John Wilson <wilson at dbit.com> writes:
From: "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system at TMESIS.COM>
Beware of the versions of VTTEST out there. Someone in VMS engineering had
tried to make it DECC compatible and horked it completely. I believe that
the version I have at the DECUS Library Compendium (DECUSlib.com) Freeware
CD version 4 is the only properly working version. Don't dowload any try
to use any of the later versions.
Not like I'm *looking* for trouble here but ... I was horrified by how badly
Ersatz-11(my PDP-11 emulator)'s VT100 emulation (which I've always thought was
good) was failing test #1 (Test of cursor movements), and then mystified when
I logged the output and saw it depending on behavior that I'm 100% sure I
tested on real VT100s centuries ago and convinced myself they don't work the
way the test expects. Then I got sidetracked with mounds of other fixes...
But today's exchange reminded me to unearth a real VT100 and schlep it out
within cable's reach of something which can telnet to great-escape.tmesis.com
and ... OK yes I have to investigate and fix my handling of setting tab stops
and of course I don't bother with smooth scroll at all (it's not reasonable
in text mode on the MDA/CGA/HGC/VGA) but other than that I was *delighted*
to see the real VT100-AA (with AVO) fail the tests in exactly the same way
as E11's VT100 emulation.
Which tests???
Am I insane, or do I have a counterfeit VT100 (would Eli Heffron steer me
wrong in ~1985?) or have these tests really not been tried on a plain ol'
VT100 in eons and there's bit rot no one has noticed? Or some fourth option
I'm not thinking of?
Are Eli Heffron still in biz?
I've not tried these test on a plain ol' VT100. The oldest kit I've used
was a VT220 and it passes all tests as expected.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
>John Wilson wrote:
I wrote:
- if hidden "wrap" flag is set and in final column and [?7h in effect, <CRLF>
- if in final column, set "wrap" flag for next time (otherwise clear it)
- write character, advancing cursor unless in final column
The plot sickens ... I was starting to feel paranoid and wanted a second
opinion. So I replaced the UA9636/UA9639 driver/receiver chips in the VT101
that's been kicking around my basement for 10+ years waiting for me to get
around to that. Now it fails VTTEST too, but not the same way as the VT100!
(Characters only at the margins in the failing test, but with gaps.) The
132-col tests are all wrong but that's no surprise since the VT101 has no AVO.
Some quick experimentation shows that in the VT101, the rules are the same
as the VT100 ones above as long as the cursor doesn't leave the line where
a char was written to column 80 for the first time. But if it does (by any
means -- DCA, ESC M, <LF>, ESC [B etc.) then the "wrap" flag is cleared,
whether a printing character is displayed on the other line or not.
OK so DEC's *own* VT100 knockoff isn't even VT100-compatible. Nap time!
At the risk of being extremely stupid, I would also appreciate
being able to run the same tests - just for the sake of knowing
what is being discussed. However, as a simple PDP-11 fellow,
I can't run VMS stuff and all I found was source for VMS.
Did you run the VTTEST code using a PDP-11? If so, which
operating system? Was that a real PDP-11 or E11?
If a PDP-11 was used, is there a link available to VTTEST.SAV
(source as well would be even more appreciated if it is in
MACRO-11 or FORTRAN) so I can run the VTTEST code?
Jerome Fine
I wrote:
- if hidden "wrap" flag is set and in final column and [?7h in effect, <CRLF>
- if in final column, set "wrap" flag for next time (otherwise clear it)
- write character, advancing cursor unless in final column
The plot sickens ... I was starting to feel paranoid and wanted a second
opinion. So I replaced the UA9636/UA9639 driver/receiver chips in the VT101
that's been kicking around my basement for 10+ years waiting for me to get
around to that. Now it fails VTTEST too, but not the same way as the VT100!
(Characters only at the margins in the failing test, but with gaps.) The
132-col tests are all wrong but that's no surprise since the VT101 has no AVO.
Some quick experimentation shows that in the VT101, the rules are the same
as the VT100 ones above as long as the cursor doesn't leave the line where
a char was written to column 80 for the first time. But if it does (by any
means -- DCA, ESC M, <LF>, ESC [B etc.) then the "wrap" flag is cleared,
whether a printing character is displayed on the other line or not.
OK so DEC's *own* VT100 knockoff isn't even VT100-compatible. Nap time!
John Wilson
D Bit
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se>
Could you expand on how it fails?
Duh, sorry!! Here's the most egregious case:
Test of autowrap, mixing control and print characters.
The left/right margins should have letters in order:
L l
M m
mN n
O o
P p
Q q
qR r
S s
T t
U u
uV v
W w
X x
Y y
yZ z
Push <RETURN>
(This is a screen copy/paste from E11 but it looks identical on the real VT100.)
I've apparently overwritten the log file that I'd marked up with what the
problem was, but IIRC it had to do with moving the cursor around in between
writes to the last column of the screen. My testing eons ago showed that on
a real VT100, writing printing characters is this simple:
- if hidden "wrap" flag is set and in final column and [?7h in effect, <CRLF>
- if in final column, set "wrap" flag for next time (otherwise clear it)
- write character, advancing cursor unless in final column
(Plus the real VT100 has a bug if autowrap happens at the bottom of the
screen when the scroll region ends higher up, where the cursor does the right
thing but the wrapped character appears at column 80 instead of column 1 --
but that can't be intentional and it's fixed on the later terminals.)
ESC 7 / ESC 8 save/restore the "wrap" flag but other than that it survives
most things.
But the VTTEST output seems to expect that other things you do will clear
the flag. The source code I found (maybe not official?) isn't particularly
commented so it's hard to tell which parts are supposed to be clever tests
and which are generic screen writes.
John Wilson
D Bit
On 2013-03-04 03:07, John Wilson wrote:
From: "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system at TMESIS.COM>
Beware of the versions of VTTEST out there. Someone in VMS engineering had
tried to make it DECC compatible and horked it completely. I believe that
the version I have at the DECUS Library Compendium (DECUSlib.com) Freeware
CD version 4 is the only properly working version. Don't dowload any try
to use any of the later versions.
Not like I'm *looking* for trouble here but ... I was horrified by how badly
Ersatz-11(my PDP-11 emulator)'s VT100 emulation (which I've always thought was
good) was failing test #1 (Test of cursor movements), and then mystified when
I logged the output and saw it depending on behavior that I'm 100% sure I
tested on real VT100s centuries ago and convinced myself they don't work the
way the test expects. Then I got sidetracked with mounds of other fixes...
But today's exchange reminded me to unearth a real VT100 and schlep it out
within cable's reach of something which can telnet to great-escape.tmesis.com
and ... OK yes I have to investigate and fix my handling of setting tab stops
and of course I don't bother with smooth scroll at all (it's not reasonable
in text mode on the MDA/CGA/HGC/VGA) but other than that I was *delighted*
to see the real VT100-AA (with AVO) fail the tests in exactly the same way
as E11's VT100 emulation.
Am I insane, or do I have a counterfeit VT100 (would Eli Heffron steer me
wrong in ~1985?) or have these tests really not been tried on a plain ol'
VT100 in eons and there's bit rot no one has noticed? Or some fourth option
I'm not thinking of?
Could you expand on how it fails?
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
From: "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system at TMESIS.COM>
Beware of the versions of VTTEST out there. Someone in VMS engineering had
tried to make it DECC compatible and horked it completely. I believe that
the version I have at the DECUS Library Compendium (DECUSlib.com) Freeware
CD version 4 is the only properly working version. Don't dowload any try
to use any of the later versions.
Not like I'm *looking* for trouble here but ... I was horrified by how badly
Ersatz-11(my PDP-11 emulator)'s VT100 emulation (which I've always thought was
good) was failing test #1 (Test of cursor movements), and then mystified when
I logged the output and saw it depending on behavior that I'm 100% sure I
tested on real VT100s centuries ago and convinced myself they don't work the
way the test expects. Then I got sidetracked with mounds of other fixes...
But today's exchange reminded me to unearth a real VT100 and schlep it out
within cable's reach of something which can telnet to great-escape.tmesis.com
and ... OK yes I have to investigate and fix my handling of setting tab stops
and of course I don't bother with smooth scroll at all (it's not reasonable
in text mode on the MDA/CGA/HGC/VGA) but other than that I was *delighted*
to see the real VT100-AA (with AVO) fail the tests in exactly the same way
as E11's VT100 emulation.
Am I insane, or do I have a counterfeit VT100 (would Eli Heffron steer me
wrong in ~1985?) or have these tests really not been tried on a plain ol'
VT100 in eons and there's bit rot no one has noticed? Or some fourth option
I'm not thinking of?
John Wilson
D Bit
>Mark Wickens wrote:
The original and up-to-date version is here: http://invisible-island.net/vttest/
Thomas Dickey uses it to test xterm...
>On 03/03/2013 21:46, Ian McLaughlin wrote:
Is this connectable via hecnet at all?
>On 2013-03-03, at 1:16 PM, "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system at TMESIS.COM> wrote:
>On 3.3.2013 21:53, Ian McLaughlin wrote:
Does anyone have a link to the script?
Don't know where it might be on HECnet, but it can be found on the VMS
Freeware site:
ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/freeware/vttest
I have it running as a service to all via telnet to great-escape.tmesis.com
Login with username: VTTEST
Beware of the versions of VTTEST out there. Someone in VMS engineering had
tried to make it DECC compatible and horked it completely. I believe that
the version I have at the DECUS Library Compendium (DECUSlib.com) Freeware
CD version 4 is the only properly working version. Don't dowload any try
to use any of the later versions.
Thank you for the above links. They certainly show that a great
deal of effort has taken place. However, after many attempts to
obtain code which can be easily executed on a PDP-11, I must
say that I have not found any at all.
I would hope that someone did take the code for VMS and other
systems and produced a version that can run under RT-11 on the
PDP-11. Does anyone know of such a version and if so, is a link
available as well?
Also helpful would be a version which can run under RSTS/E. The
RSTS/E operating system handles characters sent to the screen as
commands to the screen is handled quite differently from RT-11.
Jerome Fine
On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2013-03-03 23:21, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:
Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> writes:
"Origin mode test. This line should be at the bottom of the screen."
The line is at the top. gnome-terminal is _GREAT_
???
I think it's called irony. But I could be wrong...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Hello!
You aren't. All gnomes think they are like that. Its to boost their
self-esteem. A problem that desktop application has had for a very
long while. It is why it is not present in Slackware for example, and
is only tolerated on Solaris.
I won't go down that path on the others. And I'm not sure what is used
on the OS that Corey runs.
I do know that all problems everyone discovers with what Brian is
running will be Dave's fault.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On 2013-03-03 23:21, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:
Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> writes:
"Origin mode test. This line should be at the bottom of the screen."
The line is at the top. gnome-terminal is _GREAT_
???
I think it's called irony. But I could be wrong...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> writes:
"Origin mode test. This line should be at the bottom of the screen."
The line is at the top. gnome-terminal is _GREAT_
???
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
