DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.5 (Was Re: Oldest VAX/VMS for VAX-11/730 on HECNET) --> Supratim:vms/decnet 3.5 poisoned?
17 Dec
2021
17 Dec
'21
12:56 a.m.
Hi Supratim,
These tapes can be attached to the simh tdc# devices, read on Vms as Dda0: etc, and behave
as disk as expected. Functioning on simh Rq (Vms Dua/b) is kind of a fluke.
It looks like the decnet on vms 3.5 is poisoned by phase-IV pieces as Ethernet components
are present and component versions in sh exec are not on phase-III levels. Is there an
original distro for Vms 3.5 with original Decnet 3.5?
Analyse/image on the netacp reveals a lot of patching been done on that program and more
then netrtg31 itself does and as it carries version 2 the original is likely not there
anymore.
Reindert
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Supratim Sanyal
Sent: Thursday, 16 December, 2021 19:52
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.5 (Was Re: [HECnet] Oldest VAX/VMS for VAX-11/730 on
HECNET) --> retract
BTW, the "BE-X083A-BE - DECNET-VAX FULL FUNCTION" thing is not a tape; after
failing to mount it as a tape numerous times, a "od -a" dump looked like a
disk to me, and guess what, it mounted as a RD54.
That is the license I used and looks like it patched to DECnet v3.5. I may have a pretty
unique installation then, to be preserved.
http://iamvirtual.ca/VAX11/VAX-11-software.html
Session log:
^M$ @sys$update:vmsinstal.com NETRTG031.A^M
^M
^M
VAX/VMS Software Product Installation Procedure^M
^M
^M
It is 14-DEC-1984 at 22:33.^M
Enter a question mark (?) at any time for help.^M
^M
* Are you satisfied with the backup of your system disk [YES]? ^M
* Where will the distribution volumes be mounted: sys$manager:^M
^M
%VMSINSTAL-E-NOPRODS, None of the specified products were found.^M
^M
Enter the products to be installed from the next distribution volume set.^M
* Products [EXIT]: *^M
^M
The following products will be installed:^M
^M
NETRTG V3.1^M
NETRTG V4.0^M
^M
^M
Beginning installation of NETRTG V3.1 at 22:33^M
^M
%VMSINSTAL-I-RESTORE, Restoring product saveset A...^M
^M
DECnet-VAX Full Function Key installation^M
^M
%PATCH-I-NOLCL, image does not contain local symbols^M
%PATCH-I-NOGBL, some or all global symbols not accessible^M
%PATCH-I-WRTFIL, updating image file VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD.NETRTG031]NETACP.EXE;1^M
%VMSINSTAL-I-MOVEFILES, Files will now be moved to their target directories...^M
^M
Successful installation of NETRTG V3.1 at 22:33^M
^M
^M
^M
Beginning installation of NETRTG V4.0 at 22:33^M
^M
%VMSINSTAL-I-RESTORE, Restoring product saveset A...^M
%NETRTG-E-BADVMS, This kit requires version 4.0 of VMS.^M
%VMSINSTAL-E-STEP8FAIL, The installation of NETRTG V4.0 has failed.^M
^M
Enter the products to be installed from the next distribution volume set.^M
* Products [EXIT]: ^M
^M
VMSINSTAL procedure done at 22:33^M
^M
On 12/16/2021 12:54, Paul Koning wrote:
You may have a license problem.
If you have a DECnet that supports Ethernet, it must be Phase IV (or V, of course). That
means it is required to know about areas. If you have a version that doesn't deal
with areas, either it is terminally broken or it is crippled in a way that disables
multi-area configurations. You'll need to fix that in order to use it on HECnet.
While it's certainly possible to put a Phase III node anywhere in HECnet, with the
reachability limitations that Phase III has, it isn't possible to use a "broken
areas" Phase "IV" node at all. (Well, unless you can connect it into area
1, I suppose.)
paul
On Dec 16, 2021, at 11:08 AM, Supratim Sanyal <mailto:supratim at riseup.net>
<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
On 12/16/2021 05:41, R. Voorhorst wrote:
Question remains, how did you get Decnet 3.0 running and did you obtain the necessary
patch.
Yes, applied the license. I chose VAX/VMS 3.5 because in March of 2020 you had gone as
far as getting a license error on VMS3.0 that said it needed VMS3.4+. I also tried to use
the licensed NETACP.EXE on vms3.0, does not look promising, says it has problems loading.
At this point, Cisco may be the answer with the nifty feature for DECnet NAT, I will
explore it sometime. Anyway, my experiments are here if you or anyone is interested:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/x4e6ie4lrwi9wns/AABMogcguAcL8xPwMIDxOtNva?dl=0
On 12/16/2021 04:55, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Uh? The mac address AA-00-04-00-2A-7C means it has address 31.42. Just sayin...
It's forced at the Linux/SimH level.
On 12/15/2021 20:05, Paul Koning wrote:
You've got to set MAX AREA large enough; 63 is the obvious value. With it not set,
the system apparently is defaulting it to 1, so when you gave it a node address without
area number it defaulted the area number to 1, which of course can't work.
There is no option, at least in NCP, for any Area parameters.
NCP>help set exec
SET
EXECUTOR
Use the SET EXECUTOR command to create or modify parameters in the
volatile database which controls the network on the executor node. Use
the DEFINE EXECUTOR command to create or modify parameters in the
volatile database which controls the network on the executor node.
SET EXECUTOR (parameters ...)
Additional information available:
ALL ADDRESS node-address BROADCAST ROUTING TIMER
BUFFER SIZE number COUNTER TIMER seconds DEFAULT ACCESS
DELAY FACTOR DELAY WEIGHT IDENTIFICATION
INACTIVITY TIMER INCOMING TIMER MAXIMUM ADDRESS
MAXIMUM BROADCAST NONROUTERS MAXIMUM BROADCAST ROUTERS
MAXIMUM BUFFERS MAXIMUM CIRCUITS MAXIMUM COST
MAXIMUM HOPS MAXIMUM LINKS MAXIMUM VISITS
NONPRIVILEGED OUTGOING TIMER PIPELINE QUOTA
PRIVILEGED RETRANSMIT FACTOR ROUTING TIMER
SEGMENT BUFFER SIZE STATE SUBADDRESS range TYPE
Examples NODE
SET EXECUTOR Subtopic?
SET EXECUTOR Subtopic? ex
SET
EXECUTOR
Examples
NCP>SET EXECUTOR ADDRESS 11 BUFFER SIZE 576
This command sets the executor node's address to 11 and buffer
size to 576 bytes.
NCP>SET EXECUTOR STATE ON
This command sets the executor node's operational state to ON.
SET EXECUTOR Subtopic? ^Z
NCP>exit
$
--
Supratim Sanyal, W1XMT
39.19151 N, 77.23432 W
QCOCAL::SANYAL via HECnet
17 Dec
17 Dec
1:25 a.m.
On 12/16/21 6:56 PM, R. Voorhorst wrote:
Hi Supratim,
These tapes can be attached to the simh tdc# devices, read on Vms as
Dda0: etc, and behave as disk as expected. Functioning on simh Rq (Vms
Dua/b) is kind of a fluke.
ah, ok. thanks, noted; will adjust .ini going forward.
It looks like the decnet on vms 3.5 is poisoned by phase-IV pieces as
Ethernet components are present and component versions in sh exec are
not on phase-III levels. ?Is there an original distro for Vms 3.5 with
original Decnet 3.5?
The tape I have has the filename BB-D782F-BE_VMS_3.5.tap.tar.bz2. Can't
remember where I got it from. It has multiple savesets - required,
library, optional etc IIRC. I have dropped it in the same folder in dropbox.
Analyse/image on the netacp reveals a lot of patching been done on
that program and more then netrtg31 itself does and as it carries
version 2 the original is likely not there anymore.
Oh well - something works ... we will not be sure what, though, ever. :)
Reindert
*From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE]
*On Behalf Of *Supratim Sanyal
*Sent:* Thursday, 16 December, 2021 19:52
*To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE
*Subject:* Re: DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.5 (Was Re: [HECnet] Oldest
VAX/VMS for VAX-11/730 on HECNET) --> retract
BTW, the "BE-X083A-BE - DECNET-VAX FULL FUNCTION" thing is not a tape;
after failing? to mount? it as a tape numerous times, a? "od -a" dump
looked like a disk to me, and guess? what, it? mounted? as? a RD54.
That is the license? I used and looks like it patched to DECnet v3.5.
I may have a pretty? unique installation then, to be preserved.
http://iamvirtual.ca/VAX11/VAX-11-software.html
Session log:
^M$ @sys$update:vmsinstal.com NETRTG031.A^M
^M
^M
??????? VAX/VMS Software Product Installation Procedure^M
^M
^M
It is 14-DEC-1984 at 22:33.^M
Enter a question mark (?) at any time for help.^M
^M
* Are you satisfied with the backup of your system disk [YES]? ^M
* Where will the distribution volumes be mounted: sys$manager:^M
^M
%VMSINSTAL-E-NOPRODS, None of the specified products were found.^M
^M
Enter the products to be installed from the next distribution volume
set.^M
* Products [EXIT]: *^M
^M
The following products will be installed:^M
^M
? NETRTG V3.1^M
? NETRTG V4.0^M
^M
^M
??????? Beginning installation of NETRTG V3.1 at 22:33^M
^M
%VMSINSTAL-I-RESTORE, Restoring product saveset A...^M
^M
??? DECnet-VAX Full Function Key installation^M
^M
%PATCH-I-NOLCL, image does not contain local symbols^M
%PATCH-I-NOGBL, some or all global symbols not accessible^M
%PATCH-I-WRTFIL, updating image file
VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD.NETRTG031]NETACP.EXE;1^M
%VMSINSTAL-I-MOVEFILES, Files will now be moved to their target
directories...^M
^M
??????? Successful installation of NETRTG V3.1 at 22:33^M
^M
^M
^M
??????? Beginning installation of NETRTG V4.0 at 22:33^M
^M
%VMSINSTAL-I-RESTORE, Restoring product saveset A...^M
%NETRTG-E-BADVMS, This kit requires version 4.0 of VMS.^M
%VMSINSTAL-E-STEP8FAIL, The installation of NETRTG V4.0 has failed.^M
^M
Enter the products to be installed from the next distribution volume
set.^M
* Products [EXIT]: ^M
^M
??????? VMSINSTAL procedure done at 22:33^M
^M
On 12/16/2021 12:54, Paul Koning wrote:
You may have a license problem.
If you have a DECnet that supports Ethernet, it must be Phase IV (or V, of course).?
That means it is required to know about areas.? If you have a version that doesn't
deal with areas, either it is terminally broken or it is crippled in a way that disables
multi-area configurations.? You'll need to fix that in order to use it on HECnet.?
While it's certainly possible to put a Phase III node anywhere in HECnet, with the
reachability limitations that Phase III has, it isn't possible to use a "broken
areas" Phase "IV" node at all.? (Well, unless you can connect it into area
1, I suppose.)
? paul
On Dec 16, 2021, at 11:08 AM, Supratim Sanyal<supratim at riseup.net>
<mailto:supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
On 12/16/2021 05:41, R. Voorhorst wrote:
Question? remains, how did you get Decnet 3.0 running and did you obtain the
necessary patch.
Yes, applied the license. I? chose VAX/VMS 3.5 because in? March of 2020 you had
gone as far as getting a license error on VMS3.0 that said it needed VMS3.4+. I also tried
to use the licensed NETACP.EXE on vms3.0, does not look promising, says it has problems
loading. At this point, Cisco may be? the answer with the nifty feature for DECnet NAT, I
will explore it sometime. Anyway, my experiments are here if you or anyone is
interested:https://www.dropbox.com/sh/x4e6ie4lrwi9wns/AABMogcguAcL8xPwMIDxO…
On 12/16/2021 04:55, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Uh? The mac address AA-00-04-00-2A-7C means it has address 31.42. Just
sayin...
It's forced at the Linux/SimH level.
On 12/15/2021 20:05, Paul Koning wrote:
You've got to set MAX AREA large enough; 63 is the obvious value.? With
it not set, the system apparently is defaulting it to 1, so when you gave it a node
address without area number it defaulted the area number to 1, which of course can't
work.
There is no option, at least in NCP, for any Area parameters.
NCP>help set exec
SET
? EXECUTOR
??? Use the SET EXECUTOR command to create or modify parameters in the
??? volatile database which controls the network on the executor node. Use
??? the DEFINE EXECUTOR command to create or modify parameters in the
??? volatile database which controls the network on the executor node.
??? SET???? EXECUTOR??????? (parameters ...)
??? Additional information available:
??? ALL??????? ADDRESS node-address? BROADCAST ROUTING TIMER
??? BUFFER SIZE number??? COUNTER TIMER seconds DEFAULT ACCESS
? ??DELAY FACTOR????????? DELAY WEIGHT????????? IDENTIFICATION
??? INACTIVITY TIMER????? INCOMING TIMER??????? MAXIMUM ADDRESS
??? MAXIMUM BROADCAST NONROUTERS???? MAXIMUM BROADCAST ROUTERS
??? MAXIMUM BUFFERS?????? MAXIMUM CIRCUITS????? MAXIMUM COST
??? MAXIMUM HOPS????????? MAXIMUM LINKS???????? MAXIMUM VISITS
??? NONPRIVILEGED???????? OUTGOING TIMER??????? PIPELINE QUOTA
??? PRIVILEGED RETRANSMIT FACTOR???? ROUTING TIMER
??? SEGMENT BUFFER SIZE?? STATE????? SUBADDRESS range????? TYPE
??? Examples?? NODE
SET EXECUTOR Subtopic?
SET EXECUTOR Subtopic? ex
SET
? EXECUTOR
??? Examples
?????????? NCP>SET EXECUTOR ADDRESS 11 BUFFER SIZE 576
?????????????? This command sets the executor node's address to 11 and
buffer
?????????????? size to 576 bytes.
??? ???????NCP>SET EXECUTOR STATE ON
?????????????? This command sets the executor node's operational state to
ON.
SET EXECUTOR Subtopic? ^Z
NCP>exit
$
--
Supratim Sanyal, W1XMT
39.19151 N, 77.23432 W
QCOCAL::SANYAL via HECnet
--
1:44 a.m.
On 2021-12-17 00:56, R. Voorhorst wrote:
Hi Supratim,
These tapes can be attached to the simh tdc# devices, read on Vms as
Dda0: etc, and behave as disk as expected. Functioning on simh Rq (Vms
Dua/b) is kind of a fluke.
Not really any fluke in it. Any disk is in the end just a bunch of
sequential disk blocks. When we're talking a simulation, they are all
the same on the host side. The only difference is the size.
(Well, simh have now artificially introduced extra meta-data which have
no relationship to the real world, but anyway...)
(And things can possibly get complicated if you have interleaving
involved one way or another at a level which is visible to software.)
A DECtape II is really a disk. Just a slow one. It has nothing to do
with tapes, in spite of the visual similarities.
Johnny
It looks like the decnet on vms 3.5 is poisoned by
phase-IV pieces as
Ethernet components are present and component versions in sh exec are
not on phase-III levels. ?Is there an original distro for Vms 3.5 with
original Decnet 3.5?
Analyse/image on the netacp reveals a lot of patching been done on that
program and more then netrtg31 itself does and as it carries version 2
the original is likely not there anymore.
Reindert
*From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] *On
Behalf Of *Supratim Sanyal
*Sent:* Thursday, 16 December, 2021 19:52
*To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE
*Subject:* Re: DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.5 (Was Re: [HECnet] Oldest
VAX/VMS for VAX-11/730 on HECNET) --> retract
BTW, the "BE-X083A-BE - DECNET-VAX FULL FUNCTION" thing is not a tape;
after failing? to mount? it as a tape numerous times, a? "od -a" dump
looked like a disk to me, and guess? what,? it? mounted? as? a RD54.
That is the license? I used and looks like it patched to DECnet v3.5. I
may have a pretty? unique installation then, to be preserved.
http://iamvirtual.ca/VAX11/VAX-11-software.html
<http://iamvirtual.ca/VAX11/VAX-11-software.html>
Session log:
^M$ @sys$update:vmsinstal.com NETRTG031.A^M
^M
^M
??????? VAX/VMS Software Product Installation Procedure^M
^M
^M
It is 14-DEC-1984 at 22:33.^M
Enter a question mark (?) at any time for help.^M
^M
* Are you satisfied with the backup of your system disk [YES]? ^M
* Where will the distribution volumes be mounted: sys$manager:^M
^M
%VMSINSTAL-E-NOPRODS, None of the specified products were found.^M
^M
Enter the products to be installed from the next distribution volume set.^M
* Products [EXIT]: *^M
^M
The following products will be installed:^M
^M
? NETRTG V3.1^M
? NETRTG V4.0^M
^M
^M
??????? Beginning installation of NETRTG V3.1 at 22:33^M
^M
%VMSINSTAL-I-RESTORE, Restoring product saveset A...^M
^M
??? DECnet-VAX Full Function Key installation^M
^M
%PATCH-I-NOLCL, image does not contain local symbols^M
%PATCH-I-NOGBL, some or all global symbols not accessible^M
%PATCH-I-WRTFIL, updating image file
VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD.NETRTG031]NETACP.EXE;1^M
%VMSINSTAL-I-MOVEFILES, Files will now be moved to their target
directories...^M
^M
??????? Successful installation of NETRTG V3.1 at 22:33^M
^M
^M
^M
??????? Beginning installation of NETRTG V4.0 at 22:33^M
^M
%VMSINSTAL-I-RESTORE, Restoring product saveset A...^M
%NETRTG-E-BADVMS, This kit requires version 4.0 of VMS.^M
%VMSINSTAL-E-STEP8FAIL, The installation of NETRTG V4.0 has failed.^M
^M
Enter the products to be installed from the next distribution volume set.^M
* Products [EXIT]: ^M
^M
??????? VMSINSTAL procedure done at 22:33^M
^M
On 12/16/2021 12:54, Paul Koning wrote:
You may have a license problem.
If you have a DECnet that supports Ethernet, it must be Phase IV (or V, of course).?
That means it is required to know about areas.? If you have a version that doesn't
deal with areas, either it is terminally broken or it is crippled in a way that disables
multi-area configurations.? You'll need to fix that in order to use it on HECnet.?
While it's certainly possible to put a Phase III node anywhere in HECnet, with the
reachability limitations that Phase III has, it isn't possible to use a "broken
areas" Phase "IV" node at all.? (Well, unless you can connect it into area
1, I suppose.)
? paul
On Dec 16, 2021, at 11:08 AM, Supratim Sanyal<supratim at riseup.net>
<mailto:supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
On 12/16/2021 05:41, R. Voorhorst wrote:
Question? remains, how did you get Decnet 3.0 running and did you obtain the
necessary patch.
Yes, applied the license. I? chose VAX/VMS 3.5 because in? March of 2020 you had
gone as far as getting a license error on VMS3.0 that said it needed VMS3.4+. I also tried
to use the licensed NETACP.EXE on vms3.0, does not look promising, says it has problems
loading. At this point, Cisco may be? the answer with the nifty feature for DECnet NAT, I
will explore it sometime. Anyway, my experiments are here if you or anyone is
interested:https://www.dropbox.com/sh/x4e6ie4lrwi9wns/AABMogcguAcL8xPwMIDxO…
<https://www.dropbox.com/sh/x4e6ie4lrwi9wns/AABMogcguAcL8xPwMIDxOtNva?dl=0>
On 12/16/2021 04:55, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Uh? The mac address AA-00-04-00-2A-7C means it has address 31.42. Just
sayin...
It's forced at the Linux/SimH level.
On 12/15/2021 20:05, Paul Koning wrote:
You've got to set MAX AREA large enough; 63 is the obvious value.? With
it not set, the system apparently is defaulting it to 1, so when you gave it a node
address without area number it defaulted the area number to 1, which of course can't
work.
There is no option, at least in NCP, for any Area parameters.
NCP>help set exec
SET
? EXECUTOR
??? Use the SET EXECUTOR command to create or modify parameters in the
??? volatile database which controls the network on the executor node. Use
??? the DEFINE EXECUTOR command to create or modify parameters in the
??? volatile database which controls the network on the executor node.
??? SET???? EXECUTOR??????? (parameters ...)
??? Additional information available:
??? ALL??????? ADDRESS node-address? BROADCAST ROUTING TIMER
??? BUFFER SIZE number??? COUNTER TIMER seconds DEFAULT ACCESS
? ??DELAY FACTOR????????? DELAY WEIGHT????????? IDENTIFICATION
??? INACTIVITY TIMER????? INCOMING TIMER??????? MAXIMUM ADDRESS
??? MAXIMUM BROADCAST NONROUTERS???? MAXIMUM BROADCAST ROUTERS
??? MAXIMUM BUFFERS?????? MAXIMUM CIRCUITS????? MAXIMUM COST
??? MAXIMUM HOPS????????? MAXIMUM LINKS???????? MAXIMUM VISITS
??? NONPRIVILEGED???????? OUTGOING TIMER??????? PIPELINE QUOTA
??? PRIVILEGED RETRANSMIT FACTOR???? ROUTING TIMER
??? SEGMENT BUFFER SIZE?? STATE????? SUBADDRESS range????? TYPE
??? Examples?? NODE
SET EXECUTOR Subtopic?
SET EXECUTOR Subtopic? ex
SET
? EXECUTOR
??? Examples
?????????? NCP>SET EXECUTOR ADDRESS 11 BUFFER SIZE 576
?????????????? This command sets the executor node's address to 11 and
buffer
?????????????? size to 576 bytes.
??? ???????NCP>SET EXECUTOR STATE ON
?????????????? This command sets the executor node's operational state to
ON.
SET EXECUTOR Subtopic? ^Z
NCP>exit
$
--
Supratim Sanyal, W1XMT
39.19151 N, 77.23432 W
QCOCAL::SANYAL via HECnet
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
2:03 a.m.
On Dec 16, 2021, at 7:44 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2021-12-17 00:56, R. Voorhorst wrote:
The other factor is that "rq" is MSCP, which is the DEC disk architecture that
supports arbitrary size disks without software change. And SIMH takes advantage of this
with the "RAUSER" type where you can pick a size, whatever is convenient.
Using a DECtape 2 image for an emulated RK05 won't work because those only come in one
size, and it isn't the one used by DECtape 2. MSCP has no such limitation
paul
Hi Supratim,
These tapes can be attached to the simh tdc# devices, read on Vms as Dda0: etc, and
behave as disk as expected. Functioning on simh Rq (Vms Dua/b) is kind of a fluke.
Not really any fluke in it. Any disk is in the end just a bunch of sequential disk
blocks. When we're talking a simulation, they are all the same on the host side. The
only difference is the size.
(Well, simh have now artificially introduced extra meta-data which have no relationship
to the real world, but anyway...)
(And things can possibly get complicated if you have interleaving involved one way or
another at a level which is visible to software.)
A DECtape II is really a disk. Just a slow one. It has nothing to do with tapes, in spite
of the visual similarities.
1071
days inactive
1072
days old
3 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
bqt＠softjar.se -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com -
supratim＠riseup.net