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by wonko＠4amlunch.net

On Jun 12, 2013, at 10:42, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote: On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:55 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: ust run a sed command such as "s/^def/set/" and you have what you need as well. But using awk has higher geek creds. Then again, I don't think any one solved the Tower of Hanoi in Awk, but it was done in a sed script. ;-) There would be no challenge to doing it in awk. It would be no more complicated than writing it in C or Java. :) -brian

12 years, 9 months

Anyone got TOPS-20 / Ultrix with DECNET SIMH image ready to run?

by b4＠gewt.net

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: On 06/12/2013 02:44 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: Unfortunately X on modern OSes is a little more of a kludge. ;) On the contrary. The design of X is very clean. (yes, I've been "all up in there".) There are some things about its innards that I do not like, but overall, it's extremely well-done. Ohhh. We're talking protocol design and that stuff. Yes, THAT is clean. I've just had experience with very bad implementations I guess. Like the one I'm currently running that likes to use 100% CPU doing nothing for no reason. This wouldn't happen on a properly-implemented workstation I would admit. However on a PeeCee where politics is more important than doing things well...issues arise. I'm still a fan of NeWS myself. ;) The fact that we're still using it three decades later on completely, totally different hardware, in completely different ways, tells a lot. That does say a lot. I'd still argue that the implementations still need work though. Some parts of how we're using it now, though (like client-side font rendering) are extremely kludgy. But that's not the fault of X. I'd agree. I didn't know we were discussing the protocol. ;) I suppose if you tweak it enough and force it to bend over to serve you it can be quite nice...but It's not my friend. Much like many other UNIX/Linux apps...X DOES choose its friends very carefully. ;) I cannot agree. It has always been a snap for me. But then (until the past year or so) I've always run it on real workstations, not PC garbage. (who the hell ever heard of multiple resolutions and sync rates?! WTF?!!) Yeah, that would explain it being a snap for you. I've had to use it on PeeCee hardware. It is "literally worse than Hitler" on PC garbage. ;) (It's one of the few UNIX-HATERS chapters I completely agree with...I just think X has wasted potential and could've been better implemented.) The UNIX-HATERS crowd needs to find a better hobby. That they do, I just agree with some of their points. Like some of the standards organisations being nuts and X having been poorly implemented by many vendors. (I also would've liked an X consortium standardising on a UI paradigm...or if people had followed OPEN LOOK) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments

12 years, 9 months

Anyone got TOPS-20 / Ultrix with DECNET SIMH image ready to run?

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 06/12/2013 02:50 PM, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons wrote: But it was far better than its predecessor (VAXwindows? I forgot what it was called -- a VMS-specific windowing system developed at DEC, and dumped after a year in favor of X. DECwindows. I loved it, but then I loved X more. =) (and Hmmm IIRC DECWindows IS Xwindows (just a commercial moniker for it). I think the name we are looking for is VWM. Correcting myself: VWS Yes that. :) Then there was, if memory serves (but these are VERY dusty neurons!) UWS, for the Ultrix version, but it might've been something different. (I know I've seen, have installed, and probably still have TK50s that say "UWS" on them, or "Ultrix with UWS") -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

12 years, 9 months

Anyone got TOPS-20 / Ultrix with DECNET SIMH image ready to run?

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 06/12/2013 02:46 PM, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons wrote: DECwindows. I loved it, but then I loved X more. =) (and Hmmm IIRC DECWindows IS Xwindows (just a commercial moniker for it). I think the name we are looking for is VWM. Oh crap, YES I had forgotten all about that one. We're both wrong; it's "VWS", the VAX Workstation Software (or System, something)...Yes that one was very short-lived. DECwindows itself is built atop X, but it had its own X server with (properly-done, registered) extensions. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

12 years, 9 months

Anyone got TOPS-20 / Ultrix with DECNET SIMH image ready to run?

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 06/12/2013 02:44 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: Unfortunately X on modern OSes is a little more of a kludge. ;) On the contrary. The design of X is very clean. (yes, I've been "all up in there".) There are some things about its innards that I do not like, but overall, it's extremely well-done. The fact that we're still using it three decades later on completely, totally different hardware, in completely different ways, tells a lot. Some parts of how we're using it now, though (like client-side font rendering) are extremely kludgy. But that's not the fault of X. I suppose if you tweak it enough and force it to bend over to serve you it can be quite nice...but It's not my friend. Much like many other UNIX/Linux apps...X DOES choose its friends very carefully. ;) I cannot agree. It has always been a snap for me. But then (until the past year or so) I've always run it on real workstations, not PC garbage. (who the hell ever heard of multiple resolutions and sync rates?! WTF?!!) (It's one of the few UNIX-HATERS chapters I completely agree with...I just think X has wasted potential and could've been better implemented.) The UNIX-HATERS crowd needs to find a better hobby. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

12 years, 9 months

Anyone got TOPS-20 / Ultrix with DECNET SIMH image ready to run?

by jg＠jordi.guillaumes.name

Jordi Guillaumes i Pons Barcelona - Catalunya - Europa El 12/06/2013, a les 20:46, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons <jg at jordi.guillaumes.name> va escriure: Jordi Guillaumes i Pons Barcelona - Catalunya - Europa El 12/06/2013, a les 20:40, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> va escriure: But it was far better than its predecessor (VAXwindows? I forgot what it was called -- a VMS-specific windowing system developed at DEC, and dumped after a year in favor of X. DECwindows. I loved it, but then I loved X more. =) (and Hmmm IIRC DECWindows IS Xwindows (just a commercial moniker for it). I think the name we are looking for is VWM. Correcting myself: VWS

12 years, 9 months

Anyone got TOPS-20 / Ultrix with DECNET SIMH image ready to run?

by jg＠jordi.guillaumes.name

Jordi Guillaumes i Pons Barcelona - Catalunya - Europa El 12/06/2013, a les 20:40, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> va escriure: But it was far better than its predecessor (VAXwindows? I forgot what it was called -- a VMS-specific windowing system developed at DEC, and dumped after a year in favor of X. DECwindows. I loved it, but then I loved X more. =) (and Hmmm IIRC DECWindows IS Xwindows (just a commercial moniker for it). I think the name we are looking for is VWM.

12 years, 9 months

Anyone got TOPS-20 / Ultrix with DECNET SIMH image ready to run?

by b4＠gewt.net

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons wrote: Just a very basic question: which kind of disk drive should I configure in simh to make the VAX Ultrix 4.5 happy? :) Layered products aren't up on TUHS for 4.5. You'd be better off with 4.0 unless you have the full media. I'd go with an ra82 or similar...I think that's what I configured but I could be mistaken. http://gewt.net/ultrix2.dsk root p/w is "changeme". After that I will probably bomb you with questions about configuration and layered installation :) Read the documentation first. ;) (and remember to install the man pages) Jordi Guillaumes i Pons Barcelona - Catalunya - Europa El 12/06/2013, a les 20:37, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> va escriure: On 06/12/2013 02:30 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: On Wed, 12 Jun 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: On 06/12/2013 01:53 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: I would like to play with Ultrix too. I tried to install it some time ago and didn't succeed (no docs, a probably corrupted media image...).. Are there viable media available somewhere? Docs? I have tape images for Ultrix/VAX v4.0. I have a physical CD for it as well, but possibly a later release, as well as one for MIPS, but I've not yet imaged them. I don't recall their release numbers because I haven't seen them in probably fifteen years, but I know what box they're in. I will try to dig them up soon. Docs...It's BSD UNIX, man! Yet the package management is partially SysV. ;) Package management?! By package management I mean: "using setld to install packages from tape".. Oh wow, good old setld. Yes, I do remember that. It's so primitive that I didn't even think of it as "package management" in today's terms. Wait a minute. Was setld present in any SysV implementations? (Seriously, I ran Ultrix on my desktop for years, didn't even know it HAD package management...I built everything from source.) Like a real UNIX user! :) Well yes. ;) Thank you. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments

12 years, 9 months

Anyone got TOPS-20 / Ultrix with DECNET SIMH image ready to run?

by b4＠gewt.net

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: On 06/12/2013 02:33 PM, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: ago. And that demo surfaced some time later. The big complaint was that when too many windows were open the system started dragging its feet. I blame X for that. ;) I still have that happen...on modern intel crap. X never did that on far, far slower hardware. X was pretty good even on very slow hardware, though the first VAXstation with its one bit per pixel dumb bitmap display was iffy. The VCB01. That was my first VAX framebuffer. I'd agree with "iffy" until you compare it with its contemporaries...i.e., CGA on a PeeCee. PeeCee contemporaries left much to be desired. ;) But it was far better than its predecessor (VAXwindows? I forgot what it was called -- a VMS-specific windowing system developed at DEC, and dumped after a year in favor of X. DECwindows. I loved it, but then I loved X more. =) (and still do!) -Dave Unfortunately X on modern OSes is a little more of a kludge. ;) I suppose if you tweak it enough and force it to bend over to serve you it can be quite nice...but It's not my friend. Much like many other UNIX/Linux apps...X DOES choose its friends very carefully. ;) (It's one of the few UNIX-HATERS chapters I completely agree with...I just think X has wasted potential and could've been better implemented.) -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments

12 years, 9 months

Anyone got TOPS-20 / Ultrix with DECNET SIMH image ready to run?

by jg＠jordi.guillaumes.name

Just a very basic question: which kind of disk drive should I configure in simh to make the VAX Ultrix 4.5 happy? :) After that I will probably bomb you with questions about configuration and layered installation :) Jordi Guillaumes i Pons Barcelona - Catalunya - Europa El 12/06/2013, a les 20:37, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> va escriure: On 06/12/2013 02:30 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: On Wed, 12 Jun 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: On 06/12/2013 01:53 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: I would like to play with Ultrix too. I tried to install it some time ago and didn't succeed (no docs, a probably corrupted media image...). Are there viable media available somewhere? Docs? I have tape images for Ultrix/VAX v4.0. I have a physical CD for it as well, but possibly a later release, as well as one for MIPS, but I've not yet imaged them. I don't recall their release numbers because I haven't seen them in probably fifteen years, but I know what box they're in. I will try to dig them up soon. Docs...It's BSD UNIX, man! Yet the package management is partially SysV. ;) Package management?! By package management I mean: "using setld to install packages from tape". Oh wow, good old setld. Yes, I do remember that. It's so primitive that I didn't even think of it as "package management" in today's terms. Wait a minute. Was setld present in any SysV implementations? (Seriously, I ran Ultrix on my desktop for years, didn't even know it HAD package management...I built everything from source.) Like a real UNIX user! :) Well yes. ;) Thank you. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

12 years, 9 months

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