11 Oct
2022
11 Oct
'22
3:12 a.m.
Hey folks. This is a bit OT. I've been attempting to build APL-11
for a machine with neither FPP nor FIS, and have hit a wall. I get
multiple "Z" errors from the assembler, which is flagging instructions
whose behaviors differ between PDP-11 models.
Has anyone built this from source for something without FPP/FIS?
This is driving me nuts.
Thanks,
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
11 Oct
11 Oct
3:11 p.m.
On Oct 10, 2022, at 9:12 PM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire(a)neurotica.com> wrote:
Hey folks. This is a bit OT. I've been attempting to build APL-11 for a machine
with neither FPP nor FIS, and have hit a wall. I get multiple "Z" errors from
the assembler, which is flagging instructions whose behaviors differ between PDP-11
models.
Has anyone built this from source for something without FPP/FIS? This is driving me
nuts.
I have never seen those sources, let alone tried to build them.
Z errors may well be acceptable. The thing to do is examine the code to see what it wants
to happen, then check the model differences appendix B of the PDP11 architecture handbook
to see if your target machine does what is wanted. The primary source of Z errors I
remember is the use of the same register in an autoinc/autodec mode and as a direct source
operand; in some machines, both operand addresses are determined first and then the source
register is fetched; in others, the source is handled, then the destination. See page B-2
of the architecture handbook.
Of course another option would be to replace the offending instruction by 2-instruction
sequences that achieve the intended result without Z errors.
paul
3:54 p.m.
On 10/11/22 09:11, Paul Koning wrote:
Z errors may well be acceptable. The thing to do is
examine the code to see what it wants to happen, then check the model differences appendix
B of the PDP11 architecture handbook to see if your target machine does what is wanted.
The primary source of Z errors I remember is the use of the same register in an
autoinc/autodec mode and as a direct source operand; in some machines, both operand
addresses are determined first and then the source register is fetched; in others, the
source is handled, then the destination. See page B-2 of the architecture handbook.
Of course another option would be to replace the offending instruction by 2-instruction
sequences that achieve the intended result without Z errors.
Yes, it's the autincrement/decrement when the source/destination
operands are the same; that's covered in the earlier docs. They removed
most of that description in the later manuals, which was annoying.
I am under a looming deadline to get this running, and it's already
quite a busy few days here with hurricane recovery on top of regular
work, so I really don't have time to hack on it. What I'm trying to
build is a supported configuration according to the APL-11
documentation. It just doesn't seem to work, so I just figured I'd ask
here if anyone had done it.
Late last night I started to wonder if the Z errors were actually
supposed to have been warnings, as it did generate object files. So I
moved forward to the next step in the build, and it generated a task
file...which doesn't run. It exits immediately, no messages of any
kind. Frustrating.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
4:10 p.m.
Paul,
Is there a set of "standard macro definitions" that Dave could drop in
to replace all the "fancy non existent on his HW instructions"?
-P
(Its not a -10 so I knew nothing, just asking...)
4:21 p.m.
On 10/11/22 10:10, Peter Lothberg wrote:
Is there a set of "standard macro
definitions" that Dave could drop in
to replace all the "fancy non existent on his HW instructions"?
I can rewrite the relevant parts; I'm fluent in Macro-11. I just
have until Friday to get this done, with too much other work to do.
I'm a bit concerned, though, that this won't do it...after some
testing this morning, I'm not able to compile APL-11 from sources in
*any* configuration (FPP, FIS, etc) that results in a .tsk file that
runs, using any (emulated in simh) hardware configuration. So I think
something else is wrong, and the Z errors may not be the root of the
problem.
(LSSM has a guest flying in from California who is very excited to
write APL code on a real PDP-11, so I'm trying to get this running for him.)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
4:31 p.m.
Just wondering -- can you try to use the standard kit, installing from that? That's
presumably a binary, and should work...
paul
On Oct 11, 2022, at 10:21 AM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire(a)neurotica.com> wrote:
On 10/11/22 10:10, Peter Lothberg wrote:
Is there a set of "standard macro
definitions" that Dave could drop in
to replace all the "fancy non existent on his HW instructions"?
I can rewrite the relevant parts; I'm fluent in Macro-11. I just have until Friday
to get this done, with too much other work to do.
I'm a bit concerned, though, that this won't do it...after some testing this
morning, I'm not able to compile APL-11 from sources in *any* configuration (FPP, FIS,
etc) that results in a .tsk file that runs, using any (emulated in simh) hardware
configuration. So I think something else is wrong, and the Z errors may not be the root
of the problem.
(LSSM has a guest flying in from California who is very excited to write APL code on a
real PDP-11, so I'm trying to get this running for him.)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
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4:44 p.m.
On 10/11/22 10:31, Paul Koning wrote:
Just wondering -- can you try to use the standard kit,
installing from that? That's presumably a binary, and should work...
If by "standard kit" you mean what Mark Matlock recovered in 2020,
that's what I'm working with. That ships with binaries, but none
supporting a non-FPP configuration.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
4:55 p.m.
Dave,
The APL-11 source code as distributed by DECUS does not task build properly under
later versions of RSX. Johnny Billquist following on the work of Lee Gleason (see
https://rsx11.blogspot.com/2021/02/ ) fixed those problems. Johnny also fixed some other
issues with APL-11 like Y2K dates and named directories. It also uses I/D so the workspace
is twice as big as the normal APL-11 work space size. As Johnny said he has those fixed
sources for APL-11 on MIM.
Running with out an FPP might more easily be solved by using an FPP emulator that is
found on the DECUS SIG tapes. I used this many years ago to be able to use Fortran 77 on a
PDP-11/44 that did not have the FPP. It is a bit slower but not really any worse than
doing the FP operations inline. It worked by using the illegal instruction trap to vector
to the FPP emulator so it has the advantage of not using task address space. I think the
latest version of the FPP emulator was on the RSX86B SIG tape. The file you want is
[300,21]FPPEMULAT.MAC
If you don’t have the RSX SIG tapes handy let me know and I can send it to you by
HECnet NFT or email attachment.
Good Luck,
Mark
On Oct 11, 2022, at 9:21 AM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire(a)neurotica.com> wrote:
On 10/11/22 10:10, Peter Lothberg wrote:
Is there a set of "standard macro
definitions" that Dave could drop in
to replace all the "fancy non existent on his HW instructions"?
I can rewrite the relevant parts; I'm fluent in Macro-11. I just have until Friday
to get this done, with too much other work to do.
I'm a bit concerned, though, that this won't do it...after some testing this
morning, I'm not able to compile APL-11 from sources in *any* configuration (FPP, FIS,
etc) that results in a .tsk file that runs, using any (emulated in simh) hardware
configuration. So I think something else is wrong, and the Z errors may not be the root
of the problem.
(LSSM has a guest flying in from California who is very excited to write APL code on a
real PDP-11, so I'm trying to get this running for him.)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
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5:22 p.m.
On 10/11/22 10:55, Mark Matlock wrote:
The APL-11 source code as distributed by DECUS
does not task build properly under later versions of RSX. Johnny Billquist following on
the work of Lee Gleason (see https://rsx11.blogspot.com/2021/02/ ) fixed those problems.
Johnny also fixed some other issues with APL-11 like Y2K dates and named directories. It
also uses I/D so the workspace is twice as big as the normal APL-11 work space size. As
Johnny said he has those fixed sources for APL-11 on MIM.
Ah-HA! That fills in a few blanks. Thanks!
Running with out an FPP might more easily be
solved by using an FPP emulator that is found on the DECUS SIG tapes. I used this many
years ago to be able to use Fortran 77 on a PDP-11/44 that did not have the FPP. It is a
bit slower but not really any worse than doing the FP operations inline. It worked by
using the illegal instruction trap to vector to the FPP emulator so it has the advantage
of not using task address space. I think the latest version of the FPP emulator was on the
RSX86B SIG tape. The file you want is [300,21]FPPEMULAT.MAC
If you don’t have the RSX SIG tapes handy let me know and I can send it to you by
HECnet NFT or email attachment.
I have it; I will take a look at it tonight. A quick skim of the
comments suggests that one adds this to the build and inserts a CALL
FPINIT at program startup, does that match with your memory of using it
with F77?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
5:29 p.m.
Dave,
I’ve been looking at the FPP emulator a bit more and the [300,21]FPPEMULAT.MAC doesn’t
match what I remembered using. I’m going to do a more thorough look through the DECUS
files to see what else is there. My recollection was that we installed and fixed a
privileged task into memory during boot up and then it was like you had an FPP.
On the big 1.5 GB DECUS disk that had the original APL sources, there is another
version of the FPP emulator [6,2]FPPEM.MAC that is longer than the
RXS86B:[300,21]FPPEMULAT.MAC file that is more likely what I used on the 11/44 with out
FPP.
I’ll keep looking for a FPP emulator that seems more like what I used in the past.
Best,
Mark
On Oct 11, 2022, at 10:22 AM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire(a)neurotica.com> wrote:
On 10/11/22 10:55, Mark Matlock wrote:
The APL-11 source code as distributed by
DECUS does not task build properly under later versions of RSX. Johnny Billquist following
on the work of Lee Gleason (see https://rsx11.blogspot.com/2021/02/ ) fixed those
problems. Johnny also fixed some other issues with APL-11 like Y2K dates and named
directories. It also uses I/D so the workspace is twice as big as the normal APL-11 work
space size. As Johnny said he has those fixed sources for APL-11 on MIM.
Ah-HA! That fills in a few blanks. Thanks!
Running with out an FPP might more easily be
solved by using an FPP emulator that is found on the DECUS SIG tapes. I used this many
years ago to be able to use Fortran 77 on a PDP-11/44 that did not have the FPP. It is a
bit slower but not really any worse than doing the FP operations inline. It worked by
using the illegal instruction trap to vector to the FPP emulator so it has the advantage
of not using task address space. I think the latest version of the FPP emulator was on the
RSX86B SIG tape. The file you want is [300,21]FPPEMULAT.MAC
If you don’t have the RSX SIG tapes handy let me know and I can send it to you by
HECnet NFT or email attachment.
I have it; I will take a look at it tonight. A quick skim of the comments suggests that
one adds this to the build and inserts a CALL FPINIT at program startup, does that match
with your memory of using it with F77?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
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5:31 p.m.
On 10/11/22 11:29, Mark Matlock wrote:
I’ve been looking at the FPP emulator a bit more
and the [300,21]FPPEMULAT.MAC doesn’t match what I remembered using. I’m going to do a
more thorough look through the DECUS files to see what else is there. My recollection was
that we installed and fixed a privileged task into memory during boot up and then it was
like you had an FPP.
Oh, wow, that would be perfect in this case.
On the big 1.5 GB DECUS disk that had the original
APL sources, there is another version of the FPP emulator [6,2]FPPEM.MAC that is longer
than the RXS86B:[300,21]FPPEMULAT.MAC file that is more likely what I used on the 11/44
with out FPP.
I’ll keep looking for a FPP emulator that seems more like what I used in the past.
Thanks! I appreciate your help. I have to run over to the museum
now for a tour (not the APL guy, someone else) but will be back online
later.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
5:50 p.m.
Dave,
I just found the FP Emulator that I remember using by Glenn Everhart. The latest
version of it is on RSX83A:[312,315]FPEM.MAC
It does exist as a separate task and gets built thus:
; >MAC FPEM=[1,1]EXEMC.MLB/ML,[200,200]RSXMC,[10,10]FPEM
; >
;
; TASK BUILD:
; >RUN $BIGTKB
; .
; .
; TKB>FPEM/-FP/-CP/PR=FPEM,[1,54]RSX11M.STB
; TKB>//
Read the source and there is also an earlier version on RSX82B:[312,315] but I haven’t
looked at the differences yet.
Good Luck,
Mark
On Oct 11, 2022, at 10:31 AM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire(a)neurotica.com> wrote:
On 10/11/22 11:29, Mark Matlock wrote:
I’ve been looking at the FPP emulator a bit
more and the [300,21]FPPEMULAT.MAC doesn’t match what I remembered using. I’m going to do
a more thorough look through the DECUS files to see what else is there. My recollection
was that we installed and fixed a privileged task into memory during boot up and then it
was like you had an FPP.
Oh, wow, that would be perfect in this case.
On the big 1.5 GB DECUS disk that had the
original APL sources, there is another version of the FPP emulator [6,2]FPPEM.MAC that is
longer than the RXS86B:[300,21]FPPEMULAT.MAC file that is more likely what I used on the
11/44 with out FPP.
I’ll keep looking for a FPP emulator that seems more like what I used in the past.
Thanks! I appreciate your help. I have to run over to the museum now for a tour (not
the APL guy, someone else) but will be back online later.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
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6:52 p.m.
On 10/11/22 11:50, Mark Matlock wrote:
Dave,
I just found the FP Emulator that I remember using by Glenn Everhart. The latest
version of it is on RSX83A:[312,315]FPEM.MAC
It does exist as a separate task and gets built thus:
; >MAC FPEM=[1,1]EXEMC.MLB/ML,[200,200]RSXMC,[10,10]FPEM
; >
;
; TASK BUILD:
; >RUN $BIGTKB
; .
; .
; TKB>FPEM/-FP/-CP/PR=FPEM,[1,54]RSX11M.STB
; TKB>//
Read the source and there is also an earlier version on RSX82B:[312,315] but I haven’t
looked at the differences yet.
That looks right. The blurb in readme.1st says "it needs
work to run on M+ V2", though. :-/
Heading out now, back later.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
10:46 p.m.
On 2022-10-11 18:52, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 10/11/22 11:50, Mark Matlock wrote:
That implies it was written with M+ V1. V2 was a fairly significant
change, so you'll probably need some serious work to get that running.
With that said, it's something I might actually look at sometime, but
not in time for APL this week. But I think getting APL running without
FPP should not take much more time. At this point, I just need to get
one more object file, and task build, and then we'll see what happens.
But as I mentioned about the Z error not actually being errors, because
of the way the code is written. It also means that without FPP you
cannot run this code with I/D space enabled. Just pointing out the obvious.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Dave,
I just found the FP Emulator that I remember using by Glenn
Everhart. The latest version of it is on RSX83A:[312,315]FPEM.MAC
It does exist as a separate task and gets built thus:
; >MAC FPEM=[1,1]EXEMC.MLB/ML,[200,200]RSXMC,[10,10]FPEM
; >
;
; TASK BUILD:
; >RUN $BIGTKB
; .
; .
; TKB>FPEM/-FP/-CP/PR=FPEM,[1,54]RSX11M.STB
; TKB>//
Read the source and there is also an earlier version on
RSX82B:[312,315] but I haven’t looked at the differences yet.
That looks right. The blurb in readme.1st says "it needs
work to run on M+ V2", though. :-/
5:56 p.m.
On 2022-10-11 17:29, Mark Matlock wrote:
Dave,
I’ve been looking at the FPP emulator a bit more and the [300,21]FPPEMULAT.MAC
doesn’t match what I remembered using. I’m going to do a more thorough look through the
DECUS files to see what else is there. My recollection was that we installed and fixed a
privileged task into memory during boot up and then it was like you had an FPP.
I haven't seen something like that for RSX, but it would be cool. I
might look around as well.
But otherwise, this is what is done in 2.11BSD, except it's in the
kernel itself. No separate task.
Trying to think how you'd do this in RSX. I can't remember seeing any
hooks for it, so this might be a tricky one. However, having an FPP
emulator in the task space itself is fairly straight forward, and yeah,
just link, and one call to set it up should be enough.
On the big 1.5 GB DECUS disk that had the original
APL sources, there is another version of the FPP emulator [6,2]FPPEM.MAC that is longer
than the RXS86B:[300,21]FPPEMULAT.MAC file that is more likely what I used on the 11/44
with out FPP.
I’ll keep looking for a FPP emulator that seems more like what I used in the past.
Let us know what you find. I'll poke around a bit as well.
Johnny
Best,
Mark
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Oct 11, 2022, at 10:22 AM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire(a)neurotica.com> wrote:
On 10/11/22 10:55, Mark Matlock wrote:
_______________________________________________
HECnet mailing list -- hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se The APL-11 source code as distributed by
DECUS does not task build properly under later versions of RSX. Johnny Billquist following
on the work of Lee Gleason (see https://rsx11.blogspot.com/2021/02/ ) fixed those
problems. Johnny also fixed some other issues with APL-11 like Y2K dates and named
directories. It also uses I/D so the workspace is twice as big as the normal APL-11 work
space size. As Johnny said he has those fixed sources for APL-11 on MIM.
Ah-HA! That fills in a few blanks. Thanks!
Running with out an FPP might more easily be
solved by using an FPP emulator that is found on the DECUS SIG tapes. I used this many
years ago to be able to use Fortran 77 on a PDP-11/44 that did not have the FPP. It is a
bit slower but not really any worse than doing the FP operations inline. It worked by
using the illegal instruction trap to vector to the FPP emulator so it has the advantage
of not using task address space. I think the latest version of the FPP emulator was on the
RSX86B SIG tape. The file you want is [300,21]FPPEMULAT.MAC
If you don’t have the RSX SIG tapes handy let me know and I can send it to you by
HECnet NFT or email attachment.
I have it; I will take a look at it tonight. A quick skim of the comments suggests
that one adds this to the build and inserts a CALL FPINIT at program startup, does that
match with your memory of using it with F77?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
_______________________________________________
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5:26 p.m.
Just a suggestion - you might try installing Johnny's RPM on a simulated
PDP11 w/FPP first, just to be sure it works and that you aren't doing
something else wrong. Then try building the non-FPP version and replace the
existing TSK file with that.
And a question - do you have an APL terminal too? I think DEC did make
some with the APL character set, but they were very rare. Or is there some
hack for doing APL with standard ASCII (although it would be hard to think
of it as APL in that case).
Bob
5:27 p.m.
On 10/11/22 11:26, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Just a suggestion - you might try installing
Johnny's RPM on a simulated
PDP11 w/FPP first, just to be sure it works and that you aren't doing
something else wrong. Then try building the non-FPP version and replace the
existing TSK file with that.
I installed it on my 11/83 at home, which has an FPP. It runs fine
there.
And a question - do you have an APL terminal too?
I think DEC did make
some with the APL character set, but they were very rare. Or is there some
hack for doing APL with standard ASCII (although it would be hard to think
of it as APL in that case).
We don't have an APL terminal, but APL-11 can use standard ASCII, or
a VT-220 (etc) with a downloadable font.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
6:18 p.m.
On Oct 11, 2022, at 11:27 AM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire(a)neurotica.com> wrote:
On 10/11/22 11:26, Robert Armstrong wrote:
There was the LA37 if I remember right. In any case, I know APL-11 has ASCII substitutes,
for example .IO is the "quad" (input/output) symbol. That's the only thing
I remember from the 15 minute APL-11 demo I got back in 1980 or thereabouts.
paul
Just a suggestion - you might try installing
Johnny's RPM on a simulated
PDP11 w/FPP first, just to be sure it works and that you aren't doing
something else wrong. Then try building the non-FPP version and replace the
existing TSK file with that.
I installed it on my 11/83 at home, which has an FPP. It runs fine there.
And a question - do you have an APL terminal
too? I think DEC did make
some with the APL character set, but they were very rare. Or is there some
hack for doing APL with standard ASCII (although it would be hard to think
of it as APL in that case).
We don't have an APL terminal, but APL-11 can use standard ASCII, or a VT-220 (etc)
with a downloadable font. 
9:04 p.m.
I think your memory is pretty close.From the August 1979 version of the
APLSF-20 Language Manual (AA-H200A-TK), on page 1-2, one finds Table
1-1, viz:
Terminal
Designator
IBM Selectric l -type terminal with APL typing element, or equivalent
2741
Bit-paired ASCII/APL terminal
BIT
Key-paired ASCII/APL terminal
KEY
DECwriter II model LA36 with APL option (*LA37*)
LA36
Tektronix 2 4013
4013
Tektronix 2 4015
4015
Any terminal without APL character set
TTY [/terminal]
We had a number of APL terminals at Columbia; I think most were Tektronix.
However, it should be noted that this table is undoubtedly dated. The
VT102 could do APL.You needed the advanced video and printer option
(VT102-AA) and then the APL option (VT102-RA)
Same deal with the LA120, one imagines.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 10/11/22 12:18 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Oct 11, 2022, at 11:27 AM, Dave
McGuire<mcguire(a)neurotica.com> wrote:
On 10/11/22 11:26, Robert Armstrong wrote:
There was the LA37
if I remember right. In any case, I know APL-11 has ASCII substitutes, for example .IO is
the "quad" (input/output) symbol. That's the only thing I remember from the
15 minute APL-11 demo I got back in 1980 or thereabouts.
paul
_______________________________________________
HECnet mailing list --hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
To unsubscribe send an email tohecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se Just a suggestion - you might try installing
Johnny's RPM on a simulated
PDP11 w/FPP first, just to be sure it works and that you aren't doing
something else wrong. Then try building the non-FPP version and replace the
existing TSK file with that.
I installed it on my 11/83 at home, which has an
FPP. It runs fine there.
And a question - do you have an APL terminal
too? I think DEC did make
some with the APL character set, but they were very rare. Or is there some
hack for doing APL with standard ASCII (although it would be hard to think
of it as APL in that case).
We don't have an APL terminal, but APL-11 can
use standard ASCII, or a VT-220 (etc) with a downloadable font.
4:31 p.m.
What sources did you use? I had to fix some things to build and run
under RSX. My fixed version can be found on MIM.
And why are you trying without FPP? Also, I have created an RPM package
for APL, which you can just install if you have that thing running. But
that requires FPP as well.
Johnny
On 2022-10-11 15:54, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 10/11/22 09:11, Paul Koning wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Z errors may well be acceptable. The thing to do
is examine the code
to see what it wants to happen, then check the model differences
appendix B of the PDP11 architecture handbook to see if your target
machine does what is wanted. The primary source of Z errors I
remember is the use of the same register in an autoinc/autodec mode
and as a direct source operand; in some machines, both operand
addresses are determined first and then the source register is
fetched; in others, the source is handled, then the destination. See
page B-2 of the architecture handbook.
Of course another option would be to replace the offending instruction
by 2-instruction sequences that achieve the intended result without Z
errors.
Yes, it's the autincrement/decrement when the source/destination
operands are the same; that's covered in the earlier docs. They removed
most of that description in the later manuals, which was annoying.
I am under a looming deadline to get this running, and it's already
quite a busy few days here with hurricane recovery on top of regular
work, so I really don't have time to hack on it. What I'm trying to
build is a supported configuration according to the APL-11
documentation. It just doesn't seem to work, so I just figured I'd ask
here if anyone had done it.
Late last night I started to wonder if the Z errors were actually
supposed to have been warnings, as it did generate object files. So I
moved forward to the next step in the build, and it generated a task
file...which doesn't run. It exits immediately, no messages of any
kind. Frustrating.
-Dave
4:38 p.m.
On 10/11/22 10:31, Johnny Billquist wrote:
What sources did you use? I had to fix some things to
build and run
under RSX. My fixed version can be found on MIM.
I started with the sources from MIM::DU:[APL], then (last night)
moved to the distribution that Mark Matlock recovered about two years
ago. Most of my testing has been based on the latter.
And why are you trying without FPP?
Because neither of the 11/70s at LSSM has an FPP board set.
Also, I have created an RPM package
for APL, which you can just install if you have that thing running. But
that requires FPP as well.
Yes, that's how I started. I have your (wonderful) RPM system
running on all of the networked RSX machines both at LSSM and at home.
When I saw APL in the list of available packages, I thought "Oh, easy!"
...but the executable crashes due to its FPP requirement.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
4:49 p.m.
On 2022-10-11 16:38, Dave McGuire wrote:
Ah. Bummer.
Yeah. Well, ok. I'll see if I can't look at this tonight.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On 10/11/22 10:31, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Ah. Well, the code from Matlock is where I started, but that code will
not work without some fight. Which is the first parts that I fixed. The
code did some weird tricks with half-manual overlay management, which
stopped working quite some time ago.
I would definitely just use the code I fixed, since it's just various
improvements on the code Matlock located.
What sources did you use? I had to fix some
things to build and run
under RSX. My fixed version can be found on MIM.
I started with the sources from MIM::DU:[APL], then (last night)
moved to the distribution that Mark Matlock recovered about two years
ago. Most of my testing has been based on the latter. And why are
you trying without FPP?
Because neither of the 11/70s at LSSM has an FPP board set. Also, I have
created an RPM package for APL, which you can just
install if you have that thing running. But that requires FPP as well.
Yes, that's how I started. I have your (wonderful) RPM system
running on all of the networked RSX machines both at LSSM and at home.
When I saw APL in the list of available packages, I thought "Oh, easy!"
...but the executable crashes due to its FPP requirement.
14 Oct
14 Oct
10:09 a.m.
New subject: RPM (was: APL help needed)
I hope the APL playing today will work fine. Sounds like all should be
good anyway. But I realized one thing below that I maybe should comment on.
On 2022-10-11 16:38, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 10/11/22 10:31, Johnny Billquist wrote:
This is sortof a shortcoming in RPM right now, that have been brought up
by someone else as well. At the moment RPM itself have no idea about
constraints. Basically, packages might require FPP, or supervisor mode,
or whatever. But I don't have a way of tracking such requirements, or
possibly have different variants/alternatives for different hardware or
OS features. This seems like something that maybe would be good.
I've basically just started from the assumption that I only target full
fledged RSX-11M-PLUS V4 (or later), on hardware that have FPP as well as
supervisor mode.
This is probably helpful to make more clear to people, and maybe I
should think about/fix that the system can be used also if you have some
special hardware requirements/limitations.
Another thing around RPM is that at the moment, having packages from
multiple repositories are a bit tricky, and creating packages are not
very documented as well. I don't know how many people actually use RPM,
and I don't know what issues there might be.
I'm happy when I hear people finding it useful, but I mostly fix things
because of/when I have specific needs of my own that I need to get fixed.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Also, I have created an RPM package for APL,
which you can just
install if you have that thing running. But that requires FPP as well.
Yes, that's how I started. I have your (wonderful) RPM system
running on all of the networked RSX machines both at LSSM and at home.
When I saw APL in the list of available packages, I thought "Oh, easy!"
...but the executable crashes due to its FPP requirement.
15 Oct
15 Oct
4:32 p.m.
New subject: RPM (was: APL help needed)
On 10/14/22 04:09, Johnny Billquist wrote:
It would be good. Of course the simplest way is to have multiple
packages ("APL" vs. "APL-FPP" or similar) but that's a bit
"dirty".
A better approach would be a way to store those constraints,
generated and stored by "@rpm configure", which the other functions
would use to select the proper files. It could be as simple as
(transparently) pointing to a different repository of package files.
I hope the APL playing today will work fine. Sounds
like all should be
good anyway. But I realized one thing below that I maybe should comment on.
It was great! Thank you (and others) for all of your help. The guy
was able to complete one of his "bucket list" items and was very happy.
Yes,
that's how I started. I have your (wonderful) RPM system
running on all of the networked RSX machines both at LSSM and at home.
When I saw APL in the list of available packages, I thought "Oh,
easy!" ...but the executable crashes due to its FPP requirement.
This is sortof a shortcoming in RPM right now, that have been brought up
by someone else as well. At the moment RPM itself have no idea about
constraints. Basically, packages might require FPP, or supervisor mode,
or whatever. But I don't have a way of tracking such requirements, or
possibly have different variants/alternatives for different hardware or
OS features. This seems like something that maybe would be good. I've basically just started from the assumption
that I only target full
fledged RSX-11M-PLUS V4 (or later), on hardware that have FPP as well as
supervisor mode.
That's great for simh, but real hardware is a lot more variable. ;)
This is probably helpful to make more clear to people,
and maybe I
should think about/fix that the system can be used also if you have some
special hardware requirements/limitations.
Another thing around RPM is that at the moment, having packages from
multiple repositories are a bit tricky, and creating packages are not
very documented as well. I don't know how many people actually use RPM,
and I don't know what issues there might be.
Well, I can tell you that I'm the primary user of it in the "orbit"
of LSSM, but all of our guys are aware of it. I tell museum visitors
about it when it seems appropriate to bring it up in conversation;
people who understand the concept are amazed that it has been recently
implemented for PDP-11s.
I'm happy when I hear people finding it useful,
but I mostly fix things
because of/when I have specific needs of my own that I need to get fixed.
That's certainly understandable. It's a really great system and it
has helped us out at LSSM tremendously, as well as me personally at home.
LSSM has a big Itanium2 VMS machine that's our always-on HECnet node.
It also provides MOP services for our DECserver terminal servers, etc.
Because the transatlantic links can sometimes be a bit slow, and there
are several RSX-11M-PLUS systems between LSSM and my place, I maintain a
local copy of the RPM repository on that system, that I copy
periodically from MIM:: and all local instances of rpm are configured to
point at that.
What I'd really love to see is similar efforts for RSTS/E and VMS.
(and maybe even RT-11, eventually) I've not done any serious DCL coding
for probably twenty years, but maybe I could take a look at that at some
point.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
6:01 p.m.
New subject: RPM (was: APL help needed)
Dave McGuire <mcguire(a)neurotica.com>
What I'd really love to see is similar efforts for
RSTS/E and VMS.
As far as VMS goes, do you know about
http://www.vaxhaven.com/CD_Image_Archive
He has copies of most of the DEC Software Product Library CDs for both VAX and Alpha. The
SPLs contain pretty much every product DEC ever made for that platform. Most of them of
course will require a license PAK. There are a couple of images of the freeware CDs there
too, but for some reason he doesn't have all of those.
FWIW, there is an APL for VAX/VMS too; it's in the 1994 VAX/VMS SPL (but I've
forgotten which CD - sorry). I installed it on LEGATO just for fun and it seems to work -
at least it passes the IVP - but I don't know enough APL to get it to do anything
meaningful. It does know how to download the special fonts to a VT2xx or later terminal,
or to the DECwindows or VWS terminal emulators too.
Bob
6:32 p.m.
New subject: RPM (was: APL help needed)
On 10/15/22 12:01, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Yup. A fantastic archive. Finding/having the software distributions
isn't really an issue, thanks to large archives like this. My desire
for RPM on that OS is to save time and effort, just like it does for
RSX. Time is short and the museum work queue is long, so anything that
saves time is welcome.
It's also nice to be able to show off the fact that "antique" OSs can
do many of the same things that more modern ones can. Of course I'm
aware that VMS is a current OS, but the general perception is that it's
vintage, just like mainframes. The analogy that I usually use with
museum visitors is: "There were cars in 1903, but not all cars are from
1903".
What I'd
really love to see is similar efforts for RSTS/E and VMS.
As far as VMS goes, do you know about
http://www.vaxhaven.com/CD_Image_Archive
He has copies of most of the DEC Software Product Library CDs for both VAX and Alpha.
The SPLs contain pretty much every product DEC ever made for that platform. Most of them of course will require a license PAK.
There are a couple of images of the freeware CDs there too, but for some reason he
doesn't have all of those.
PAKs aren't a problem, generally.
FWIW, there is an APL for VAX/VMS too; it's in
the 1994 VAX/VMS SPL (but I've forgotten which CD - sorry). I installed it on LEGATO
just for fun and it seems to work - at least it passes the IVP - but I don't know
enough APL to get it to do anything meaningful. It does know how to download the special
fonts to a VT2xx or later terminal, or to the DECwindows or VWS terminal emulators too.
Nice, I will have to set that up!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
8:39 p.m.
New subject: RPM (was: APL help needed)
On Oct 15, 2022, at 10:32 AM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire(a)neurotica.com> wrote:
...
LSSM has a big Itanium2 VMS machine that's our always-on HECnet node. It also
provides MOP services for our DECserver terminal servers, etc. Because the transatlantic
links can sometimes be a bit slow, and there are several RSX-11M-PLUS systems between LSSM
and my place, I maintain a local copy of the RPM repository on that system, that I copy
periodically from MIM:: and all local instances of rpm are configured to point at that.
One of these days I hope to add MOP load/dump to PyDECnet. For that some network traces
of how VMS loads a terminal server would be helpful, along with a copy of the image it
uses.
What I'd really love to see is similar efforts
for RSTS/E and VMS. (and maybe even RT-11, eventually) I've not done any serious DCL
coding for probably twenty years, but maybe I could take a look at that at some point.
Late version RSTS installation seems to be about as seamless as an RPM-type tool; I think
it's little more than saying "install" and supplying a kit tape that
contains the relevant scripts and binaries. I haven't spent much time with how it
actually works.
paul
16 Oct
16 Oct
3:06 a.m.
New subject: RPM (was: APL help needed)
On 2022-10-15 20:39, Paul Koning wrote:
You can find most all images on MIM::DU:[5,54]*ENG*.SYS
Also, if I remember right, the DELUA manual (or if it was the DEUNA
one), do contain a lot about MOP, and you also have the free mopd which
you can find in the NetBSD distribution among other places.
You're talking about the install layered products process? That is
pretty nice, but it's a different thing than what RPM does.
RPM is basically having packages you download as one file, and you do an
installation without any more answers or processing by the user, and it
installs the package and makes it available for you in one go. In
addition, it also (sortof) keeps track of package dependencies and
install those also if needed, and it can do updates of packages if a new
version have been "released". I've done RPM packages for many DEC
layered products, but also for lots of other things.
See http://mim.stupi.net/rpmpkg for a list.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Oct 15, 2022, at 10:32 AM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire(a)neurotica.com> wrote:
...
LSSM has a big Itanium2 VMS machine that's our always-on HECnet node. It also
provides MOP services for our DECserver terminal servers, etc. Because the transatlantic
links can sometimes be a bit slow, and there are several RSX-11M-PLUS systems between LSSM
and my place, I maintain a local copy of the RPM repository on that system, that I copy
periodically from MIM:: and all local instances of rpm are configured to point at that.
One of these days I hope to add MOP load/dump to PyDECnet. For that some network traces
of how VMS loads a terminal server would be helpful, along with a copy of the image it
uses. What I'd
really love to see is similar efforts for RSTS/E and VMS. (and maybe even RT-11,
eventually) I've not done any serious DCL coding for probably twenty years, but maybe
I could take a look at that at some point.
Late version RSTS installation seems to be about as seamless as an RPM-type tool; I think
it's little more than saying "install" and supplying a kit tape that
contains the relevant scripts and binaries. I haven't spent much time with how it
actually works.
4:42 p.m.
New subject: RPM (was: APL help needed)
On Oct 15, 2022, at 9:06 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
On 2022-10-15 20:39, Paul Koning wrote:
You can find most all images on MIM::DU:[5,54]*ENG*.SYS
Also, if I remember right, the DELUA manual (or if it was the DEUNA one), do contain a
lot about MOP, and you also have the free mopd which you can find in the NetBSD
distribution among other places.
Thanks. I have the MOP spec, of course (and since I wrote it I should remember it...)
What I was looking for is a trace of what VMS does, since reality doesn't always match
the spec. That, and an understanding of what loadable files look like, that's an
implementation specific detail not give in the DECNet specs.
paul
On Oct
15, 2022, at 10:32 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire(a)neurotica.com> wrote:
...
LSSM has a big Itanium2 VMS machine that's our always-on HECnet node. It also
provides MOP services for our DECserver terminal servers, etc. Because the transatlantic
links can sometimes be a bit slow, and there are several RSX-11M-PLUS systems between LSSM
and my place, I maintain a local copy of the RPM repository on that system, that I copy
periodically from MIM:: and all local instances of rpm are configured to point at that.
One of these days I hope to add MOP load/dump to PyDECnet. For that some network
traces of how VMS loads a terminal server would be helpful, along with a copy of the image
it uses.
6:20 p.m.
New subject: RPM (was: APL help needed)
On 2022-10-16 16:42, Paul Koning wrote:
Hmm. I see that I conflated MOP with microcode updates a bit when trying
to remember this.
Anyway, the mopd in NetBSD can boot both DECservers as well as actual
VAXen (I've done it *lots* of times). The DELUA manual gives a good
start, and the mopd code should give enough to get it all running in
PyDECnet, I would expect.
The actual file format of the system images for the DECservers that I
have is actually the same as the RSX task image format. But it is images
without a task header (if you dive into it, you'll understand).
.tin du:[5,54]pr0801ENG.SYS
TIN V1.8
Task name: DS2$WR Date: 10-DEC-90 Pri=0. Start=013000. EXTTSK=000000.
Label block revision: 0.
Task addresses - Low: 013000, W0 high: 177777, High: 177777
Load size: 00570200 Max size: 00570200 # of window blocks: 1.
Task flags (040100): -HD -CHK
Partition: SYSTEM Offset: 000000
System ID: RSX-11M.
.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Oct 15, 2022, at 9:06 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
On 2022-10-15 20:39, Paul Koning wrote:
You can find most all images on MIM::DU:[5,54]*ENG*.SYS
Also, if I remember right, the DELUA manual (or if it was the DEUNA one), do contain a
lot about MOP, and you also have the free mopd which you can find in the NetBSD
distribution among other places.
Thanks. I have the MOP spec, of course (and since I wrote it I should remember it...)
What I was looking for is a trace of what VMS does, since reality doesn't always match
the spec. That, and an understanding of what loadable files look like, that's an
implementation specific detail not give in the DECNet specs. On Oct
15, 2022, at 10:32 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire(a)neurotica.com> wrote:
...
LSSM has a big Itanium2 VMS machine that's our always-on HECnet node. It also
provides MOP services for our DECserver terminal servers, etc. Because the transatlantic
links can sometimes be a bit slow, and there are several RSX-11M-PLUS systems between LSSM
and my place, I maintain a local copy of the RPM repository on that system, that I copy
periodically from MIM:: and all local instances of rpm are configured to point at that.
One of these days I hope to add MOP load/dump to PyDECnet. For that some network
traces of how VMS loads a terminal server would be helpful, along with a copy of the image
it uses. 
6:43 p.m.
New subject: RPM (was: APL help needed)
There is another use case for MOP downline load: VAXeln.
The ePascal build system on VMS produces VAXeln system images (*.SYS files)
that are available for download (either remote network boot from the VAXeln
systems, or via NCP TRIGGER on a VMS host).
I have such a setup available for testing. HECnet node PIRTVX is served from
node PIVAX0 in this way.
/Wilm
-----Original Message-----
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)softjar.se>
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2022 6:20 PM
To: hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
Subject: [HECnet] Re: RPM (was: APL help needed)
On 2022-10-16 16:42, Paul Koning wrote:
> On Oct 15, 2022, at 9:06 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
>
> On 2022-10-15 20:39, Paul Koning wrote:
>>> On Oct 15, 2022, at 10:32 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire(a)neurotica.com>
wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>> LSSM has a big Itanium2 VMS machine that's our always-on HECnet node.
It also provides MOP services for our DECserver terminal servers, etc.
Because the transatlantic links can sometimes be a bit slow, and there are
several RSX-11M-PLUS systems between LSSM and my place, I maintain a local
copy of the RPM repository on that system, that I copy periodically from
MIM:: and all local instances of rpm are configured to point at that.
>> One of these days I hope to add MOP load/dump
to PyDECnet. For that
some network traces of how VMS loads a terminal server would
be helpful,
along with a copy of the image it uses.
>
> You can find most all images on MIM::DU:[5,54]*ENG*.SYS
>
> Also, if I remember right, the DELUA manual (or if it was the DEUNA one),
do
contain a lot about MOP, and you also have the free mopd which you can
find in the NetBSD distribution among other places.
Thanks. I have the MOP spec, of course (and since I wrote it I should
remember
it...) What I was looking for is a trace of what VMS does, since
reality doesn't always match the spec. That, and an understanding of what
loadable files look like, that's an implementation specific detail not give
in the DECNet specs.
Hmm. I see that I conflated MOP with microcode updates a bit when trying to
remember this.
Anyway, the mopd in NetBSD can boot both DECservers as well as actual VAXen
(I've done it *lots* of times). The DELUA manual gives a good start, and the
mopd code should give enough to get it all running in PyDECnet, I would
expect.
The actual file format of the system images for the DECservers that I have
is actually the same as the RSX task image format. But it is images without
a task header (if you dive into it, you'll understand).
.tin du:[5,54]pr0801ENG.SYS
TIN V1.8
Task name: DS2$WR Date: 10-DEC-90 Pri=0. Start=013000. EXTTSK=000000.
Label block revision: 0.
Task addresses - Low: 013000, W0 high: 177777, High: 177777 Load size:
00570200 Max size: 00570200 # of window blocks: 1.
Task flags (040100): -HD -CHK
Partition: SYSTEM Offset: 000000
System ID: RSX-11M.
.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
_______________________________________________
HECnet mailing list -- hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se To unsubscribe send an email
to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se
18 Oct
18 Oct
9:02 a.m.
New subject: 31.43 (or just 43) XX Phase-II Node
XX (43 / 31.43) is a Phase-II node, a SimH VAX-11/750 (x64, Linux host)
running VAX/VMS 2.0.
Due to experimental wizardry in DECnet/Python, it appears it is possible
to SET HOST to it from TOPS-10 nodes. There is a guest/welcome123 account.
Eventually it *may* be reachable from any RSTS, RSX or TOPS-20 node as
well. Paul is continuing to do some "full intercept" magic, somehow
gluing Phase IV to Phase II ...
Johnny - can we add 31.43 (XX) to the database please?
Thanks,
Supratim
10 a.m.
New subject: 31.43 (or just 43) XX Phase-II Node
Hi.
On 2022-10-18 09:02, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
XX (43 / 31.43) is a Phase-II node, a SimH VAX-11/750
(x64, Linux host)
running VAX/VMS 2.0.
Due to experimental wizardry in DECnet/Python, it appears it is possible
to SET HOST to it from TOPS-10 nodes. There is a guest/welcome123 account.
Eventually it *may* be reachable from any RSTS, RSX or TOPS-20 node as
well. Paul is continuing to do some "full intercept" magic, somehow
gluing Phase IV to Phase II ...
I was looking a bit with Paul on this yesterday. There are still things
to figure out.
Johnny - can we add 31.43 (XX) to the database please?
Done.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
5:04 p.m.
New subject: 31.43 (or just 43) XX Phase-II Node
I think Supratim meant that VMS can already talk to it, but we're still trying to
figure out why inbound from RSTS or RSX has trouble.
paul
On Oct 18, 2022, at 11:02 AM, Robert Armstrong
<bob(a)jfcl.com> wrote:
Supratim Sanyal <supratim(a)riseup.net>
wrote:
Eventually it *may* be reachable from any RSTS, RSX or TOPS-20 node as well.
Not VMS?
Bob
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To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se
5:07 p.m.
New subject: 31.43 (or just 43) XX Phase-II Node
Well, outbound to RSX also don't seem to work.
Maybe you could do another trace when trying to connect from RSX to VMS?
That might help me some more.
Johnny
On 2022-10-18 17:04, Paul Koning wrote:
I think Supratim meant that VMS can already talk to
it, but we're still trying to figure out why inbound from RSTS or RSX has trouble.
paul
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Oct 18, 2022, at 11:02 AM, Robert Armstrong
<bob(a)jfcl.com> wrote:
_______________________________________________
HECnet mailing list -- hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se Supratim Sanyal <supratim(a)riseup.net>
wrote:
Eventually it *may* be reachable from any RSTS, RSX or TOPS-20 node as well.
Not VMS?
Bob
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To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se
11:40 p.m.
New subject: 31.43 (or just 43) XX Phase-II Node
On 10/18/22 11:07 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Well, outbound to RSX also don't seem to work.
Maybe you could do another trace when trying to connect from RSX to
VMS? That might help me some more.
tcpdump attached (31.12=RSX, 31.43=VMS2.0, 31.32=pydecnet); here's what
RSX says - it tries "RMT" and fails. TOPS-10 uses "NRT" and succeeds.
ncp
NCP>show node xx
Node summary as of 18-OCT-22 21:32:12
Remote Active Next
Node State Links Delay Circuit Node
31.43 (XX) 0 30 31.32 (PIPY)
NCP>exit
set host xx
NCT -- CTERM is not available on host
NCT -- Using RMT
RMT -- Network access failure
20 Oct
20 Oct
11:10 a.m.
New subject: 31.43 (or just 43) XX Phase-II Node
Should later VMS be able to talk to it ? It doesn't seem to work for me
(VMS 5.4):
PRRSI$ set host 31787
%SYSTEM-F-CONNECFAIL, connect to network object timed-out or failed
If I try from VMS 7.3
KRAKAR$ set host /app=rterm 31787
%SYSTEM-F-LINKABORT, network partner aborted logical link
KRAKAR$ set host /app=cterm 31787
%SYSTEM-F-NOSUCHOBJ, network object is unknown at remote node
On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 at 22:40, Supratim Sanyal <supratim(a)riseup.net> wrote:
On 10/18/22 11:07 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Well, outbound to RSX also don't seem to
work.
Maybe you could do another trace when trying to connect from RSX to
VMS? That might help me some more.
tcpdump attached (31.12=RSX, 31.43=VMS2.0, 31.32=pydecnet); here's what
RSX says - it tries "RMT" and fails. TOPS-10 uses "NRT" and
succeeds.
ncp
NCP>show node xx
Node summary as of 18-OCT-22 21:32:12
Remote Active Next
Node State Links Delay Circuit Node
31.43 (XX) 0 30 31.32 (PIPY)
NCP>exit
set host xx
NCT -- CTERM is not available on host
NCT -- Using RMT
RMT -- Network access failure
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12:43 p.m.
New subject: 31.43 (or just 43) XX Phase-II Node
On 10/20/22 5:10 AM, Trevor Warwick wrote:
Should later VMS be able to talk to it ? It doesn't seem to work for
me (VMS 5.4):
I haven't been able to talk to it from VMS later than 3.5 either. CTERM
and RTERM don't seem to find what they look for.
PRRSI$ set host 31787
%SYSTEM-F-CONNECFAIL, connect to network object timed-out or failed
If I try from VMS 7.3
KRAKAR$ set host /app=rterm 31787
%SYSTEM-F-LINKABORT, network partner aborted logical link
KRAKAR$ set host /app=cterm 31787
%SYSTEM-F-NOSUCHOBJ, network object is unknown at remote node
On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 at 22:40, Supratim Sanyal <supratim(a)riseup.net> wrote:
On 10/18/22 11:07 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
--
Well, outbound to RSX also don't seem to
work.
Maybe you could do another trace when trying to connect from RSX to
VMS? That might help me some more.
tcpdump attached (31.12=RSX, 31.43=VMS2.0, 31.32=pydecnet); here's
what
RSX says - it tries "RMT" and fails. TOPS-10 uses "NRT" and
succeeds.
ncp
NCP>show node xx
Node summary as of 18-OCT-22 21:32:12
Remote Active Next
Node State Links Delay Circuit Node
31.43 (XX) 0 30 31.32 (PIPY)
NCP>exit
set host xx
NCT -- CTERM is not available on host
NCT -- Using RMT
RMT -- Network access failure
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1:02 p.m.
New subject: 31.43 (or just 43) XX Phase-II Node
If pydecnet implements PMR (Poor Man’s Routing) and allows connection between any 2 DECnet
phases you might be able to make something work. It would look something like:
set host <PyDECnet-node>::<destination-node>
-Steve
SF:IP2
On Oct 20, 2022, at 06:43, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim(a)riseup.net> wrote:
On 10/20/22 5:10 AM, Trevor Warwick wrote:
Should later VMS be able to talk to it ? It doesn't seem to work for me (VMS 5.4):
I haven't been able to talk to it from VMS later than 3.5 either. CTERM and
RTERM don't seem to find what they look for.
PRRSI$ set host 31787
%SYSTEM-F-CONNECFAIL, connect to network object timed-out or failed
If I try from VMS 7.3
KRAKAR$ set host /app=rterm 31787
%SYSTEM-F-LINKABORT, network partner aborted logical link
KRAKAR$ set host /app=cterm 31787
%SYSTEM-F-NOSUCHOBJ, network object is unknown at remote node
On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 at 22:40, Supratim Sanyal <supratim(a)riseup.net> wrote:
--
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To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se On 10/18/22 11:07 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se Well, outbound to RSX also don't seem to
work.
Maybe you could do another trace when trying to connect from RSX to
VMS? That might help me some more.
tcpdump attached (31.12=RSX, 31.43=VMS2.0, 31.32=pydecnet); here's what
RSX says - it tries "RMT" and fails. TOPS-10 uses "NRT" and
succeeds.
ncp
NCP>show node xx
Node summary as of 18-OCT-22 21:32:12
Remote Active Next
Node State Links Delay Circuit Node
31.43 (XX) 0 30 31.32 (PIPY)
NCP>exit
set host xx
NCT -- CTERM is not available on host
NCT -- Using RMT
RMT -- Network access failure
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1:08 p.m.
New subject: 31.43 (or just 43) XX Phase-II Node
On 10/20/22 7:02 AM, Steve Davidson wrote:
If pydecnet implements PMR (Poor Man’s Routing) and
allows connection
between any 2 DECnet phases you might be able to make something work.
It would look something like:
set host <PyDECnet-node>::<destination-node>
ah yes ... it was worth a try. thanks.
$ set host pipy::xx
%SYSTEM-F-LINKEXIT, network partner exited
-Steve
SF:IP2
--
On Oct 20, 2022, at 06:43, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim(a)riseup.net> wrote:
On 10/20/22 5:10 AM, Trevor Warwick wrote:
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Should later VMS be able to talk to it ? It doesn't seem to work for
me (VMS 5.4):
I haven't been able to talk to it from VMS later than 3.5 either.
CTERM and RTERM don't seem to find what they look for.
PRRSI$ set host 31787
%SYSTEM-F-CONNECFAIL, connect to network object timed-out or failed
If I try from VMS 7.3
KRAKAR$ set host /app=rterm 31787
%SYSTEM-F-LINKABORT, network partner aborted logical link
KRAKAR$ set host /app=cterm 31787
%SYSTEM-F-NOSUCHOBJ, network object is unknown at remote node
On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 at 22:40, Supratim Sanyal <supratim(a)riseup.net>
wrote:
On 10/18/22 11:07 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
--
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To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se Well, outbound to RSX also don't seem to
work.
Maybe you could do another trace when trying to connect from
RSX to
VMS? That might help me some more.
tcpdump attached (31.12=RSX, 31.43=VMS2.0, 31.32=pydecnet);
here's what
RSX says - it tries "RMT" and fails. TOPS-10 uses "NRT" and
succeeds.
ncp
NCP>show node xx
Node summary as of 18-OCT-22 21:32:12
Remote Active Next
Node State Links Delay Circuit Node
31.43 (XX) 0 30 31.32 (PIPY)
NCP>exit
set host xx
NCT -- CTERM is not available on host
NCT -- Using RMT
RMT -- Network access failure
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26 Oct
26 Oct
2:09 a.m.
New subject: 31.43 (or just 43) XX Phase-II Node
At this point, the V3.5 node 31.42 (XXXV) continues to happily speak
Phase-IV on UNA-0 and Phase-II on DMC-0. I have added guest accounts on
both 31.42 (XXXV) and 43 (XX) with password welcome123. So, to log into
VAX/VMS 2.0 from any HECnet node that supports RTERM, 31.42 (XXXV) can
be used as a jumpbox. Per Paul, if DECnet/VAX v3.0 running on VMSv3.5
implemented intercept, it would have been a great router.
I also wonder how V3.5 and V2.0 seem to be fine with current clock times.
Anyway, from an ovms7.3 node, for example, here is logging into VAX/VMS
v2.0 with DECnet/VAX v1.5.
$
$ set host/appl=rterm 31.42
%REM-I-CONNECTION, connection made using RTERM protocol
---snip---
Username: GUEST
Password:
Welcome to XXXV (31.42), a DEC VAX-11/780 running VAX/VMS 3.5
You can login over DECnet using:
$ MCR NCP SET NODE XXXV ADDR 31.42
$ SET HOST/APPLICATION_PROTOCOL=RTERM XXXV
Admin contact: https://goo.gl/FqzyBW
Have fun!
$
$ set host xx
Username: GUEST
Password:
Welcome to VAX/VMS Version V2.0 on node _XX::
$
$ show time
26-OCT-2022 00:02:44
$
$ show net
Node Address Line State
XX 43 LOCAL ON
PIPY 32 XMA0 ON
XXXV 42 XMB0 ON
$
$ lo
GUEST logged out at 26-OCT-2022 00:03:13.87
%REM-S-END, control returned to node _XXXV::
$
$ show time
26-OCT-2022 00:03:14
$
$ lo
GUEST logged out at 26-OCT-2022 00:03:17.43
%REM-S-END, control returned to node QCOCAL::
On 10/20/22 7:08 AM, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
On 10/20/22 7:02 AM, Steve Davidson wrote:
--
If pydecnet implements PMR (Poor Man’s Routing)
and allows connection
between any 2 DECnet phases you might be able to make something work.
It would look something like:
set host <PyDECnet-node>::<destination-node>
ah yes ... it was worth a try. thanks.
$ set host pipy::xx
%SYSTEM-F-LINKEXIT, network partner exited
-Steve
SF:IP2
--
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To unsubscribe send an email tohecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se On Oct 20, 2022, at 06:43, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim(a)riseup.net> wrote:
On 10/20/22 5:10 AM, Trevor Warwick wrote:
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Should later VMS be able to talk to it ? It doesn't seem to work
for me (VMS 5.4):
I haven't been able to talk to it from VMS later than 3.5 either.
CTERM and RTERM don't seem to find what they look for.
PRRSI$ set host 31787
%SYSTEM-F-CONNECFAIL, connect to network object timed-out or failed
If I try from VMS 7.3
KRAKAR$ set host /app=rterm 31787
%SYSTEM-F-LINKABORT, network partner aborted logical link
KRAKAR$ set host /app=cterm 31787
%SYSTEM-F-NOSUCHOBJ, network object is unknown at remote node
On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 at 22:40, Supratim Sanyal <supratim(a)riseup.net>
wrote:
On 10/18/22 11:07 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> Well, outbound to RSX also don't seem to work.
>
> Maybe you could do another trace when trying to connect from
RSX to
> VMS? That might help me some more.
tcpdump attached (31.12=RSX, 31.43=VMS2.0, 31.32=pydecnet);
here's what
RSX says - it tries "RMT" and fails. TOPS-10 uses "NRT" and
succeeds.
>ncp
NCP>show node xx
Node summary as of 18-OCT-22 21:32:12
Remote Active Next
Node State Links Delay Circuit Node
31.43 (XX) 0 30 31.32 (PIPY)
NCP>exit
>set host xx
NCT -- CTERM is not available on host
NCT -- Using RMT
RMT -- Network access failure
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--
SANYALNET-LABS-QR-CODE.png
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11 Oct
11 Oct
4:29 p.m.
On 2022-10-11 15:11, Paul Koning wrote:
MIM::DU:[APL]
Manuals can be found on MIM as well. However, I don't know if the bits
for RSTS/E are in there.
Also, I have not tried building without FPP. I might check that out
later then. :-)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Oct 10, 2022, at 9:12 PM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire(a)neurotica.com> wrote:
Hey folks. This is a bit OT. I've been attempting to build APL-11 for a machine
with neither FPP nor FIS, and have hit a wall. I get multiple "Z" errors from
the assembler, which is flagging instructions whose behaviors differ between PDP-11
models.
Has anyone built this from source for something without FPP/FIS? This is driving me
nuts.
I have never seen those sources, let alone tried to build them.
6:53 p.m.
On 2022-10-11 03:12, Dave McGuire wrote:
Hey folks. This is a bit OT. I've been attempting to build APL-11
for a machine with neither FPP nor FIS, and have hit a wall. I get
multiple "Z" errors from the assembler, which is flagging instructions
whose behaviors differ between PDP-11 models.
Just as a slight side note. Those Z errors are completely fine. The code
is actually tricky, and these instructions are never executed. It's just
the way that the FPP simulation in APL-11 is encoding the arguments to
the simulation. The simulation picks up the MOV instruction after the
call to the simulation in order to find which arguments are used for the
FPP instruction. So ignore those errors.
Has anyone built this from source for something
without FPP/FIS? This
is driving me nuts.
Looking a bit at it, but I need to go away from the computer for a
while. Will be back later.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
11:15 p.m.
Ok. Very minor work was needed. I actually fixed the BRXAPL.CMD file to
generate more correct ODL files as well, since I had just handpatched
that as needed before.
Anyway, fetch MIM::DU:[APLX]. Just grab everything in there. But you
already have APL3.TSK in there built, which works. I just did a simple
test starting it and it seems to work fine.
But if needed, APL3.CMD and APL3.ODL are there, and you can play around.
You can obviously also recompile and modify just about anything else you
need.
Johnny
On 2022-10-11 03:12, Dave McGuire wrote:
Hey folks. This is a bit OT. I've been attempting to build APL-11
for a machine with neither FPP nor FIS, and have hit a wall. I get
multiple "Z" errors from the assembler, which is flagging instructions
whose behaviors differ between PDP-11 models.
Has anyone built this from source for something without FPP/FIS? This
is driving me nuts.
Thanks,
-Dave
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
12 Oct
12 Oct
1:30 a.m.
On 10/11/22 17:15, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Ok. Very minor work was needed. I actually fixed the
BRXAPL.CMD file to
generate more correct ODL files as well, since I had just handpatched
that as needed before.
Anyway, fetch MIM::DU:[APLX]. Just grab everything in there. But you
already have APL3.TSK in there built, which works. I just did a simple
test starting it and it seems to work fine.
But if needed, APL3.CMD and APL3.ODL are there, and you can play around.
You can obviously also recompile and modify just about anything else you
need.
Thank you Johnny! I just wrapped up that tour and grabbed some
dinner, going to head back over to the museum in a few minutes and will
give it a shot.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
1:35 a.m.
Hi.
On 2022-10-12 01:30, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 10/11/22 17:15, Johnny Billquist wrote:
No problem. Let me know if you hit any problems. And I hope you know
that MIM have the manuals online as well.
Also, this was good as it prompted me to not just have the fixed code,
but also correct up some build files.
And I found an Y2K bug that I had overlooked before, which now has also
been fixed.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Ok. Very minor work was needed. I actually fixed
the BRXAPL.CMD file
to generate more correct ODL files as well, since I had just
handpatched that as needed before.
Anyway, fetch MIM::DU:[APLX]. Just grab everything in there. But you
already have APL3.TSK in there built, which works. I just did a simple
test starting it and it seems to work fine.
But if needed, APL3.CMD and APL3.ODL are there, and you can play
around. You can obviously also recompile and modify just about
anything else you need.
Thank you Johnny! I just wrapped up that tour and grabbed some
dinner, going to head back over to the museum in a few minutes and will
give it a shot.
2:09 a.m.
I'm going to try to tweak this for RSTS. APL3.TSK doesn't work there because LUN
15 on RSTS is used to read overlays from the task file, so on overlaid programs the max
LUN number is 14. Then again, the user terminal is always accessible via channel zero; is
there a way in TKB to tell it that?
paul
On Oct 11, 2022, at 5:15 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
Ok. Very minor work was needed. I actually fixed the BRXAPL.CMD file to generate more
correct ODL files as well, since I had just handpatched that as needed before.
Anyway, fetch MIM::DU:[APLX]. Just grab everything in there. But you already have
APL3.TSK in there built, which works. I just did a simple test starting it and it seems to
work fine.
But if needed, APL3.CMD and APL3.ODL are there, and you can play around. You can
obviously also recompile and modify just about anything else you need.
Johnny
On 2022-10-11 03:12, Dave McGuire wrote:
Hey folks. This is a bit OT. I've been
attempting to build APL-11 for a machine with neither FPP nor FIS, and have hit a wall. I
get multiple "Z" errors from the assembler, which is flagging instructions whose
behaviors differ between PDP-11 models.
Has anyone built this from source for something without FPP/FIS? This is driving me
nuts.
Thanks,
-Dave
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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2:14 a.m.
The LUN assignments in TKB is just for setting defaults in the task
image. What you need to do is just remove the reference to 15 in there.
However, you obviously then also need to search through the actual code
for anywhere where LUN 15 is used, and change that to use LUN 0.
But you should really check through the code, and compile it for native
RSTS/E. There is a bunch of code and functions that are specifically
designed for RSTS/E use that I think would be more fun to get. Look at
the .CMD files that do the compilations and building of stuff, and start
figuring out how to do it for RSTS/E? Unfortunately no RSTS/E build
files were included. Apparently originally, under RSTS/E it is intended
to be an RTS.
Johnny
On 2022-10-12 02:09, Paul Koning wrote:
I'm going to try to tweak this for RSTS. APL3.TSK
doesn't work there because LUN 15 on RSTS is used to read overlays from the task file,
so on overlaid programs the max LUN number is 14. Then again, the user terminal is always
accessible via channel zero; is there a way in TKB to tell it that?
paul
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Oct 11, 2022, at 5:15 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
Ok. Very minor work was needed. I actually fixed the BRXAPL.CMD file to generate more
correct ODL files as well, since I had just handpatched that as needed before.
Anyway, fetch MIM::DU:[APLX]. Just grab everything in there. But you already have
APL3.TSK in there built, which works. I just did a simple test starting it and it seems to
work fine.
But if needed, APL3.CMD and APL3.ODL are there, and you can play around. You can
obviously also recompile and modify just about anything else you need.
Johnny
On 2022-10-11 03:12, Dave McGuire wrote:
_______________________________________________
HECnet mailing list -- hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se Hey folks. This is a bit OT. I've been
attempting to build APL-11 for a machine with neither FPP nor FIS, and have hit a wall. I
get multiple "Z" errors from the assembler, which is flagging instructions whose
behaviors differ between PDP-11 models.
Has anyone built this from source for something without FPP/FIS? This is driving me
nuts.
Thanks,
-Dave
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
_______________________________________________
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5:20 p.m.
On Oct 11, 2022, at 8:14 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
The LUN assignments in TKB is just for setting defaults in the task image. What you need
to do is just remove the reference to 15 in there. However, you obviously then also need
to search through the actual code for anywhere where LUN 15 is used, and change that to
use LUN 0.
But you should really check through the code, and compile it for native RSTS/E. There is
a bunch of code and functions that are specifically designed for RSTS/E use that I think
would be more fun to get. Look at the .CMD files that do the compilations and building of
stuff, and start figuring out how to do it for RSTS/E? Unfortunately no RSTS/E build files
were included. Apparently originally, under RSTS/E it is intended to be an RTS.
I'll have to give that a try. Yes, I see no build files are included, hopefully those
are not too hard to do. It looks like there is some amazing hackery where a whole
collection of runtime systems are used as a way to achieve the effect of memory resident
overlays before those became a RSTS feature.
paul
4:14 a.m.
It works! I ran over to LSSM and copied those files to the 11/70,
and ran apl3.tsk. I didn't perform any exhaustive test, but it started
up and was able to run a simple program. (the one from the installation
manual)
I've not yet tried the APL charset mode, but in ASCII mode it works
fine. Later this week I hope to test the APL charset on a VT220.
Thanks Johnny, I appreciate your help!
-Dave
On 10/11/22 17:15, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Ok. Very minor work was needed. I actually fixed the
BRXAPL.CMD file to
generate more correct ODL files as well, since I had just handpatched
that as needed before.
Anyway, fetch MIM::DU:[APLX]. Just grab everything in there. But you
already have APL3.TSK in there built, which works. I just did a simple
test starting it and it seems to work fine.
But if needed, APL3.CMD and APL3.ODL are there, and you can play around.
You can obviously also recompile and modify just about anything else you
need.
Johnny
On 2022-10-11 03:12, Dave McGuire wrote:
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Hey folks. This is a bit OT. I've been attempting to build APL-11
for a machine with neither FPP nor FIS, and have hit a wall. I get
multiple "Z" errors from the assembler, which is flagging instructions
whose behaviors differ between PDP-11 models.
Has anyone built this from source for something without FPP/FIS?
This is driving me nuts.
Thanks,
-Dave
19 Oct
19 Oct
4:47 p.m.
Hi,
A bit late catching the APL train here.
A while back, I tried installing APL040 from the Dec 1994 media collection on VAX/VMS 7.3.
It failed with 'font files not found' after loading everything from the save-sets
so it didn't commit anything to their installed locations.
I was less interested then because, at the time, I didn't have a real VTxxx terminal
capable of handling it... and I don't care for DECwindows (though it was loaded at the
time as a prerequisite). Now that I have the terminal capable of handling downloadable
fonts,
I'm tempted to try again.
Does that error message jog any memories - workarounds or verdicts (it's just broken)
?
Regards
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com]
Sent: 11 October 2022 02:13
To: hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
Subject: [HECnet] APL help needed
Hey folks. This is a bit OT. I've been attempting to build APL-11 for a machine
with neither FPP nor FIS, and have hit a wall. I get multiple "Z" errors from
the assembler, which is flagging instructions whose behaviors differ between PDP-11
models.
Has anyone built this from source for something without FPP/FIS?
This is driving me nuts.
Thanks,
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
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5:11 p.m.
The problem comes when the KITINSTAL tries to run MKFONTDIR for DECwindows
$ IF F$SEARCH("SYS$SYSTEM:DECW$MKFONTDIR.EXE;") .NES. ""
$ THEN
$ MKFONTDIR :== $DECW$MKFONTDIR
$ MKFONTDIR SYS$COMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.USER_75DPI]
$ MKFONTDIR SYS$COMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.USER_100DPI]
$ ENDIF
The error you see comes from MKFONTDIR - it's trying to add the user defined
APL fonts to the DECwindows font database, but VMSINSTAL hasn't moved the
new files there yet! Hence, no font files found. It's clearly a bug in the
KITINSTAL for this product and I can't believe it ever got shipped that way,
but there it is.
You have a few options
1) Add some other font files to the user font area so MKFONTDIR won't fail,
but you'll still have to run MKFONTDIR manually after the installation is
done.
2) OR, temporarily "hide" SYS$SYSTEM:MKFONTDIR.EXE (e.g. rename it to
FOO.EXE) so the F$SEARCH will return null and KITINSTAL will skip this step.
Then after the installation is done you'll have to restore MKFONTDIR and
also run it manually.
3) OR, fix the KITINSTAL.COM so that this command runs after the MOVEFILES
phase, put the APL saveset A back together and install normally :)
Good luck,
Bob
5:58 p.m.
Hi Bob,
Thanks indeed for that fix. I copied a font file into each of those directories and
reinstalled, then re-mkfontdir'd. It worked fine.
The VT510 I have here worked with the /terminal=vt220 and I could see the fonts fine.
I'll work out the keyboard 'issues' later :)
Regards
Keith
From: Robert Armstrong [mailto:bob@jfcl.com]
Sent: 19 October 2022 16:11
To: 'The Hobbyist DECnet mailing list' <hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se>
Subject: [HECnet] Re: APL help needed
The problem comes when the KITINSTAL tries to run MKFONTDIR for DECwindows
$ IF F$SEARCH("SYS$SYSTEM:DECW$MKFONTDIR.EXE;") .NES. ""
$ THEN
$ MKFONTDIR :== $DECW$MKFONTDIR
$ MKFONTDIR SYS$COMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.USER_75DPI]
$ MKFONTDIR SYS$COMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.USER_100DPI]
$ ENDIF
The error you see comes from MKFONTDIR - it's trying to add the user defined APL fonts
to the DECwindows font database, but VMSINSTAL hasn't moved the new files there yet!
Hence, no font files found... It's clearly a bug in the KITINSTAL for this product
and I can't believe it ever got shipped that way, but there it is.
You have a few options
1) Add some other font files to the user font area so MKFONTDIR won't fail, but
you'll still have to run MKFONTDIR manually after the installation is done.
2) OR, temporarily "hide" SYS$SYSTEM:MKFONTDIR.EXE (e.g. rename it to FOO.EXE)
so the F$SEARCH will return null and KITINSTAL will skip this step. Then after the
installation is done you'll have to restore MKFONTDIR and also run it manually.
3) OR, fix the KITINSTAL.COM so that this command runs after the MOVEFILES phase, put the
APL saveset A back together and install normally :)
Good luck,
Bob
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54 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
Dave McGuire -
Johnny Billquist -
Keith Halewood -
Mark Matlock -
Paul Koning -
Peter Lothberg -
Robert Armstrong -
Steve Davidson -
Supratim Sanyal -
Thomas DeBellis -
Trevor Warwick -
Wilm Boerhout