The first DEC system I worked with was a pdp-11/40. It had a CR11, an LP11, one RK05, an RX01 and a DECtape I unit. It did have MMU but just 32 kB core, which was expanded to 64 KB core. That allowed KED to run with RT-11 (V3, V4).
I did experiment with RSX-11D but preferred RT-11. The pdp served in a laboratory, it got an LPS-11 interface later on.
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
Mark, running a vt100 80 x 24 screen on a blackberry (not a Torch) is problematic.
OTOH 20 years ago I wouldn't have dreamt of being able to power down an XP1000 sitting on my couch and using a phone as a remote terminal!
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 12:32:11
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE<hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: Re: [HECnet] PDP Ignorance
On 15 Jul 2011, at 12:24, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
A notes server would be fine. Answering maillists on a blackberry is problematic. The thing only allows new text between the header and the original text, i.e. forces top posting.
WTH Is it with mobile devices doing that :( I have to cut and paste my sig on nearly every mailing lust when I answer on iPhone :(
There is a terminal emulator available for it, vt100 compatible so VAXnotes* is fine.
Using a terminal emulator on a phone is torture, seriously. I have Telnet and SSH clients on iPhone and even though they offer extra keys it's not enough to be usable :(
--
Mark Benson
http://markbenson.org/bloghttp://twitter.com/MDBenson
On 15 Jul 2011, at 12:24, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
A notes server would be fine. Answering maillists on a blackberry is problematic. The thing only allows new text between the header and the original text, i.e. forces top posting.
WTH Is it with mobile devices doing that :( I have to cut and paste my sig on nearly every mailing lust when I answer on iPhone :(
There is a terminal emulator available for it, vt100 compatible so VAXnotes* is fine.
Using a terminal emulator on a phone is torture, seriously. I have Telnet and SSH clients on iPhone and even though they offer extra keys it's not enough to be usable :(
--
Mark Benson
http://markbenson.org/bloghttp://twitter.com/MDBenson
A notes server would be fine. Answering maillists on a blackberry is problematic. The thing only allows new text between the header and the original text, i.e. forces top posting.
There is a terminal emulator available for it, vt100 compatible so VAXnotes* is fine.
Hans
* couldn't resist that ;-)
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
CORAL66 is an Algol descendant. IIRC it was a prerequisite for defense contractors in the UK.
Hans
PS
Apologies for top posting but this stream is getting quite long on a phone to read..
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Koning <paul_koning at dell.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 20:52:30
To: <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: Re: [HECnet] PDP Ignorance
On Jul 14, 2011, at 4:53 PM, Steve Davidson wrote:
Mark,
Rare - probably depends on where you can look! :-)
RT-11 will run on any of the PDP-11's. The RSX-11 family of OS's has
specific requirements about memory amounts and memory management thus
the SPD should be reviewed. RSTS/E (and M+) require memory management
hardware.
RSTS V4 (not /E) runs on a non-MMU machine, but it's very limited -- Basic-Plus only.
The Pro-Series of systems could also be looked at for RT-11 and RSX
(P/OS). In this space the Pro-380 is probably preferred. The problem
here is finding a network card (DECNA) that does not cost as much (or
more) than the rest of the system.
Indeed. And they are quite slow because of the pathetic architecture. Also, all you get is the console display, unless you can find one of the 4-line UART cards that is so obscure that it's hard even to find a manual for it, or a reference to its name (it's PC3XC-BA... I had to look for that).
I did a RSTS port, but that wasn't distributed.
Disks on real hardware will be small and slow (an possibly expensive).
On emulated systems they can be much bigger and many many times faster.
The books you have detail the degree of expandability for each of these
HW platforms (except maybe the Pro). You will be surprised at just how
much can be done with these systems. The speed will be another story.
Pro expansion is possible in theory, out of the question in practice. The needed details are undocumented in critical places.
RT-11 Languages (from memory):
MACRO-11
APL-11
BASIC-11
MU/BASIC-11
BASIC-PLUS/RT-11
FORTRAN-IV (FORTRAN 66 STD)
PDP-11/C
DECUS-C
Also (via DECUS): Forth and Algol
RSX-11 Languages (also from memory):
MACRO-11
APL-11
BASIC-PLUS-2
FORTRAN-IV (FORTRAN 66 STD)
FORTRAN-77
PDP-11/C
DECUS-C
COBOL-81, COBOL-11
And Coral-66, whatever that is.
RSTS/E Languages (also from memory):
The same as RSX-11 for the most part.
That, plus BASIC-PLUS (the ancestor of BASIC-PLUS-2, but an interactive interpreter). And Forth (a port of the RT one with FIG-Forth features added, included in the most recent releases, unsupported). There was a port of DECUS Algol but some of the pieces may have gotten lost; I had it at DEC but I can't find some of the pieces, at least not all the sources. Also Dibol.
And don't forget TECO, for any PDP-11 and any OS (except DOS and probably DSM).
paul
On 15/07/11 10:59, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2011-07-15 11.00, Kari Uusim ki wrote:
On 15.7.2011 4:36, Johnny Billquist wrote:
[...]
But since this is now starting to spin off into rather much PDP-11
stuff, maybe we should get this to some other place as well?
Anyone have any good suggestions? Otherwise I'd suggest alt.sys.pdp11 on
internet news.
Johnny
.
There seems to be many interesting discussions popping up every now and
then. Would a DEC Notes solution be a feasible one? Very easy to use and
as it supports DECnet it will be available for anyone on HECnet.
...who is running VMS... ;-)
But in a way yes, Notes would work just fine as well.
I could also create a separate list where we could move discussions that are not of general HECnet nature, but anything that spins off from here, and to which people who really want to, could subscribe to.
Johnny
As much as I'd like an an 'age-appropriate' solution in the form of a Notes discussion I'd say that a separate email list would be more practical day-to-day for most people.
Good idea. Seconded.
Mark.
On 15 Jul 2011, at 10:59, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
I could also create a separate list where we could move discussions that are not of general HECnet nature, but anything that spins off from here, and to which people who really want to, could subscribe to.
I wholeheartedly support this motion, mostly for the sake of everyone else ;)
DEC-discuss list, maybe?
--
Mark Benson
http://markbenson.org/bloghttp://twitter.com/MDBenson
On 2011-07-15 11.00, Kari Uusim ki wrote:
On 15.7.2011 4:36, Johnny Billquist wrote:
[...]
But since this is now starting to spin off into rather much PDP-11
stuff, maybe we should get this to some other place as well?
Anyone have any good suggestions? Otherwise I'd suggest alt.sys.pdp11 on
internet news.
Johnny
.
There seems to be many interesting discussions popping up every now and
then. Would a DEC Notes solution be a feasible one? Very easy to use and
as it supports DECnet it will be available for anyone on HECnet.
...who is running VMS... ;-)
But in a way yes, Notes would work just fine as well.
I could also create a separate list where we could move discussions that are not of general HECnet nature, but anything that spins off from here, and to which people who really want to, could subscribe to.
Johnny
On 15.7.2011 4:36, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2011-07-15 03.24, Zane H. Healy wrote:
At 1:03 AM +0200 7/15/11, Johnny Billquist wrote:
RSTS/E and RSX-11M+ (as well as Unix) do require an MMU, and some
additional things to run though.
RSTS/E offers some real challenges if installing on real hardware. While
I've installed RT-11 and RSX-11M+ off of CD-ROM, I'm not sure it's
possible with RSTS/E. Another tricky situation I ran into was that
RSTS/E would install off 4mm DAT tapes, but the layered products,
especially DECnet/E wouldn't.
I seem to remember that some installation pieces in RSTS/E actually
requires that tape drives identify as the "correct" models, or RSTS/E
will refuse. I don't remember the details, but I think John Wilson
documented in the e11 manual.
Disks on real hardware will be small and slow (an possibly expensive).
Well, not neccesarily true. There are SCSI controllers, and large fast
disks. But they are often not free.
How large disks you can actually use will also depend on what OS you
run, with RT-11 being the most limited.
What does the availability of disks look like for someone looking to put
together a PDP-11 at this point? Unless you're like a lot of us here,
and have been doing this for a long time, and built up a supply of
spares years ago, such things can be hard to come by. Even Narrow SCSI
disks are getting harder to obtain.
I have not had any problems with rather modern SCSI disks. No need to
get narrow disks. They are supposed to be backwards compatible anyway.
I have some wide RZ disks in storageworks bricks on my 11/93 as well as
my 11/84.
Just don't hope for anything if you have differential SCSI.
I also have RA disks running, and RL, but nothing else. I don't like RD
disks because they are small, and *slow*, if you are even lucky enough
to get them running.
If you have *ANY* third party controller, you're likely to have a
slightly easier time. Any MFM disks will be hard to find, and unlike
when I was putting my first system together ESDI disks are likely to be
even harder to get. While a SCSI board might set you back a nice chunk
of change, it's likely to be the best path. Besides then you can hook up
a CD-ROM drive.
Yes.
On emulated systems they can be much bigger and many many times faster.
With much more ease, and less cost, yes.
Back in the 90's I swore running on real hardware was the way to go.
Now, with a nice collection of spare parts, I think Emulation would have
been better! Not as fun, but a Linux box running an emulator takes up a
lot less space! Thankfully that's the route I went with the PDP-10...
He. A PDP-10 takes a little space, even for a KS...
But since this is now starting to spin off into rather much PDP-11
stuff, maybe we should get this to some other place as well?
Anyone have any good suggestions? Otherwise I'd suggest alt.sys.pdp11 on
internet news.
Johnny
.
There seems to be many interesting discussions popping up every now and then. Would a DEC Notes solution be a feasible one? Very easy to use and as it supports DECnet it will be available for anyone on HECnet.
Kari
On 2011-07-15 03.24, Zane H. Healy wrote:
At 1:03 AM +0200 7/15/11, Johnny Billquist wrote:
RSTS/E and RSX-11M+ (as well as Unix) do require an MMU, and some
additional things to run though.
RSTS/E offers some real challenges if installing on real hardware. While
I've installed RT-11 and RSX-11M+ off of CD-ROM, I'm not sure it's
possible with RSTS/E. Another tricky situation I ran into was that
RSTS/E would install off 4mm DAT tapes, but the layered products,
especially DECnet/E wouldn't.
I seem to remember that some installation pieces in RSTS/E actually requires that tape drives identify as the "correct" models, or RSTS/E will refuse. I don't remember the details, but I think John Wilson documented in the e11 manual.
Disks on real hardware will be small and slow (an possibly expensive).
Well, not neccesarily true. There are SCSI controllers, and large fast
disks. But they are often not free.
How large disks you can actually use will also depend on what OS you
run, with RT-11 being the most limited.
What does the availability of disks look like for someone looking to put
together a PDP-11 at this point? Unless you're like a lot of us here,
and have been doing this for a long time, and built up a supply of
spares years ago, such things can be hard to come by. Even Narrow SCSI
disks are getting harder to obtain.
I have not had any problems with rather modern SCSI disks. No need to get narrow disks. They are supposed to be backwards compatible anyway.
I have some wide RZ disks in storageworks bricks on my 11/93 as well as my 11/84.
Just don't hope for anything if you have differential SCSI.
I also have RA disks running, and RL, but nothing else. I don't like RD disks because they are small, and *slow*, if you are even lucky enough to get them running.
If you have *ANY* third party controller, you're likely to have a
slightly easier time. Any MFM disks will be hard to find, and unlike
when I was putting my first system together ESDI disks are likely to be
even harder to get. While a SCSI board might set you back a nice chunk
of change, it's likely to be the best path. Besides then you can hook up
a CD-ROM drive.
Yes.
On emulated systems they can be much bigger and many many times faster.
With much more ease, and less cost, yes.
Back in the 90's I swore running on real hardware was the way to go.
Now, with a nice collection of spare parts, I think Emulation would have
been better! Not as fun, but a Linux box running an emulator takes up a
lot less space! Thankfully that's the route I went with the PDP-10...
He. A PDP-10 takes a little space, even for a KS...
But since this is now starting to spin off into rather much PDP-11 stuff, maybe we should get this to some other place as well?
Anyone have any good suggestions? Otherwise I'd suggest alt.sys.pdp11 on internet news.
Johnny
