HECnet

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6 participants
15595 discussions

by bob＠jfcl.com

Supratim and I (with some help and encouragement from Peter) have set up an ANF10 network between the TOPS10 nodes VENTI and TWONKY. If you haven't heard of it, ANF10 (short for "A Networking Feature" - yes, really!) predates DECnet (I'm pretty sure, although I'm sure there will be debate about that) and provides mostly the same functions - remote terminals, file transfer, etc. ANF10 also has remote RJEs with card readers, line printers and terminal concentrators. .net/anf [ANF10 network: connected to VENTI(20), located at VENTI(20), 2 nodes] Node VENTI (20) SIMH KS10 VENTI 7.04 NET 14-Nov-21 Node TWONKY (37) SIMH KS10 TWONKY 7.04NET 15-Nov-21 It's possible to run ANF10 and DECnet both, and that's what we're doing so TWONKY and VENTI are also available on HECnet. If anybody else has a TOPS10 system and would like to connect it would be nice to add a few more nodes, but there is a problem. TOPS10 supports a maximum of two KDP/DUP lines on the KS10, and you need one for DECnet and the other for ANF10. That means each system can talk to at most one other ANF10 system, which limits the network size to two nodes. Bummer. There are a few options available - . DEC made some DNxx PDP-11 boxes that supported multiple ANF10 connections. We could set up one of these as a router. . Somebody could hack TOPS10 to allow more than two DUP lines. . Somebody could write a pyDECnet type gizmo that speaks ANF10. And there might be others that I haven't thought of yet. Any ideas? Bob

4 years, 4 months

ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup --> recipe for 8 Dups

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

The following recipe enables 8 dups: In simh in Pdp10_defs.h: #define DUP_LINES 8 /* max # of DUP11's */ and rebuild the pdp10. In Tops10: Edit NETPRM.MAC in the monitor build tree, usually in [10,7,MON], and modify: MXNDUP==^D8 from ^D2 and reassemble NETPRM and D8KINT and replace it in TOPS10.REL. In SYSCNF.MAC locate M.KDUP and modify as follows M.KDUP==:10 ;; Type of line for KDP0 (ANF10,DECNET,USER,IBM) [ ;; This question is asked for each KDP (KMC/DUP line) indicated in the ;; previous question. Type the name of the network product that the line ;; will support.]: d M.0KDP==:2 M.1KDP==:2 M.2KDP==:2 M.3KDP==:2 M.4KDP==:1 M.5KDP==:1 M.6KDP==:1 M.7KDP==:1 The above values are for 4 Decnet and 4 Anf10 but that can be filled in differently as needed Then rebuild the monitor. Change the Simh Pdp10 config file with the required settings set dup lines=8 and attach definitions for Dup0 to Dup7. That is all there is to it; if the instructions are to sparse I will expand them; patched files are overkill here as generally my files have evolved further in version numbers and features and undoing the unnecessary ones may lead to errors. The DN200 files have to wait till next week as I have other obligations at the moment. Success, Reindert From: Robert Armstrong [mailto:bob at jfcl.com] Sent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2021 21:33 To: R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup Reindert, Post the details, please! Especially the TOPS10 patch. MONGEN limits you to two lines on the KS, but even if I manually edit the resulting SYSCNF.MAC file I still get errors when building the monitor. Are you also running an ANF10 network? Thanks, Bob From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of R. Voorhorst Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 12:18 PM To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup L.S. It is quite easy to expand this; currently I run 8 lines from the Kdp/dup and it works quite well. It needs a slight adaptation in Simh and another in Tops10, but you have to rebuild the monitor. Reindert From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2021 17:34 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: [HECnet] ANF10 network Supratim and I (with some help and encouragement from Peter) have set up an ANF10 network between the TOPS10 nodes VENTI and TWONKY. If you haven't heard of it, ANF10 (short for "A Networking Feature" - yes, really!) predates DECnet (I'm pretty sure, although I'm sure there will be debate about that) and provides mostly the same functions - remote terminals, file transfer, etc. ANF10 also has remote RJEs with card readers, line printers and terminal concentrators. .net/anf [ANF10 network: connected to VENTI(20), located at VENTI(20), 2 nodes] Node VENTI (20) SIMH KS10 VENTI 7.04 NET 14-Nov-21 Node TWONKY (37) SIMH KS10 TWONKY 7.04NET 15-Nov-21 It's possible to run ANF10 and DECnet both, and that's what we're doing so TWONKY and VENTI are also available on HECnet. If anybody else has a TOPS10 system and would like to connect it would be nice to add a few more nodes, but there is a problem. TOPS10 supports a maximum of two KDP/DUP lines on the KS10, and you need one for DECnet and the other for ANF10. That means each system can talk to at most one other ANF10 system, which limits the network size to two nodes. Bummer. There are a few options available - * DEC made some DNxx PDP-11 boxes that supported multiple ANF10 connections. We could set up one of these as a router. * Somebody could hack TOPS10 to allow more than two DUP lines. * Somebody could write a pyDECnet type gizmo that speaks ANF10. And there might be others that I haven't thought of yet. Any ideas? Bob

4 years, 4 months

ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 --> DN200/DN20 parameters

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

The DN200/DN20 actually supports 5 Dmc class sync lines with some limitations with number of buffers per line; the system is unmapped i.e. only 28 kW available and only 5 concurrent sync lines of one class will fit comfortably within an otherwise maxed combination of terminal lines and peripherals. I use the Dmc's for that as they will communicate with every class of sync interfaces, so with Dups as well. Mixed varieties of sync lines diminish the max achievable active number of lines. Theoretically one can have more lines per controller and more controllers, but memory constrains what will work. I have not tried Dup's yet for exceeding the pseudo standard of 2 lines. Reindert -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong Sent: Wednesday, 17 November, 2021 00:12 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 Yes, please! And does your DN200 support 4 synchronous lines? Did you modify that too? The ANF10 manual says it only supports two. Thanks, Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Peter Lothberg Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 3:02 PM To: hecnet Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 Reindert, Would you share the patches to Tops10/simh to support the 4 DUP-11's? -P ----- Original Message ----- > From: "R. Voorhorst" <R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com> > To: "hecnet" <hecnet at Update.UU.SE> > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 5:15:00 PM > Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 > L.S. > > Anf10 ethernet and sync lines are 2 separate domains and currently > there are no standard interconnections. > The (now late) Johnny Ericsson had an Anf10 tunnel but I never tried it. > On a KL10 with dte interface a certain routing should be possible, but > that cannot yet be done I also restored a DN200 Pdp11 simh workstation > (see Anfu63) with terminals and peripherals with remote printing, > plotting etc. > The network looks like this from the multi kdp/dup node with 2 decnet > and 2 > anf10 active: > > > .net/t > [ANF10 network: connected to ANFW08(57), located at ANFW08(57), 5 nodes] > Node ANFW04 (53) 77(8), 55(8), 54(8) > Node ANFW05 (54) 77(8), 53(8) > Node ANFW06 (55) 77(8), 53(8) > Node ANFW08 (57) 77(10) > Node ANFU63 (77) 53(6), 54(6), 55(6), 57(6) > > [DECnet network: local node SWBW08, 8 reachable nodes in area 63] > Name Number Line Cost Hops L.Links Delay > SWBC01 (63.50) KDP-0-0 7 1 > SWBV89 (63.89) KDP-0-0 7 1 > SWBW01 (63.51) KDP-0-0 11 2 > SWBW04 (63.54) KDP-0-0 12 2 > SWBW05 (63.55) KDP-0-1 7 1 > SWBW06 (63.56) KDP-0-0 12 2 > SWBW08 (63.58) local 0 0 0 5000 > SWBX01 (63.41) KDP-0-0 11 2 > > .net > [ANF10 network: connected to ANFW08(57), located at ANFW08(57), 5 nodes] > Node ANFW04 (53) Swbw04 Tops10-7.07/34201 01-aug-20 > Node ANFW05 (54) Swbw05 Tops10-7.07/34201 01-aug-20 > Node ANFW06 (55) Swbw06 Tops10-7.07/34201 16-jul-20 > Node ANFW08 (57) SwbW08 Tops10-7.06/34100 27-Jul-20 > Node ANFU63 (77) DN200 V25(244) 02-Aug-89 > > [DECnet network: local node SWBW08, 8 reachable nodes in area 63] > SWBC01 SWBV89 SWBW01 SWBW04 SWBW05 SWBW06 SWBW08 SWBX01 > > Reindert

4 years, 4 months

ANF10 network --> node limitations

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

Yes I can provide that but we must see where to put it; maybe temporarily on Swbv55 as that one is usually active on hecnet or I will create a Tops10 node linked to Swbv55 with a sync line. Remember though, Anf10 has a limitation of 64 nodes including DN200's, so there is a limit. -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Peter Lothberg Sent: Wednesday, 17 November, 2021 01:02 To: hecnet <hecnet at Update.UU.SE> Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 --> DN200/DN20 parameters Reindert, can you put the DN200 complete package up for grabs? Ad se can have an "infinite number" of virtual dn200's to link the systems together, this might be the best thing for a HECanf10 before Paul writes a perl version -:) --P ----- Original Message ----- > From: "R. Voorhorst" <R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com> > To: "hecnet" <hecnet at Update.UU.SE> > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 6:36:02 PM > Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 --> > DN200/DN20 parameters > The DN200/DN20 actually supports 5 Dmc class sync lines with some > limitations with number of buffers per line; the system is unmapped > i.e. only 28 kW available and only 5 concurrent sync lines of one > class will fit comfortably within an otherwise maxed combination of terminal lines and peripherals. > I use the Dmc's for that as they will communicate with every class of > sync interfaces, so with Dups as well. > Mixed varieties of sync lines diminish the max achievable active > number of lines. > Theoretically one can have more lines per controller and more > controllers, but memory constrains what will work. I have not tried > Dup's yet for exceeding the pseudo standard of 2 lines. > > Reindert

4 years, 4 months

ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 --> patches

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

Yes, I will collect them and make them available and it is for 8 dups. You can then choose how many you actually have active. Decnet supports up to 8 circuits/lines. Reindert -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Peter Lothberg Sent: Wednesday, 17 November, 2021 00:02 To: hecnet <hecnet at Update.UU.SE> Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 Reindert, Would you share the patches to Tops10/simh to support the 4 DUP-11's? -P ----- Original Message ----- > From: "R. Voorhorst" <R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com> > To: "hecnet" <hecnet at Update.UU.SE> > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 5:15:00 PM > Subject: RE: [HECnet] ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200 > L.S. > > Anf10 ethernet and sync lines are 2 separate domains and currently > there are no standard interconnections. > The (now late) Johnny Ericsson had an Anf10 tunnel but I never tried it. > On a KL10 with dte interface a certain routing should be possible, but > that cannot yet be done I also restored a DN200 Pdp11 simh workstation > (see Anfu63) with terminals and peripherals with remote printing, > plotting etc. > The network looks like this from the multi kdp/dup node with 2 decnet > and 2 > anf10 active: > > > .net/t > [ANF10 network: connected to ANFW08(57), located at ANFW08(57), 5 nodes] > Node ANFW04 (53) 77(8), 55(8), 54(8) > Node ANFW05 (54) 77(8), 53(8) > Node ANFW06 (55) 77(8), 53(8) > Node ANFW08 (57) 77(10) > Node ANFU63 (77) 53(6), 54(6), 55(6), 57(6) > > [DECnet network: local node SWBW08, 8 reachable nodes in area 63] > Name Number Line Cost Hops L.Links Delay > SWBC01 (63.50) KDP-0-0 7 1 > SWBV89 (63.89) KDP-0-0 7 1 > SWBW01 (63.51) KDP-0-0 11 2 > SWBW04 (63.54) KDP-0-0 12 2 > SWBW05 (63.55) KDP-0-1 7 1 > SWBW06 (63.56) KDP-0-0 12 2 > SWBW08 (63.58) local 0 0 0 5000 > SWBX01 (63.41) KDP-0-0 11 2 > > .net > [ANF10 network: connected to ANFW08(57), located at ANFW08(57), 5 nodes] > Node ANFW04 (53) Swbw04 Tops10-7.07/34201 01-aug-20 > Node ANFW05 (54) Swbw05 Tops10-7.07/34201 01-aug-20 > Node ANFW06 (55) Swbw06 Tops10-7.07/34201 16-jul-20 > Node ANFW08 (57) SwbW08 Tops10-7.06/34100 27-Jul-20 > Node ANFU63 (77) DN200 V25(244) 02-Aug-89 > > [DECnet network: local node SWBW08, 8 reachable nodes in area 63] > SWBC01 SWBV89 SWBW01 SWBW04 SWBW05 SWBW06 SWBW08 SWBX01 > > Reindert

4 years, 4 months

ANF10 network --> Anf10 KL<>KS + DN200

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

L.S. Anf10 ethernet and sync lines are 2 separate domains and currently there are no standard interconnections. The (now late) Johnny Ericsson had an Anf10 tunnel but I never tried it. On a KL10 with dte interface a certain routing should be possible, but that cannot yet be done I also restored a DN200 Pdp11 simh workstation (see Anfu63) with terminals and peripherals with remote printing, plotting etc. The network looks like this from the multi kdp/dup node with 2 decnet and 2 anf10 active: .net/t [ANF10 network: connected to ANFW08(57), located at ANFW08(57), 5 nodes] Node ANFW04 (53) 77(8), 55(8), 54(8) Node ANFW05 (54) 77(8), 53(8) Node ANFW06 (55) 77(8), 53(8) Node ANFW08 (57) 77(10) Node ANFU63 (77) 53(6), 54(6), 55(6), 57(6) [DECnet network: local node SWBW08, 8 reachable nodes in area 63] Name Number Line Cost Hops L.Links Delay SWBC01 (63.50) KDP-0-0 7 1 SWBV89 (63.89) KDP-0-0 7 1 SWBW01 (63.51) KDP-0-0 11 2 SWBW04 (63.54) KDP-0-0 12 2 SWBW05 (63.55) KDP-0-1 7 1 SWBW06 (63.56) KDP-0-0 12 2 SWBW08 (63.58) local 0 0 0 5000 SWBX01 (63.41) KDP-0-0 11 2 .net [ANF10 network: connected to ANFW08(57), located at ANFW08(57), 5 nodes] Node ANFW04 (53) Swbw04 Tops10-7.07/34201 01-aug-20 Node ANFW05 (54) Swbw05 Tops10-7.07/34201 01-aug-20 Node ANFW06 (55) Swbw06 Tops10-7.07/34201 16-jul-20 Node ANFW08 (57) SwbW08 Tops10-7.06/34100 27-Jul-20 Node ANFU63 (77) DN200 V25(244) 02-Aug-89 [DECnet network: local node SWBW08, 8 reachable nodes in area 63] SWBC01 SWBV89 SWBW01 SWBW04 SWBW05 SWBW06 SWBW08 SWBX01 Reindert -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of G. Sent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2021 21:36 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] ANF10 network > It was not full mesh. ANF10 has routing with metrics like DECnet and > RDH even wrote a driver to talk over Ethernet between KL's. If anyone is curious, here below is a link to the ANF-to-Ethernet code by RDH. It contains some nice explanation too :) http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/bb-jr93k-bb/01/10,7/mon/d8eint.mac.html G.

4 years, 4 months

LSSM group visit today

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

LSSM hosted a CompSci class from Carnegie-Mellon University today, a for-credit class trip and project. They all learned the Forth language, rather well I might add, and wrote their own demos, on one of our PDP-11/70s. Here are some pics: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LSSM-CMU-2021/20211115_152707.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LSSM-CMU-2021/20211115_152757.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LSSM-CMU-2021/20211115_154319_03.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LSSM-CMU-2021/20211115_154355_01.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LSSM-CMU-2021/20211115_154451.jpg The 11/70 isn't pictured, but you all know what those look like. It's the one on the Wikipedia "PDP-11" page, though that's a very old picture from when it was at my home. (please excuse the falling front window sign, it's disintegrating and we're awaiting its replacement) I mention this here in case anyone is interested, and the machine, FANG::, is on HECnet whenever it's running. (which is my tenuous link to "on-topic") -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

4 years, 4 months

ANF10 network --> Kdp/Dup

by R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com

L.S. It is quite easy to expand this; currently I run 8 lines from the Kdp/dup and it works quite well. It needs a slight adaptation in Simh and another in Tops10, but you have to rebuild the monitor. Reindert From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2021 17:34 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: [HECnet] ANF10 network Supratim and I (with some help and encouragement from Peter) have set up an ANF10 network between the TOPS10 nodes VENTI and TWONKY. If you haven't heard of it, ANF10 (short for "A Networking Feature" - yes, really!) predates DECnet (I'm pretty sure, although I'm sure there will be debate about that) and provides mostly the same functions - remote terminals, file transfer, etc. ANF10 also has remote RJEs with card readers, line printers and terminal concentrators. .net/anf [ANF10 network: connected to VENTI(20), located at VENTI(20), 2 nodes] Node VENTI (20) SIMH KS10 VENTI 7.04 NET 14-Nov-21 Node TWONKY (37) SIMH KS10 TWONKY 7.04NET 15-Nov-21 It's possible to run ANF10 and DECnet both, and that's what we're doing so TWONKY and VENTI are also available on HECnet. If anybody else has a TOPS10 system and would like to connect it would be nice to add a few more nodes, but there is a problem. TOPS10 supports a maximum of two KDP/DUP lines on the KS10, and you need one for DECnet and the other for ANF10. That means each system can talk to at most one other ANF10 system, which limits the network size to two nodes. Bummer. There are a few options available - * DEC made some DNxx PDP-11 boxes that supported multiple ANF10 connections. We could set up one of these as a router. * Somebody could hack TOPS10 to allow more than two DUP lines. * Somebody could write a pyDECnet type gizmo that speaks ANF10. And there might be others that I haven't thought of yet. Any ideas? Bob

4 years, 4 months

DEfining HECnet node names on TOPS-10

by bob＠jfcl.com

Johnny's FIX.T20 HECnet node list works on TOPS-10 as well (same NCP, same commands), BUT there's an issue. What you'd really like to do is to put something like "TAKE HECNET.CMD" inside of [1,4]SYSTEM.CMD. The latter is executed automatically at boot time and this would let you define all HECnet nodes when you start up. However OPR (at least the version with TOPS-10 7.04) doesn't allow nested TAKE commands, so the "TAKE HECNET." inside of SYSTEM.CMD fails. Has somebody figured out a trick to get around this? Bob

4 years, 4 months

Tops-20 Terminal Buffers?

by tommytimesharing＠gmail.com

I was doing some more Kermit-20 measurements while I continue to debug the NRT code. Again, the fastest transfer rate that I could get out of a loopback pseudo-terminal connection was 129.16 KBps with a packet size of 140 characters (note previous post was in baud) .? Since this is not going outside of the PDP-10, one assumes that it would either be the top speed possible or near it as we are just talking shuttling data between buffers. I did a transfer of the same file to an iMac and was /very/ surprised to find that I got 4,000 byte packet size and a transfer rate 151.78 KBps.? That's right, using the NI resulted in a speed _increase_ of 17%.? I instrumented Kermit to report the allocated monitor buffers by line type and got the table below from various sign ons, viz: ? TTY line Type:?? FE?? PTY? NRT? TVT? CTM ? Input Buffers:??? 1??? 1??? 1??? 1??? 1 ? Output Buffers:?? 2??? 1??? 2??? 4??? 2 The abbreviations are as follows: * ?FE, Front End (RSX-20F) terminal (there is only one, CTY) * PTY, Pseudo-terminal * NRT, DECnet Network Remote Terminal * TVT, Internet Telnet Virtual Terminal * CTM, DECnet CTERM (I forget what CTERM abbreviates to) * LAT, Local Area Terminal (I don't currently have a working transport and client for this) So what we can see is that a TVT has four _times_ the buffers to play with than the PTY.? I don't currently know how large a terminal buffer is nor what else this might mean, but it is suggestive. For what it's worth, I also did comparison with FTP.? A data transfer in the RFC959 paradigm is acknowledged on the control channel with return code of 226.? There are no acknowledgements of the data channel; it's a straight fire hose.? As I expected, an FTP transfer blew Kermit right out of the water.? For the same sized file, the 20 measured an upload data rate of 1.09 *M*Bps with a 10 microsecond resolution (from first network write to return from closing the transfer 'socket').? The iMac measured 1.25 *M*Bps download. So it would appear that an FTP transfer is about 7.38 times faster, which is of interest, but otherwise perhaps irrelevant as they are not even remotely doing the same thing.? One expects the same result for DAP, once I get FTP up on that transport.? Again, we're not comparing apples to apples.

4 years, 4 months

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