On 2013-10-11 08:13, Mark Benson wrote:
On 11 Oct 2013, at 01:52, Daniel Soderstrom <snaggs at mac.com
<mailto:snaggs at mac.com>> wrote:
http://www.artmix.com/SATA_SCSI_AZMN_II_1.html
This adapter is available on ebay for $149 and he says they work well
in Vaxstations. He also has some which take CF flash cards.
Which is great, but again you run in to the snag that I've never seen a
SATA disk smaller than 40GB and the upper size limit on a VAXstation is
typically 18GB. Somewhat problematic.
Uh? What 18GB limit? I thought we had already established that there is no such limit.
There is a 1GB limit (approx) for the booting device on some older VAXstations, but that's the only limit I'm aware of. (And the limit is somewhat more complicated than that, but anyway...)
Johnny
On 2013-10-10 18:39, Hans Vlems wrote:
DEC had solid state disks, all das iirc
DEC had solid state disks already in the 70s. It was called the ML-11. Massbus interface even...
Johnny
*Van: *Johnny Billquist
*Verzonden: *donderdag 10 oktober 2013 11:29
*Aan: *hecnet at Update.UU.SE
*Beantwoorden: *hecnet at Update.UU.SE
*Cc: *Mark Wickens
*Onderwerp: *Re: [HECnet] SSD for Vax
On 2013-10-10 09:46, Mark Wickens wrote:
> On 10/10/2013 08:17, Daniel Soderstrom wrote:
>> Has anyone tries this? Running my Vaxstation non-stop reminds me how
>> much noise these old drives make.
>>
>> Has anyone tried SSD drives? Must be good for the PSU it terms of heat
>> and current draw.
>>
>> Daniel
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
> There has been very little success with IDE to SCSI converters on this
> age of machine.
Hmm. bad IDE to SCSI converters?
> Remember also that even 4000/90 vintage VAXstations generally have an
> upper limit of 18GB.
Uh? That got to be a limit in VMS in that case. I can't see how the
hardware would have that limit.
> I don't recall anyone even getting an IDE drive to work, let alone an
SSD.
IDE and SSD are two completely unrelated things as such. However, if the
SSD have an IDE interface, then you obviously need the IDE to SCSI
converter.
> Would love to be proved wrong however! I'm surprised someone hasn't
> written a software based SCSI drive emulator the same way that you get
> floppy emulators.
Probably mostly because of speed issues. You have some very tight timing
requirements, and a SCSI interface runs way faster than a floppy.
> Consider running the machine diskless, booted off the network with
> off-node disks.
That definitely also works.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On 11/10/2013 09:36, Mark Darvill wrote:
Flight was the "game" we played when we could get access to suitable hardware in DEC, i do remember playing it on a new vax9000 in multi user mode and it was hot! For those who have not come across the program, it was a multi user simulation with many planes and airfields which also ran over computers connected via decnet. There was also a toolkit to create your own planes and airfields.
http://www.tmk.com/ftp/vms-freeware/decwindows/
Found a copy above. Maybe another use for hecnet....
I've run this up on a Vaxstation 4000/90 and it was *ok*, I'm not sure I'd recommend it for anything without much grunt unless you like watching paint dry!
Very cool for the era however...
Mark.
--
http://www.wickensonline.co.ukhttp://hecnet.euhttp://declegacy.org.ukhttp://retrochallenge.nethttps://twitter.com/#!/%40urbancamo
He makes other cards as well. You have to look through the Japanese page as his english ome is under construction.
http://www.artmix.com/CF_powermon_II.html
Regards,
Daniel,
Sent from my iPad
On 11 Oct 2013, at 3:21 pm, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 Oct 2013, at 07:47, Daniel Soderstrom <snaggs at mac.com> wrote:
There are plenty of CF or SD cards under 18gb. Also, there must be some way of only using part of a drive, as these cards are used extensively in old Macs which have a 170mb boot drive limit.
I'm fully aware of that, in fact I plan to try using a 4GB CF card on my 4000/60 at some stage to see what it does. You linked to a *SATA* to SCSI adapter intended for use on hard drives?
I'm aware that SATA to CF/SD adapters are available, I used one for a while with a CF card. That may be an option but like others have said the reliability can be variable. Also some companies that offer embedded micro-PC stuff also sell 8GB and 16GB SATA SSDs that might be an option too, maybe? I am fairly sure I have a 16GB one spare somewhere.
On a Mac you can lay down partitions on the disk, the limit on a Mac IIRC is on partition size on the the early SCSI machines, not on the drive size (which I think is 2GB or 4GB on those due to limitations on the SCSI chip?). I am not aware of any way to make DEC software do that.
--
Mark Benson
http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK
Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.
Flight was the "game" we played when we could get access to suitable hardware in DEC, i do remember playing it on a new vax9000 in multi user mode and it was hot! For those who have not come across the program, it was a multi user simulation with many planes and airfields which also ran over computers connected via decnet. There was also a toolkit to create your own planes and airfields.
http://www.tmk.com/ftp/vms-freeware/decwindows/
Found a copy above. Maybe another use for hecnet....
Mark
On 10 Oct 2013, at 23:21, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Oct 10, 2013, at 5:01 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 10/10/2013 04:51 PM, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
Is there a collection of 'standard' games for VMS (VAX or AXP) =
downloadable from somewhere?
What I'm referring to is something like the 'bsdgames' package available =
on most Linux distros..
VMS, as well as the hardware it runs on, was a relatively expensive in its
day. VMS systems were NOT purchased for games play. There are games that
were produced and submitted to DECUS, but there's never been any definitive
packaging thereof.
Then again, CDC Cyber systems are *way* more expensive than any VAX, and nevertheless much of the innovation in games (especially role playing games and multi-user interactive games) was done there.
(Read up on "PLATO" for the details.)
Very true, but to be fair, PLATO was a teaching system, aimed (mostly) at
children.
Yes, PLATO was intended as a teaching system. Children? Not quite. It was aimed initially at college students, subsequently to both younger and older age groups, from elementary school to adult education. I think the majority of it was high school and beyond.
For example, the FAA used to do a lot of training on PLATO, until quite recently in fact.
paul
On 11/10/2013 08:40, Gregg Levine wrote:
Hello!
Mark, the drive didn't work? Or did it not work out in the target
system you had in mind? (Oddly enough I have one of those grouchy
systems here. (S)he runs my website and does some other things.)
I've been playing with the idea of tracking down a similar drive, but
in the 32GB size for it, and take the time to shoehorn in the OS and
then the website into it properly.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 3:35 AM, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> wrote:
On 11/10/2013 08:21, Mark Benson wrote:
On 11 Oct 2013, at 07:47, Daniel Soderstrom <snaggs at mac.com> wrote:
There are plenty of CF or SD cards under 18gb. Also, there must be some way
of only using part of a drive, as these cards are used extensively in old
Macs which have a 170mb boot drive limit.
I'm fully aware of that, in fact I plan to try using a 4GB CF card on my
4000/60 at some stage to see what it does. You linked to a *SATA* to SCSI
adapter intended for use on hard drives?
I'm aware that SATA to CF/SD adapters are available, I used one for a while
with a CF card. That may be an option but like others have said the
reliability can be variable. Also some companies that offer embedded
micro-PC stuff also sell 8GB and 16GB SATA SSDs that might be an option too,
maybe? I am fairly sure I have a 16GB one spare somewhere.
On a Mac you can lay down partitions on the disk, the limit on a Mac IIRC is
on partition size on the the early SCSI machines, not on the drive size
(which I think is 2GB or 4GB on those due to limitations on the SCSI chip?).
I am not aware of any way to make DEC software do that.
--
Mark Benson
http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK
Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.
I bought one of these a while back off eBay:
http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/images/20131011073307915.png
It is a SAMSUNG 16GB Flash SSD MCAQE16G8APR-0XA 1.8" SSD 3.3V ATA5 UDMA66
This was with the intention of using it as the replacement drive in a Sun
Ultra 5 workstation. It didn't work, but I guess I wouldn't rule it out in
other applications.
Regards, Mark.
--
http://www.wickensonline.co.ukhttp://hecnet.euhttp://declegacy.org.ukhttp://retrochallenge.nethttps://twitter.com/#!/%40urbancamo
It didn't work in the Sun Ultra 5 - I've not tried it in anything else. I do have a candidate system to try, so I'll let you know...
--
http://www.wickensonline.co.ukhttp://hecnet.euhttp://declegacy.org.ukhttp://retrochallenge.nethttps://twitter.com/#!/%40urbancamo
Hello!
Mark, the drive didn't work? Or did it not work out in the target
system you had in mind? (Oddly enough I have one of those grouchy
systems here. (S)he runs my website and does some other things.)
I've been playing with the idea of tracking down a similar drive, but
in the 32GB size for it, and take the time to shoehorn in the OS and
then the website into it properly.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 3:35 AM, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> wrote:
On 11/10/2013 08:21, Mark Benson wrote:
On 11 Oct 2013, at 07:47, Daniel Soderstrom <snaggs at mac.com> wrote:
There are plenty of CF or SD cards under 18gb. Also, there must be some way
of only using part of a drive, as these cards are used extensively in old
Macs which have a 170mb boot drive limit.
I'm fully aware of that, in fact I plan to try using a 4GB CF card on my
4000/60 at some stage to see what it does. You linked to a *SATA* to SCSI
adapter intended for use on hard drives?
I'm aware that SATA to CF/SD adapters are available, I used one for a while
with a CF card. That may be an option but like others have said the
reliability can be variable. Also some companies that offer embedded
micro-PC stuff also sell 8GB and 16GB SATA SSDs that might be an option too,
maybe? I am fairly sure I have a 16GB one spare somewhere.
On a Mac you can lay down partitions on the disk, the limit on a Mac IIRC is
on partition size on the the early SCSI machines, not on the drive size
(which I think is 2GB or 4GB on those due to limitations on the SCSI chip?).
I am not aware of any way to make DEC software do that.
--
Mark Benson
http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK
Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.
I bought one of these a while back off eBay:
http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/images/20131011073307915.png
It is a SAMSUNG 16GB Flash SSD MCAQE16G8APR-0XA 1.8" SSD 3.3V ATA5 UDMA66
This was with the intention of using it as the replacement drive in a Sun
Ultra 5 workstation. It didn't work, but I guess I wouldn't rule it out in
other applications.
Regards, Mark.
--
http://www.wickensonline.co.ukhttp://hecnet.euhttp://declegacy.org.ukhttp://retrochallenge.nethttps://twitter.com/#!/%40urbancamo
On 11/10/2013 08:21, Mark Benson wrote:
On 11 Oct 2013, at 07:47, Daniel Soderstrom <snaggs at mac.com> wrote:
There are plenty of CF or SD cards under 18gb. Also, there must be some way of only using part of a drive, as these cards are used extensively in old Macs which have a 170mb boot drive limit.
I'm fully aware of that, in fact I plan to try using a 4GB CF card on my 4000/60 at some stage to see what it does. You linked to a *SATA* to SCSI adapter intended for use on hard drives?
I'm aware that SATA to CF/SD adapters are available, I used one for a while with a CF card. That may be an option but like others have said the reliability can be variable. Also some companies that offer embedded micro-PC stuff also sell 8GB and 16GB SATA SSDs that might be an option too, maybe? I am fairly sure I have a 16GB one spare somewhere.
On a Mac you can lay down partitions on the disk, the limit on a Mac IIRC is on partition size on the the early SCSI machines, not on the drive size (which I think is 2GB or 4GB on those due to limitations on the SCSI chip?). I am not aware of any way to make DEC software do that.
--
Mark Benson
http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK
Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.
Digital Unix on Alpha seems to be more tolerant with hard drives than early OpenVMS releases.
Mark.
--
http://www.wickensonline.co.ukhttp://hecnet.euhttp://declegacy.org.ukhttp://retrochallenge.nethttps://twitter.com/#!/%40urbancamo
On 11/10/2013 08:21, Mark Benson wrote:
On 11 Oct 2013, at 07:47, Daniel Soderstrom <snaggs at mac.com> wrote:
There are plenty of CF or SD cards under 18gb. Also, there must be some way of only using part of a drive, as these cards are used extensively in old Macs which have a 170mb boot drive limit.
I'm fully aware of that, in fact I plan to try using a 4GB CF card on my 4000/60 at some stage to see what it does. You linked to a *SATA* to SCSI adapter intended for use on hard drives?
I'm aware that SATA to CF/SD adapters are available, I used one for a while with a CF card. That may be an option but like others have said the reliability can be variable. Also some companies that offer embedded micro-PC stuff also sell 8GB and 16GB SATA SSDs that might be an option too, maybe? I am fairly sure I have a 16GB one spare somewhere.
On a Mac you can lay down partitions on the disk, the limit on a Mac IIRC is on partition size on the the early SCSI machines, not on the drive size (which I think is 2GB or 4GB on those due to limitations on the SCSI chip?). I am not aware of any way to make DEC software do that.
--
Mark Benson
http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK
Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.
I bought one of these a while back off eBay:
http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/images/20131011073307915.png
It is a SAMSUNG 16GB Flash SSD MCAQE16G8APR-0XA 1.8" SSD 3.3V ATA5 UDMA66
This was with the intention of using it as the replacement drive in a Sun Ultra 5 workstation. It didn't work, but I guess I wouldn't rule it out in other applications.
Regards, Mark.
--
http://www.wickensonline.co.ukhttp://hecnet.euhttp://declegacy.org.ukhttp://retrochallenge.nethttps://twitter.com/#!/%40urbancamo
Well I'm busy porting Super Star Trek to Javascript which is somewhat
challenging. An update of the ((PDP) Fortran) version (that you can run on
RULLFS by logging as SST) has already been ported to C, but because everything
is event-driven in a browser, the next step is not that easy.
On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 02:21:16AM +0200, Sampsa Laine wrote:
Next challenge is to use JS to turn ReGIS into SVG and draw that :)
