On 2012-12-22 00:17, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On 21 Dec 2012, at 18:14, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2012-12-21 21:48, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Dec 21, 2012, at 3:17 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2012-12-21 21:01, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Dec 21, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
...
The whole thing is sad/silly for both Lego and DEC - RJxx was/is a fine standard.
Why did they have to mess with it? (Don't answer that I know - why but
it was things like that that contributed to DEC's undoing IMHO).
My former boss liked to refer to Ken Olsen as the "chief connector architect". KO was really good at interfering at the wrong time for the wrong reason.
The first DECserver-100 was a fairly small box (about the size of two laptops sitting on top of each other), with some sort of connector I don't remember for the terminal ports. Not a typical one -- I think it was some sort of 8-pin connector.
When the product was ready to ship, Ken looked at it and decided it needed to be redesigned. It needed to go into a larger box, and it had to use connectors that look like phone connectors but were modified to be incompatible with anything ever seen before. And so it was done. I have seen a prototype of the result: the earlier box minus the top cover, sitting inside of the final DECserver-100 box, with jumper cables going between the original connectors and the MMJ connectors.
Sigh. Among the gross management blunders of KO, this is undoubtedly a fairly small one, but it's illustrative.
Yeah. The DECserver 100/200/300 are truly things of air. There is a single board in them, and so much space it's ridiculous. However, the DS100 have DB25 connectors. The DS200 came in two variants. Either DB25 or MMJ, while the DS300 is MMJ only.
But they are a bit larger that two laptops, I'd say (looking at my DS300 right next to me right now). Might you be thinking of something else?
Maybe I have the model numbers wrong. I was talking about the first DECserver.
Yes, the ones customers saw are bigger than a laptop -- they are rack-mount boxes, 2U or so. The laptop-sized device I mentioned is one that didn't ship because KO insisted on having its box size and connector type redesigned. So you never saw that one outside of DEC.
http://rainwillow.com/media/2011/data-pbx/DECServer200.png shows the DS200 with DB25 connectors. The DS100 looks the same. Rackmount sized, 2U sounds about right.
But if KO changed the connectors it can't have been the DS100. I thought the DS100 might have been the first one, but then again, I also remember something like the DS550, which was based on a PDP-11 and which was modular, with a qbus.. (I might remember the designation wrong.) They were before I think, but the design and concept was a bit different than the DS100.
Hmmmmmm. Would one accept random qbus expansion cards? ;)
Yes, except for the fact that the box ran an embedded OS which did not look for, or expect random Qbus cards. The CPU was a J11. I think I even have one around somewhere. Pretty much the same as an 11/53, but with other boot roms.
Looking at Wikipedia, it would appear the DS100 came before the 550. However, the 550 could support up to 128 terminals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DECserver
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On 21 Dec 2012, at 18:14, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2012-12-21 21:48, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Dec 21, 2012, at 3:17 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2012-12-21 21:01, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Dec 21, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
...
The whole thing is sad/silly for both Lego and DEC - RJxx was/is a fine standard.
Why did they have to mess with it? (Don't answer that I know - why but
it was things like that that contributed to DEC's undoing IMHO).
My former boss liked to refer to Ken Olsen as the "chief connector architect". KO was really good at interfering at the wrong time for the wrong reason.
The first DECserver-100 was a fairly small box (about the size of two laptops sitting on top of each other), with some sort of connector I don't remember for the terminal ports. Not a typical one -- I think it was some sort of 8-pin connector.
When the product was ready to ship, Ken looked at it and decided it needed to be redesigned. It needed to go into a larger box, and it had to use connectors that look like phone connectors but were modified to be incompatible with anything ever seen before. And so it was done. I have seen a prototype of the result: the earlier box minus the top cover, sitting inside of the final DECserver-100 box, with jumper cables going between the original connectors and the MMJ connectors.
Sigh. Among the gross management blunders of KO, this is undoubtedly a fairly small one, but it's illustrative.
Yeah. The DECserver 100/200/300 are truly things of air. There is a single board in them, and so much space it's ridiculous. However, the DS100 have DB25 connectors. The DS200 came in two variants. Either DB25 or MMJ, while the DS300 is MMJ only.
But they are a bit larger that two laptops, I'd say (looking at my DS300 right next to me right now). Might you be thinking of something else?
Maybe I have the model numbers wrong. I was talking about the first DECserver.
Yes, the ones customers saw are bigger than a laptop -- they are rack-mount boxes, 2U or so. The laptop-sized device I mentioned is one that didn't ship because KO insisted on having its box size and connector type redesigned. So you never saw that one outside of DEC.
http://rainwillow.com/media/2011/data-pbx/DECServer200.png shows the DS200 with DB25 connectors. The DS100 looks the same. Rackmount sized, 2U sounds about right.
But if KO changed the connectors it can't have been the DS100. I thought the DS100 might have been the first one, but then again, I also remember something like the DS550, which was based on a PDP-11 and which was modular, with a qbus.. (I might remember the designation wrong.) They were before I think, but the design and concept was a bit different than the DS100.
Hmmmmmm. Would one accept random qbus expansion cards? ;)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On 2012-12-21 21:48, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Dec 21, 2012, at 3:17 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2012-12-21 21:01, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Dec 21, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
...
The whole thing is sad/silly for both Lego and DEC - RJxx was/is a fine standard.
Why did they have to mess with it? (Don't answer that I know - why but
it was things like that that contributed to DEC's undoing IMHO).
My former boss liked to refer to Ken Olsen as the "chief connector architect". KO was really good at interfering at the wrong time for the wrong reason.
The first DECserver-100 was a fairly small box (about the size of two laptops sitting on top of each other), with some sort of connector I don't remember for the terminal ports. Not a typical one -- I think it was some sort of 8-pin connector.
When the product was ready to ship, Ken looked at it and decided it needed to be redesigned. It needed to go into a larger box, and it had to use connectors that look like phone connectors but were modified to be incompatible with anything ever seen before. And so it was done. I have seen a prototype of the result: the earlier box minus the top cover, sitting inside of the final DECserver-100 box, with jumper cables going between the original connectors and the MMJ connectors.
Sigh. Among the gross management blunders of KO, this is undoubtedly a fairly small one, but it's illustrative.
Yeah. The DECserver 100/200/300 are truly things of air. There is a single board in them, and so much space it's ridiculous. However, the DS100 have DB25 connectors. The DS200 came in two variants. Either DB25 or MMJ, while the DS300 is MMJ only.
But they are a bit larger that two laptops, I'd say (looking at my DS300 right next to me right now). Might you be thinking of something else?
Maybe I have the model numbers wrong. I was talking about the first DECserver.
Yes, the ones customers saw are bigger than a laptop -- they are rack-mount boxes, 2U or so. The laptop-sized device I mentioned is one that didn't ship because KO insisted on having its box size and connector type redesigned. So you never saw that one outside of DEC.
http://rainwillow.com/media/2011/data-pbx/DECServer200.png shows the DS200 with DB25 connectors. The DS100 looks the same. Rackmount sized, 2U sounds about right.
But if KO changed the connectors it can't have been the DS100. I thought the DS100 might have been the first one, but then again, I also remember something like the DS550, which was based on a PDP-11 and which was modular, with a qbus.. (I might remember the designation wrong.) They were before I think, but the design and concept was a bit different than the DS100.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Dec 21, 2012, at 3:17 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2012-12-21 21:01, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Dec 21, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
...
The whole thing is sad/silly for both Lego and DEC - RJxx was/is a fine standard.
Why did they have to mess with it? (Don't answer that I know - why but
it was things like that that contributed to DEC's undoing IMHO).
My former boss liked to refer to Ken Olsen as the "chief connector architect". KO was really good at interfering at the wrong time for the wrong reason.
The first DECserver-100 was a fairly small box (about the size of two laptops sitting on top of each other), with some sort of connector I don't remember for the terminal ports. Not a typical one -- I think it was some sort of 8-pin connector.
When the product was ready to ship, Ken looked at it and decided it needed to be redesigned. It needed to go into a larger box, and it had to use connectors that look like phone connectors but were modified to be incompatible with anything ever seen before. And so it was done. I have seen a prototype of the result: the earlier box minus the top cover, sitting inside of the final DECserver-100 box, with jumper cables going between the original connectors and the MMJ connectors.
Sigh. Among the gross management blunders of KO, this is undoubtedly a fairly small one, but it's illustrative.
Yeah. The DECserver 100/200/300 are truly things of air. There is a single board in them, and so much space it's ridiculous. However, the DS100 have DB25 connectors. The DS200 came in two variants. Either DB25 or MMJ, while the DS300 is MMJ only.
But they are a bit larger that two laptops, I'd say (looking at my DS300 right next to me right now). Might you be thinking of something else?
Maybe I have the model numbers wrong. I was talking about the first DECserver.
Yes, the ones customers saw are bigger than a laptop -- they are rack-mount boxes, 2U or so. The laptop-sized device I mentioned is one that didn't ship because KO insisted on having its box size and connector type redesigned. So you never saw that one outside of DEC.
paul
Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> writes:
Sorry to spam everyone, I tried to take this off line but Brian a
message to <system at tmesis.com> bounced...
No idea, probably because mine is el cheapo. I also have a really good
Ideal RJ45/RJ11 based crimper which is what I used for CAT6 cables.
But for this, it's not Paladin -- its off brand/non-name I probably got
from China -> but I might have found it some place here in the Boston
area like Eli's (a true geek holy place for non-Bostonians) or maybe
Frys on a trip to left coat..
At some point I wanted/needed a MMJ and I found this one with a bunch of
connectors cheap (my memory was it was $10-15 for crimper and some ends
and they were trying to get rid of it). Since, I had 6 conductor
"silver statin" on spools at home - figured it was worth the a few bucks
to try it. It ended up being good enough for what I wanted.
A couple of year later, I had to start hacking on Lego I dug it up, I
bought the Lrgo male plugs from somebody I found via google (maybe 3-4
years ago). So, I took the MMJ tool apart and hacked it. I do not
remember it being very hard.
The whole thing is sad/silly for both Lego and DEC - RJxx was/is a fine
standard. Why did they have to mess with it? (Don't answer that I know
- why but it was things like that that contributed to DEC's undoing
IMHO).
Anyway, my point was and still is that "google in your friend" and much
of this is very findable.
About 15+ years ago, I had one customer who decided that MMJ connectors and
cables were too expensive. So, they opted for a similar system devised by
a company called Mod-Tap. At least, that's the logo that was on all of the
connectors and cables. This comany also had a telephone system that used
RJ12 connectors. Would you like to know how many terminals and DECservers
I replaced at this company when their employees plugged in the wrong RJ12
terminated cables into their phone system??? I'd happily keep all the MMJ
connector in a scenario such as that. They were far far cheaper than the
replacement terminals and DECservers. DEC, of course, didn't mind it one
bit. ;)
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
On 2012-12-21 21:01, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Dec 21, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
...
The whole thing is sad/silly for both Lego and DEC - RJxx was/is a fine standard.
Why did they have to mess with it? (Don't answer that I know - why but
it was things like that that contributed to DEC's undoing IMHO).
My former boss liked to refer to Ken Olsen as the "chief connector architect". KO was really good at interfering at the wrong time for the wrong reason.
The first DECserver-100 was a fairly small box (about the size of two laptops sitting on top of each other), with some sort of connector I don't remember for the terminal ports. Not a typical one -- I think it was some sort of 8-pin connector.
When the product was ready to ship, Ken looked at it and decided it needed to be redesigned. It needed to go into a larger box, and it had to use connectors that look like phone connectors but were modified to be incompatible with anything ever seen before. And so it was done. I have seen a prototype of the result: the earlier box minus the top cover, sitting inside of the final DECserver-100 box, with jumper cables going between the original connectors and the MMJ connectors.
Sigh. Among the gross management blunders of KO, this is undoubtedly a fairly small one, but it's illustrative.
Yeah. The DECserver 100/200/300 are truly things of air. There is a single board in them, and so much space it's ridiculous. However, the DS100 have DB25 connectors. The DS200 came in two variants. Either DB25 or MMJ, while the DS300 is MMJ only.
But they are a bit larger that two laptops, I'd say (looking at my DS300 right next to me right now). Might you be thinking of something else?
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On 2012-12-21 19:38, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Dec 21, 2012, at 1:33 PM, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:
sampsa at mac.com writes:
Clem,
Mark Benson has already volunteered to make the cables at cost - I just
need to know if the console cables are wired straight across or
crossover?
DECconnects are a flat 6-conductor cable. The MMJ plugs are attached such
that the same side of the flat cable is inserted into each MMJ plug. This
provides an implicit signal crossover. So, if your 6 conductor cable had
White, Black, Red, Green, Yellow, Gray conductors, one side would show the
colors as I've listed them and the other side would be Gray, Yellow, Green,
Red, Black and White.
I thought I've seen straight-through version also, which you can make by having one of the two connectors "upside down".
Yes, I have a couple of cables crimped like that. I suspect the reason is that people installed fixed jacks in some places and wired them wrong. :-(
Annoying, but there it is.
(And yes, I also have a tool, and connectors, but no cable right now, as well as having all that stuff in Sweden, while I'm in Switzerland.)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Except the obvious problem that they won't work in DEC equipment...
Johnny
On 2012-12-21 15:55, Clem Cole wrote:
Good point, I took a DEC tool and turned the plate around for Mind
Storms hacking. But my point is that the tools and plugs are findable
- as they are even on amazon.
On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 9:19 AM, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-
<system at tmesis.com <mailto:system at tmesis.com>> wrote:
Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com <mailto:clemc at ccc.com>> writes:
>--e89a8f8396e3415d4a04d15d84f3 Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>I would suspect you should be able to find them in Europe as LEGO uses
>the MMJ connector for Mindstorms (which is a pain in the neck).
Amazon
>carries the tool and plugs, so it's easy to make them. The tool is
>$40-60 US and the plugs cost under a dollar (and I have seen them
as low
>as 4 for a dollar). What is hard to find is the female connector, I
>have not find a reliable source, so I find myself making custom MMJ to
>RJ11 cables for the kids when they want to make a custom interface to
>connect to their robots.
Doesn't the LEGO's version of the MMJ have the tab on the right?
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker
VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Dec 21, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
...
The whole thing is sad/silly for both Lego and DEC - RJxx was/is a fine standard.
Why did they have to mess with it? (Don't answer that I know - why but
it was things like that that contributed to DEC's undoing IMHO).
My former boss liked to refer to Ken Olsen as the "chief connector architect". KO was really good at interfering at the wrong time for the wrong reason.
The first DECserver-100 was a fairly small box (about the size of two laptops sitting on top of each other), with some sort of connector I don't remember for the terminal ports. Not a typical one -- I think it was some sort of 8-pin connector.
When the product was ready to ship, Ken looked at it and decided it needed to be redesigned. It needed to go into a larger box, and it had to use connectors that look like phone connectors but were modified to be incompatible with anything ever seen before. And so it was done. I have seen a prototype of the result: the earlier box minus the top cover, sitting inside of the final DECserver-100 box, with jumper cables going between the original connectors and the MMJ connectors.
Sigh. Among the gross management blunders of KO, this is undoubtedly a fairly small one, but it's illustrative.
paul
Sorry to spam everyone, I tried to take this off line but Brian a message to <system at tmesis.com> bounced...
No idea, probably because mine is el cheapo. I also have a really
good Ideal RJ45/RJ11 based crimper which is what I used for CAT6 cables.
But for this, it's not Paladin -- its off brand/non-name I probably got from China ->
but I might have found it some place here in the Boston area like Eli's
(a true geek holy place for non-Bostonians) or maybe Frys on a trip to left coat..
At some point I wanted/needed a MMJ and I found this one with a bunch
of connectors cheap (my memory was it was $10-15 for crimper and some ends
and they were trying to get rid of it). Since, I had 6 conductor "silver statin" on spools at home - figured it
was worth the a few bucks to try it. It ended up being good enough for what I
wanted.
A couple of year later, I had to start hacking on Lego I dug it up, I
bought the Lrgo male plugs from somebody I found via google (maybe 3-4 years ago).
So, I took the MMJ tool apart and hacked it. I do not remember it being very hard.
The whole thing is sad/silly for both Lego and DEC - RJxx was/is a fine standard.
Why did they have to mess with it? (Don't answer that I know - why but
it was things like that that contributed to DEC's undoing IMHO).
Anyway, my point was and still is that "google in your friend" and much of this is very findable.
Clem
On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system at tmesis.com> wrote:
Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> writes:
>Good point, I took a DEC tool and turned the plate around for Mind
>Storms hacking. But my point is that the tools and plugs are findable
I have a Paladin crimper with interchangeable dies for many different types
of connectors and I cannot see how you "turn around" the MMJ die.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
