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INFO.TXT, was Re: [HECnet] UPDATE: HECNET.HLP file for VMS systems

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2012-12-31 17:20, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote: "Bob Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com> writes: It's been a few years since I edited that file, but there's about a 95% probability that it was created and edited with Gnu EMACS for VMS. The only other possibilities are EDT or EVE, and I'm pretty sure those both create VFC text files rather than stream. Looking around at other stuff that I've edited with EMACS on LEGATO, I see that they also have similar record formats. I've never had a problem using text files that I edited with EMACS with any VMS utility, so I'm not sure why you've got issues. VMS can process of of the RMS file formats is support. It would appear that this one format is one that RSX does not. I think that VMS is lying to itself in this case, and VMS is buying it. A file with Stream_CR, and not a single CR in the file... What would you expect the result to be? (Or rather, Emacs is lying to VMS, and VMS is buying it.) However, when feeding that file over DECnet, the result looks ugly, so the FAL in VMS isn't totally falling for the lie. :-) Johnny

13 years, 2 months

INFO.TXT, was Re: [HECnet] UPDATE: HECNET.HLP file for VMS systems

by sampsa＠mac.com

On 31 Dec 2012, at 18:19, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons <jg at jordi.guillaumes.name> wrote: El 31/12/2012, a les 17:16, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> va escriure: Stream_CR is something I can't remember seeing anywhere in the wild. Maybe something like Wang used something like that, or DG. I think one or the other might have been using pure CR terminated lines in files... I think the "classic" Mac OS (pre-OSX) used that format. I think you're right, when I got my Powerbook G4 (Panther-era) in 2004 and Classic was still around, that used to bork a lot of things between OS X and Classic apps...

13 years, 2 months

INFO.TXT, was Re: [HECnet] UPDATE: HECNET.HLP file for VMS systems

by system＠TMESIS.COM

"Bob Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com> writes: Looking more at this, I'm curious what Bob did. It might be that the file were created on Windows. It's been a few years since I edited that file, but there's about a 95% probability that it was created and edited with Gnu EMACS for VMS. The only other possibilities are EDT or EVE, and I'm pretty sure those both create VFC text files rather than stream. Looking around at other stuff that I've edited with EMACS on LEGATO, I see that they also have similar record formats. I've never had a problem using text files that I edited with EMACS with any VMS utility, so I'm not sure why you've got issues. VMS can process of of the RMS file formats is support. It would appear that this one format is one that RSX does not. Sorry for the delay, but I only read about 1/10th of the traffic on this list these days. Is it just RSX that has issues with this format? 'Tis my best educated guess having seen it all too often since the advent of > _M_iscreant _I_diot _C_oding _R_ejects _O_utputting _S_pecious _O_ften _F_lawed _T_echnology WEENDOZE. In any event, I can promise that Windows had nothing to do with it. Sorry to disappoint you :-) No disappointment in me. It's always something pleasurable when WEENDOZE is NOT involved. ;) -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

13 years, 2 months

INFO.TXT, was Re: [HECnet] UPDATE: HECNET.HLP file for VMS systems

by jg＠jordi.guillaumes.name

El 31/12/2012, a les 17:16, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> va escriure: Stream_CR is something I can't remember seeing anywhere in the wild. Maybe something like Wang used something like that, or DG. I think one or the other might have been using pure CR terminated lines in files... I think the "classic" Mac OS (pre-OSX) used that format.

13 years, 2 months

INFO.TXT, was Re: [HECnet] UPDATE: HECNET.HLP file for VMS systems

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2012-12-31 15:54, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote: Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> writes: On 2012-12-31 14:59, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote: Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> writes: LEGATO's INFO.TXT have real yucky file attributes and a real yucky file format. :-) (What on earth was used to produce it???) Stream_CR typically surfaces with files coming from WEENDOZE. Ah. Yes, that would be a possible, source, I guess. But I find Stream_CR a but surprising. Maybe I'm just too ignorant of VMS formats here. But isn't there a plain Stream as well (which also exists in RSX), in which records are terminated by CR+LF, and which is what I would expect a Windows machine to produce... VMS file formats: FIX ........ Fixed Record Size; Length in MRS VAR ........ Variable; Length embedded in record VFC ........ Variable Format Control; Length and Format embedded in record Stream ..... Stream; Length from scan for <CR><LF> Stream_LF .. Stream; Length from scan for <LF> Stream_CR .. Stream; Length from scan for <CR> UDF ........ Undefinded. Basically a superset of that I have in RSX, yes. The ones "missing" are Stream_LF and Stream_CR. Directory LEGATO::SYS$SPECIFIC:[FAL$SERVER] 31-DEC-12 13:59:07 INFO.TXT;1 Size: 8./35. Created: 08-JUL-10 10:54:52 Owner: [000376,000373] Revised: 27-DEC-12 19:24:34(6.) Expires: <none_specified> File protection: System:RE, Owner:RE, Group:RE, World:RE File organization: Sequential File attributes: Allocation=0 Record format: Stream-CR, no maximum defined Record attributes: Carriage return What does it mean if you have stream-CR and attribute Carriage Return? I mean, yes, each record is separated by a CR, and then what? Add an additional CR at the end of each line? "Record format" refers to the data in the file. Stream_CR means that the records are delineated with a <carriage-return> character. RMS will then populate its internal buffers and the user's buffer upon a $GET with the current record data up to the <carriage-return> character. RMS internal handlers discard this <carriage-return> and update the NRP (Next Record Pointer) leaving it pointing after the <carriage-return> to a subsequent (assuming there is one) record. "Record attributes" refer to how to present the record to the application that performed the $GET to read the record. With "Record attributes" set to "Carriage return", RMS will synthesize a record with <carriage-return> and <line-feed>. If the "Record format" is VFC (Variable Format Control), this synthesis is over-ruled by the format in the VFC header of each and every record. Ah. This do make sense, actually, and matches RSX. (Except there is no Stream_CR, there is only a Stream format.) Perhaps becasue there was no WEENDOZE when RSX was still being developed by d|i|g|i|t|a|l. True. But Windows use CR+LF to terminate lines. That is what Stream deals with anyway, and that is a format used by plenty of other OSes as well. Stream_CR is something I can't remember seeing anywhere in the wild. Maybe something like Wang used something like that, or DG. I think one or the other might have been using pure CR terminated lines in files... (Well, and RSX did continue to be developed into the 90s...) I obviously did not think enough here. However, the actual contents of the file, as seen if I copy it to RSX, totally belies this, as there aren't a single CR in that whole file. But it might be that things are mangled in the process of the transfer. Very likely. I'd think that these files should be maintained on nodes in a format that is much more easily consumed by RMS and DECnet vis a vis a VAR format file. I tried transfer the file in block mode, which should not mess with anything, and it still had only linefeeds. Bob later responded that he used Emacs natively on VMS. So I'd say that VMS creates broken files. They should be Stream_LF, and not Stream_CR, based on their contents. RMS under VMS is forgiving enough to actually let you get away for the most part with this brokenness. But I totally stand by my claim that this is broken. :-) Unfortunately, I already tried it in RSX, and failed, since the whole file appears as just one big line, and Teco on RSX refuse to touch it. Maybe I should teach Teco a new trick - how to read weird stream format files... Yeah, if you lost the actual format coming from VMS (likely, since RSX doesn't have provision for STREAM_CR), then TECO isn't going to fix it up because it will not know where the record boundaries exist. In a way, no. Since TECO honestly couldn't care less about formats anyway, it should be fine. At the worst, I should just have a buffer with all the text separated by simple LFs. Unfortunately, TECO under RSX don't appreciate Stream files at all, since TECO don't even use RMS. TECO uses FCS, and FCS don't have a stream format at all. But it would be easy to fix TECO. I'm going to do that as soon as I have a few minutes over. Johnny

13 years, 2 months

INFO.TXT, was Re: [HECnet] UPDATE: HECNET.HLP file for VMS systems

by bob＠jfcl.com

Looking more at this, I'm curious what Bob did. It might be that the file were created on Windows. It's been a few years since I edited that file, but there's about a 95% probability that it was created and edited with Gnu EMACS for VMS. The only other possibilities are EDT or EVE, and I'm pretty sure those both create VFC text files rather than stream. Looking around at other stuff that I've edited with EMACS on LEGATO, I see that they also have similar record formats. I've never had a problem using text files that I edited with EMACS with any VMS utility, so I'm not sure why you've got issues. Sorry for the delay, but I only read about 1/10th of the traffic on this list these days. Is it just RSX that has issues with this format? 'Tis my best educated guess having seen it all too often since the advent of _M_iscreant _I_diot _C_oding _R_ejects _O_utputting _S_pecious _O_ften _F_lawed _T_echnology WEENDOZE. In any event, I can promise that Windows had nothing to do with it. Sorry to disappoint you :-) Bo

13 years, 2 months

INFO.TXT, was Re: [HECnet] UPDATE: HECNET.HLP file for VMS systems

by sampsa＠mac.com

On 31 Dec 2012, at 17:06, "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system at TMESIS.COM> wrote: If there is some "parser" handling these INFO files, I'd suspect that it is manifest in the parser or where the parsing is performed. If it were me, I'd use the VMS finite state parser to handle the parsing on VMS. A simple VAR format would appease VMS and RSX and, I'd wager, all other DEC OSs. The info files are text because they are easy to create (free form text + parseable bit) and are used by web services like http://rhesus.sampsa.com/cgi-bin/hecnetinfo/hecnetinfo.com My "parser" (20-30 lines of Python) downloads the data for the node, strips out everything but the free form text and creates a HELP section out of it. sampsa

13 years, 2 months

INFO.TXT, was Re: [HECnet] UPDATE: HECNET.HLP file for VMS systems

by system＠TMESIS.COM

Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> writes: On 2012-12-31 15:14, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2012-12-31 14:59, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote: Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> writes: On 2012-12-31 08:08, sampsa at mac.com wrote: Directory LEGATO::SYS$SPECIFIC:[FAL$SERVER] 31-DEC-12 13:59:07 INFO.TXT;1 Size: 8./35. Created: 08-JUL-10 10:54:52 Owner: [000376,000373] Revised: 27-DEC-12 19:24:34(6.) Expires: <none_specified> File protection: System:RE, Owner:RE, Group:RE, World:RE File organization: Sequential File attributes: Allocation=0 Record format: Stream-CR, no maximum defined Record attributes: Carriage return What does it mean if you have stream-CR and attribute Carriage Return? I mean, yes, each record is separated by a CR, and then what? Add an additional CR at the end of each line? "Record format" refers to the data in the file. Stream_CR means that the records are delineated with a <carriage-return> character. RMS will then populate its internal buffers and the user's buffer upon a $GET with the current record data up to the <carriage-return> character. RMS internal handlers discard this <carriage-return> and update the NRP (Next Record Pointer) leaving it pointing after the <carriage-return> to a subsequent (assuming there is one) record. "Record attributes" refer to how to present the record to the application that performed the $GET to read the record. With "Record attributes" set to "Carriage return", RMS will synthesize a record with <carriage-return> and <line-feed>. If the "Record format" is VFC (Variable Format Control), this synthesis is over-ruled by the format in the VFC header of each and every record. Ah. This do make sense, actually, and matches RSX. (Except there is no Stream_CR, there is only a Stream format.) I obviously did not think enough here. However, the actual contents of the file, as seen if I copy it to RSX, totally belies this, as there aren't a single CR in that whole file. But it might be that things are mangled in the process of the transfer. Looking more at this, I'm curious what Bob did. It might be that the file were created on Windows. 'Tis my best educated guess having seen it all too often since the advent of _M_iscreant _I_diot _C_oding _R_ejects _O_utputting _S_pecious _O_ften _F_lawed _T_echnology WEENDOZE. However, transferred to VMS, the file do not have a a single CR, but do have plenty of LF. That smells very much like Unix. But the record format is broken. It should be Stream_LF. Funnily enough, VMS seems to think that the LF still a delimiter for the record, but it is not stripped out. Reading the file from RSX, this means I get an additional LF for each record read. I wonder why that don't happen in VMS... (This is obvious if you look at the web service on MIM compared to RHESUS.) So, end result in RSX: I read each record. Each record ends with an LF. And then the record format implies a CR+LF as well. I think I've ruled out and transfer mangling by now. The file really only have LFs in there, apart from the text. I would have expected VMS to perhaps not consider the file to be more than one record, since there is no CR, but it then appears that Stream, Stream_CR and Stream_LF only differs on what they strip out, not in what they consider to be record separators. I learned something new today. Stream in RSX is more than enough for me, so I won't ever worry about the special variants of stream that VMS have anymore. :-) I think fugly is an appropriate word, Brian. :-) If there is some "parser" handling these INFO files, I'd suspect that it is manifest in the parser or where the parsing is performed. If it were me, I'd use the VMS finite state parser to handle the parsing on VMS. A simple VAR format would appease VMS and RSX and, I'd wager, all other DEC OSs. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

13 years, 2 months

SIMH performance on OS X vs Linux

by sampsa＠mac.com

On 31 Dec 2012, at 17:01, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote: Interesting indeed. Lots of variables here so something is different. Assume same HW and not running a VM under the covers etc... which compiler did you use and what memory model when you built SIMH. Are all the same optimizations turned on? If different HW, could be a SW emulation of HW instruction optimizations not available on the other CPU implementation. For this reason, besides making sure the HW is that I would standardize the compiler if you can. FYI: The Intel C/C++ compiler for both Linux and OS X are the same compiler, although sometimes slightly different libraries. Tends to be a better Apples to Apples test than GCC because of some of the variations introduced into gcc by different players (plus Apple is moving away from gcc to LLVM due the silliness caused the GPL restrictions). [Non-Commerical download can be obtained at: http://software.intel.com/en-us/non-commercial-software-development These are the product bits, but has a free license key - nothing is restricted - just be honest when you sign up]. I'm not sure if we have a free download.about that Mac OS X compiler - I'll try to ask the product manager when she/he gets back after the new year. Anyway - with identical HW, a 64 bit model, using the same compiler with same optimizations for the CPU, I would expect very similar performance with some places were OS X to be slightly and Linux in a few others. In the case of SIMH on a laptop system, my expectation would be that OS X and its I/O system would have a same advantage over Linux on a same HW. Something sounds very messy if its off by a factor of 2. Clem The point is that it's on the same HW, just in a VM running Linux. Go figure, just thought it was interesting, I don't really have time to properly investigate this right now :) It has to be either the OS or the compiler, my guess is the compiler. Sampsa

13 years, 2 months

INFO.TXT, was Re: [HECnet] UPDATE: HECNET.HLP file for VMS systems

by bob＠jfcl.com

Funny thing about LEGATO's INFO.TXT - my parser looks for the .BEGIN-HECNET-INFO tag and deletes all text after that. I must have missed something - what's the funny thing? Bob

13 years, 2 months

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