040 at 25 MHz. I'm still proud of that. (I wrote the "fast path" packet forwarding firmware.)
Neat!
> Then there is the Gigaswitch, a large modular chassis with lots of line cards, some FDDI, some Ethernet, possibly some with other stuff I don't remember.
I think this is the one I had. Big modular thing. Maybe (and going by
really fuzzy memory here) 8U high?
-brian
There was a gs/atm and a gs/fddi. I cannot remember fast ethernet for the gs/fddi.
Mainly because we used Dec hub 900 modules to step down to regular ethernet, fast ethernet only for alphas.
Van: Paul_Koning at Dell.com
Verzonden: donderdag 10 oktober 2013 16:32
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Beantwoorden: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] FDDI advice
>
> On Oct 10, 2013, at 8:44 AM, Brian Hechinger <wonko at 4amlunch.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:36:04PM +0200, Peter Lothberg wrote:
>>> ...
>>> For example cisco/cabletron/crecendo had ethnernet switches with a
>>> FDDI uplink, that you could use.
>>
>> DEC made one as well, it was that large modular thingie. I used to have
>> one. Never got it powered on as it was enormous.
DEC made at least three.
The original one is the DECbridge 500, a 3U rack mounted device, 3 or 4 cards, 3 Ethernets (10 Mb/s) to FDDI. See the DTJ issue I mentioned in my previous note.
The other two: the DECbridge 900, which plugged into the 900 series modular enclosure. It's about the side of a 400 page hardcover book, FDDI to 6 Ethernet ports, 60,000 packets per second using a MC68040 at 25 MHz. I'm still proud of that. (I wrote the "fast path" packet forwarding firmware.)
Then there is the Gigaswitch, a large modular chassis with lots of line cards, some FDDI, some Ethernet, possibly some with other stuff I don't remember.
paul
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 01:01:06PM -0400, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On Thu, 10 Oct 2013, Brian Hechinger wrote:
Going and rescuing all that stuff is something I really want to do one
day. Not anytime soon though. :(
Save me one! ;)
If that stuff is indeed still in that barn, you can have most of it. :)
-brian
Paul, at Fuji we used the Dec bridge 500 and 600 series, the decconcentrator 550 and the gigaswitch/fddi. It worked ver reliable to the point that I had serious problems obtaining budget to put some redundancy in the LAN. Three rings needed at least 4 gigaswitches.
Hans
Van: Paul_Koning at Dell.com
Verzonden: donderdag 10 oktober 2013 16:26
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Beantwoorden: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] FDDI advice
On Oct 10, 2013, at 8:44 AM, Brian Hechinger <wonko at 4amlunch.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:36:04PM +0200, Peter Lothberg wrote:
>>
>> FDDI/CDDI is a dual ring token ring bus, with 4470 MTU byte packets,
>> it has 802.-- frames. DEC had a mode where you turned the token off
>> and used it for ptp full duplex.
>
> I didn't know about the ptp thing. That's nifty.
>
>> For example cisco/cabletron/crecendo had ethnernet switches with a
>> FDDI uplink, that you could use.
>
> DEC made one as well, it was that large modular thingie. I used to have
> one. Never got it powered on as it was enormous.
>
>> But you need nothing to build a FDDI ring, its a A and a B ring, you
>> can just plug the cards together with fiber-patch-cables.
>
> Unless you have one of those obnoxious single attached station cards.
>
> -brian
Ah, time to dust off some dormant memories. I used to work on the FDDI standard at DEC; this stuff is familiar.
"CDDI" is marketing slang; it is not standard terminology.
FDDI is different from Ethernet; the MAC layer protocol is completely unrelated. It's quite similar to token bus (802.4), actually. (The only thing it has in commoni with 802.5 is the words "token" and "ring" -- apart from that, the two protocols operate completely differently.)
FDDI connections have a "type", which can be "A", "B", "S", or "M". "M" ports exist on concentrators. NICs will have A and B ports, if there are two connectors on the NIC ("dual attached station" or DAS) or an S port, if there is one connector (single attached station or SAS).
You have a number of topology options.
If you have DAS NICs, you can wire any number of them together in a "dual ring". That's the original FDDI topology, before DEC forced concentrators to be added into the standard. To do that, connect the NICs in circular fashion, A to B. Connected that way, loss of any single connection is handled transparently.
If you have SAS NICs. you can connect a pair of them (S to S).
If you have DAS NICs plus or or two SAS, wire the DAS NICs A-B in a chain (essentially a dual ring cut open). Then connect a SAS to each end (or just to one end, if you have one SAS). There is no redundancy in this config.
Finally, if you have any concentrators, you can build a tree config out of those. If so, the M connectors connect to the NIC connectors (A, B, or S), and the concentrator's A and B connectors either connect to M ports higher up in the hierarchy, or in a dual ring if you have a ring of concentrators, or nowhere if you're at the root of a tree.
FDDI fiber connectors are standardized but different from fiber connectors used by other networks. The connector is fairly large, flat rectangular with a shroud covering the fiber ends. Connectors are keyed to match the port type, though you can omit the keys and just wire carefully. Standard fiber is 62.5/125 micrometer, but 50/125 also works.
You can find more in the DEC Technical Journal, Vol. 3 No. 2, spring 1991. Or the relevant ANSI/ISO standards if you are a masochist. The topology rules are described fairly well in the concentrator article in DTJ, but their full glory can be found in the FDDI "SMT" (station management" standard.
paul
On Thu, 10 Oct 2013, Brian Hechinger wrote:
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 12:36:47PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 10/10/2013 10:29 AM, Brian Hechinger wrote:
All this talk of FDDI makes me want to go get the 4000/500s. I have a
pair of QBus FDDI cards. I suppose I would have to make the Octane a
router between FDDI and ethernet. :)
Are any of those 4000/500s mine? ;)
Nope. I picked these up from Villanova University several years ago.
I was interviewing at a place recently and the subject of VAXen came up.
Interviewer: "I remember have an account on a pair of 4000/500s in a
cluster when I was at Villanova years ago."
Me: "Those machines are at my house now!"
Interviewer: "NO WAY!"
I had quite a few machines up
here in your old place at one point. Don't worry, I'd only be after one
of them, and even that is low-priority at this point.
Going and rescuing all that stuff is something I really want to do one
day. Not anytime soon though. :(
Save me one! ;)
-brian
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On Thu, 10 Oct 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 10/10/2013 11:59 AM, Mark Wickens wrote:
... I have a DEC VNswitch 900XX plugged into a DEChub One MX - there
are clearly modular parts to that, but I'm presuming there isn't a
FDDI copper module that I would be able to use?
That looks different (same size, though). The one I was talking about
is the DECbridge 900. I see some variations on the net -- DECbridge
900MX seems to be the same except that it has two AUI connectors
instead of being all 10Base-T. And I think the original was a SAS (S
port) while the MX is a DAS (A and B ports).
http://decdoc.itsx.net/dec94mds/defbaina.pdf has details and a picture.
paul
Unfortunately, as nice a box as it is (that counts for most things with
a 68k in ;) FDDI to 10MB doesn't solve any problems for me as the sole
benefit is the jump to 100MB over the standard ethernet card in the
3000/800, so any solution that is going to work would need to give me
access to 100MB+ at the other end of the FDDI.
The best way I've found to do this is to do it at the switch level.
(I have run lots and lots of FDDI, at work and home)
What I'd recommend is to pick up a Cisco Catalyst 5000 or 5500. That
can take lots of Ethernet modules, covering 10/100/1000Mbps, and there
are FDDI modules for them as well.
Or a Catalyst 4000! I was offered 36 of them...I'd not quite have room for 36 10U switches in my home...
These are very fast, very reliable switches.
You can also get an RSM, the Route-Switch Module, which is basically a
7500 router on a board. It routes between VLANs on the switch, and in
that capacity can do most anything a full standalone 7500-class router
can do. It's got a separate console interface, separate PCMCIA slots,
etc...it's like a standalone router.
Can it take its own modules though?
Perhaps I should upgrade from a 3745 at the core of my house...;)
The Catalys 5x00 switches do full translational bridging for FDDI. I
haven't found any networking scenario that doesn't work when mixing and
matching and translating between different networking media in one of
those switches.
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 12:38:19PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 10/10/2013 10:35 AM, Brian Hechinger wrote:
The other two: the DECbridge 900, which plugged into the 900 series
modular enclosure. It's about the side of a 400 page hardcover
book, FDDI to 6 Ethernet ports, 60,000 packets per second using a
MC68040 at 25 MHz. I'm still proud of that. (I wrote the "fast
path" packet forwarding firmware.)
Neat!
That's not "neat"...that's AWESOME. Just pointing it out..
Ok, yes. :)
Then there is the Gigaswitch, a large modular chassis with lots of
line cards, some FDDI, some Ethernet, possibly some with other
stuff I don't remember.
I think this is the one I had. Big modular thing. Maybe (and going
by really fuzzy memory here) 8U high?
A GigaSwitch is a lot more than 8U high. Try nearly half a rack.
Yeah, I'm starting to believe I only had half of one. Good thing I never
tried to use it. :)
-brian
On Thu, 10 Oct 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 10/10/2013 03:04 PM, Peter Lothberg wrote:
FDDI/CDDI is a dual ring token ring bus, with 4470 MTU byte packets,
it has 802.-- frames. DEC had a mode where you turned the token off
and used it for ptp full duplex.
I didn't know about the ptp thing. That's nifty.
A cisco FDDI-PA can talk both in a 7500 or old 7200 (the VXR don't
support the FDDI cards but the VIP does ).
About that, Peter...is there ANY way to get a FDDI PAM to run in a
7206VXR? Or will it just plain not work, ever?
I thought PAs were compatible across all chassis? Maybe in a VXR with an STD NPE?
Or is it the PCI bus on the backplane that prevents them from working?
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 12:36:47PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 10/10/2013 10:29 AM, Brian Hechinger wrote:
All this talk of FDDI makes me want to go get the 4000/500s. I have a
pair of QBus FDDI cards. I suppose I would have to make the Octane a
router between FDDI and ethernet. :)
Are any of those 4000/500s mine? ;)
Nope. I picked these up from Villanova University several years ago.
I was interviewing at a place recently and the subject of VAXen came up.
Interviewer: "I remember have an account on a pair of 4000/500s in a
cluster when I was at Villanova years ago."
Me: "Those machines are at my house now!"
Interviewer: "NO WAY!"
I had quite a few machines up
here in your old place at one point. Don't worry, I'd only be after one
of them, and even that is low-priority at this point.
Going and rescuing all that stuff is something I really want to do one
day. Not anytime soon though. :(
-brian
On 10.10.2013 18:27, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Oct 10, 2013, at 10:53 AM, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> wrote:
On 10/10/2013 15:29, Brian Hechinger wrote:
All this talk of FDDI makes me want to go get the 4000/500s. I have a
pair of QBus FDDI cards. I suppose I would have to make the Octane a
router between FDDI and ethernet. :)
-brian
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:26:23PM +0000, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
If you have SAS NICs. you can connect a pair of them (S to S).
Thanks for all the info guys, I knew you'd be one hell of a knowledgeable lot!
If I understand what you are saying correctly, if I have NODE3 with the Turbochannel FDDI card (copper based) and a.n.other (call it NODE2 for arguments sake) ALPHA with a PCI FDDI Copper card I could wire them too together directly?
If that were so I would presumably need to do some routing within NODE2 to allow NODE3 access to network traffic if NODE2 was also connected to the 'great wide world' via ethernet.
Is there anything I'm missing in this picture?
You have the picture. You'll need a crossover (not straight through) cable. I went looking for data on the pinouts. It turns out the pins used by FDDI TP-PMD ("Twisted pair physical medium dependent layer") are distinct from 100Base-T, but a crossover cable that has all four pairs wired should serve. According to http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/national/_appNotes/AN-0965…, pins 1/2 are the transmit pair, 7/8 the receive pair.
So a SAS connection is like a point to point Ethernet connection: exactly two stations. Yes, that means that one (or both) endpoint needs to be either a bridge or a router for you to reach other nodes.
Earlier there was mention of the DEC full duplex mode. You can turn that on for this topology, if you want to. It may not be worth the trouble; the token ring overhead is pretty modest for short connections.
paul
.
DEC used to have the BN26S-xx cable for FDDI twisted pair connections.
It has two pairs which are crossed and the pinout is 12----78
Kari
