9 Dec
2021
9 Dec
'21
12:25 a.m.
I'm trying to find the oldest VAX/VMS version which:
* Supports DECnet Phase IV over ethernet
* Supports the VAX-11/730
* I can get my hands on images of the OS installation and anything (licenses?) needed for
DECnet Phase IV
I found a .tap image of the VAX/VMS 3.0 distribution at the Russian mirror site. Version
3.0 interests me because I think it was the one that was released to coincide with the
VAX-11/730 release. I was able to install it on a SIMH emulation of the 730. I gather that
the normal VAX/VMS 3.0 distribution for the VAX-11/730 would be on an RL02 pack instead of
a magtape, and I hope that I might figure out how to reconstruct an RL02 pack distribution
from what is on the tape image.
I have not found any scans of the DECnet-VAX Software Installation Guide or the DECnet-VAX
System Manager's Guide yet, and I don't know what needs to be done to install
and/or configure DECnet in such an old VMS version. I see that stuff related to DECnet is
present after installation, such as STARTNET.COM and NCP.EXE, but DECnet-VAX is referred
to as an optional component which must be licensed separately. I gather from discussions
elsewhere that there may be at least one critical file missing that serves as the
"license" for DECnet-VAX?
STARTNET.COM comments instruct that it can be run after creating the permanent database,
and trying to run it generates errors like:
$ @sys$manager:startnet.com
%OPCOM, 8-DEC-1982 13:55:13.31, message from user NETACP
DECnet starting
%NCP-I-NMLRSP, listener response - File open error, Permanent database
%RMS-E-FNF, file not found
I don't know how to create the permanent database under VAX/VMS 3.0 yet. I tried
running NCP.EXE and issuing a SET EXECUTOR command. It asks for a node address in the
range of 1..255, so does that imply that whatever (incomplete?) DECnet code is present
there is for Phase III?
I'm experimenting with SIMH VAX-11/730 simulations for now. Eventually, I'd like
to downgrade the OpenVMS v7.3 installation that came on my real VAX-11/730's R80 drive
to something less bloated and more contemporary with my system, but still able to connect
to HECNET over ethernet.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
9 Dec
9 Dec
1 a.m.
On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 10:25 AM Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
I'm trying to find the oldest VAX/VMS version
which:
* Supports DECnet Phase IV over ethernet
* Supports the VAX-11/730
* I can get my hands on images of the OS installation and anything
(licenses?) needed for DECnet Phase IV
[snip]
I have not found any scans of the DECnet-VAX Software
Installation Guide
or the DECnet-VAX System Manager's Guide yet, and I don't know what needs
to be done to install and/or configure DECnet in such an old VMS version. I
see that stuff related to DECnet is present after installation, such as
STARTNET.COM and NCP.EXE, but DECnet-VAX is referred to as an optional
component which must be licensed separately. I gather from discussions
elsewhere that there may be at least one critical file missing that serves
as the "license" for DECnet-VAX?
The VAX/VMS DECnet license "key" for old versions (V4.7 and prior) came in
the form of a saveset (on a TK50 or magtap) that you installed. It did a
binary patch on the NETACP.EXE image to enable things. There are separate
versions for routing and end-node configurations.
The thing that bothers me running old versions of VAX/VMS is the lack of
Y2K updates. You will probably need to boot with a date last century
(subtract 28 years to get matching calendar days) to avoid some gotchas.
For VAX/VMS V3.0 there may have been some mandatory upgrade patches too.
I have the VAX/VMS V4.7 mandatory patches and DECnet "key" for a routing
node should you need them.
Tony
1:14 a.m.
This was attempted with John Dundas' VMS 3.0 distribution towards the
end of March, 2020. The last email I have from
Reindert is below.
It looks there is some decnet on the disk.
Exec list gives phase-III router:
$ mc ncp
NCP>show exec char
Node Volatile Characteristics as of 21-MAR-2020 15:16:42
Executor node = 0
Identification = DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.0
Management version = V3.0.0
Incoming timer = 45
Outgoing timer = 45
NSP version = V3.2.0
Maximum links = 32
Delay factor = 64
Delay weight = 2
Inactivity timer = 60
Retransmit factor = 10
Routing version = V1.3.0
Type = routing
Routing timer = 600
Maximum address = 1
Maximum circuits = 0
Maximum cost = 1023
Maximum hops = 31
Maximum visits = 63
Maximum buffers = 2
Buffer size = 1000
Default access = incoming and outgoing
So ..... playtime ....?
R.V.
-----Original Message-----
From:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of R.
Voorhorst
Sent: Saturday, 21 March, 2020 14:48
To:hecnet at Update.UU.SE; 'Ray Jewhurst'<raywjewhurst at gmail.com>;
'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'<cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Cc: 'simh'<simH at trailing-edge.com>; 'John Dundas'<dundas at
caltech.edu>
Subject: RE: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download --> boot on
Vax8600/50
Boot on Vax8600:
HK0: 'F:\Shares\Distribution\VMS\Vms_30\VAXVMSV3.0-26APR1982\vmsv30.rk07' Contains
ODS2 File system
HK0: Volume Name: VAXVMSRL3 Format: DECFILE11B Sectors In Volume: 53790
sim> b hk0
Loading boot code from internal vmb.exe
%SYSBOOT-W-ECO or microcode version less than minimum required for VMS.
%SYSBOOT-E-Unable to locate file SYSLOA
SC.EXE
HALT instruction, PC: 0000325A (CLRQ R8)
sim>
So some work to do or not (very well) possible.
So it will run on Vax11/780 the original workhorse from then.
Somewhere a Decnet-3.0 around for Vms to make it complete?
Best regards,
R.V.
-----Original Message-----
From:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Paul
Birkel
Sent: Saturday, 21 March, 2020 13:56
To: 'Ray Jewhurst'<raywjewhurst at gmail.com>; 'General Discussion:
On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'<cctalk at classiccmp.org>;hecnet at update.uu.se
Cc: 'simh'<simH at trailing-edge.com>; 'John Dundas'<dundas at
caltech.edu>
Subject: RE: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download
According to the Release Notes it works on the 11/750 and 11/730 as well.
See: AA-D015D-TE
https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decvaxvms3leaseNotesV3.0May82_5458871…
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ray Jewhurst via
cctalk
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:34 AM
To:hecnet at update.uu.se
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; simh; John Dundas
Subject: Re: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download
From 1982 I see. I know that this will run on the 780/785 but what about the other
VAX-11s or the 8600? I am purely a simulator and have never used the real thing and I am
not sure what years the models in question were released. Sorry if my questions seem
ignorant.
Ray
On Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 8:08 AM Supratim Sanyal<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
John Dundas' distribution of VAX/VMS version 3.0
(April 1982) can now
be downloaded from my Dropbox.
The SYSTEM password is MANAGER.
Note: Dropbox does not force you to create an account, if you look
carefully you will see a "Continue to view" link at the bottom of that
pop-up.
Here's what it boots into:
VAX/VMS Version V3.0 26-APR-1982 16:21
PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 21-MAR-2020 11:58
%JBC-I-NEWQUEUE, new queue file created %OPCOM, 21-MAR-2020
11:58:34.51, logfile initialized by operator OPA0
logfile is SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG
Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0
SYSTEM job terminated at 21-MAR-2020 11:58:39.91
Username: SYSTEM
Password:
Welcome to VAX/VMS version V3.0 $ $
Grab it fromhttps://bit.ly/vaxvms30
Regards,
Supratim
--
Supratim Sanyal, W1XMT
39.19151 N, 77.23432 W
QCOCAL::SANYAL via HECnet
On 12/8/21 7:00 PM, Tony Nicholson wrote:
On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 10:25 AM Mark J. Blair <nf6x
at nf6x.net> wrote:
I'm trying to find the oldest VAX/VMS version which:
* Supports DECnet Phase IV over ethernet
* Supports the VAX-11/730
* I can get my hands on images of the OS installation and anything
(licenses?) needed for DECnet Phase IV
[snip]
I have not found any scans of the DECnet-VAX Software Installation
Guide or the DECnet-VAX System Manager's Guide yet, and I don't
know what needs to be done to install and/or configure DECnet in
such an old VMS version. I see that stuff related to DECnet is
present after installation, such as STARTNET.COM
<http://STARTNET.COM> and NCP.EXE, but DECnet-VAX is referred to
as an optional component which must be licensed separately. I
gather from discussions elsewhere that there may be at least one
critical file missing that serves as the "license" for DECnet-VAX?
The VAX/VMS DECnet license "key" for old versions (V4.7 and prior)
came in the form of a saveset (on a TK50 or magtap) that you
installed.? It did a binary patch on the NETACP.EXE image to enable
things. There are separate versions for routing and end-node
configurations.
The thing that bothers me running old versions of VAX/VMS is the lack
of Y2K updates.? You will probably need to boot with a date last
century (subtract 28 years to get matching calendar days) to avoid
some gotchas.? For VAX/VMS V3.0 there may have been some mandatory
upgrade patches too.
I have the VAX/VMS V4.7 mandatory patches and DECnet "key" for a
routing node should you need them.
Tony
--
1:33 a.m.
On Dec 8, 2021, at 4:14 PM, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
This was attempted with John Dundas' VMS 3.0 distribution towards the end of March,
2020. The last email I have from
Reindert is below.
Thanks! I must have forgotten about that thread. March of 2020 was a bit distracting.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
2:26 a.m.
Trying to boot VMS V3 on an 8600 will not work. That machine didn't
exist yet back then. V4.something was when 8600 support was added.
(Possibly V4.7)
Johnny
On 2021-12-09 01:14, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
This was attempted with John Dundas' VMS 3.0
distribution towards the
end of March, 2020. The last email I have from
Reindert is below.
It looks there is some decnet on the disk.
Exec list gives phase-III router:
$ mc ncp
NCP>show exec char
Node Volatile Characteristics as of 21-MAR-2020 15:16:42
Executor node = 0
Identification = DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.0
Management version = V3.0.0
Incoming timer = 45
Outgoing timer = 45
NSP version = V3.2.0
Maximum links = 32
Delay factor = 64
Delay weight = 2
Inactivity timer = 60
Retransmit factor = 10
Routing version = V1.3.0
Type = routing
Routing timer = 600
Maximum address = 1
Maximum circuits = 0
Maximum cost = 1023
Maximum hops = 31
Maximum visits = 63
Maximum buffers = 2
Buffer size = 1000
Default access = incoming and outgoing
So ..... playtime ....?
R.V.
-----Original Message-----
From:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of R.
Voorhorst
Sent: Saturday, 21 March, 2020 14:48
To:hecnet at Update.UU.SE; 'Ray Jewhurst'<raywjewhurst at gmail.com>;
'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'<cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Cc: 'simh'<simH at trailing-edge.com>; 'John Dundas'<dundas at
caltech.edu>
Subject: RE: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download --> boot on
Vax8600/50
Boot on Vax8600:
HK0: 'F:\Shares\Distribution\VMS\Vms_30\VAXVMSV3.0-26APR1982\vmsv30.rk07'
Contains ODS2 File system
HK0: Volume Name: VAXVMSRL3 Format: DECFILE11B Sectors In Volume: 53790
sim> b hk0
Loading boot code from internal vmb.exe
%SYSBOOT-W-ECO or microcode version less than minimum required for VMS.
%SYSBOOT-E-Unable to locate file SYSLOA
SC.EXE
HALT instruction, PC: 0000325A (CLRQ R8)
sim>
So some work to do or not (very well) possible.
So it will run on Vax11/780 the original workhorse from then.
Somewhere a Decnet-3.0 around for Vms to make it complete?
Best regards,
R.V.
-----Original Message-----
From:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Paul Birkel
Sent: Saturday, 21 March, 2020 13:56
To: 'Ray Jewhurst'<raywjewhurst at gmail.com>; 'General Discussion:
On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'<cctalk at classiccmp.org>;hecnet at update.uu.se
Cc: 'simh'<simH at trailing-edge.com>; 'John Dundas'<dundas at
caltech.edu>
Subject: RE: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download
According to the Release Notes it works on the 11/750 and 11/730 as well.
See: AA-D015D-TE
https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decvaxvms3leaseNotesV3.0May82_5458871…
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ray Jewhurst via
cctalk
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:34 AM
To:hecnet at update.uu.se
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; simh; John Dundas
Subject: Re: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download
From 1982 I see. I know that this will run on the 780/785 but what about the other
VAX-11s or the 8600? I am purely a simulator and have never used the real thing and I am
not sure what years the models in question were released. Sorry if my questions seem
ignorant.
Ray
On Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 8:08 AM Supratim Sanyal<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
John Dundas' distribution of VAX/VMS version
3.0 (April 1982) can now
be downloaded from my Dropbox.
The SYSTEM password is MANAGER.
Note: Dropbox does not force you to create an account, if you look
carefully you will see a "Continue to view" link at the bottom of that
pop-up.
Here's what it boots into:
VAX/VMS Version V3.0 26-APR-1982 16:21
PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 21-MAR-2020 11:58
%JBC-I-NEWQUEUE, new queue file created %OPCOM, 21-MAR-2020
11:58:34.51, logfile initialized by operator OPA0
logfile is SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG
Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0
SYSTEM job terminated at 21-MAR-2020 11:58:39.91
Username: SYSTEM
Password:
Welcome to VAX/VMS version V3.0 $ $
Grab it fromhttps://bit.ly/vaxvms30
Regards,
Supratim
--
Supratim Sanyal, W1XMT
39.19151 N, 77.23432 W
QCOCAL::SANYAL via HECnet
On 12/8/21 7:00 PM, Tony Nicholson wrote:
On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 10:25 AM Mark J. Blair
<nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
I'm trying to find the oldest VAX/VMS version which:
* Supports DECnet Phase IV over ethernet
* Supports the VAX-11/730
* I can get my hands on images of the OS installation and anything
(licenses?) needed for DECnet Phase IV
[snip]
I have not found any scans of the DECnet-VAX Software Installation
Guide or the DECnet-VAX System Manager's Guide yet, and I don't
know what needs to be done to install and/or configure DECnet in
such an old VMS version. I see that stuff related to DECnet is
present after installation, such as STARTNET.COM
<http://STARTNET.COM> and NCP.EXE, but DECnet-VAX is referred to
as an optional component which must be licensed separately. I
gather from discussions elsewhere that there may be at least one
critical file missing that serves as the "license" for DECnet-VAX?
The VAX/VMS DECnet license "key" for old versions (V4.7 and prior)
came in the form of a saveset (on a TK50 or magtap) that you
installed.? It did a binary patch on the NETACP.EXE image to enable
things. There are separate versions for routing and end-node
configurations.
The thing that bothers me running old versions of VAX/VMS is the lack
of Y2K updates.? You will probably need to boot with a date last
century (subtract 28 years to get matching calendar days) to avoid
some gotchas.? For VAX/VMS V3.0 there may have been some mandatory
upgrade patches too.
I have the VAX/VMS V4.7 mandatory patches and DECnet "key" for a
routing node should you need them.
Tony
-- 
8:58 a.m.
We installed 4.2 on the 8600 at the British Geological Survey at Keyworth, so from
http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/id/eprint/4670/1/BGSPresentation.pdf
"Oracle first introduced to BGS in 1983 running under VMS 4.2
on a VAX 8600 computer with 12Mb memory, 2.7 Gb disk
space. User Interface was Oracle Forms and SQLPlus"
Dave
G4UGM
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> On
Behalf Of Johnny Billquist
Sent: 09 December 2021 01:26
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Oldest VAX/VMS for VAX-11/730 on HECNET
Trying to boot VMS V3 on an 8600 will not work. That machine didn't exist yet
back then. V4.something was when 8600 support was added.
(Possibly V4.7)
Johnny
On 2021-12-09 01:14, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
This was attempted with John Dundas' VMS 3.0
distribution towards the
end of March, 2020. The last email I have from Reindert is below.
It looks there is some decnet on the disk.
Exec list gives phase-III router:
$ mc ncp
NCP>show exec char
Node Volatile Characteristics as of 21-MAR-2020 15:16:42
Executor node = 0
Identification = DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.0
Management version = V3.0.0
Incoming timer = 45
Outgoing timer = 45
NSP version = V3.2.0
Maximum links = 32
Delay factor = 64
Delay weight = 2
Inactivity timer = 60
Retransmit factor = 10
Routing version = V1.3.0
Type = routing
Routing timer = 600
Maximum address = 1
Maximum circuits = 0
Maximum cost = 1023
Maximum hops = 31
Maximum visits = 63
Maximum buffers = 2
Buffer size = 1000
Default access = incoming and outgoing
So ..... playtime ....?
R.V.
-----Original Message-----
From:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-
hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On
Behalf Of R. Voorhorst
Sent: Saturday, 21 March, 2020 14:48
To:hecnet at Update.UU.SE; 'Ray Jewhurst'<raywjewhurst at gmail.com>;
'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts'<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Cc: 'simh'<simH at trailing-edge.com>; 'John Dundas'<dundas at
caltech.edu>
Subject: RE: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download
--> boot on Vax8600/50
Boot on Vax8600:
HK0: 'F:\Shares\Distribution\VMS\Vms_30\VAXVMSV3.0-
26APR1982\vmsv30.rk07'
Contains ODS2 File system
HK0: Volume Name: VAXVMSRL3 Format: DECFILE11B
Sectors In Volume:
53790
sim> b hk0
Loading boot code from internal vmb.exe
%SYSBOOT-W-ECO or microcode version less than minimum required for
VMS.
%SYSBOOT-E-Unable to locate file SYSLOA SC.EXE
HALT instruction, PC:
0000325A (CLRQ R8)
sim>
So some work to do or not (very well) possible.
So it will run on Vax11/780 the original workhorse from then.
Somewhere a Decnet-3.0 around for Vms to make it complete?
Best regards,
R.V.
-----Original Message-----
From:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-
hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On
Behalf Of Paul Birkel
Sent: Saturday, 21 March, 2020 13:56
To: 'Ray Jewhurst'<raywjewhurst at gmail.com>; 'General Discussion:
On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts'<cctalk at classiccmp.org>;hecnet at update.uu.se
Cc: 'simh'<simH at trailing-edge.com>; 'John Dundas'<dundas at
caltech.edu>
Subject: RE: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download
According to the Release Notes it works on the 11/750 and 11/730 as well.
See: AA-D015D-TE
https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decvaxvms3leaseNotesV3.0May82_54
58871/mode/2up
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ray
Jewhurst via cctalk
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:34 AM To:hecnet at update.uu.se
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; simh; John
Dundas
Subject: Re: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download
From 1982 I see. I know that this will run on the 780/785 but what about
the
other VAX-11s or the 8600? I am purely a simulator and have never used
the real thing and I am not sure what years the models in question were
released. Sorry if my questions seem ignorant.
Ray
On Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 8:08 AM Supratim Sanyal<supratim at riseup.net>
wrote:
> John Dundas' distribution of VAX/VMS version 3.0 (April 1982) can now
> be downloaded from my Dropbox.
>
> The SYSTEM password is MANAGER.
>
> Note: Dropbox does not force you to create an account, if you look
> carefully you will see a "Continue to view" link at the bottom of
> that pop-up.
>
> Here's what it boots into:
>
>
> VAX/VMS Version V3.0 26-APR-1982 16:21
>
>
> PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 21-MAR-2020
11:58
%JBC-I-NEWQUEUE, new queue file created %OPCOM, 21-MAR-2020
11:58:34.51, logfile initialized by operator OPA0
logfile is SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG
Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0
SYSTEM job terminated at 21-MAR-2020 11:58:39.91
Username: SYSTEM
Password:
Welcome to VAX/VMS version V3.0 $ $
Grab it fromhttps://bit.ly/vaxvms30
Regards,
Supratim
--
Supratim Sanyal, W1XMT
39.19151 N, 77.23432 W
QCOCAL::SANYAL via HECnet
On 12/8/21 7:00 PM, Tony Nicholson wrote:
On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 10:25 AM Mark J. Blair
<nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
I'm trying to find the oldest VAX/VMS version which:
* Supports DECnet Phase IV over ethernet
* Supports the VAX-11/730
* I can get my hands on images of the OS installation and anything
(licenses?) needed for DECnet Phase IV
[snip]
I have not found any scans of the DECnet-VAX Software Installation
Guide or the DECnet-VAX System Manager's Guide yet, and I don't
know what needs to be done to install and/or configure DECnet in
such an old VMS version. I see that stuff related to DECnet is
present after installation, such as STARTNET.COM
<http://STARTNET.COM> and NCP.EXE, but DECnet-VAX is referred to
as an optional component which must be licensed separately. I
gather from discussions elsewhere that there may be at least one
critical file missing that serves as the "license" for DECnet-VAX?
The VAX/VMS DECnet license "key" for old versions (V4.7 and prior)
came in the form of a saveset (on a TK50 or magtap) that you
installed. It did a binary patch on the NETACP.EXE image to enable
things. There are separate versions for routing and end-node
configurations.
The thing that bothers me running old versions of VAX/VMS is the lack
of Y2K updates. You will probably need to boot with a date last
century (subtract 28 years to get matching calendar days) to avoid
some gotchas. For VAX/VMS V3.0 there may have been some mandatory
upgrade patches too.
I have the VAX/VMS V4.7 mandatory patches and DECnet "key" for a
routing node should you need them.
Tony
--
1:31 a.m.
On Dec 8, 2021, at 4:00 PM, Tony Nicholson
<tony.nicholson at computer.org> wrote:
The VAX/VMS DECnet license "key" for old versions (V4.7 and prior) came in the
form of a saveset (on a TK50 or magtap) that you installed. It did a binary patch on the
NETACP.EXE image to enable things. There are separate versions for routing and end-node
configurations.
Ah, thank you. I was wondering how that worked.
The thing that bothers me running old versions of
VAX/VMS is the lack of Y2K updates. You will probably need to boot with a date last
century (subtract 28 years to get matching calendar days) to avoid some gotchas. For
VAX/VMS V3.0 there may have been some mandatory upgrade patches too.
When I installed 3.0 on an emulation, it decided that it must be 1982. Do you know what
the earliest versions with y2k support would be?
I have the VAX/VMS V4.7 mandatory patches and DECnet
"key" for a routing node should you need them.
Thanks, I'll let you know if I need to take you up on that. In another context,
I've been slipped the items to enable DECnet on 3.4 and later, so I'll probably
see if I can have the kind of excitement I'm looking for in a 3.4-3.7 release.
I'll also try playing with something in the 4.x series. I'm not sure exactly what
I want out of my 730, but I think that version 7.3 is awfully big and newfangled for it.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
1:56 a.m.
On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 11:32 AM Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
Te old VAX-11/780 TOY clock didn't store the year. Instead it was stored
and loaded from the system disk file system (one of the files in [000000] -
I can't remember the exact details). Every year in January we had to do a
"SET TIME" command to update it.
The Y2K update kits supported V5.5-2 and later.
The patches I have for VAX/VMS V5.5-2 (including the Y2K ones) are on my
Google Drive at
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oZpat-XT8ZXXaInyg69QLVICrMZK4Nkq/view?usp=…
While I'm sharing, the OpenVMS VAX V6.2 ones are at
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cCNtAZRXX7PKt65bgvYUyicQcQdhJyhy/view?usp=…
and the VAX/VMS V4.7 mandatory updates 020 and 030 are at
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8ua4QU-3W8kLTBLaVpZbml6N0U/view?usp=shari…
Tony
PS: It might pay to look amongst old VAX/VMS RX01 8" floppy images for the
V3.0 DECnet "key" too. A brain cell fired that this was the update media
too back-in-the-day. My exposure to VAX/VMS started around the 1982
timeframe (on 11/780s and 11/750s).
On Dec 8, 2021, at 4:00 PM, Tony Nicholson
<tony.nicholson at computer.org>
wrote:
The VAX/VMS DECnet license "key" for old versions (V4.7 and prior) came
in the form of a saveset (on a TK50 or magtap) that you installed. It did
a binary patch on the NETACP.EXE image to enable things. There are separate
versions for routing and end-node configurations.
Ah, thank you. I was wondering how that worked.
The thing that bothers me running old versions of
VAX/VMS is the lack of
Y2K updates. You will probably need to boot with a date
last century
(subtract 28 years to get matching calendar days) to avoid some gotchas.
For VAX/VMS V3.0 there may have been some mandatory upgrade patches too.
When I installed 3.0 on an emulation, it decided that it must be 1982. Do
you know what the earliest versions with y2k support would be?
2:32 a.m.
On 2021-12-09 01:56, Tony Nicholson wrote:
On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 11:32 AM Mark J. Blair <nf6x
at nf6x.net
<mailto:nf6x at nf6x.net>> wrote:
I think it's the same on all VAXen.
But usually you did not have to do a set time, since the file was/is
normally getting updated time stamps during normal operation as well, if
I remember right. But the logic will only work if the machine is
rebooted within roughly a year since it was shut down. Else the year
will be wrong.
On Dec 8, 2021, at 4:00 PM, Tony Nicholson
<tony.nicholson at computer.org <mailto:tony.nicholson at computer.org>>
wrote:
The thing that bothers me running old versions of VAX/VMS is the
lack of Y2K
updates.? You will probably need to boot with a date
last century (subtract 28 years to get matching calendar days) to
avoid some gotchas.? For VAX/VMS V3.0 there may have been some
mandatory upgrade patches too.
When I installed 3.0 on an emulation, it decided that it must be
1982. Do you know what the earliest versions with y2k support would be?
Te old VAX-11/780 TOY clock didn't store the year.? Instead it was
stored and loaded from the system disk file system (one of the files in
[000000] - I can't remember the exact details).? Every year in January
we had to do a "SET TIME" command to update it. The Y2K update kits supported V5.5-2 and later.
While I'm sure there were various Y2K bugs around, the basic design in
VMS was intended from day 0 to handle dates beyond Y2K.
So I would just try to set the correct date to start with, and if
something seriously breaks, then I would consider shifting it back to an
earlier year.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
2:44 a.m.
On Dec 8, 2021, at 5:32 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
While I'm sure there were various Y2K bugs around, the basic design in VMS was
intended from day 0 to handle dates beyond Y2K.
So I would just try to set the correct date to start with, and if something seriously
breaks, then I would consider shifting it back to an earlier year.
Oh... I set the time and date when prompted during the installations, and then when the
system time displayed as 1982, I assumed it was not Y2K capable. So I tried setting the
time after booting:
$ show time
8-DEC-1982 17:39:46
$ set time=08-DEC-2021:17:40
$ show time
8-DEC-2021 17:40:02
And then after rebooting:
VAX/VMS Version V3.0 26-APR-1982 16:21
%OPCOM, 8-DEC-2021 17:42:34.01, logfile initialized by operator OPA0
logfile is SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG
Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0
SYSTEM job terminated at 8-DEC-2021 17:42:35.06
Username: SYSTEM
Password:
Welcome to VAX/VMS version V3.0
$ show time
8-DEC-2021 17:42:53
How about that!
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
3:23 a.m.
Now someone just need to post the link to the answer written by someone
at DEC about the eventual wrapping of the VMS timestamp.
Time in VMS is handled pretty nicely. The only real problem is that they
went with local time. Otherwise the VMS timestamp is excellent. (I think
TOPS-20 use the same thing.)
Johnny
On 2021-12-09 02:44, Mark J. Blair wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Dec 8, 2021, at 5:32 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
While I'm sure there were various Y2K bugs around, the basic design in VMS was
intended from day 0 to handle dates beyond Y2K.
So I would just try to set the correct date to start with, and if something seriously
breaks, then I would consider shifting it back to an earlier year.
Oh... I set the time and date when prompted during the installations, and then when the
system time displayed as 1982, I assumed it was not Y2K capable. So I tried setting the
time after booting:
$ show time
8-DEC-1982 17:39:46
$ set time=08-DEC-2021:17:40
$ show time
8-DEC-2021 17:40:02
And then after rebooting:
VAX/VMS Version V3.0 26-APR-1982 16:21
%OPCOM, 8-DEC-2021 17:42:34.01, logfile initialized by operator OPA0
logfile is SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG
Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0
SYSTEM job terminated at 8-DEC-2021 17:42:35.06
Username: SYSTEM
Password:
Welcome to VAX/VMS version V3.0
$ show time
8-DEC-2021 17:42:53
How about that!
4:15 a.m.
Ah. Found it: https://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/joke/decly.htm
But I thought it also mentioned when the VMS timestamp would run out,
but I seem have misremembered. But anyway, it does show that DEC had
already thought about beyond 2000 back in the early days of VMS.
Johnny
On 2021-12-09 03:23, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Now someone just need to post the link to the answer
written by someone
at DEC about the eventual wrapping of the VMS timestamp.
Time in VMS is handled pretty nicely. The only real problem is that they
went with local time. Otherwise the VMS timestamp is excellent. (I think
TOPS-20 use the same thing.)
? Johnny
On 2021-12-09 02:44, Mark J. Blair wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Dec 8, 2021, at 5:32 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
While I'm sure there were various Y2K bugs around, the basic design
in VMS was intended from day 0 to handle dates beyond Y2K.
So I would just try to set the correct date to start with, and if
something seriously breaks, then I would consider shifting it back to
an earlier year.
Oh... I set the time and date when prompted during the installations,
and then when the system time displayed as 1982, I assumed it was not
Y2K capable. So I tried setting the time after booting:
$ show time
??? 8-DEC-1982 17:39:46
$ set time=08-DEC-2021:17:40
$ show time
??? 8-DEC-2021 17:40:02
And then after rebooting:
?? VAX/VMS Version V3.0 26-APR-1982 16:21
%OPCOM,? 8-DEC-2021 17:42:34.01, logfile initialized by operator OPA0
???????? logfile is SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG
?? Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0
?? SYSTEM?????? job terminated at? 8-DEC-2021 17:42:35.06
Username: SYSTEM
Password:
???????? Welcome to VAX/VMS version V3.0
$ show time
??? 8-DEC-2021 17:42:53
How about that!
4:26 a.m.
? I think you are recalling this one
http://www.vaxmacro.de/vbto.html
? that explains when VMS clocks will overflow. We have a little while
left before that's a problem.
? There will be other problems when the year increments to 5 digits,
but the above article assures us that there will be a fix before then...
?Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants
lee.gleason at comcast.net
On 12/8/2021 9:15 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Ah. Found it:
https://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/joke/decly.htm
But I thought it also mentioned when the VMS timestamp would run out,
but I seem have misremembered. But anyway, it does show that DEC had
already thought about beyond 2000 back in the early days of VMS.
? Johnny
On 2021-12-09 03:23, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Now someone just need to post the link to the
answer written by
someone at DEC about the eventual wrapping of the VMS timestamp.
Time in VMS is handled pretty nicely. The only real problem is that
they went with local time. Otherwise the VMS timestamp is excellent.
(I think TOPS-20 use the same thing.)
?? Johnny
On 2021-12-09 02:44, Mark J. Blair wrote:
On Dec 8, 2021, at 5:32 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
While I'm sure there were various Y2K bugs around, the basic design
in VMS was intended from day 0 to handle dates beyond Y2K.
So I would just try to set the correct date to start with, and if
something seriously breaks, then I would consider shifting it back
to an earlier year.
Oh... I set the time and date when prompted during the
installations, and then when the system time displayed as 1982, I
assumed it was not Y2K capable. So I tried setting the time after
booting:
$ show time
??? 8-DEC-1982 17:39:46
$ set time=08-DEC-2021:17:40
$ show time
??? 8-DEC-2021 17:40:02
And then after rebooting:
?? VAX/VMS Version V3.0 26-APR-1982 16:21
%OPCOM,? 8-DEC-2021 17:42:34.01, logfile initialized by operator OPA0
???????? logfile is SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG
?? Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0
?? SYSTEM?????? job terminated at? 8-DEC-2021 17:42:35.06
Username: SYSTEM
Password:
???????? Welcome to VAX/VMS version V3.0
$ show time
??? 8-DEC-2021 17:42:53
How about that!
5:38 a.m.
Yes! Thank you! That was actually the one I was thinking of.
Johnny
On 2021-12-09 04:26, Lee Gleason wrote:
? I think you are recalling this one
http://www.vaxmacro.de/vbto.html
? that explains when VMS clocks will overflow. We have a little while
left before that's a problem.
? There will be other problems when the year increments to 5 digits,
but the above article assures us that there will be a fix before then...
?Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants
lee.gleason at comcast.net
On 12/8/2021 9:15 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Ah. Found it:
https://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/joke/decly.htm
But I thought it also mentioned when the VMS timestamp would run out,
but I seem have misremembered. But anyway, it does show that DEC had
already thought about beyond 2000 back in the early days of VMS.
? Johnny
On 2021-12-09 03:23, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Now someone just need to post the link to the
answer written by
someone at DEC about the eventual wrapping of the VMS timestamp.
Time in VMS is handled pretty nicely. The only real problem is that
they went with local time. Otherwise the VMS timestamp is excellent.
(I think TOPS-20 use the same thing.)
?? Johnny
On 2021-12-09 02:44, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> On Dec 8, 2021, at 5:32 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
>
> While I'm sure there were various Y2K bugs around, the basic design
> in VMS was intended from day 0 to handle dates beyond Y2K.
> So I would just try to set the correct date to start with, and if
> something seriously breaks, then I would consider shifting it back
> to an earlier year.
Oh... I set the time and date when prompted during the
installations, and then when the system time displayed as 1982, I
assumed it was not Y2K capable. So I tried setting the time after
booting:
> $ show time
> ??? 8-DEC-1982 17:39:46
> $ set time=08-DEC-2021:17:40
> $ show time
> ??? 8-DEC-2021 17:40:02
And then after rebooting:
> ?? VAX/VMS Version V3.0 26-APR-1982 16:21
>
>
> %OPCOM,? 8-DEC-2021 17:42:34.01, logfile initialized by operator OPA0
> ???????? logfile is SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG
> ?? Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0
> ?? SYSTEM?????? job terminated at? 8-DEC-2021 17:42:35.06
>
> Username: SYSTEM
> Password:
> ???????? Welcome to VAX/VMS version V3.0
> $ show time
> ??? 8-DEC-2021 17:42:53
How about that!
7:57 a.m.
In VMS 3.0, NETCONFIG.com prompted me for an address in range 1..255. So that looks like
Phase III to me.
In VMS 3.5-3.7, I NETCONFIG.COM prompted me for an address in range 1..1023, but no area
number. It also gave me errors when I tried bringing up the network interface. So, maybe
an earlier unrouted version of Phase IV?
In VMS 4.0, NETCONFIG.COM prompted me for a Phase IV address. But when I started the
network, I got flooded with errors like:
%RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0000004A
$
%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 8-DEC-2021 19:23:45.49 %%%%%%%%%%%
Message from user DECNET
DECnet event 4.19, adjacency down, operator initiated
From node 2.617 (PUGGLE), 8-DEC-2021 19:23:45.49
Circuit UNA-0, Adjacent node address out of range
Packet beginning = 0B020000AA000400BB0A024F0240000A
So, Phase IV, but maybe buggy when exposed to my normal local DECNET traffic?
Finally, I tried VMS 4.7, and it seems to talk to my other nodes just fine. Yay! So I
guess the answer to my original question is something newer than 4.0, and no older than
4.7. Now I have node PUGGLE:: up and running on HECNET with VMS v4.7.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
8:18 a.m.
On 12/9/21 1:57 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Finally, I tried VMS 4.7, and it seems to talk to my
other nodes just fine. Yay! So I guess the answer to my original question is something
newer than 4.0, and no older than 4.7. Now I have node PUGGLE:: up and running on HECNET
with VMS v4.7.
Looks like it. The lowest I could go so far is 31.31 (XLIV) @ 4.4. We
should try 3.4+ with the key sometime.
8:29 a.m.
On Dec 8, 2021, at 11:18 PM, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
Looks like it. The lowest I could go so far is 31.31 (XLIV) @ 4.4. We should try 3.4+
with the key sometime.
I tried 3.5 with the license installed, and then upgraded it to 3.7 and tried again. It
asks for an address in the range 1..1023, but I didn't see any way to specify an area.
When I tried starting the network in any of them, I got errors like:
$ @startnet
%RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0001000E
%OPCOM, 8-DEC-2021 18:33:36.97, message from user DECNET
DECnet starting
%NCP-I-NMLRSP, listener response - Invalid parameter value, Maximum address
Executor node = 2.617 (PUGGLE)
%RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0001000C
%NCP-I-NMLRSP, listener response - Invalid parameter value, Maximum address
Executor node = 2.617 (PUGGLE)
In that case I had type in my 2.617 address without paying enough attention to the prompt
asking for a number in the range 1..1023. I got the same kinds of errors after I
reconfigured with an address of 617.
4.0 was the first version that prompted me for a regular Phase IV address, and it gave me
errors like:
%RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is
0000004A
$
%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 8-DEC-2021 19:23:45.49 %%%%%%%%%%%
Message from user DECNET
DECnet event 4.19, adjacency down, operator initiated
From node 2.617 (PUGGLE), 8-DEC-2021 19:23:45.49
Circuit UNA-0, Adjacent node address out of range
Packet beginning = 0B020000AA000400BB0A024F0240000A
I speculate that it was reacting poorly to traffic it saw on my local network, between my
router LABRDR and my nodes HUSKY and BULDOG which were up?
4.7 is working well, but I have not tried any other versions between 4.0 and 4.7 yet.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
8:56 a.m.
On 12/9/21 2:29 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
maybe it will be happy with some address <=255, or <=128. it is very
promising you got this far, though. I will try it too once I am happy
with the PDP-11/93 with two DEQNAs and 4 DUP lines that is keeping me
awake on the east coast.
regards,
Supratim
On Dec 8, 2021, at 11:18 PM, Supratim
Sanyal<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
Looks like it. The lowest I could go so far is 31.31 (XLIV) @ 4.4. We should try 3.4+
with the key sometime.
I tried 3.5 with the license installed, and then upgraded it
to 3.7 and tried again. It asks for an address in the range 1..1023, but I didn't see
any way to specify an area. When I tried starting the network in any of them, I got errors
like:
> $ @startnet
> %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0001000E
> %OPCOM, 8-DEC-2021 18:33:36.97, message from user DECNET
> DECnet starting
> %NCP-I-NMLRSP, listener response - Invalid parameter value, Maximum address
> Executor node = 2.617 (PUGGLE)
>
> %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0001000C
> %NCP-I-NMLRSP, listener response - Invalid parameter value, Maximum address
> Executor node = 2.617 (PUGGLE)
> In that case I had type in my 2.617 address without
paying enough attention to the prompt asking for a number in the range 1..1023. I got the
same kinds of errors after I reconfigured with an address of 617.
4.0 was the first version that prompted me for a regular Phase IV address, and it gave me
errors like:
--
%RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process
is 0000004A
$
%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 8-DEC-2021 19:23:45.49 %%%%%%%%%%%
Message from user DECNET
DECnet event 4.19, adjacency down, operator initiated
From node 2.617 (PUGGLE), 8-DEC-2021 19:23:45.49
Circuit UNA-0, Adjacent node address out of range
Packet beginning = 0B020000AA000400BB0A024F0240000A
I speculate that it was reacting poorly to traffic it saw on my local network, between my
router LABRDR and my nodes HUSKY and BULDOG which were up?
4.7 is working well, but I have not tried any other versions between 4.0 and 4.7 yet.
1:09 p.m.
On 2021-12-09 08:29, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Hmm. Interesting. I know that if you only give one number on a phase IV
node, it will assume it's in the current area, or if area is sortof not
defined, then it's in area 1.
You seem to have it understand that it was in area 2. How did that happen?
It would suggest that you managed to correctly enter a full phase IV
address.
On Dec 8, 2021, at 11:18 PM, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
Looks like it. The lowest I could go so far is 31.31 (XLIV) @ 4.4. We should try 3.4+
with the key sometime.
I tried 3.5 with the license installed, and then upgraded it to 3.7 and tried again. It
asks for an address in the range 1..1023, but I didn't see any way to specify an area.
When I tried starting the network in any of them, I got errors like:
> $ @startnet
> %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0001000E
> %OPCOM, 8-DEC-2021 18:33:36.97, message from user DECNET
> DECnet starting
> %NCP-I-NMLRSP, listener response - Invalid parameter value, Maximum address
> Executor node = 2.617 (PUGGLE)
>
> %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0001000C
> %NCP-I-NMLRSP, listener response - Invalid parameter value, Maximum address
> Executor node = 2.617 (PUGGLE) In that case I had type in my 2.617 address without
paying enough attention to the prompt asking for a number in the range 1..1023. I got the
same kinds of errors after I reconfigured with an address of 617.
Yes, I would expect so. The error you get is something else, which don't
change because you use different areas...
4.0 was the first version that prompted me for a
regular Phase IV address, and it gave me errors like:
> %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0000004A
> $
> %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 8-DEC-2021 19:23:45.49 %%%%%%%%%%%
> Message from user DECNET
> DECnet event 4.19, adjacency down, operator initiated
> From node 2.617 (PUGGLE), 8-DEC-2021 19:23:45.49
> Circuit UNA-0, Adjacent node address out of range
> Packet beginning = 0B020000AA000400BB0A024F0240000A
I'd guess it is the related to the error you got on 3.5 and 3.7. And
that seems to have come from a machine with the address 2.699.
I speculate that it was reacting poorly to traffic it
saw on my local network, between my router LABRDR and my nodes HUSKY and BULDOG which were
up?
2.699 seems to be GLDRTR, but I'm sure you got it for several hosts...
4.7 is working well, but I have not tried any other
versions between 4.0 and 4.7 yet.
I suspect you might get even 3.5 working. But you need to go into NCP
and change a thing.
At least with RSX, you have a parameter that tells which is the highest
node number it should handle, and if you see, or configure, a number
higher than that, you'll get some kind of error similar to what you have
described above.
In RSX, this is the EXECUTOR parameter MAXIMUM ADDRESS. Check if you
don't have that one, and what it's set to in 3.5, 3.7 and 4.0.
You might also want to check for MAXIMUM AREA while you're at it...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
5:52 p.m.
On Dec 9, 2021, at 4:09 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2021-12-09 08:29, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Hmm. Interesting. I know that if you only give one number on a phase IV node, it will
assume it's in the current area, or if area is sortof not defined, then it's in
area 1.
You seem to have it understand that it was in area 2. How did that happen?
It would suggest that you managed to correctly enter a full phase IV address.
It prompted me for an address in the range 1-1023, but I wasn't paying close attention
and I typed in "2.617". I thought that maybe it blindly accepted the string and
got confused, so I ran NETCONFIG again and typed in "617". That gave me the same
errors, but I didn't happen to copy the error messages at that stage.
On Dec 8,
2021, at 11:18 PM, Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
Looks like it. The lowest I could go so far is 31.31 (XLIV) @ 4.4. We should try 3.4+
with the key sometime.
I tried 3.5 with the license installed, and then upgraded it
to 3.7 and tried again. It asks for an address in the range 1..1023, but I didn't see
any way to specify an area. When I tried starting the network in any of them, I got errors
like:
> $ @startnet
> %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0001000E
> %OPCOM, 8-DEC-2021 18:33:36.97, message from user DECNET
> DECnet starting
> %NCP-I-NMLRSP, listener response - Invalid parameter value, Maximum address
> Executor node = 2.617 (PUGGLE)
>
> %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0001000C
> %NCP-I-NMLRSP, listener response - Invalid parameter value, Maximum address
> Executor node = 2.617 (PUGGLE) I'd guess it is the related to the error you got
on 3.5 and 3.7. And that seems to have come from a machine with the address 2.699.
2.699 is my PyDECnet router that connects to Robert.
I suspect you might get even 3.5 working. But you need
to go into NCP and change a thing.
At least with RSX, you have a parameter that tells which is the highest node number it
should handle, and if you see, or configure, a number higher than that, you'll get
some kind of error similar to what you have described above.
Aha! I will look for the maximum address parameter and give it another try when I have a
chance. Maybe that parameter was just set low by default in the VMS versions which gave me
those errors.
If I can get a 3.x release running on HECNET, that would be neat.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
6:32 p.m.
Mark J. Blair [nf6x at nf6x.net] wrote:
If I can get a 3.x release running on HECNET, that would be neat.
You know VMS 3.x is really kind of primitive. For one thing, it doesn't
have long file names - only 6.3 names, like RSX. I can remember working at
DEC and anxiously awaiting the 4.x release just for the long file names
alone. There were lots of other limitations in 3.x too that I can't
remember at the moment. FWIW, I have a real 730 here and I run 4.6 for just
that reason.
Of course this is not a reason not to do it, but something to keep in
mind.
Bob
6:59 p.m.
Oh, wow! I wasn?t in 3.x long enough yesterday to notice the short file name limit. When I
downgrade my real 730, I should probably put 4.7 on it. But if I can spin up a 3.x
simulation and get it working on HECnet, I?d still like to do that just for ambiance.
--
Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net
8 p.m.
On Dec 9, 2021, at 12:32 PM, Robert Armstrong <bob
at jfcl.com> wrote:
9.3 names -- RSX always had 9 character names; the 6 char limit appears in other operating
systems like DOS11, RT11, and RSTS, also earlier in TOPS-10.
BTW, the original request asks for the oldest VMS for a 730 on HECnet, and mentions Phase
IV. That's certainly friendliest and it is of course required if you want to connect
by Ethernet. But Phase III can also be used, and Phase II provided you have either a
Phase III or a PyDECnet neighbor to connect it to.
paul
Mark J. Blair [nf6x at nf6x.net] wrote:
If I can get a 3.x release running on HECNET, that would be neat.
You know VMS 3.x is really kind of primitive. For one thing, it doesn't
have long file names - only 6.3 names, like RSX.
9:33 p.m.
On Dec 9, 2021, at 11:00 AM, Paul Koning
<paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
BTW, the original request asks for the oldest VMS for a 730 on HECnet, and mentions Phase
IV. That's certainly friendliest and it is of course required if you want to connect
by Ethernet. But Phase III can also be used, and Phase II provided you have either a
Phase III or a PyDECnet neighbor to connect it to.
Really?! How can they talk to a remote node with an area number and larger node address
numbers than they are designed for?
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
10:03 p.m.
On Dec 9, 2021, at 3:33 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at
nf6x.net> wrote:
You don't directly, that's the nature of the beast. For selected applications
"poor man's routing" lets you get there from here. For example, with file
access (thanks to VMS RMS transparent remote access) you could do something like:
type helper::far::foo.txt
where "helper" is a directly reachable VMS node. Some other applications may do
the analogous thing using the "passthrough" (a.k.a., "poor man's
routing") helper, which is an application that relays connections. I need to
reverse-engineer its protocol, it's pretty simple. TOPS-20 has one, as I recall
(which also can do ANF-10 -- or was that TOPS-10?). So does RSTS; I know VMS had one but
I don't know if it shipped with the product or was only a DEC internal tool. It
certainly got a great deal of use in the Phase III era, and later on was resurrected to
handle "hidden areas" in DEC's internal network.
paul
On Dec 9, 2021, at 11:00 AM, Paul Koning
<paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
BTW, the original request asks for the oldest VMS for a 730 on HECnet, and mentions Phase
IV. That's certainly friendliest and it is of course required if you want to connect
by Ethernet. But Phase III can also be used, and Phase II provided you have either a
Phase III or a PyDECnet neighbor to connect it to.
Really?! How can they talk to a remote node with an area number and larger node address
numbers than they are designed for?
11:28 p.m.
On 2021-12-09 22:03, Paul Koning wrote:
To answer Mark in another way - you can't. Not directly. A phase III
node can only talk to phase IV nodes in the same area, and that have a
node number below 255 in the area.
But with PMR you basically just use names, and you only need to be able
to talk with the first hop. Anything beyond that is dealt with by the
next hop. So with that you can get around the problem. The same is true
for phase IV nodes in a phase V network.
RSX have PMR as well. I've never looked much into how to use it, but I
know it has its own object number. But things like MAIL11 does it in the
application itself. Other programs I don't know. You'd probably need to
check both the specific program, and the specific OS about it.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Dec 9, 2021, at 3:33 PM, Mark J. Blair
<nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
You don't directly, that's the nature of the beast. For selected applications
"poor man's routing" lets you get there from here. For example, with file
access (thanks to VMS RMS transparent remote access) you could do something like:
type helper::far::foo.txt
where "helper" is a directly reachable VMS node. Some other applications may
do the analogous thing using the "passthrough" (a.k.a., "poor man's
routing") helper, which is an application that relays connections. I need to
reverse-engineer its protocol, it's pretty simple. TOPS-20 has one, as I recall
(which also can do ANF-10 -- or was that TOPS-10?). So does RSTS; I know VMS had one but
I don't know if it shipped with the product or was only a DEC internal tool. It
certainly got a great deal of use in the Phase III era, and later on was resurrected to
handle "hidden areas" in DEC's internal network. On Dec 9, 2021, at 11:00 AM, Paul Koning
<paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
BTW, the original request asks for the oldest VMS for a 730 on HECnet, and mentions Phase
IV. That's certainly friendliest and it is of course required if you want to connect
by Ethernet. But Phase III can also be used, and Phase II provided you have either a
Phase III or a PyDECnet neighbor to connect it to.
Really?! How can they talk to a remote node with an area number and larger node address
numbers than they are designed for?
11:52 p.m.
So, basically like bang paths in uucp? Maybe I will play with that sometime!
--
Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net
10 Dec
10 Dec
12:02 a.m.
On 2021-12-09 23:52, Mark J. Blair wrote:
So, basically like bang paths in uucp? Maybe I will
play with that sometime!
Yes. But depending on application, it might be that all machines have to
be up and running at the moment you're trying to use it, as opposed to
UUCP which was store and forward.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
1:40 a.m.
On Dec 9, 2021, at 6:02 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2021-12-09 23:52, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Right. Roughly speaking, the sending application sees that there are multiple nodes, and
that it uses PMR for this. It connects to the first of the nodes, object 63. It then
sends it the rest of the connect information. PMR picks off the next node. If that's
the last node, it connects to the requested object, otherwise again to another PMR.
VMS has PMR-like capability for network file access because RMS recognizes file names with
node name prefixes, so it's an automatic consequence of that feature. RSTS NFT (the
application which does network file access) doesn't support PMR as far as I remember.
So if you have VMS nodes around you can chain node names in file access, with RSTS-only
you cannot.
MAIL does it internally I think. Some vague memory says that RSTS network terminal
("set host") has PMR support, I need to look.
I'll definitely add PMR to PyDECnet at some point fairly soon.
paul
So, basically like bang paths in uucp? Maybe I
will play with that sometime!
Yes. But depending on application, it might be that all machines have to be up and
running at the moment you're trying to use it, as opposed to UUCP which was store and
forward.
16 Dec
16 Dec
1 a.m.
New subject: DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.5 (Was Re: Oldest VAX/VMS for VAX-11/730 on HECNET)
OK, so I fired up a VAX/VMS 3.5 node and gave it the address 42 (just a
coincidence, not an answer to any question). I demoted it to an end-node
on a dedicated virtual ethernet adapter for the circuit with
DECnet/Python. No adjacency is established. A tshark indicates
DECnet-VAX V3.0 is appearing as 1.42 on the wire. Since there is no way
to ask DECnet-VAX V3.0 to pretend it is 31.42, I am not sure what the
next step, if any, might be to hook this up to my area on HECnet.
tshark dump is at
https://www.dropbox.com/s/40hvr4x6iq3esl8/tshark-31.12-31.42-DECnet-VAX-V3.…
. Maybe Paul has some advice?
Note: When DECnet-VAX V3.0 was configured as a L1 router, it oscillated
between "circuit up" and "line fault" every few seconds.
*$ mc ncp show exec char**
*Node Volatile Characteristics as of 14-DEC-1984 23:46:34
Executor node = 42 (XXXV)
Identification?????????? = DECnet-VAX V3.0,? VMS V3.5
Management version?????? = V4.0.0
Incoming timer?????????? = 45
Outgoing timer?????????? = 45
NSP version????????????? = V3.2.0
Maximum links??????????? = 32
Delay factor???????????? = 80
Delay weight???????????? = 5
Inactivity timer???????? = 60
Retransmit factor??????? = 10
Routing version????????? = V2.0.0
Type???????????????????? = nonrouting IV
Routing timer??????????? = 600
Broadcast routing timer? = 40
Maximum address????????? = 1023
Maximum circuits???????? = 16
Maximum cost???????????? = 1022
Maximum hops???????????? = 30
Maximum visits?????????? = 63
Max broadcast nonrouters = 64
Max broadcast routers??? = 32
Maximum buffers????????? = 100
Buffer size????????????? = 576
Nonprivileged user id??? = DECNET
Default access?????????? = incoming and outgoing
Pipeline quota?????????? = 1200
*$ mc ncp show circuit una-0 char**
*Circuit Volatile Characteristics as of 14-DEC-1984 23:47:01
Circuit = UNA-0
State??????????????????? = on
Service????????????????? = disabled
Cost???????????????????? = 3
Router priority????????? = 64
Hello timer????????????? = 15
Type???????????????????? = Ethernet
*$ mc ncp show line una-0 char**
*Line Volatile Characteristics as of 14-DEC-1984 23:47:20
Line = UNA-0
Receive buffers????????? = 4
Controller?????????????? = normal
Protocol???????????????? = Ethernet
Service timer??????????? = 4000
Hardware address???????? = AA-00-04-00-2A-7C
Buffer size????????????? = 1498
Regards,
Supratim
On 12/9/21 7:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
--
On Dec 9, 2021, at 6:02 PM, Johnny
Billquist<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2021-12-09 23:52, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Right. Roughly speaking, the sending
application sees that there are multiple nodes, and that it uses PMR for this. It
connects to the first of the nodes, object 63. It then sends it the rest of the connect
information. PMR picks off the next node. If that's the last node, it connects to the
requested object, otherwise again to another PMR.
VMS has PMR-like capability for network file access because RMS recognizes file names
with node name prefixes, so it's an automatic consequence of that feature. RSTS NFT
(the application which does network file access) doesn't support PMR as far as I
remember. So if you have VMS nodes around you can chain node names in file access, with
RSTS-only you cannot.
MAIL does it internally I think. Some vague memory says that RSTS network terminal
("set host") has PMR support, I need to look.
I'll definitely add PMR to PyDECnet at some point fairly soon.
paul
So, basically like bang paths in uucp? Maybe I
will play with that sometime!
Yes. But depending on application, it might be that
all machines have to be up and running at the moment you're trying to use it, as
opposed to UUCP which was store and forward.
2:05 a.m.
New subject: DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.5 (Was Re: Oldest VAX/VMS for VAX-11/730 on HECNET)
You've got to set MAX AREA large enough; 63 is the obvious value. With it not set,
the system apparently is defaulting it to 1, so when you gave it a node address without
area number it defaulted the area number to 1, which of course can't work.
paul
On Dec 15, 2021, at 7:00 PM, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
OK, so I fired up a VAX/VMS 3.5 node and gave it the address 42 (just a coincidence, not
an answer to any question). I demoted it to an end-node on a dedicated virtual ethernet
adapter for the circuit with DECnet/Python. No adjacency is established. A tshark
indicates DECnet-VAX V3.0 is appearing as 1.42 on the wire. Since there is no way to ask
DECnet-VAX V3.0 to pretend it is 31.42, I am not sure what the next step, if any, might be
to hook this up to my area on HECnet.
tshark dump is at
https://www.dropbox.com/s/40hvr4x6iq3esl8/tshark-31.12-31.42-DECnet-VAX-V3.…
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/40hvr4x6iq3esl8/tshark-31.12-31.42-DECnet-VAX-V3.0.tar.bz2?dl=0>
. Maybe Paul has some advice?
Note: When DECnet-VAX V3.0 was configured as a L1 router, it oscillated between
"circuit up" and "line fault" every few seconds.
$ mc ncp show exec char
Node Volatile Characteristics as of 14-DEC-1984 23:46:34
Executor node = 42 (XXXV)
Identification = DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.5
Management version = V4.0.0
Incoming timer = 45
Outgoing timer = 45
NSP version = V3.2.0
Maximum links = 32
Delay factor = 80
Delay weight = 5
Inactivity timer = 60
Retransmit factor = 10
Routing version = V2.0.0
Type = nonrouting IV
Routing timer = 600
Broadcast routing timer = 40
Maximum address = 1023
Maximum circuits = 16
Maximum cost = 1022
Maximum hops = 30
Maximum visits = 63
Max broadcast nonrouters = 64
Max broadcast routers = 32
Maximum buffers = 100
Buffer size = 576
Nonprivileged user id = DECNET
Default access = incoming and outgoing
Pipeline quota = 1200
$ mc ncp show circuit una-0 char
Circuit Volatile Characteristics as of 14-DEC-1984 23:47:01
Circuit = UNA-0
State = on
Service = disabled
Cost = 3
Router priority = 64
Hello timer = 15
Type = Ethernet
$ mc ncp show line una-0 char
Line Volatile Characteristics as of 14-DEC-1984 23:47:20
Line = UNA-0
Receive buffers = 4
Controller = normal
Protocol = Ethernet
Service timer = 4000
Hardware address = AA-00-04-00-2A-7C
Buffer size = 1498
Regards,
Supratim
On 12/9/21 7:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
--
<SANYALNET-LABS-QR-CODE.png>
On Dec 9, 2021, at 6:02 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at softjar.se> <mailto:bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2021-12-09 23:52, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Right. Roughly speaking, the sending
application sees that there are multiple nodes, and that it uses PMR for this. It
connects to the first of the nodes, object 63. It then sends it the rest of the connect
information. PMR picks off the next node. If that's the last node, it connects to the
requested object, otherwise again to another PMR.
VMS has PMR-like capability for network file access because RMS recognizes file names
with node name prefixes, so it's an automatic consequence of that feature. RSTS NFT
(the application which does network file access) doesn't support PMR as far as I
remember. So if you have VMS nodes around you can chain node names in file access, with
RSTS-only you cannot.
MAIL does it internally I think. Some vague memory says that RSTS network terminal
("set host") has PMR support, I need to look.
I'll definitely add PMR to PyDECnet at some point fairly soon.
paul
So, basically like bang paths in uucp? Maybe I
will play with that sometime!
Yes. But depending on application, it might be that
all machines have to be up and running at the moment you're trying to use it, as
opposed to UUCP which was store and forward.
10:55 a.m.
New subject: DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.5 (Was Re: Oldest VAX/VMS for VAX-11/730 on HECNET)
Uh? The mac address AA-00-04-00-2A-7C means it has address 31.42. Just
sayin...
Johnny
On 2021-12-16 01:00, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
OK, so I fired up a VAX/VMS 3.5 node and gave it the
address 42 (just a
coincidence, not an answer to any question). I demoted it to an end-node
on a dedicated virtual ethernet adapter for the circuit with
DECnet/Python. No adjacency is established. A tshark indicates
DECnet-VAX V3.0 is appearing as 1.42 on the wire. Since there is no way
to ask DECnet-VAX V3.0 to pretend it is 31.42, I am not sure what the
next step, if any, might be to hook this up to my area on HECnet.
tshark dump is at
https://www.dropbox.com/s/40hvr4x6iq3esl8/tshark-31.12-31.42-DECnet-VAX-V3.…
. Maybe Paul has some advice?
Note: When DECnet-VAX V3.0 was configured as a L1 router, it oscillated
between "circuit up" and "line fault" every few seconds.
*$ mc ncp show exec char**
*Node Volatile Characteristics as of 14-DEC-1984 23:46:34
Executor node = 42 (XXXV)
Identification?????????? = DECnet-VAX V3.0,? VMS V3.5
Management version?????? = V4.0.0
Incoming timer?????????? = 45
Outgoing timer?????????? = 45
NSP version????????????? = V3.2.0
Maximum links??????????? = 32
Delay factor???????????? = 80
Delay weight???????????? = 5
Inactivity timer???????? = 60
Retransmit factor??????? = 10
Routing version????????? = V2.0.0
Type???????????????????? = nonrouting IV
Routing timer??????????? = 600
Broadcast routing timer? = 40
Maximum address????????? = 1023
Maximum circuits???????? = 16
Maximum cost???????????? = 1022
Maximum hops???????????? = 30
Maximum visits?????????? = 63
Max broadcast nonrouters = 64
Max broadcast routers??? = 32
Maximum buffers????????? = 100
Buffer size????????????? = 576
Nonprivileged user id??? = DECNET
Default access?????????? = incoming and outgoing
Pipeline quota?????????? = 1200
*$ mc ncp show circuit una-0 char**
*Circuit Volatile Characteristics as of 14-DEC-1984 23:47:01
Circuit = UNA-0
State??????????????????? = on
Service????????????????? = disabled
Cost???????????????????? = 3
Router priority????????? = 64
Hello timer????????????? = 15
Type???????????????????? = Ethernet
*$ mc ncp show line una-0 char**
*Line Volatile Characteristics as of 14-DEC-1984 23:47:20
Line = UNA-0
Receive buffers????????? = 4
Controller?????????????? = normal
Protocol???????????????? = Ethernet
Service timer??????????? = 4000
Hardware address???????? = AA-00-04-00-2A-7C
Buffer size????????????? = 1498
Regards,
Supratim
On 12/9/21 7:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
--
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Dec 9,
2021, at 6:02 PM, Johnny Billquist<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2021-12-09 23:52, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Right. Roughly speaking, the sending
application sees that there are multiple nodes, and that it uses PMR for this. It
connects to the first of the nodes, object 63. It then sends it the rest of the connect
information. PMR picks off the next node. If that's the last node, it connects to the
requested object, otherwise again to another PMR.
VMS has PMR-like capability for network file access because RMS recognizes file names
with node name prefixes, so it's an automatic consequence of that feature. RSTS NFT
(the application which does network file access) doesn't support PMR as far as I
remember. So if you have VMS nodes around you can chain node names in file access, with
RSTS-only you cannot.
MAIL does it internally I think. Some vague memory says that RSTS network terminal
("set host") has PMR support, I need to look.
I'll definitely add PMR to PyDECnet at some point fairly soon.
paul
So, basically like bang paths in uucp? Maybe I
will play with that sometime!
Yes. But depending on application, it might be that
all machines have to be up and running at the moment you're trying to use it, as
opposed to UUCP which was store and forward.
10:54 p.m.
New subject: DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.5 (Was Re: Oldest VAX/VMS for VAX-11/730 on HECNET)
On Dec 15, 2021, at 7:00 PM, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
OK, so I fired up a VAX/VMS 3.5 node and gave it the address 42 (just a coincidence, not
an answer to any question). I demoted it to an end-node on a dedicated virtual ethernet
adapter for the circuit with DECnet/Python. No adjacency is established. A tshark
indicates DECnet-VAX V3.0 is appearing as 1.42 on the wire. Since there is no way to ask
DECnet-VAX V3.0 to pretend it is 31.42, I am not sure what the next step, if any, might be
to hook this up to my area on HECnet.
tshark dump is at
https://www.dropbox.com/s/40hvr4x6iq3esl8/tshark-31.12-31.42-DECnet-VAX-V3.…
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/40hvr4x6iq3esl8/tshark-31.12-31.42-DECnet-VAX-V3.0.tar.bz2?dl=0>
. Maybe Paul has some advice?
Note: When DECnet-VAX V3.0 was configured as a L1 router, it oscillated between
"circuit up" and "line fault" every few seconds.
$ mc ncp show exec char
Node Volatile Characteristics as of 14-DEC-1984 23:46:34
Executor node = 42 (XXXV)
So I see that "max areas" does not appear in the help you showed. What happens
if you attempt to set it anyway? Is it rejected?
What happens if you attempt to set the executor address to 31.42?
The fact it doesn't even show an area number is an amazing bug. I wonder what the VMS
people thought they were doing.
paul
17 Dec
17 Dec
1:05 a.m.
New subject: DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.5 (Was Re: Oldest VAX/VMS for VAX-11/730 on HECNET)
TL;DR: sorry Johnny, now you have to add 31.42 XXXV, SimH VAX-11/780,
VMS 3.5 DECnet-VAX V3.0 but Phase-IV, to the node database :)
Paul's commands nudged something into sanity.
For those who grabbed my experimental tarball from dropbox, this is all
we needed to do (long version below).
Now ... what do we do about vaxvms 3.0 with NETACP from 3.5?
All in all, an excellent day today!
:)
On 12/16/21 4:54 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
So I see that "max areas" does not appear in
the help you showed.
?What happens if you attempt to set it anyway? ?Is it rejected?
Whoa! No complaints, and a "Maximum Area" characteristic got added!
NCP>define exec max areas 63
NCP>set exec max areas 63
NCP>show exec char
Node Volatile Characteristics as of 15-DEC-1984 23:50:32
Executor node = 42 (XXXV)
Identification?????????? = DECnet-VAX V3.0,? VMS V3.5
Management version?????? = V4.0.0
Incoming timer?????????? = 45
Outgoing timer?????????? = 45
NSP version????????????? = V3.2.0
Maximum links??????????? = 32
Delay factor???????????? = 80
Delay weight???????????? = 5
Inactivity timer???????? = 60
Retransmit factor??????? = 10
Routing version????????? = V2.0.0
Type???????????????????? = nonrouting IV
Routing timer??????????? = 600
Broadcast routing timer? = 40
Maximum address????????? = 1023
Maximum circuits???????? = 16
Maximum cost???????????? = 1022
Maximum hops???????????? = 30
Maximum visits?????????? = 63
Maximum area???????????? = 63
Max broadcast nonrouters = 64
Max broadcast routers??? = 32
Maximum buffers????????? = 100
Buffer size????????????? = 576
Nonprivileged user id??? = DECNET
Default access?????????? = incoming and outgoing
Pipeline quota?????????? = 1200
What happens if you attempt to set the executor
address to 31.42?
I'll be damned.
%OPCOM, 15-DEC-1984 23:58:12.94, message from user DECNET
DECnet event 4.15, adjacency up
From node 31.42 (XXXV), 15-DEC-1984 23:58:12.94
Circuit UNA-0, Adjacent node = 31.32
Dec 16 23:58:092021-12-16
<https://my.papertrailapp.com/systems/2021-12-16/events?focus=1408287339721158669&selected=1408287339721158669>23
<https://my.papertrailapp.com/groups/1472164/events?q=program%3A23&focus=1408287339721158669&selected=1408287339721158669>58:08.967:
PYRTR: Event type 4.14, Node reachability change#012 From node 31.3
(PYRTR), occurred 16-Dec-2021 23:58:08.967#012 Node = 31.42#012 Status =
Reachable
$ mc ncp show exec char
Node Volatile Characteristics as of 16-DEC-1984 00:01:37
Executor node = 31.42 (XXXV)
Identification?????????? = DECnet-VAX V3.0,? VMS V3.5
Management version?????? = V4.0.0
Incoming timer?????????? = 45
Outgoing timer?????????? = 45
NSP version????????????? = V3.2.0
Maximum links??????????? = 32
Delay factor???????????? = 80
Delay weight???????????? = 5
Inactivity timer???????? = 60
Retransmit factor??????? = 10
Routing version????????? = V2.0.0
Type???????????????????? = nonrouting IV
Routing timer??????????? = 600
Broadcast routing timer? = 40
Maximum address????????? = 1023
Maximum circuits???????? = 16
Maximum cost???????????? = 1022
Maximum hops???????????? = 30
Maximum visits?????????? = 63
Maximum area???????????? = 63
Max broadcast nonrouters = 64
Max broadcast routers??? = 32
Area maximum cost??????? = 1022
Area maximum hops??????? = 30
Maximum buffers????????? = 100
Buffer size????????????? = 576
Nonprivileged user id??? = DECNET
Default access?????????? = incoming and outgoing
Pipeline quota?????????? = 1200
1:30 a.m.
New subject: DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.5 (Was Re: Oldest VAX/VMS for VAX-11/730 on HECNET)
On Dec 16, 2021, at 7:05 PM, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
TL;DR: sorry Johnny, now you have to add 31.42 XXXV, SimH VAX-11/780, VMS 3.5 DECnet-VAX
V3.0 but Phase-IV, to the node database :)
Excellent news!
BTW, I wonder if you're reading too much into the DECnet/VMS product version number.
If it's anything like DECnet/E, those numbers have no connection to the DECnet
architecture "phase" number.
For that matter, even the DECnet architectural version numbers are weird. In Phase II we
have NSP 3.1, communication version number 3.1. Phase III has NSP 3.2, routing version
1.3, and session version 1.0. Phase IV is routing 2.0, NSP 4.0, session still 1.0. Then
various incremental tweaks to Phase IV gave us routing 2.1 or 2.2, NSP 4.1 and session
2.0. It gets even worse if you look at applications (DAP version 5.6 in Phase II, then up
to 6.0 and 7.0 later on) or DDCMP (3.1 is the oldest I have seen, in Phase II, then on to
4.0 in Phase III and beyond).
paul
9 Dec
9 Dec
9:30 p.m.
On Dec 9, 2021, at 4:09 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
I suspect you might get even 3.5 working. But you need to go into NCP and change a
thing.
At least with RSX, you have a parameter that tells which is the highest node number it
should handle, and if you see, or configure, a number higher than that, you'll get
some kind of error similar to what you have described above.
In RSX, this is the EXECUTOR parameter MAXIMUM ADDRESS. Check if you don't have that
one, and what it's set to in 3.5, 3.7 and 4.0.
You might also want to check for MAXIMUM AREA while you're at it...
That was the clue I needed. Thank you!
$ mc ncp
NCP>DEFINE EXECUTOR MAXIMUM ADDRESS 1023
NCP>EXIT
I think I didn't see MAXIMUM AREA in 3.7, but it appears in NCP later on.
Username: SYSTEM
Password:
Welcome to VAX/VMS version V3.7
$ @startnet
%RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0001000E
%OPCOM, 9-DEC-2021 11:59:04.72, message from user DECNET
DECnet starting
%RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0001000C
$
%OPCOM, 9-DEC-2021 11:59:08.44, message from user DECNET
DECnet event 4.10, circuit up
From node 2.616 (PUG), 9-DEC-2021 11:59:06.44
Circuit UNA-0
$
%OPCOM, 9-DEC-2021 11:59:08.44, message from user DECNET
DECnet event 4.15, adjacency up
From node 2.616 (PUG), 9-DEC-2021 11:59:06.73
Circuit UNA-0, Adjacent node = 2.698
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
DOGPAK::MBLAIR
11:24 p.m.
On 2021-12-09 21:30, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Excellent!
That parameter would only make sense if you are an area router. I wonder
if 3.7 could be that...?
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Dec 9, 2021, at 4:09 AM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
I suspect you might get even 3.5 working. But you need to go into NCP and change a
thing.
At least with RSX, you have a parameter that tells which is the highest node number it
should handle, and if you see, or configure, a number higher than that, you'll get
some kind of error similar to what you have described above.
In RSX, this is the EXECUTOR parameter MAXIMUM ADDRESS. Check if you don't have that
one, and what it's set to in 3.5, 3.7 and 4.0.
You might also want to check for MAXIMUM AREA while you're at it...
That was the clue I needed. Thank you! $ mc ncp
NCP>DEFINE EXECUTOR MAXIMUM ADDRESS 1023
NCP>EXIT
I think I didn't see MAXIMUM AREA in 3.7, but it appears in NCP later on. 
10:10 a.m.
Te old
VAX-11/780 TOY clock didn't store the year.? Instead it was
stored and loaded from the system disk file system (one of the files in
[000000] - I can't remember the exact details).? Every year in January
we had to do a "SET TIME" command to update it.
I think it's the same on all VAXen.
But usually you did not have to do a set time, since the file was/is
normally getting updated time stamps during normal operation as well, if
I remember right. But the logic will only work if the machine is
rebooted within roughly a year since it was shut down. Else the year
will be wrong.
5:34 a.m.
On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 11:56 AM Tony Nicholson <tony.nicholson at computer.org>
wrote:
[snip]
Te old VAX-11/780 TOY clock didn't store the year. Instead it was stored
and loaded from the system disk file system (one of the files in [000000] -
I can't remember the exact details). Every year in January we had to do a
"SET TIME" command to update it.
I remembered there's the following entry in the OpenVMS FAQ -
"4.1.1.3 Why does VAX need a SET TIME at least once a year?
Because the VAX Time Of Year (TOY) has a resolution of 497 days, the VAX
system time is stored using both the TOY and the OpenVMS VAX system image
SYS.EXE. Because of the use of the combination of the TOY and SYS.EXE, you
need to issue a SET TIME command (with the time parameter specified) at
least once between January 1st and about April 11th of each year, and
whenever you change system images (due to booting another OpenVMS VAX
system, booting the standalone BACKUP image, an ECO that replaces SYS.EXE,
etc). The SET TIME command (with the current time as a parameter) is
automatically issued during various standard OpenVMS procedures such as
SHUTDOWN, and it can also obviously be issued directly by a suitably
privileged user. Issuing the SET TIME command (with a parameter) resets the
value stored in the TOY, and (if necessary) also updates the portion of the
time (the current year) saved in the SYS.EXE system image. This VAX TOY
limit is the reason why OpenVMS VAX installation kits and standalone BACKUP
explicitly prompt for the time during bootstrap, and why the time value can
"get weird" if the system crashes outside the 497 day window (if no SET
TIME was issued to update the saved values), and why the time value can
"get weird" if a different SYS$SYSTEM:SYS.EXE is used (alternate system
disk, standalone BACKUP, etc)."
There's many more hints in the FAQ. To refresh your brain cells see
Stephen Hoffman's website for a PDF file at
http://www.hoffmanlabs.com/vmsfaq/vmsfaq.pdf
Tony
884
days inactive
893
days old
39 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
bob＠jfcl.com -
bqt＠softjar.se -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
gerry77＠mail.com -
lee.gleason＠comcast.net -
nf6x＠nf6x.net -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
supratim＠riseup.net -
tony.nicholson＠computer.org