HECnet June 2012

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38 participants
612 discussions

DECnet User Mode Router - Encapsulation Formats

by robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com

-----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Paul_Koning at Dell.com Sent: 23 June 2012 01:49 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet User Mode Router - Encapsulation Formats On Jun 22, 2012, at 6:11 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner- hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Paul_Koning at Dell.com Sent: 22 June 2012 22:25 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet User Mode Router - Encapsulation Formats On Jun 22, 2012, at 4:07 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: DDCMP over some kind of serial line? Would need appropriate hardware and driver code to work against that. DDCMP over sync, yes. But DDCMP also works on an async line, and that just requires protocol code that can talk to a raw mode TTY device. That would work for what I need -- I have async DDCMP on my PRO-380 running RSTS, and in fact it's a standard feature of some of the PDP11 DECnet products. (I'm not sure if it was ever official in DECnet/E, but the machinery is there in the latest versions of the kernel.) paul Hmmm, so if we can use async serial then we have a chance to add that to the router once I have had a chance to do the main part. It would be good to do something like that. I don't know enough about DDCMP yet to know what the implications are (can it work with a Version 2 router for example?). Regards Rob Version 2? Do you mean Level 2? No I mean version 2, as in this spec here: http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/decnet/route20.txt

12 years, 5 months

RSTS on a Pro, was Re: [HECnet] DECnet User Mode Router - Encapsulation Formats

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 06/22/2012 05:33 PM, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: It's a midnight project, done while at DEC but not official. I did it first on RSTS 9.6, and in fact built a set of 3 or so floppies that can be used, along with a stock microRSTS kit, to install that on a Pro. I subsequently ported it to RSTS/E 10.1 but didn't repackage it as I did the first time. Wow wow wow!! This really makes my day! Yes, new drivers for sure. New interrupt handling, too. I figured! BTW, if you can write the correct bootstrap, the stock RSTS 9.6 INIT.SYS will boot on a Pro, because the PRO supports bits made it into the official sources as far as the init code goes. If you do, it will identify the machine type as a "GPK-350" or "GPK-380". :-) Wow, I never knew this! What's missing is CNA support (Ethernet). The chip used on that card sucks quite severely, and I've never had enough energy to write the driver. Urr? Doesn't the CNA use an Am7990 "Lance" chip? As I recall that isn't too bad to program. I must be misremembering what chip it uses..? But I have disk, and display, and serial ports including the obscure 4-port card, DDCMP support in both sync and async mode... Wow, that is fantastic! (I keep saying "wow"! ;)) Umm...are you willing to share that stuff? =) I run RSTS 10.1 on many of my PDP-11s; I'd LOVE to run it on my Pro-350! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

12 years, 5 months

DECnet User Mode Router - Encapsulation Formats

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 06/22/2012 08:48 PM, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: Hmmm, so if we can use async serial then we have a chance to add that to the router once I have had a chance to do the main part. It would be good to do something like that. I don't know enough about DDCMP yet to know what the implications are (can it work with a Version 2 router for example?). Version 2? Do you mean Level 2? DDCMP works in DECnet phase 1 through 4, I should remember about 5 (a.k.a., DECnet/OSI) but I don't. It's another datalink type, different from Ethernet, partly because it doesn't have addresses (it's point to point) and partly because the headers are different ("short" rather than "long" headers). But much of it is the same: routing exchanges work the same, for example. It's all spelled out in detail in the routing layer spec. The DDCMP protocol itself is in the DDCMP spec. My first exposure to its details was when I read the spec to implement the RSTS driver, and the spec is good enough that I could simply do what it says and end up with code that works. (Most of the DECnet specs are that good, actually.) It's not exactly a hard protocol; maybe a few thousand lines of assembly language code, so probably a few hundred if done in C. The point to point specific aspects of the routing layer would actually be the larger part, though not all that much larger, either. If it's that similar to DECnet over Ethernet, I would respectfully submit that the correct way to implement this would be to move as much of the DECnet code as possible into a datalink type-independent layer and have datalink layers below that, with a consistent API that serves as an abstraction layer. Having the ability to route to DDCMP-over-async-connected hosts would be really, really nice! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

12 years, 5 months

DECnet User Mode Router - Encapsulation Formats

by Paul_Koning＠Dell.com

On Jun 22, 2012, at 6:11 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Paul_Koning at Dell.com Sent: 22 June 2012 22:25 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet User Mode Router - Encapsulation Formats On Jun 22, 2012, at 4:07 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: DDCMP over some kind of serial line? Would need appropriate hardware and driver code to work against that. DDCMP over sync, yes. But DDCMP also works on an async line, and that just requires protocol code that can talk to a raw mode TTY device. That would work for what I need -- I have async DDCMP on my PRO-380 running RSTS, and in fact it's a standard feature of some of the PDP11 DECnet products. (I'm not sure if it was ever official in DECnet/E, but the machinery is there in the latest versions of the kernel.) paul Hmmm, so if we can use async serial then we have a chance to add that to the router once I have had a chance to do the main part. It would be good to do something like that. I don't know enough about DDCMP yet to know what the implications are (can it work with a Version 2 router for example?). Regards Rob Version 2? Do you mean Level 2? DDCMP works in DECnet phase 1 through 4, I should remember about 5 (a.k.a., DECnet/OSI) but I don't. It's another datalink type, different from Ethernet, partly because it doesn't have addresses (it's point to point) and partly because the headers are different ("short" rather than "long" headers). But much of it is the same: routing exchanges work the same, for example. It's all spelled out in detail in the routing layer spec. The DDCMP protocol itself is in the DDCMP spec. My first exposure to its details was when I read the spec to implement the RSTS driver, and the spec is good enough that I could simply do what it says and end up with code that works. (Most of the DECnet specs are that good, actually.) It's not exactly a hard protocol; maybe a few thousand lines of assembly language code, so probably a few hundred if done in C. The point to point specific aspects of the routing layer would actually be the larger part, though not all that much larger, either. paul

12 years, 5 months

Psilo status?

by HECNET＠beyondthepale.ie

Peter is this readable? Hans Sorry to be jumping into this late but I've been away. I am confused as to the source of the problem. I read the hecnet list using VMS Mail and I therefore get to see all the headers in their gorey detail. I've never seen any mail from the list arrive with base64 encoding. I've had a quick look through the headers for all the hecnet mail for the last few days. I find some mails have Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT and others have Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT (including some that are not from Hans). Just one mail (the HTML section of a mail from Jordi Guillaumes i Pons) had Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable and none at all had Content-transfer-encoding: base64. In particular, the ones from Hans do not arrive here with Content-transfer-encoding: base64 I can't see anything special about the mails from Hans that would be causing those and only those to result in difficulties on a 7bit only system. Perhaps a mail transfer agent processing mail for the system experiencing the problem is making incorrect assumptions about some of the mails going through it and somewhat arbitrarily deciding to convert some of them to base64? (I do see some headers such as X-Spam-Status: containing references to base64 but this should have no bearing on how the mail is processed.) Regards, Peter Coghlan.

12 years, 5 months

DECnet User Mode Router - Encapsulation Formats

by robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com

-----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Paul_Koning at Dell.com Sent: 22 June 2012 22:25 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet User Mode Router - Encapsulation Formats On Jun 22, 2012, at 4:07 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: DDCMP over some kind of serial line? Would need appropriate hardware and driver code to work against that. DDCMP over sync, yes. But DDCMP also works on an async line, and that just requires protocol code that can talk to a raw mode TTY device. That would work for what I need -- I have async DDCMP on my PRO-380 running RSTS, and in fact it's a standard feature of some of the PDP11 DECnet products. (I'm not sure if it was ever official in DECnet/E, but the machinery is there in the latest versions of the kernel.) paul Hmmm, so if we can use async serial then we have a chance to add that to the router once I have had a chance to do the main part. It would be good to do something like that. I don't know enough about DDCMP yet to know what the implications are (can it work with a Version 2 router for example?). Regards Rob

12 years, 5 months

RSTS on a Pro, was Re: [HECnet] DECnet User Mode Router - Encapsulation Formats

by Paul_Koning＠Dell.com

It's a midnight project, done while at DEC but not official. I did it first on RSTS 9.6, and in fact built a set of 3 or so floppies that can be used, along with a stock microRSTS kit, to install that on a Pro. I subsequently ported it to RSTS/E 10.1 but didn't repackage it as I did the first time. Yes, new drivers for sure. New interrupt handling, too. BTW, if you can write the correct bootstrap, the stock RSTS 9.6 INIT.SYS will boot on a Pro, because the PRO supports bits made it into the official sources as far as the init code goes. If you do, it will identify the machine type as a "GPK-350" or "GPK-380". :-) What's missing is CNA support (Ethernet). The chip used on that card sucks quite severely, and I've never had enough energy to write the driver. But I have disk, and display, and serial ports including the obscure 4-port card, DDCMP support in both sync and async mode... paul On Jun 22, 2012, at 5:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: On 06/22/2012 05:25 PM, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: DDCMP over sync, yes. But DDCMP also works on an async line, and that just requires protocol code that can talk to a raw mode TTY device. That would work for what I need -- I have async DDCMP on my PRO-380 running RSTS, and in fact it's a standard feature of some of the PDP11 DECnet products. (I'm not sure if it was ever official in DECnet/E, but the machinery is there in the latest versions of the kernel.) Umm, hang on...RSTS on a Pro-380? I didn't think RSTS had drivers for the MFM controller in there, and I'm pretty sure the console I/O is very different as well. Please tell me more. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

12 years, 5 months

RSTS on a Pro, was Re: [HECnet] DECnet User Mode Router - Encapsulation Formats

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 06/22/2012 05:25 PM, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: DDCMP over sync, yes. But DDCMP also works on an async line, and that just requires protocol code that can talk to a raw mode TTY device. That would work for what I need -- I have async DDCMP on my PRO-380 running RSTS, and in fact it's a standard feature of some of the PDP11 DECnet products. (I'm not sure if it was ever official in DECnet/E, but the machinery is there in the latest versions of the kernel.) Umm, hang on...RSTS on a Pro-380? I didn't think RSTS had drivers for the MFM controller in there, and I'm pretty sure the console I/O is very different as well. Please tell me more. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

12 years, 5 months

DECnet User Mode Router - Encapsulation Formats

by Paul_Koning＠Dell.com

On Jun 22, 2012, at 4:07 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: DDCMP over some kind of serial line? Would need appropriate hardware and driver code to work against that. DDCMP over sync, yes. But DDCMP also works on an async line, and that just requires protocol code that can talk to a raw mode TTY device. That would work for what I need -- I have async DDCMP on my PRO-380 running RSTS, and in fact it's a standard feature of some of the PDP11 DECnet products. (I'm not sure if it was ever official in DECnet/E, but the machinery is there in the latest versions of the kernel.) paul

12 years, 5 months

DECnet User Mode Router - Encapsulation Formats

by robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com

-----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt Sent: 22 June 2012 20:27 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: RE: [HECnet] DECnet User Mode Router - Encapsulation Formats -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner- hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: 22 June 2012 19:34 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet User Mode Router - Encapsulation Formats On 06/22/2012 02:31 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: I am making a little progress on a user mode DECnet router that will run on Raspberry Pi and on Windows. There is still a long way to go, but I want to get the basic design right in terms on the network interfacing. Can someone tell me how Cisco and Multinet encapsulate DECnet packets sent over the internet? Ciscos can encapsulate DECnet within either GRE or L2TP. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA I hope GRE and L2TP aren't too complex. It *looks* like GRE can be transported over UDP. L2TP looks a bit more complex, but I have skimmed the Wikipedia page for all of 15 seconds so I may have missed something. Regards Rob Sorry, just realised that is silly, if I am correct GRE is another protocol type at the same level as UDP. I was confusing IP with UDP! Regards Rob

12 years, 5 months

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HECnet June 2012