16 Dec
2021
16 Dec
'21
11:41 a.m.
Sorry, misread the header so my assumptions were wrong
Question remains, how did you get Decnet 3.0 running and did you obtain the necessary
patch.
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of R.
Voorhorst
Sent: Thursday, 16 December, 2021 10:35
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.5 (Was Re: [HECnet] Oldest VAX/VMS for VAX-11/730 on
HECNET) --> what is this?
Supratim,
The log is somewhat strange: Decnet 3.0 is phase III, but your executor listings gives
management version 4.0.0 and routing version 2.0.0 and type nonrouting IV.
Besides, Decnet 3.0 is phase-III and will not support Ethernet, ever (yet you have Una-0
line/circuit), so there is somewhat wrong in your total decnet configuration or you are
trying out something unmentioned yet.
My executor for Decnet 3.0 gives the following:
Node Volatile Characteristics as of 16-DEC-2021 10:15:29
Executor node = 84 (SWBV84)
Identification = SWBV84 DNET-3.0 R-III (63).84
Management version = V3.0.0
Incoming timer = 45
Outgoing timer = 45
NSP version = V3.2.0
Maximum links = 32
Delay factor = 64
Delay weight = 2
Inactivity timer = 60
Retransmit factor = 10
Routing version = V1.3.0
Type = routing
Routing timer = 600
Maximum address = 255
Maximum circuits = 32
Maximum cost = 40
Maximum hops = 9
Maximum visits = 10
Maximum buffers = 128
Buffer size = 576
Default access = incoming and outgoing
But it will not work because we only have a licemse for another version.
In the id I placed area 63 as memento as it will communicate with phase-IV routers up to
address 255 in that area and these nodes will assume node 84 to be present in that area.
I am curious how you got an operating license to make this work or is that what creates
the flaws?
Reindert
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
[mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Supratim Sanyal
Sent: Thursday, 16 December, 2021 01:01
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Subject: DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.5 (Was Re: [HECnet] Oldest VAX/VMS for VAX-11/730 on
HECNET)
OK, so I fired up a VAX/VMS 3.5 node and gave it the address 42 (just a coincidence, not
an answer to any question). I demoted it to an end-node on a dedicated virtual ethernet
adapter for the circuit with DECnet/Python. No adjacency is established. A tshark
indicates DECnet-VAX V3.0 is appearing as 1.42 on the wire. Since there is no way to ask
DECnet-VAX V3.0 to pretend it is 31.42, I am not sure what the next step, if any, might be
to hook this up to my area on HECnet.
tshark dump is at
https://www.dropbox.com/s/40hvr4x6iq3esl8/tshark-31.12-31.42-DECnet-VAX-V3.…
. Maybe Paul has some advice?
Note: When DECnet-VAX V3.0 was configured as a L1 router, it oscillated between
"circuit up" and "line fault" every few seconds.
$ mc ncp show exec char
Node Volatile Characteristics as of 14-DEC-1984 23:46:34
Executor node = 42 (XXXV)
Identification = DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.5
Management version = V4.0.0
Incoming timer = 45
Outgoing timer = 45
NSP version = V3.2.0
Maximum links = 32
Delay factor = 80
Delay weight = 5
Inactivity timer = 60
Retransmit factor = 10
Routing version = V2.0.0
Type = nonrouting IV
Routing timer = 600
Broadcast routing timer = 40
Maximum address = 1023
Maximum circuits = 16
Maximum cost = 1022
Maximum hops = 30
Maximum visits = 63
Max broadcast nonrouters = 64
Max broadcast routers = 32
Maximum buffers = 100
Buffer size = 576
Nonprivileged user id = DECNET
Default access = incoming and outgoing
Pipeline quota = 1200
$ mc ncp show circuit una-0 char
Circuit Volatile Characteristics as of 14-DEC-1984 23:47:01
Circuit = UNA-0
State = on
Service = disabled
Cost = 3
Router priority = 64
Hello timer = 15
Type = Ethernet
$ mc ncp show line una-0 char
Line Volatile Characteristics as of 14-DEC-1984 23:47:20
Line = UNA-0
Receive buffers = 4
Controller = normal
Protocol = Ethernet
Service timer = 4000
Hardware address = AA-00-04-00-2A-7C
Buffer size = 1498
Regards,
Supratim
On 12/9/21 7:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Dec 9, 2021, at 6:02 PM, Johnny Billquist <mailto:bqt at softjar.se> <bqt at
softjar.se> wrote:
On 2021-12-09 23:52, Mark J. Blair wrote:
So, basically like bang paths in uucp? Maybe I will play with that sometime!
Yes. But depending on application, it might be that all machines have to be up and running
at the moment you're trying to use it, as opposed to UUCP which was store and
forward.
Right. Roughly speaking, the sending application sees that there are multiple nodes, and
that it uses PMR for this. It connects to the first of the nodes, object 63. It then
sends it the rest of the connect information. PMR picks off the next node. If that's
the last node, it connects to the requested object, otherwise again to another PMR.
VMS has PMR-like capability for network file access because RMS recognizes file names with
node name prefixes, so it's an automatic consequence of that feature. RSTS NFT (the
application which does network file access) doesn't support PMR as far as I remember.
So if you have VMS nodes around you can chain node names in file access, with RSTS-only
you cannot.
MAIL does it internally I think. Some vague memory says that RSTS network terminal
("set host") has PMR support, I need to look.
I'll definitely add PMR to PyDECnet at some point fairly soon.
paul
--
16 Dec
16 Dec
5:08 p.m.
On 12/16/2021 05:41, R. Voorhorst wrote:
Question? remains, how did you get Decnet 3.0 running
and did you
obtain the necessary patch.
Yes, applied the license. I? chose VAX/VMS 3.5 because in? March of 2020
you had gone as far as getting a license error on VMS3.0 that said it
needed VMS3.4+. I also tried to use the licensed NETACP.EXE on vms3.0,
does not look promising, says it has problems loading. At this point,
Cisco may be? the answer with the nifty feature for DECnet NAT, I will
explore it sometime. Anyway, my experiments are here if you or anyone is
interested:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/x4e6ie4lrwi9wns/AABMogcguAcL8xPwMIDxOtNva?dl=0
On 12/16/2021 04:55, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Uh? The mac address AA-00-04-00-2A-7C means it has
address 31.42.
Just sayin...
It's forced at the Linux/SimH level.
On 12/15/2021 20:05, Paul Koning wrote:
You've got to set MAX AREA large enough; 63 is the
obvious value.?
With it not set, the system apparently is defaulting it to 1, so
when
you gave it a node address without area number it defaulted the area
number to 1, which of course can't work.
There is no option, at least in NCP, for any Area parameters.
NCP>help set exec
SET
? EXECUTOR
??? Use the SET EXECUTOR command to create or modify parameters in the
??? volatile database which controls the network on the executor node. Use
??? the DEFINE EXECUTOR command to create or modify parameters in the
??? volatile database which controls the network on the executor node.
??? SET???? EXECUTOR??????? (parameters ...)
??? Additional information available:
??? ALL??????? ADDRESS node-address? BROADCAST ROUTING TIMER
??? BUFFER SIZE number??? COUNTER TIMER seconds DEFAULT ACCESS
??? DELAY FACTOR????????? DELAY WEIGHT????????? IDENTIFICATION
??? INACTIVITY TIMER????? INCOMING TIMER??????? MAXIMUM ADDRESS
??? MAXIMUM BROADCAST NONROUTERS???? MAXIMUM BROADCAST ROUTERS
??? MAXIMUM BUFFERS?????? MAXIMUM CIRCUITS????? MAXIMUM COST
??? MAXIMUM HOPS????????? MAXIMUM LINKS???????? MAXIMUM VISITS
??? NONPRIVILEGED???????? OUTGOING TIMER??????? PIPELINE QUOTA
??? PRIVILEGED RETRANSMIT FACTOR???? ROUTING TIMER
??? SEGMENT BUFFER SIZE?? STATE????? SUBADDRESS range????? TYPE
??? Examples?? NODE
SET EXECUTOR Subtopic?
SET EXECUTOR Subtopic? ex
SET
? EXECUTOR
??? Examples
?????????? NCP>SET EXECUTOR ADDRESS 11 BUFFER SIZE 576
?????????????? This command sets the executor node's address to 11 and
buffer
?????????????? size to 576 bytes.
?????????? NCP>SET EXECUTOR STATE ON
?????????????? This command sets the executor node's operational state
to ON.
SET EXECUTOR Subtopic? ^Z
NCP>exit
$
6:54 p.m.
You may have a license problem.
If you have a DECnet that supports Ethernet, it must be Phase IV (or V, of course). That
means it is required to know about areas. If you have a version that doesn't deal
with areas, either it is terminally broken or it is crippled in a way that disables
multi-area configurations. You'll need to fix that in order to use it on HECnet.
While it's certainly possible to put a Phase III node anywhere in HECnet, with the
reachability limitations that Phase III has, it isn't possible to use a "broken
areas" Phase "IV" node at all. (Well, unless you can connect it into area
1, I suppose.)
paul
On Dec 16, 2021, at 11:08 AM, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
On 12/16/2021 05:41, R. Voorhorst wrote:
Question remains, how did you get Decnet 3.0
running and did you obtain the necessary patch.
Yes, applied the license. I chose
VAX/VMS 3.5 because in March of 2020 you had gone as far as getting a license error on
VMS3.0 that said it needed VMS3.4+. I also tried to use the licensed NETACP.EXE on vms3.0,
does not look promising, says it has problems loading. At this point, Cisco may be the
answer with the nifty feature for DECnet NAT, I will explore it sometime. Anyway, my
experiments are here if you or anyone is interested:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/x4e6ie4lrwi9wns/AABMogcguAcL8xPwMIDxOtNva?dl=0
On 12/16/2021 04:55, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Uh? The mac address AA-00-04-00-2A-7C means it
has address 31.42. Just sayin...
It's forced at the Linux/SimH level.
On 12/15/2021 20:05, Paul Koning wrote:
You've got to set MAX AREA large enough; 63
is the obvious value. With it not set, the system apparently is defaulting it to 1, so
when you gave it a node address without area number it defaulted the area number to 1,
which of course can't work.
There is no option, at least in NCP, for any Area parameters.
NCP>help set exec
SET
EXECUTOR
Use the SET EXECUTOR command to create or modify parameters in the
volatile database which controls the network on the executor node. Use
the DEFINE EXECUTOR command to create or modify parameters in the
volatile database which controls the network on the executor node.
SET EXECUTOR (parameters ...)
Additional information available:
ALL ADDRESS node-address BROADCAST ROUTING TIMER
BUFFER SIZE number COUNTER TIMER seconds DEFAULT ACCESS
DELAY FACTOR DELAY WEIGHT IDENTIFICATION
INACTIVITY TIMER INCOMING TIMER MAXIMUM ADDRESS
MAXIMUM BROADCAST NONROUTERS MAXIMUM BROADCAST ROUTERS
MAXIMUM BUFFERS MAXIMUM CIRCUITS MAXIMUM COST
MAXIMUM HOPS MAXIMUM LINKS MAXIMUM VISITS
NONPRIVILEGED OUTGOING TIMER PIPELINE QUOTA
PRIVILEGED RETRANSMIT FACTOR ROUTING TIMER
SEGMENT BUFFER SIZE STATE SUBADDRESS range TYPE
Examples NODE
SET EXECUTOR Subtopic?
SET EXECUTOR Subtopic? ex
SET
EXECUTOR
Examples
NCP>SET EXECUTOR ADDRESS 11 BUFFER SIZE 576
This command sets the executor node's address to 11 and buffer
size to 576 bytes.
NCP>SET EXECUTOR STATE ON
This command sets the executor node's operational state to ON.
SET EXECUTOR Subtopic? ^Z
NCP>exit
$
7:52 p.m.
BTW, the "BE-X083A-BE - DECNET-VAX FULL FUNCTION" thing is not a tape;
after failing? to mount? it as a tape numerous times, a? "od -a" dump
looked like a disk to me, and guess? what,? it? mounted? as? a RD54.
That is the license? I used and looks like it patched to DECnet v3.5. I
may have a pretty? unique installation then, to be preserved.
http://iamvirtual.ca/VAX11/VAX-11-software.html
Session log:
^M$ @sys$update:vmsinstal.com NETRTG031.A^M
^M
^M
??????? VAX/VMS Software Product Installation Procedure^M
^M
^M
It is 14-DEC-1984 at 22:33.^M
Enter a question mark (?) at any time for help.^M
^M
* Are you satisfied with the backup of your system disk [YES]? ^M
* Where will the distribution volumes be mounted: sys$manager:^M
^M
%VMSINSTAL-E-NOPRODS, None of the specified products were found.^M
^M
Enter the products to be installed from the next distribution volume set.^M
* Products [EXIT]: *^M
^M
The following products will be installed:^M
^M
? NETRTG V3.1^M
? NETRTG V4.0^M
^M
^M
??????? Beginning installation of NETRTG V3.1 at 22:33^M
^M
%VMSINSTAL-I-RESTORE, Restoring product saveset A...^M
^M
??? DECnet-VAX Full Function Key installation^M
^M
%PATCH-I-NOLCL, image does not contain local symbols^M
%PATCH-I-NOGBL, some or all global symbols not accessible^M
%PATCH-I-WRTFIL, updating image file
VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD.NETRTG031]NETACP.EXE;1^M
%VMSINSTAL-I-MOVEFILES, Files will now be moved to their target
directories...^M
^M
??????? Successful installation of NETRTG V3.1 at 22:33^M
^M
^M
^M
??????? Beginning installation of NETRTG V4.0 at 22:33^M
^M
%VMSINSTAL-I-RESTORE, Restoring product saveset A...^M
%NETRTG-E-BADVMS, This kit requires version 4.0 of VMS.^M
%VMSINSTAL-E-STEP8FAIL, The installation of NETRTG V4.0 has failed.^M
^M
Enter the products to be installed from the next distribution volume set.^M
* Products [EXIT]: ^M
^M
??????? VMSINSTAL procedure done at 22:33^M
^M
On 12/16/2021 12:54, Paul Koning wrote:
You may have a license problem.
If you have a DECnet that supports Ethernet, it must be Phase IV (or V, of course). That
means it is required to know about areas. If you have a version that doesn't deal
with areas, either it is terminally broken or it is crippled in a way that disables
multi-area configurations. You'll need to fix that in order to use it on HECnet.
While it's certainly possible to put a Phase III node anywhere in HECnet, with the
reachability limitations that Phase III has, it isn't possible to use a "broken
areas" Phase "IV" node at all. (Well, unless you can connect it into area
1, I suppose.)
paul
> On Dec 16, 2021, at 11:08 AM, Supratim Sanyal<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
>
> On 12/16/2021 05:41, R. Voorhorst wrote:
>> Question remains, how did you get Decnet 3.0 running and did you obtain the
necessary patch.
> Yes, applied the license. I chose VAX/VMS 3.5 because in March of 2020 you had gone
as far as getting a license error on VMS3.0 that said it needed VMS3.4+. I also tried to
use the licensed NETACP.EXE on vms3.0, does not look promising, says it has problems
loading. At this point, Cisco may be the answer with the nifty feature for DECnet NAT, I
will explore it sometime. Anyway, my experiments are here if you or anyone is
interested:https://www.dropbox.com/sh/x4e6ie4lrwi9wns/AABMogcguAcL8xPwMIDxO…
>
> On 12/16/2021 04:55, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> Uh? The mac address AA-00-04-00-2A-7C means it has address 31.42. Just sayin...
> It's forced at the Linux/SimH level.
>
> On 12/15/2021 20:05, Paul Koning wrote:
>> You've got to set MAX AREA large enough; 63 is the obvious value. With it
not set, the system apparently is defaulting it to 1, so when you gave it a node address
without area number it defaulted the area number to 1, which of course can't work.
> There is no option, at least in NCP, for any Area parameters.
>
> NCP>help set exec
>
> SET
>
> EXECUTOR
>
>
> Use the SET EXECUTOR command to create or modify parameters in the
> volatile database which controls the network on the executor node. Use
> the DEFINE EXECUTOR command to create or modify parameters in the
> volatile database which controls the network on the executor node.
>
>
> SET EXECUTOR (parameters ...)
>
>
> Additional information available:
>
> ALL ADDRESS node-address BROADCAST ROUTING TIMER
> BUFFER SIZE number COUNTER TIMER seconds DEFAULT ACCESS
> DELAY FACTOR DELAY WEIGHT IDENTIFICATION
> INACTIVITY TIMER INCOMING TIMER MAXIMUM ADDRESS
> MAXIMUM BROADCAST NONROUTERS MAXIMUM BROADCAST ROUTERS
> MAXIMUM BUFFERS MAXIMUM CIRCUITS MAXIMUM COST
> MAXIMUM HOPS MAXIMUM LINKS MAXIMUM VISITS
> NONPRIVILEGED OUTGOING TIMER PIPELINE QUOTA
> PRIVILEGED RETRANSMIT FACTOR ROUTING TIMER
> SEGMENT BUFFER SIZE STATE SUBADDRESS range TYPE
> Examples NODE
>
> SET EXECUTOR Subtopic?
>
> SET EXECUTOR Subtopic? ex
>
> SET
>
> EXECUTOR
>
> Examples
>
>
>
> NCP>SET EXECUTOR ADDRESS 11 BUFFER SIZE 576
>
> This command sets the executor node's address to 11 and buffer
> size to 576 bytes.
>
> NCP>SET EXECUTOR STATE ON
>
> This command sets the executor node's operational state to ON.
>
>
> SET EXECUTOR Subtopic? ^Z
> NCP>exit
> $
>
>
--
Supratim Sanyal, W1XMT
39.19151 N, 77.23432 W
QCOCAL::SANYAL via HECnet
8:07 p.m.
On Dec 16, 2021, at 10:52 AM, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
BTW, the "BE-X083A-BE - DECNET-VAX FULL FUNCTION" thing is not a tape; after
failing to mount it as a tape numerous times, a "od -a" dump looked like a
disk to me, and guess what, it mounted as a RD54.
Based on the size of 256k, I assume it is probably an image of a TU58 DECTAPE-II tape...
which is a (slow) random-access block-oriented device, commonly with an RT-11 filesystem
on it. The .tap extension is misleading because it implies that it is a 9-track magtape
image in SIMH tape format. It really is a tape, but one that looks like a slow disk drive
to the operating system.
If that license came from a TU58, then I would guess that it was originally media for a
VAX-11/750 or VAX-11/730?
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
1075
days inactive
1075
days old
4 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
nf6x＠nf6x.net -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com -
supratim＠riseup.net