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Another sillyness. More information in the nodename database on MIM.

by robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com

-----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner- hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Robert Jarratt Sent: 16 May 2013 22:52 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: RE: [HECnet] Another sillyness. More information in the nodename database on MIM. -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner- hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: 16 May 2013 17:29 To: hecnet Subject: [HECnet] Another sillyness. More information in the nodename database on MIM. This is a totally volontary thing. I've finally come to the point where I think that there are a few more pieces of data on nodes that would be nice/useful to have from time to time. So I've extended the nodename database on MIM for this. The fields that I have added are CPU, OS and location. You can see an example of values by going to http://madame.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet?node=mim So, feel free to submit data to me for nodes you know. Or look up information. Or suggest interfaces that you'd like to get to extract this information, and I'll try and comply. :-) Johnny The following are always on: 5.0123 A5RTR DECnet User Mode Router running on Windows Server 2003 5.8 VAX780 SIMH VMS 5.4 on Raspberry Pi The following only run occasionally, I have more but the details are not to hand. 5.10 MICRO1 MicroVAX II VMS 5.4 5.24 MICRO4 MicroVAX II MicroVMS 4.6 5.20 VAX6 VAX 4000-200 running VMS 5.4 5.2 VLC1 VAXstation 4000 VLC running VMS 7.3 Regards Rob Forgot to add, all my nodes are in Stockport, UK. Regards Rob

12 years, 1 month

Re: TOPS-10 and DECnet Progress Update

by b4＠gewt.net

On Thu, 17 May 2013, Gregg Levine wrote: On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2013, Gregg Levine wrote: On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 10:07 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2013, Gregg Levine wrote: On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2013, Paul_Koning wrote: On May 16, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2013-05-16 22:16, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons wrote: Al 15/05/13 22:52, En/na Cory Smelosky ha escrit: What does it use for network device? It's using the NI right now, as it's KLH10. Speaking of devices... has anyone been succesful configuring KLH10 to use a tap interface? I have not been able to do that, so I have to share the host real ethernet, thus making not posible to run two instances of KLH10 in the same host (unless I run those inside a VM, which is a little bit overkill). Oh, and a weird thing... I have a simulated TOPS-10 under KLH10 with DECNET up and running... but it can talk only to its adjacent nodes. It seems like the routing node (a simh 780 running VMS 4.7) does not route traffic (in either direction) when the destination or the source is the KLH10... Weird. Are you sure it talks ok with the routing node? I mean, have you actually used any protocol to test, or just noted the adjacency up messages? The reason I ask is that the adjacency up messages are not really enough to be sure that the link really is working. One thing to remember is that a router adjacency "up" transition does not make anything reachable (except on DECnet/E which doesn't quite do things according to the spec). Only when the routing messages are exchanged after the adjacency comes up is anything marked as reachable. Yes, that includes the neighbor router, by spec (this is the part that DECnet/E does differently). paul One amusing issue: I kept getting adjacency up notices about my TOPS-10 install...but no down notices. ;) -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments Hello! My doing. Now how come you, Cory, didn't react regarding my description of how your network for the TOPS-10 setup was arranged? Or that of stirring in the monster from the WB cartoons? I may have missed that email. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments Hello! Oh dear. Search back to the beginning of the thread, when you made the announcement in a completely new one. ----- Odd. Now why is that red guy in a monster suit and wearing cheap sneakers pounding on that terminal again? For some really weird reason that has gotten the plot of Electric Dreams stuck in my head....I blame that. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments Hello! And you are referencing what there? That's only gossamer, one of B. Bunny's favorite monsters. He's also running TWC in Columbus OH. Electric Dreams was a movie involving a love triange between a man, woman, and computer. Ahhh. Right. I've forgottem some of that stuff. ;) ---- **Suddenly without warning the watcher in the dark by the windows leans closer. And the one being watched faints, as it turns out the individual was being watched by the Doctor himself.** ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments

12 years, 1 month

Re: TOPS-10 and DECnet Progress Update

by gregg.drwho8＠gmail.com

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2013, Gregg Levine wrote: On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 10:07 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2013, Gregg Levine wrote: On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2013, Paul_Koning wrote: On May 16, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2013-05-16 22:16, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons wrote: Al 15/05/13 22:52, En/na Cory Smelosky ha escrit: What does it use for network device? It's using the NI right now, as it's KLH10. Speaking of devices... has anyone been succesful configuring KLH10 to use a tap interface? I have not been able to do that, so I have to share the host real ethernet, thus making not posible to run two instances of KLH10 in the same host (unless I run those inside a VM, which is a little bit overkill). Oh, and a weird thing... I have a simulated TOPS-10 under KLH10 with DECNET up and running... but it can talk only to its adjacent nodes. It seems like the routing node (a simh 780 running VMS 4.7) does not route traffic (in either direction) when the destination or the source is the KLH10... Weird. Are you sure it talks ok with the routing node? I mean, have you actually used any protocol to test, or just noted the adjacency up messages? The reason I ask is that the adjacency up messages are not really enough to be sure that the link really is working. One thing to remember is that a router adjacency "up" transition does not make anything reachable (except on DECnet/E which doesn't quite do things according to the spec). Only when the routing messages are exchanged after the adjacency comes up is anything marked as reachable. Yes, that includes the neighbor router, by spec (this is the part that DECnet/E does differently). paul One amusing issue: I kept getting adjacency up notices about my TOPS-10 install...but no down notices. ;) -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments Hello! My doing. Now how come you, Cory, didn't react regarding my description of how your network for the TOPS-10 setup was arranged? Or that of stirring in the monster from the WB cartoons? I may have missed that email. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments Hello! Oh dear. Search back to the beginning of the thread, when you made the announcement in a completely new one. ----- Odd. Now why is that red guy in a monster suit and wearing cheap sneakers pounding on that terminal again? For some really weird reason that has gotten the plot of Electric Dreams stuck in my head....I blame that. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments Hello! And you are referencing what there? That's only gossamer, one of B. Bunny's favorite monsters. He's also running TWC in Columbus OH. ---- **Suddenly without warning the watcher in the dark by the windows leans closer. And the one being watched faints, as it turns out the individual was being watched by the Doctor himself.** ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

12 years, 1 month

Re: TOPS-10 and DECnet Progress Update

by b4＠gewt.net

On Thu, 17 May 2013, Gregg Levine wrote: On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 10:07 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2013, Gregg Levine wrote: On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2013, Paul_Koning wrote: On May 16, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2013-05-16 22:16, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons wrote: Al 15/05/13 22:52, En/na Cory Smelosky ha escrit: What does it use for network device? It's using the NI right now, as it's KLH10. Speaking of devices... has anyone been succesful configuring KLH10 to use a tap interface? I have not been able to do that, so I have to share the host real ethernet, thus making not posible to run two instances of KLH10 in the same host (unless I run those inside a VM, which is a little bit overkill). Oh, and a weird thing... I have a simulated TOPS-10 under KLH10 with DECNET up and running... but it can talk only to its adjacent nodes. It seems like the routing node (a simh 780 running VMS 4.7) does not route traffic (in either direction) when the destination or the source is the KLH10... Weird. Are you sure it talks ok with the routing node? I mean, have you actually used any protocol to test, or just noted the adjacency up messages? The reason I ask is that the adjacency up messages are not really enough to be sure that the link really is working. One thing to remember is that a router adjacency "up" transition does not make anything reachable (except on DECnet/E which doesn't quite do things according to the spec). Only when the routing messages are exchanged after the adjacency comes up is anything marked as reachable. Yes, that includes the neighbor router, by spec (this is the part that DECnet/E does differently). paul One amusing issue: I kept getting adjacency up notices about my TOPS-10 install...but no down notices. ;) -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments Hello! My doing. Now how come you, Cory, didn't react regarding my description of how your network for the TOPS-10 setup was arranged? Or that of stirring in the monster from the WB cartoons? I may have missed that email. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments Hello! Oh dear. Search back to the beginning of the thread, when you made the announcement in a completely new one. ----- Odd. Now why is that red guy in a monster suit and wearing cheap sneakers pounding on that terminal again? For some really weird reason that has gotten the plot of Electric Dreams stuck in my head....I blame that. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments

12 years, 1 month

Re: TOPS-10 and DECnet Progress Update

by gregg.drwho8＠gmail.com

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 10:07 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2013, Gregg Levine wrote: On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2013, Paul_Koning wrote: On May 16, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2013-05-16 22:16, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons wrote: Al 15/05/13 22:52, En/na Cory Smelosky ha escrit: What does it use for network device? It's using the NI right now, as it's KLH10. Speaking of devices... has anyone been succesful configuring KLH10 to use a tap interface? I have not been able to do that, so I have to share the host real ethernet, thus making not posible to run two instances of KLH10 in the same host (unless I run those inside a VM, which is a little bit overkill). Oh, and a weird thing... I have a simulated TOPS-10 under KLH10 with DECNET up and running... but it can talk only to its adjacent nodes. It seems like the routing node (a simh 780 running VMS 4.7) does not route traffic (in either direction) when the destination or the source is the KLH10... Weird. Are you sure it talks ok with the routing node? I mean, have you actually used any protocol to test, or just noted the adjacency up messages? The reason I ask is that the adjacency up messages are not really enough to be sure that the link really is working. One thing to remember is that a router adjacency "up" transition does not make anything reachable (except on DECnet/E which doesn't quite do things according to the spec). Only when the routing messages are exchanged after the adjacency comes up is anything marked as reachable. Yes, that includes the neighbor router, by spec (this is the part that DECnet/E does differently). paul One amusing issue: I kept getting adjacency up notices about my TOPS-10 install...but no down notices. ;) -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments Hello! My doing. Now how come you, Cory, didn't react regarding my description of how your network for the TOPS-10 setup was arranged? Or that of stirring in the monster from the WB cartoons? I may have missed that email. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments Hello! Oh dear. Search back to the beginning of the thread, when you made the announcement in a completely new one. ----- Odd. Now why is that red guy in a monster suit and wearing cheap sneakers pounding on that terminal again? ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

12 years, 1 month

Re: TOPS-10 and DECnet Progress Update

by b4＠gewt.net

On Thu, 17 May 2013, Gregg Levine wrote: On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2013, Paul_Koning wrote: On May 16, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2013-05-16 22:16, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons wrote: Al 15/05/13 22:52, En/na Cory Smelosky ha escrit: What does it use for network device? It's using the NI right now, as it's KLH10. Speaking of devices... has anyone been succesful configuring KLH10 to use a tap interface? I have not been able to do that, so I have to share the host real ethernet, thus making not posible to run two instances of KLH10 in the same host (unless I run those inside a VM, which is a little bit overkill). Oh, and a weird thing... I have a simulated TOPS-10 under KLH10 with DECNET up and running... but it can talk only to its adjacent nodes. It seems like the routing node (a simh 780 running VMS 4.7) does not route traffic (in either direction) when the destination or the source is the KLH10... Weird. Are you sure it talks ok with the routing node? I mean, have you actually used any protocol to test, or just noted the adjacency up messages? The reason I ask is that the adjacency up messages are not really enough to be sure that the link really is working. One thing to remember is that a router adjacency "up" transition does not make anything reachable (except on DECnet/E which doesn't quite do things according to the spec). Only when the routing messages are exchanged after the adjacency comes up is anything marked as reachable. Yes, that includes the neighbor router, by spec (this is the part that DECnet/E does differently). paul One amusing issue: I kept getting adjacency up notices about my TOPS-10 install...but no down notices. ;) -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments Hello! My doing. Now how come you, Cory, didn't react regarding my description of how your network for the TOPS-10 setup was arranged? Or that of stirring in the monster from the WB cartoons? I may have missed that email. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments

12 years, 1 month

Re: TOPS-10 and DECnet Progress Update

by gregg.drwho8＠gmail.com

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2013, Paul_Koning wrote: On May 16, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2013-05-16 22:16, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons wrote: Al 15/05/13 22:52, En/na Cory Smelosky ha escrit: What does it use for network device? It's using the NI right now, as it's KLH10. Speaking of devices... has anyone been succesful configuring KLH10 to use a tap interface? I have not been able to do that, so I have to share the host real ethernet, thus making not posible to run two instances of KLH10 in the same host (unless I run those inside a VM, which is a little bit overkill). Oh, and a weird thing... I have a simulated TOPS-10 under KLH10 with DECNET up and running... but it can talk only to its adjacent nodes. It seems like the routing node (a simh 780 running VMS 4.7) does not route traffic (in either direction) when the destination or the source is the KLH10... Weird. Are you sure it talks ok with the routing node? I mean, have you actually used any protocol to test, or just noted the adjacency up messages? The reason I ask is that the adjacency up messages are not really enough to be sure that the link really is working. One thing to remember is that a router adjacency "up" transition does not make anything reachable (except on DECnet/E which doesn't quite do things according to the spec). Only when the routing messages are exchanged after the adjacency comes up is anything marked as reachable. Yes, that includes the neighbor router, by spec (this is the part that DECnet/E does differently). paul One amusing issue: I kept getting adjacency up notices about my TOPS-10 install...but no down notices. ;) -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments Hello! My doing. Now how come you, Cory, didn't react regarding my description of how your network for the TOPS-10 setup was arranged? Or that of stirring in the monster from the WB cartoons? ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

12 years, 1 month

Re: TOPS-10 and DECnet Progress Update

by b4＠gewt.net

On Thu, 17 May 2013, Paul_Koning wrote: On May 16, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2013-05-16 22:16, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons wrote: Al 15/05/13 22:52, En/na Cory Smelosky ha escrit: What does it use for network device? It's using the NI right now, as it's KLH10. Speaking of devices... has anyone been succesful configuring KLH10 to use a tap interface? I have not been able to do that, so I have to share the host real ethernet, thus making not posible to run two instances of KLH10 in the same host (unless I run those inside a VM, which is a little bit overkill). Oh, and a weird thing... I have a simulated TOPS-10 under KLH10 with DECNET up and running... but it can talk only to its adjacent nodes. It seems like the routing node (a simh 780 running VMS 4.7) does not route traffic (in either direction) when the destination or the source is the KLH10... Weird. Are you sure it talks ok with the routing node? I mean, have you actually used any protocol to test, or just noted the adjacency up messages? The reason I ask is that the adjacency up messages are not really enough to be sure that the link really is working. One thing to remember is that a router adjacency "up" transition does not make anything reachable (except on DECnet/E which doesn't quite do things according to the spec). Only when the routing messages are exchanged after the adjacency comes up is anything marked as reachable. Yes, that includes the neighbor router, by spec (this is the part that DECnet/E does differently). paul One amusing issue: I kept getting adjacency up notices about my TOPS-10 install...but no down notices. ;) -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments

12 years, 1 month

Re: TOPS-10 and DECnet Progress Update

by Paul_Koning＠Dell.com

On May 16, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2013-05-16 22:16, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons wrote: Al 15/05/13 22:52, En/na Cory Smelosky ha escrit: What does it use for network device? It's using the NI right now, as it's KLH10. Speaking of devices... has anyone been succesful configuring KLH10 to use a tap interface? I have not been able to do that, so I have to share the host real ethernet, thus making not posible to run two instances of KLH10 in the same host (unless I run those inside a VM, which is a little bit overkill). Oh, and a weird thing... I have a simulated TOPS-10 under KLH10 with DECNET up and running... but it can talk only to its adjacent nodes. It seems like the routing node (a simh 780 running VMS 4.7) does not route traffic (in either direction) when the destination or the source is the KLH10... Weird. Are you sure it talks ok with the routing node? I mean, have you actually used any protocol to test, or just noted the adjacency up messages? The reason I ask is that the adjacency up messages are not really enough to be sure that the link really is working. One thing to remember is that a router adjacency "up" transition does not make anything reachable (except on DECnet/E which doesn't quite do things according to the spec). Only when the routing messages are exchanged after the adjacency comes up is anything marked as reachable. Yes, that includes the neighbor router, by spec (this is the part that DECnet/E does differently). paul

12 years, 1 month

Another sillyness. More information in the nodename database on MIM.

by Paul_Koning＠Dell.com

On May 16, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2013-05-16 23:12, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: ... The routing part looks pretty good right now. I don't have it active all the time yet, but I hooked it into Multinet and it appeared to be stable. The main issue is that point to point DECnet over UDP is architecturally invalid; the initialization state machine isn't designed for that. The result is that it takes a while for both sides to agree that the circuit is "Up". I've been thinking of workaround for the misbehavior. A cleaner solution is to run Multinet over TCP, which appears to exist -- if someone can figure out how to do that and what the packet formats look like for that case, I'll implement it. Alternatively, the SIMH DMC11 protocol works very well, it would clearly be a superior solution for Hecnet. I haven't looked enough to really make sensible comments, but in which way is point-to-point over UDP invalid? I would have thought that wouldn't be any different than if you had an ethernet segment with just two nodes on it (I'm assuming Multinet UDP tunnels act like ethernet, but I might be wrong on that one as well...) No, the Multinet UDP tunnel uses the point to point datalink dependent sublayer of DECnet. Quoting from the Phase IV routing spec: The required Data Link Layer guarantees for point-to-point links are: 1. Provision that both source and destination nodes complete start-up before message exchange can occur 2. Detection of remote start-up 3. Provision that no old messages be received after start-up is complete 4. Masking of transient errors in order to prevent packet data corruption 5. Provision for not duplicating or corrupting packets 6. Packet sequentiality ensuring that, if a packet has been received, all previously sent packets have been received 7. Reporting of failures and degraded circuit conditions The required Data Link Layer guarantees for Ethernets are: 1. Provision for not corrupting packets 2. Packet sequentiality ensuring that, if a packet has been received, no previously sent packet will be subsequently received So the expectations on the datalink layer are dramatically different. And as a result, the algorithms in the routing layer are, also. In particular, the circuit initialization state machine in the routing layer (chapter 7 of the spec) relies quite strongly on many of the stated requirements. The DMC emulation in SIMH implements all of those requirements, which is why it works very well indeed. On the other hand, UDP implements requirements 4 and 5, but none of the rest. The lack of properties 1, 2, and 3 completely invalidates the circuit initialization state machine (its design is very much dependent on those properties being satisfied). I can see the proof of this all the time if I trace what happens on a Multinet link. It keeps cycling because one end or the other receives an init message while in run state. That happens when the other end restarts, but since #2 is missing, the state machine sees that as an unexpected message in run state rather than a preceding datalink restart when that message is expected to be seen next. With enough retries (and, perhaps, some luck) the two ends eventually come to the right conclusion, but it takes a lot of cycling. I think I can make some nonstandard changes to the state machine to work around this issue. After all, it's obvious enough that one can design a datalink dependent sublayer for UDP -- it's just that there isn't one in the DECnet Phase IV architecture. And whoever contrapted the UDP based Multilink tunnel either didn't care about that or didn't understand what he was doing wrong. paul

12 years, 1 month

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