I'd also like to point out that the LK450 (which is the keyboard following on from the LK250 and was designed for connection to a PC running terminal emulation software) is a good alternative.
That's not the scenario I'm talking about. No oddball scan codes; I could perfectly easily define a keyboard lookup table for the keyboard in question without having to go to any unnatural acts.
The trouble is that I could never get that far. The OS would see the keyboard, ask me to press a shift key so it would know where that lives, and then it would get no further.
Some of the people connected to this were Apple folks, and it was clear to them that this was seen as a bug -- but the people who need to fix it never got around to doing anything about it in spite of offers of help.
paul
On Sep 17, 2013, at 11:39 AM, "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system at TMESIS.COM> wrote:
<Paul_Koning at Dell.com> writes:
Don't be surprised if it doesn't work right.
I have a USB keyboard that was built with an industry standard USB keyboard=
controller chip. It works fine in Linux, but if you plug it into a Mac, t=
he keyboard handler goes into an infinite loop. That bug was discovered se=
veral years ago and remains unfixed.
I don't know that that is a bug. Apple keyboards expect to be initialized
with and for specific scan codes. They built their keyboards and drivers
based on this expectation. There's issues with the LK-style USB keyboard
and that gaming-console purported to be an operating system from a schlock
outfit in Redmond WA too. There are keyboard scan codes that just will not
be recognized by that gaming-console purported to be an operating system.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
<Paul_Koning at Dell.com> writes:
Don't be surprised if it doesn't work right.
I have a USB keyboard that was built with an industry standard USB keyboard=
controller chip. It works fine in Linux, but if you plug it into a Mac, t=
he keyboard handler goes into an infinite loop. That bug was discovered se=
veral years ago and remains unfixed.
I don't know that that is a bug. Apple keyboards expect to be initialized
with and for specific scan codes. They built their keyboards and drivers
based on this expectation. There's issues with the LK-style USB keyboard
and that gaming-console purported to be an operating system from a schlock
outfit in Redmond WA too. There are keyboard scan codes that just will not
be recognized by that gaming-console purported to be an operating system.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
If you're looking for the alternate keypad between the QWERTY and the
numberic (arrows, [HELP], [Do], etc.) then, you'll want the LK-style
keyboard. If you use Linux on your x86 box -- and you should ;) --
a few Xmodmap entries and or Xresources entries will give you pretty
much full use of the LK-sytle keyboard. On the Mac, it's been quite
a while since I've plugged an LK-style keyboard into one -- I recall
that it worked pretty much out-of-the-box.
I think Terminal.app lets me remap arbitrary key-presses to any escape sequence I want, I assume I could use this to enable the Do/arrow keys etc?
Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> writes:
My idea is to plug one of these into a Macbook Pro with a USB adapter, =
failing that, could I just get a 100+ key USB keyboard, do some tweaking =
and relabel the buttons?
OK. With the Mac keyboards, you have a reasonable approximation of the
LK-style keyboard; at least, as far as the numeric keypad is concerned.
You have three keys above the enter like on the LK-keyboards, not that
stupidly large [+] key like on all the IBM keyboards. IBM thought that
their PC was an adding machine. :) With the Mac keyboard keypad, one
can use VMS utilities (editors, debugger, etc.) which have functions
defined on the numeric keypad without having to muck about with mapping
some other keyboard key -- unnatural for those accustomed to the LK --
for the fused [,] and [-] into the [+} on the IBM style keyboards.
If you're looking for the alternate keypad between the QWERTY and the
numberic (arrows, [HELP], [Do], etc.) then, you'll want the LK-style
keyboard. If you use Linux on your x86 box -- and you should ;) --
a few Xmodmap entries and or Xresources entries will give you pretty
much full use of the LK-sytle keyboard. On the Mac, it's been quite
a while since I've plugged an LK-style keyboard into one -- I recall
that it worked pretty much out-of-the-box.
Now, if only the xterms built for Linux and Mac would better support
the myriad escape sequences that define a VT. Recently, and I would
probably have to patch and edit source and build it myself, I've been
wanting DECELR/DECSLE in my xterm. Happily, I can simply issue the
$ CREATE/TERMINAL/... command and get a well behaved DECterm that'll
do this for me.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Don't be surprised if it doesn't work right.
I have a USB keyboard that was built with an industry standard USB keyboard controller chip. It works fine in Linux, but if you plug it into a Mac, the keyboard handler goes into an infinite loop. That bug was discovered several years ago and remains unfixed.
paul
On Sep 17, 2013, at 10:28 AM, Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote:
I forgot to clarify - I'm thinking about getting a old MAC keyboard which has loads of extra buttons that I'm sure the OS will pass through..
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +358 40 7208932
On 17 Sep 2013, at 16:27, Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote:
I think I can remap the keys to send pretty much any escape code in Terminal.app.
So as long as I have enough physical keys, I can 'emulate' an LK-style keyboar (Gold keys, PF1-4 etc).
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +358 40 7208932
On 17 Sep 2013, at 16:24, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
To do what? The OS won't support the keys and as a result a terminal from the host OS won't either. I am not 100% sure how SimH accesses the keyboard input and haven't tested a USB VMS keyboard with it. I fear the host OS won't map the keys forward?
FWIW my AB552A is USB with a PS/2 adapter.
Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote:
My idea is to plug one of these into a Macbook Pro with a USB adapter, failing that, could I just get a 100+ key USB keyboard, do some tweaking and relabel the buttons?
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +358 40 7208932
On 17 Sep 2013, at 06:29, Kari Uusim ki <uusimaki at exdecfinland.org> wrote:
Might be worth to get one if you can manage to find one (for a reasonable price).
HP's price is very high. Don't know if they still deliver them.
I've tried to use the PS2-style LK keyboards connected through a PS2 - USB dongle with my zx6000 with no luck.
Kari
On 17.9.2013 6:12, Sampsa Laine wrote:
Just saw this on HoffmanLabs,
intrigued by the AB552A model.
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/19
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +358 40 7208932
.
--
Mark Benson
On 17/09/2013 15:28, Sampsa Laine wrote:
I forgot to clarify - I'm thinking about getting a old MAC keyboard which has loads of extra buttons that I'm sure the OS will pass through..
Cherry don't make the AB552A kit any more, it was discontinued around 2 years ago. I have one of these, and as far as Cherry keyboards go, and as pointed out previously, it is pretty disappointing - very stiff keys but mushy at the same time. They took the existing tooling that Compaq/HP used previously. Not an inspiring keyboard.
As far as using one with an emulator, I can do that under Linux by remapping keys and all but one (I forget which, PF4 I think) works OK.
If you are rolling your own terminal app to connect with SIMH you have carte blanche I would imagine as long as the underlying operating system driver recognises the extra keys. In the case of the AB552A and Windows, for example, some of the keys simply don't generate a keycode that is propogated through to the application layer, so you're pretty much screwed attempting to get it working.
Also note that for the PS/2 variants of the keyboard such as the LK41R the extra keys use a special mode (Mode or Layer 3) of the PS/2 protocol which isn't supported in many mainstream operating systems.
Yes, I have been struggling for years with my urge to keep using OpenVMS layout keyboards. The best solution I've found is to use old-style LK201/LK411 keyboards (with the RJ11-ish plug) via a physical adapter which powers the keyboard via a 12V psu and allows connection via an RS/232 cable to a linux PC. There is a kernel mode keyboard driver which can successfully scan the entire keyboard and allows for a certain level of customisation if you're prepared to re-compile kernel modules.
There is some brief info here on this particular solution: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/vaxen/linuxLK.html
I've not done this in a while so as with all things Linux it'll be worth checking the support is still in there.
Talking of keyboards, there a number of standard PC layout DIGITAL keyboards listed on eBay UK with a PS/2 connector which are going for around 10 each. I'm using one now and although they are a standard membrane technology they have quite a nice feel.
Regards, Mark.
I forgot to clarify - I'm thinking about getting a old MAC keyboard which has loads of extra buttons that I'm sure the OS will pass through..
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +358 40 7208932
On 17 Sep 2013, at 16:27, Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote:
I think I can remap the keys to send pretty much any escape code in Terminal.app.
So as long as I have enough physical keys, I can 'emulate' an LK-style keyboar (Gold keys, PF1-4 etc).
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +358 40 7208932
On 17 Sep 2013, at 16:24, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
To do what? The OS won't support the keys and as a result a terminal from the host OS won't either. I am not 100% sure how SimH accesses the keyboard input and haven't tested a USB VMS keyboard with it. I fear the host OS won't map the keys forward?
FWIW my AB552A is USB with a PS/2 adapter.
Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote:
My idea is to plug one of these into a Macbook Pro with a USB adapter, failing that, could I just get a 100+ key USB keyboard, do some tweaking and relabel the buttons?
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +358 40 7208932
On 17 Sep 2013, at 06:29, Kari Uusim ki <uusimaki at exdecfinland.org> wrote:
Might be worth to get one if you can manage to find one (for a reasonable price).
HP's price is very high. Don't know if they still deliver them.
I've tried to use the PS2-style LK keyboards connected through a PS2 - USB dongle with my zx6000 with no luck.
Kari
On 17.9.2013 6:12, Sampsa Laine wrote:
Just saw this on HoffmanLabs,
intrigued by the AB552A model.
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/19
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +358 40 7208932
.
--
Mark Benson
I think I can remap the keys to send pretty much any escape code in Terminal.app.
So as long as I have enough physical keys, I can 'emulate' an LK-style keyboar (Gold keys, PF1-4 etc).
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +358 40 7208932
On 17 Sep 2013, at 16:24, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
To do what? The OS won't support the keys and as a result a terminal from the host OS won't either. I am not 100% sure how SimH accesses the keyboard input and haven't tested a USB VMS keyboard with it. I fear the host OS won't map the keys forward?
FWIW my AB552A is USB with a PS/2 adapter.
Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote:
My idea is to plug one of these into a Macbook Pro with a USB adapter, failing that, could I just get a 100+ key USB keyboard, do some tweaking and relabel the buttons?
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +358 40 7208932
On 17 Sep 2013, at 06:29, Kari Uusim ki <uusimaki at exdecfinland.org> wrote:
Might be worth to get one if you can manage to find one (for a reasonable price).
HP's price is very high. Don't know if they still deliver them.
I've tried to use the PS2-style LK keyboards connected through a PS2 - USB dongle with my zx6000 with no luck.
Kari
On 17.9.2013 6:12, Sampsa Laine wrote:
Just saw this on HoffmanLabs,
intrigued by the AB552A model.
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/19
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +358 40 7208932
.
--
Mark Benson
To do what? The OS won't support the keys and as a result a terminal from the host OS won't either. I am not 100% sure how SimH accesses the keyboard input and haven't tested a USB VMS keyboard with it. I fear the host OS won't map the keys forward?
FWIW my AB552A is USB with a PS/2 adapter.
Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote:
My idea is to plug one of these into a Macbook Pro with a USB adapter, failing that, could I just get a 100+ key USB keyboard, do some tweaking and relabel the buttons?
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +358 40 7208932
On 17 Sep 2013, at 06:29, Kari Uusim ki <uusimaki at exdecfinland.org> wrote:
Might be worth to get one if you can manage to find one (for a reasonable price).
HP's price is very high. Don't know if they still deliver them.
I've tried to use the PS2-style LK keyboards connected through a PS2 - USB dongle with my zx6000 with no luck.
Kari
On 17.9.2013 6:12, Sampsa Laine wrote:
Just saw this on HoffmanLabs,
intrigued by the AB552A model.
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/19
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +358 40 7208932
.
--
Mark Benson
