On 2012-01-04 23.15, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
I assume there has to be a bit more to it, because DDCMP is a packet based protocol
(not a stream protocol as TCP is) and the higher layers rely on that. So there
presumably is some form of framing in the emulated data stream to indicate where the
packet boundaries are.
Paul, how does this work when you have DDCMP over an asynch serial line? There are no frames there. It is just a stream of bytes at the physical layer, exactly the same as TCP for example. Yet, DDCMP talks over that too... DDCMP must be implementing the blocking/deblocking on its own in that case.
Johnny
paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 5:11 PM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] Hecnet and DDCMP
All I do in SIMH is to take the data bytes each end wants to send to the other end and send them over a socket, so I don't get involved with DDCMP itself. Both ends have to be SIMH for this to work. I don't do anything at the actual hardware level, although that would be nice. I think you can get synchronous serial cards for the PC but they are quite expensive.
Regards
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE]
On Behalf Of Paul_Koning at Dell.com
Sent: 03 January 2012 21:18
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] Hecnet and DDCMP
DMC-11 speaks DDCMP V3.1 (give or take some bugs in the "high speed"
version). But that's sync only. Depending on what you want to talk
to, a
DMC
(or its relatives DMR-11, DMP-11, or DMV-11) may not help; if the
other
end
speaks DDCMP over an async link (UART) then it won't work because the
character framing doesn't match.
That said, I wonder what it means to emulate a DMC-11. You could have
it speak DDCMP over a UART, or something else entirely. If the former
it
would
talk to another DDCMP node; if the latter it would not but it would
still
work
for tying one emulated DMC-11 to another.
If you want DDCMP, one approach is to get a copy of the spec, and
implement
what it says. That works; it is how I implemented DDCMP support for
RSTS
V10
(based on an earlier version based on V9.6). The protocol is quite
simple
and
the spec is well enough written that, if you do what it says, the
result
WILL
interoperate with hardware such as the DMR-11. The only tricky one is
the
DMC-11 because it has some undocumented bugs; the main one I remember
is that the high speed version can't handle back to back packets. I
wish
I could
contribute the code I wrote but I can't, for various reasons one of
them
is that
it's a RSTS device driver and written in 100% assembly language.
It would not be hard to do a version for other platforms; I once
looked at
a
Linux terminal protocol handler (forgot what that is called) that
could
hook
into DECnet/Linux. Didn't get far enough on that, though.
paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE]
On Behalf Of Mark Abene
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 6:06 PM
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hecnet and DDCMP
Jarratt, did you make this publicly available on the SIMH list? It
would
be great
to have a DMC11 device emulated, since I insist on running RSTS/E v8
(for historical reasons... it was the last real RSTS before "the pollution").
RSTS/E v8
doesn't have ethernet support, so the only way I could have DECnet is
via
a
(previously unemulated)
DMC11 interface. Does yours work well?
-Mark
On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 3:23 AM, Jarratt RMA
<robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
Working with a friend, I have written a SIMH emulation of the DMC11
device, so you can do this with SIMH. It tunnels the bytes sent
to/from the device over a socket. We have used the SIMH emulation to
connect my friend to HECnet over a (simulated) DMC11.
The bit I am not entirely sure about is to what extent this is using
DDCMP as I don't have a full understanding of DDCMP.
Regards
Rob
On 31 December 2011 18:46, The Presence<tpresence at hotmail.com>
wrote:
Hey guys,
Has anyone worked out a mechanism to connect a node to hecnet using
DDCMP?
Perhaps some tunneling technology over IP, or virtualized serial?
Kevin
Yes, you are right, I do add a 2-byte length to the start of each buffer
that I send so that the other end can reassemble the buffer. Sorry, I did
say this in an earlier draft of the email, but decided to leave it out to
emphasise the simplicity of the implementation.
Regards
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE]
On Behalf Of Paul_Koning at Dell.com
Sent: 04 January 2012 22:15
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] Hecnet and DDCMP
I assume there has to be a bit more to it, because DDCMP is a packet based
protocol (not a stream protocol as TCP is) and the higher layers rely on
that.
So there presumably is some form of framing in the emulated data stream to
indicate where the packet boundaries are.
paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE]
On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 5:11 PM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] Hecnet and DDCMP
All I do in SIMH is to take the data bytes each end wants to send to the
other
end and send them over a socket, so I don't get involved with DDCMP
itself.
Both ends have to be SIMH for this to work. I don't do anything at the
actual
hardware level, although that would be nice. I think you can get
synchronous
serial cards for the PC but they are quite expensive.
Regards
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE]
On Behalf Of Paul_Koning at Dell.com
Sent: 03 January 2012 21:18
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] Hecnet and DDCMP
DMC-11 speaks DDCMP V3.1 (give or take some bugs in the "high speed"
version). But that's sync only. Depending on what you want to talk
to, a
DMC
(or its relatives DMR-11, DMP-11, or DMV-11) may not help; if the
other
end
speaks DDCMP over an async link (UART) then it won't work because the
character framing doesn't match.
That said, I wonder what it means to emulate a DMC-11. You could have
it speak DDCMP over a UART, or something else entirely. If the former
it
would
talk to another DDCMP node; if the latter it would not but it would
still
work
for tying one emulated DMC-11 to another.
If you want DDCMP, one approach is to get a copy of the spec, and
implement
what it says. That works; it is how I implemented DDCMP support for
RSTS
V10
(based on an earlier version based on V9.6). The protocol is quite
simple
and
the spec is well enough written that, if you do what it says, the
result
WILL
interoperate with hardware such as the DMR-11. The only tricky one is
the
DMC-11 because it has some undocumented bugs; the main one I
remember
is that the high speed version can't handle back to back packets. I
wish
I could
contribute the code I wrote but I can't, for various reasons one of
them
is that
it's a RSTS device driver and written in 100% assembly language.
It would not be hard to do a version for other platforms; I once
looked at
a
Linux terminal protocol handler (forgot what that is called) that
could
hook
into DECnet/Linux. Didn't get far enough on that, though.
paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE]
On Behalf Of Mark Abene
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 6:06 PM
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hecnet and DDCMP
Jarratt, did you make this publicly available on the SIMH list? It
would
be great
to have a DMC11 device emulated, since I insist on running RSTS/E v8
(for historical reasons... it was the last real RSTS before "the
pollution").
RSTS/E v8
doesn't have ethernet support, so the only way I could have DECnet is
via
a
(previously unemulated)
DMC11 interface. Does yours work well?
-Mark
On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 3:23 AM, Jarratt RMA
<robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
Working with a friend, I have written a SIMH emulation of the DMC11
device, so you can do this with SIMH. It tunnels the bytes sent
to/from the device over a socket. We have used the SIMH emulation to
connect my friend to HECnet over a (simulated) DMC11.
The bit I am not entirely sure about is to what extent this is using
DDCMP as I don't have a full understanding of DDCMP.
Regards
Rob
On 31 December 2011 18:46, The Presence <tpresence at hotmail.com>
wrote:
Hey guys,
Has anyone worked out a mechanism to connect a node to hecnet using
DDCMP?
Perhaps some tunneling technology over IP, or virtualized serial?
Kevin
There is a possibility to use a real system however, if a client was written that would read input from the socket and throw it out of the serial port on physical hardware? As long as the original data integrity is maintained this should work as long as timing isn't an issue, correct? You basically created a virtual driver that behaved as a serial adapter?
Was this done over TCP/IP or DecNET, or LAT or something else?
For synchronous comms (assuming DMC-11 RS232-C physical) you would need to use a 25 pin connector to wire it as it requires pins 15, 17 and 24 for the clock signal in addition to the standard async pins. It would just be a matter of putting in a microcontroller such as the launchpad or arduino to handle the synchronous communications, and then pass it back out async. Yes this would probably be very messy and perhaps the wrong way to go.
Regardless, I would love to see what you have done to get this working SIMH->SIMH.
Thanks heaps,
Kevin
> From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com
> To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
> Subject: RE: [HECnet] Hecnet and DDCMP
> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 22:10:47 +0000
>
> All I do in SIMH is to take the data bytes each end wants to send to the
> other end and send them over a socket, so I don't get involved with DDCMP
> itself. Both ends have to be SIMH for this to work. I don't do anything at
> the actual hardware level, although that would be nice. I think you can get
> synchronous serial cards for the PC but they are quite expensive.
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
I assume there has to be a bit more to it, because DDCMP is a packet based protocol (not a stream protocol as TCP is) and the higher layers rely on that. So there presumably is some form of framing in the emulated data stream to indicate where the packet boundaries are.
paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 5:11 PM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] Hecnet and DDCMP
All I do in SIMH is to take the data bytes each end wants to send to the other end and send them over a socket, so I don't get involved with DDCMP itself. Both ends have to be SIMH for this to work. I don't do anything at the actual hardware level, although that would be nice. I think you can get synchronous serial cards for the PC but they are quite expensive.
Regards
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE]
On Behalf Of Paul_Koning at Dell.com
Sent: 03 January 2012 21:18
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] Hecnet and DDCMP
DMC-11 speaks DDCMP V3.1 (give or take some bugs in the "high speed"
version). But that's sync only. Depending on what you want to talk
to, a
DMC
(or its relatives DMR-11, DMP-11, or DMV-11) may not help; if the
other
end
speaks DDCMP over an async link (UART) then it won't work because the
character framing doesn't match.
That said, I wonder what it means to emulate a DMC-11. You could have
it speak DDCMP over a UART, or something else entirely. If the former
it
would
talk to another DDCMP node; if the latter it would not but it would
still
work
for tying one emulated DMC-11 to another.
If you want DDCMP, one approach is to get a copy of the spec, and
implement
what it says. That works; it is how I implemented DDCMP support for
RSTS
V10
(based on an earlier version based on V9.6). The protocol is quite
simple
and
the spec is well enough written that, if you do what it says, the
result
WILL
interoperate with hardware such as the DMR-11. The only tricky one is
the
DMC-11 because it has some undocumented bugs; the main one I remember
is that the high speed version can't handle back to back packets. I
wish
I could
contribute the code I wrote but I can't, for various reasons one of
them
is that
it's a RSTS device driver and written in 100% assembly language.
It would not be hard to do a version for other platforms; I once
looked at
a
Linux terminal protocol handler (forgot what that is called) that
could
hook
into DECnet/Linux. Didn't get far enough on that, though.
paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE]
On Behalf Of Mark Abene
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 6:06 PM
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hecnet and DDCMP
Jarratt, did you make this publicly available on the SIMH list? It
would
be great
to have a DMC11 device emulated, since I insist on running RSTS/E v8
(for historical reasons... it was the last real RSTS before "the pollution").
RSTS/E v8
doesn't have ethernet support, so the only way I could have DECnet is
via
a
(previously unemulated)
DMC11 interface. Does yours work well?
-Mark
On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 3:23 AM, Jarratt RMA
<robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
Working with a friend, I have written a SIMH emulation of the DMC11
device, so you can do this with SIMH. It tunnels the bytes sent
to/from the device over a socket. We have used the SIMH emulation to
connect my friend to HECnet over a (simulated) DMC11.
The bit I am not entirely sure about is to what extent this is using
DDCMP as I don't have a full understanding of DDCMP.
Regards
Rob
On 31 December 2011 18:46, The Presence <tpresence at hotmail.com>
wrote:
Hey guys,
Has anyone worked out a mechanism to connect a node to hecnet using
DDCMP?
Perhaps some tunneling technology over IP, or virtualized serial?
Kevin
All I do in SIMH is to take the data bytes each end wants to send to the
other end and send them over a socket, so I don't get involved with DDCMP
itself. Both ends have to be SIMH for this to work. I don't do anything at
the actual hardware level, although that would be nice. I think you can get
synchronous serial cards for the PC but they are quite expensive.
Regards
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE]
On Behalf Of Paul_Koning at Dell.com
Sent: 03 January 2012 21:18
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] Hecnet and DDCMP
DMC-11 speaks DDCMP V3.1 (give or take some bugs in the "high speed"
version). But that's sync only. Depending on what you want to talk to, a
DMC
(or its relatives DMR-11, DMP-11, or DMV-11) may not help; if the other
end
speaks DDCMP over an async link (UART) then it won't work because the
character framing doesn't match.
That said, I wonder what it means to emulate a DMC-11. You could have it
speak DDCMP over a UART, or something else entirely. If the former it
would
talk to another DDCMP node; if the latter it would not but it would still
work
for tying one emulated DMC-11 to another.
If you want DDCMP, one approach is to get a copy of the spec, and
implement
what it says. That works; it is how I implemented DDCMP support for RSTS
V10
(based on an earlier version based on V9.6). The protocol is quite simple
and
the spec is well enough written that, if you do what it says, the result
WILL
interoperate with hardware such as the DMR-11. The only tricky one is the
DMC-11 because it has some undocumented bugs; the main one I remember
is that the high speed version can't handle back to back packets. I wish
I could
contribute the code I wrote but I can't, for various reasons one of them
is that
it's a RSTS device driver and written in 100% assembly language.
It would not be hard to do a version for other platforms; I once looked at
a
Linux terminal protocol handler (forgot what that is called) that could
hook
into DECnet/Linux. Didn't get far enough on that, though.
paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE]
On Behalf Of Mark Abene
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 6:06 PM
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hecnet and DDCMP
Jarratt, did you make this publicly available on the SIMH list? It would
be great
to have a DMC11 device emulated, since I insist on running RSTS/E v8 (for
historical reasons... it was the last real RSTS before "the pollution").
RSTS/E v8
doesn't have ethernet support, so the only way I could have DECnet is via
a
(previously unemulated)
DMC11 interface. Does yours work well?
-Mark
On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 3:23 AM, Jarratt RMA <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
Working with a friend, I have written a SIMH emulation of the DMC11
device, so you can do this with SIMH. It tunnels the bytes sent
to/from the device over a socket. We have used the SIMH emulation to
connect my friend to HECnet over a (simulated) DMC11.
The bit I am not entirely sure about is to what extent this is using
DDCMP as I don't have a full understanding of DDCMP.
Regards
Rob
On 31 December 2011 18:46, The Presence <tpresence at hotmail.com>
wrote:
Hey guys,
Has anyone worked out a mechanism to connect a node to hecnet using
DDCMP?
Perhaps some tunneling technology over IP, or virtualized serial?
Kevin
Sorry for the delay in replying, I have been away. My friend was going to
announce it, but I can't remember if he did so. I will check with him. Note
that I have only tested it with versions 4 and 5 of VMS, so I cannot say if
it will work with RSTS/E.
Regards
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE]
On Behalf Of Mark Abene
Sent: 01 January 2012 23:06
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hecnet and DDCMP
Jarratt, did you make this publicly available on the SIMH list? It would
be great
to have a DMC11 device emulated, since I insist on running RSTS/E v8 (for
historical reasons... it was the last real RSTS before "the pollution").
RSTS/E v8
doesn't have ethernet support, so the only way I could have DECnet is via
a
(previously unemulated)
DMC11 interface. Does yours work well?
-Mark
On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 3:23 AM, Jarratt RMA <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
Working with a friend, I have written a SIMH emulation of the DMC11
device, so you can do this with SIMH. It tunnels the bytes sent
to/from the device over a socket. We have used the SIMH emulation to
connect my friend to HECnet over a (simulated) DMC11.
The bit I am not entirely sure about is to what extent this is using
DDCMP as I don't have a full understanding of DDCMP.
Regards
Rob
On 31 December 2011 18:46, The Presence <tpresence at hotmail.com>
wrote:
Hey guys,
Has anyone worked out a mechanism to connect a node to hecnet using
DDCMP?
Perhaps some tunneling technology over IP, or virtualized serial?
Kevin
On 03/01/12 22:41, Mark Benson wrote:
Area 6 should now be operational again.
Can someone (preferably Chrissie and someone else) test it out?
it seems to be working fine for me :)
Chrissie
Jarrat mentioned his simulated DMC11 for SIMH allowed him to connect a
friend to HECnet. This is all I'm after for my SIMH RSTS/E v8 setup,
since it currently has no other connectivity options. With a
simulated DMC11 I would be able to connect it to HECnet and give a lot
more people access to it.
-Mark
On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 4:18 PM, <Paul_Koning at dell.com> wrote:
DMC-11 speaks DDCMP V3.1 (give or take some bugs in the "high speed" version). But that's sync only. Depending on what you want to talk to, a DMC (or its relatives DMR-11, DMP-11, or DMV-11) may not help; if the other end speaks DDCMP over an async link (UART) then it won't work because the character framing doesn't match.
That said, I wonder what it means to emulate a DMC-11. You could have it speak DDCMP over a UART, or something else entirely. If the former it would talk to another DDCMP node; if the latter it would not but it would still work for tying one emulated DMC-11 to another.
If you want DDCMP, one approach is to get a copy of the spec, and implement what it says. That works; it is how I implemented DDCMP support for RSTS V10 (based on an earlier version based on V9.6). The protocol is quite simple and the spec is well enough written that, if you do what it says, the result WILL interoperate with hardware such as the DMR-11. The only tricky one is the DMC-11 because it has some undocumented bugs; the main one I remember is that the high speed version can't handle back to back packets. I wish I could contribute the code I wrote but I can't, for various reasons one of them is that it's a RSTS device driver and written in 100% assembly language.
It would not be hard to do a version for other platforms; I once looked at a Linux terminal protocol handler (forgot what that is called) that could hook into DECnet/Linux. Didn't get far enough on that, though.
paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Mark Abene
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 6:06 PM
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hecnet and DDCMP
Jarratt, did you make this publicly available on the SIMH list? It would be great to have a DMC11 device emulated, since I insist on running RSTS/E v8 (for historical reasons... it was the last real RSTS before "the pollution"). RSTS/E v8 doesn't have ethernet support, so the only way I could have DECnet is via a (previously unemulated)
DMC11 interface. Does yours work well?
-Mark
On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 3:23 AM, Jarratt RMA <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
Working with a friend, I have written a SIMH emulation of the DMC11
device, so you can do this with SIMH. It tunnels the bytes sent
to/from the device over a socket. We have used the SIMH emulation to
connect my friend to HECnet over a (simulated) DMC11.
The bit I am not entirely sure about is to what extent this is using
DDCMP as I don't have a full understanding of DDCMP.
Regards
Rob
On 31 December 2011 18:46, The Presence <tpresence at hotmail.com> wrote:
Hey guys,
Has anyone worked out a mechanism to connect a node to hecnet using DDCMP?
Perhaps some tunneling technology over IP, or virtualized serial?
Kevin
On 3 Jan 2012, at 22:59, Steve Davidson wrote:
Check your email on STAR69::MARK
You should have a reply. Suffice to say yeah I think it's working :)
--
Mark Benson
http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK
Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.
Check your email on STAR69::MARK
-Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On
Behalf Of Mark Benson
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 5:42 PM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: [HECnet] Re: Area 6 works
Area 6 should now be operational again.
Can someone (preferably Chrissie and someone else) test it out?
--
Mark Benson
http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK
Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.
