On 10.10.2013 18:27, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Oct 10, 2013, at 10:53 AM, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> wrote:
On 10/10/2013 15:29, Brian Hechinger wrote:
All this talk of FDDI makes me want to go get the 4000/500s. I have a
pair of QBus FDDI cards. I suppose I would have to make the Octane a
router between FDDI and ethernet. :)
-brian
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:26:23PM +0000, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
If you have SAS NICs. you can connect a pair of them (S to S).
Thanks for all the info guys, I knew you'd be one hell of a knowledgeable lot!
If I understand what you are saying correctly, if I have NODE3 with the Turbochannel FDDI card (copper based) and a.n.other (call it NODE2 for arguments sake) ALPHA with a PCI FDDI Copper card I could wire them too together directly?
If that were so I would presumably need to do some routing within NODE2 to allow NODE3 access to network traffic if NODE2 was also connected to the 'great wide world' via ethernet.
Is there anything I'm missing in this picture?
You have the picture. You'll need a crossover (not straight through) cable. I went looking for data on the pinouts. It turns out the pins used by FDDI TP-PMD ("Twisted pair physical medium dependent layer") are distinct from 100Base-T, but a crossover cable that has all four pairs wired should serve. According to http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/national/_appNotes/AN-0965…, pins 1/2 are the transmit pair, 7/8 the receive pair.
So a SAS connection is like a point to point Ethernet connection: exactly two stations. Yes, that means that one (or both) endpoint needs to be either a bridge or a router for you to reach other nodes.
Earlier there was mention of the DEC full duplex mode. You can turn that on for this topology, if you want to. It may not be worth the trouble; the token ring overhead is pretty modest for short connections.
paul
.
DEC used to have the BN26S-xx cable for FDDI twisted pair connections.
It has two pairs which are crossed and the pinout is 12----78
Kari
On Thu, 10 Oct 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 10/10/2013 10:35 AM, Brian Hechinger wrote:
The other two: the DECbridge 900, which plugged into the 900 series
modular enclosure. It's about the side of a 400 page hardcover
book, FDDI to 6 Ethernet ports, 60,000 packets per second using a
MC68040 at 25 MHz. I'm still proud of that. (I wrote the "fast
path" packet forwarding firmware.)
Neat!
That's not "neat"...that's AWESOME. Just pointing it out..
;)
Then there is the Gigaswitch, a large modular chassis with lots of
line cards, some FDDI, some Ethernet, possibly some with other
stuff I don't remember.
I think this is the one I had. Big modular thing. Maybe (and going
by really fuzzy memory here) 8U high?
A GigaSwitch is a lot more than 8U high. Try nearly half a rack.
I'm going to assume half a 42U rack for maximum awesomeness. ;)
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On 10.10.2013 18:19, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Oct 10, 2013, at 10:35 AM, Brian Hechinger <wonko at 4amlunch.net<mailto:wonko at 4amlunch.net>> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:32:26PM +0000, Paul_Koning at Dell.com<mailto:Paul_Koning at Dell.com> wrote:
...
Then there is the Gigaswitch, a large modular chassis with lots of line cards, some FDDI, some Ethernet, possibly some with other stuff I don't remember.
I think this is the one I had. Big modular thing. Maybe (and going by
really fuzzy memory here) 8U high?
I was going to say "that sounds right" based on my memory of seeing one gathering dust around here. But the picture here: http://www.global-itcorp.com/products/digital-dec/networking/gigaswitch/ shows a much taller enclosure, half line card space and half power supply. Each section does look like 8U or so.
Some searching turns up refurbished Gigaswitch modules. Some are pretty cheap, but it looks like those are ATM ones, the FDDI ones I see quoted are more expensive. Perhaps because FDDI was fairly successful at least for a short time, while ATM (as a LAN) was an utter failure.
paul
.
Quite so, the Gigaswitch FDDI is large. The measurements are: 35.25" x 19.95" x 19.50" and the weight is 192lbs. The power consuption is about 1000W depending on the amount of line cards.
There are FDDI fiber and twisted pair line cards and 100BaseT line cards.
Many operators used to have those at the time and the later ATM versions as well.
Kari
On 10/10/2013 11:59 AM, Mark Wickens wrote:
... I have a DEC VNswitch 900XX plugged into a DEChub One MX - there
are clearly modular parts to that, but I'm presuming there isn't a
FDDI copper module that I would be able to use?
That looks different (same size, though). The one I was talking about
is the DECbridge 900. I see some variations on the net -- DECbridge
900MX seems to be the same except that it has two AUI connectors
instead of being all 10Base-T. And I think the original was a SAS (S
port) while the MX is a DAS (A and B ports).
http://decdoc.itsx.net/dec94mds/defbaina.pdf has details and a picture.
paul
Unfortunately, as nice a box as it is (that counts for most things with
a 68k in ;) FDDI to 10MB doesn't solve any problems for me as the sole
benefit is the jump to 100MB over the standard ethernet card in the
3000/800, so any solution that is going to work would need to give me
access to 100MB+ at the other end of the FDDI.
The best way I've found to do this is to do it at the switch level.
(I have run lots and lots of FDDI, at work and home)
What I'd recommend is to pick up a Cisco Catalyst 5000 or 5500. That
can take lots of Ethernet modules, covering 10/100/1000Mbps, and there
are FDDI modules for them as well.
These are very fast, very reliable switches.
You can also get an RSM, the Route-Switch Module, which is basically a
7500 router on a board. It routes between VLANs on the switch, and in
that capacity can do most anything a full standalone 7500-class router
can do. It's got a separate console interface, separate PCMCIA slots,
etc...it's like a standalone router.
The Catalys 5x00 switches do full translational bridging for FDDI. I
haven't found any networking scenario that doesn't work when mixing and
matching and translating between different networking media in one of
those switches.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 10/10/2013 03:04 PM, Peter Lothberg wrote:
FDDI/CDDI is a dual ring token ring bus, with 4470 MTU byte packets,
it has 802.-- frames. DEC had a mode where you turned the token off
and used it for ptp full duplex.
I didn't know about the ptp thing. That's nifty.
A cisco FDDI-PA can talk both in a 7500 or old 7200 (the VXR don't
support the FDDI cards but the VIP does ).
About that, Peter...is there ANY way to get a FDDI PAM to run in a
7206VXR? Or will it just plain not work, ever?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
A gigaswitch/FDDI, or a dechub 900 module?
The gigaswitch were very reliable, a pleasure to manage.
Van: Brian Hechinger
Verzonden: donderdag 10 oktober 2013 14:44
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Beantwoorden: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] FDDI advice
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:36:04PM +0200, Peter Lothberg wrote:
>
> FDDI/CDDI is a dual ring token ring bus, with 4470 MTU byte packets,
> it has 802.-- frames. DEC had a mode where you turned the token off
> and used it for ptp full duplex.
I didn't know about the ptp thing. That's nifty.
> For example cisco/cabletron/crecendo had ethnernet switches with a
> FDDI uplink, that you could use.
DEC made one as well, it was that large modular thingie. I used to have
one. Never got it powered on as it was enormous.
> But you need nothing to build a FDDI ring, its a A and a B ring, you
> can just plug the cards together with fiber-patch-cables.
Unless you have one of those obnoxious single attached station cards.
-brian
DEC had solid state disks, all das iirc
Van: Johnny Billquist
Verzonden: donderdag 10 oktober 2013 11:29
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Beantwoorden: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Cc: Mark Wickens
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] SSD for Vax
On 2013-10-10 09:46, Mark Wickens wrote:
> On 10/10/2013 08:17, Daniel Soderstrom wrote:
>> Has anyone tries this? Running my Vaxstation non-stop reminds me how
>> much noise these old drives make.
>>
>> Has anyone tried SSD drives? Must be good for the PSU it terms of heat
>> and current draw.
>>
>> Daniel
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
> There has been very little success with IDE to SCSI converters on this
> age of machine.
Hmm. bad IDE to SCSI converters?
> Remember also that even 4000/90 vintage VAXstations generally have an
> upper limit of 18GB.
Uh? That got to be a limit in VMS in that case. I can't see how the
hardware would have that limit.
> I don't recall anyone even getting an IDE drive to work, let alone an SSD.
IDE and SSD are two completely unrelated things as such. However, if the
SSD have an IDE interface, then you obviously need the IDE to SCSI
converter.
> Would love to be proved wrong however! I'm surprised someone hasn't
> written a software based SCSI drive emulator the same way that you get
> floppy emulators.
Probably mostly because of speed issues. You have some very tight timing
requirements, and a SCSI interface runs way faster than a floppy.
> Consider running the machine diskless, booted off the network with
> off-node disks.
That definitely also works.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Bridges create an extended LAN and DECnet areas may use the entire LAN, all segments that are not behind a DECnet router.
The LAN doesn't have to be just ethernet. As long as bridges are used to connect ethernet to FDDI, or ATM or token ring then DECnet areas can easily be used across that network.
Van: Mark Wickens
Verzonden: donderdag 10 oktober 2013 10:19
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Beantwoorden: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: [HECnet] Stupid question about areas...
Even though I think I know the answer to this question, I'll ask it any
way...
Is it OK to run machines that are in the same area on different subnets?
For example, passing traffic between SLAVE:: and RIPLEY:: both on DECnet
area 4 but on different subnets connected via a bridge?
I think it is and that the bridge is transparent, but for some reason in
the back of my mind I have the concept of 'area router' and that doesn't
fit with this model.
Thanks, Mark.
--
http://www.wickensonline.co.ukhttp://hecnet.euhttp://declegacy.org.ukhttp://retrochallenge.nethttps://twitter.com/#!/%40urbancamo
On 10/10/2013 10:35 AM, Brian Hechinger wrote:
The other two: the DECbridge 900, which plugged into the 900 series
modular enclosure. It's about the side of a 400 page hardcover
book, FDDI to 6 Ethernet ports, 60,000 packets per second using a
MC68040 at 25 MHz. I'm still proud of that. (I wrote the "fast
path" packet forwarding firmware.)
Neat!
That's not "neat"...that's AWESOME. Just pointing it out..
Then there is the Gigaswitch, a large modular chassis with lots of
line cards, some FDDI, some Ethernet, possibly some with other
stuff I don't remember.
I think this is the one I had. Big modular thing. Maybe (and going
by really fuzzy memory here) 8U high?
A GigaSwitch is a lot more than 8U high. Try nearly half a rack.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 10.10.2013 17:26, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Oct 10, 2013, at 8:44 AM, Brian Hechinger <wonko at 4amlunch.net> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:36:04PM +0200, Peter Lothberg wrote:
FDDI/CDDI is a dual ring token ring bus, with 4470 MTU byte packets,
it has 802.-- frames. DEC had a mode where you turned the token off
and used it for ptp full duplex.
I didn't know about the ptp thing. That's nifty.
For example cisco/cabletron/crecendo had ethnernet switches with a
FDDI uplink, that you could use.
DEC made one as well, it was that large modular thingie. I used to have
one. Never got it powered on as it was enormous.
But you need nothing to build a FDDI ring, its a A and a B ring, you
can just plug the cards together with fiber-patch-cables.
Unless you have one of those obnoxious single attached station cards.
-brian
Ah, time to dust off some dormant memories. I used to work on the FDDI standard at DEC; this stuff is familiar.
"CDDI" is marketing slang; it is not standard terminology.
FDDI is different from Ethernet; the MAC layer protocol is completely unrelated. It's quite similar to token bus (802.4), actually. (The only thing it has in commoni with 802.5 is the words "token" and "ring" -- apart from that, the two protocols operate completely differently.)
FDDI connections have a "type", which can be "A", "B", "S", or "M". "M" ports exist on concentrators. NICs will have A and B ports, if there are two connectors on the NIC ("dual attached station" or DAS) or an S port, if there is one connector (single attached station or SAS).
You have a number of topology options.
If you have DAS NICs, you can wire any number of them together in a "dual ring". That's the original FDDI topology, before DEC forced concentrators to be added into the standard. To do that, connect the NICs in circular fashion, A to B. Connected that way, loss of any single connection is handled transparently.
If you have SAS NICs. you can connect a pair of them (S to S).
If you have DAS NICs plus or or two SAS, wire the DAS NICs A-B in a chain (essentially a dual ring cut open). Then connect a SAS to each end (or just to one end, if you have one SAS). There is no redundancy in this config.
Finally, if you have any concentrators, you can build a tree config out of those. If so, the M connectors connect to the NIC connectors (A, B, or S), and the concentrator's A and B connectors either connect to M ports higher up in the hierarchy, or in a dual ring if you have a ring of concentrators, or nowhere if you're at the root of a tree.
FDDI fiber connectors are standardized but different from fiber connectors used by other networks. The connector is fairly large, flat rectangular with a shroud covering the fiber ends. Connectors are keyed to match the port type, though you can omit the keys and just wire carefully. Standard fiber is 62.5/125 micrometer, but 50/125 also works.
You can find more in the DEC Technical Journal, Vol. 3 No. 2, spring 1991. Or the relevant ANSI/ISO standards if you are a masochist. The topology rules are described fairly well in the concentrator article in DTJ, but their full glory can be found in the FDDI "SMT" (station management" standard.
paul
.
Very clearly summarized!
FDDI was the network equipment of choice long before the 100Mbit/s Ethernet reached the customers. In fact many years after that as well, because it took quite a while before the 100Mbit Ethernet switches were able to perform close to FDDI. Of course the larger packet size was a great advantage when moving lots of data.
I used to work with the DEChub900 and its various modules when working at DEC CS.
They were really top of the line technology at the time. You could plug almost anything into a DEChub900.
I still do have many kind of modules at home. :)
Kari
