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embedded libraries for PDP-11, was Re: [HECnet] DECUS RSX C compiler

by Paul_Koning＠Dell.com

On Oct 22, 2012, at 3:32 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: On 10/22/2012 02:56 PM, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons wrote: The main barrier to a bare metal binary, or for that matter a not so bare metal one, is the supporting libraries. I did a *really* crude hack job on newlib to give me just enough bare metal support that I could run the GCC test suite under SIMH. But that certainly isn't enough for real bare metal. A pdp11 port of newlib would be a nice project. I tried... But it is too big. I think I got a fatty library because I selected the floating point support... I tried to use sprintf() and it didn't even fit into the PDP address space :(. The printf() family is GIGANTIC. In newlib there are non-FP-enabled versions of those functions; iprintf(), siprintf(), etc. They are much, much smaller than their floating-point counterparts. I suggest you try again with that and see where things land. I'm using them on ARM7 with great results. Granted that's got a much larger address space, but my resultant binaries and stack utilization are still pretty small. The 2.11BSD lib looks leaner, and I am using it in my pet OS project (I pick the pieces I need "on the run", I have not done a complete port... yet). If the above suggestion doesn't get you anywhere, perhaps avrlibc could be hacked into a PDP-11 library. All of the hardware support will have to be ripped out of course, but there are nice tight implementations of generic library functions in there. Nice idea. Or the libc from DECUS C? paul

12 years, 8 months

DECnet on 4.3BSD/TOPS-20 and other questions

by b4＠gewt.net

On Oct 22, 2012, at 4:51 PM, Jason Stevens <neozeed at gmail.com> wrote: On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: Was anyone ever crazy enough to try to implement any DECnet bits for 4.3BSD? I doubt it was very highly demanded, thus the "crazy" bit. I'd consider trying to implement it myself, but I don't know C, BSD internals, or in-depth DECnet info and the craziest I've done is gotten a crippled Perl 5 built on Quasijarus. (while i'm on that topic, anyone ever manage to build autoconf/automake on 4.3BSD?) My eventual end goal is to build irssi on 4.3BSD and ignoring the fact it's pretty much impossible. I've just built the old ircII stuff... and that was involved to say the least. the University of Wisconsin version of 4.3 BSD seemed more usable as its got some SUN magic in there like NFS and various other cleanups ... I haven't looked at irssi as I'd imagine it'd be ... involved. Very involved. I need to get a newer shell to build pkg-config or pkgconf (pkg-config compatible thing, probably easier to use it) so I can get glib built. But I doubt pkg-config will ever build., so the plan stops there unfortunately It seems GNU configure scripts are..picky about shells. They hate pdksh, tcsh, proper ksh, and it seems pkgconf needs a modern bash. I've tried to build several shells as of yet no luck. Seems sys/time.h needs a bit of work for the history functions of bash3 to build. Maybe I can backport that from FreeBSD? Probably too many dependencies for that. I managed to get locale.h and sys/cdefs.h ported back to build with older GCC, i don't trust it but it built :-). But it would probably be a bit easier on a different 4.3BSD flavour.

12 years, 8 months

DECnet on 4.3BSD/TOPS-20 and other questions

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2012-10-22 22:51, Jason Stevens wrote: On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net <mailto:b4 at gewt.net>> wrote: Was anyone ever crazy enough to try to implement any DECnet bits for 4.3BSD? I doubt it was very highly demanded, thus the "crazy" bit. I'd consider trying to implement it myself, but I don't know C, BSD internals, or in-depth DECnet info and the craziest I've done is gotten a crippled Perl 5 built on Quasijarus. (while i'm on that topic, anyone ever manage to build autoconf/automake on 4.3BSD?) My eventual end goal is to build irssi on 4.3BSD and ignoring the fact it's pretty much impossible. I've just built the old ircII stuff... and that was involved to say the least. the University of Wisconsin version of 4.3 BSD seemed more usable as its got some SUN magic in there like NFS and various other cleanups ... 4.3 with NFS and stuff? Are you sure you are not talking about 4.3 Reno? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

12 years, 8 months

DECnet on 4.3BSD/TOPS-20 and other questions

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2012-10-22 22:42, Cory Smelosky wrote: On 22 Oct 2012, at 16:38, "Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote: That is a lot of questions! :-) I have answered only one of them below. -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Cory Smelosky Sent: 22 October 2012 21:06 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: [HECnet] DECnet on 4.3BSD/TOPS-20 and other questions Was anyone ever crazy enough to try to implement any DECnet bits for 4.3BSD? What part of DECnet do you mean? I have some DECnet Router code out now that runs a DECnet router in user mode. But it is only the router part, none of the higher level protocols. If you want to try that there is code for Windows and for Linux, the latter has been tested on a Debian distribution (on the Raspberry Pi). I have not tried on BSD and no longer remember the differences between that and other Unix flavours. I'm referring to how Ultrix implemented bits of the DECnet protocol suite, I doubted anyone had ported any of it back to something as ancient as 4.3BSD as I highly doubt anyone needed it. :-). Considering that Ultrix is more 4.2BSD, it's kindof funny to call 4.3 "retro". :-) But no, as far as I know, DECnet have never been available for any BSD, apart from Ultrix (if you want to call that BSD is another story). Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

12 years, 8 months

DECnet on 4.3BSD/TOPS-20 and other questions

by neozeed＠gmail.com

On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: Was anyone ever crazy enough to try to implement any DECnet bits for 4.3BSD? I doubt it was very highly demanded, thus the "crazy" bit. I'd consider trying to implement it myself, but I don't know C, BSD internals, or in-depth DECnet info and the craziest I've done is gotten a crippled Perl 5 built on Quasijarus. (while i'm on that topic, anyone ever manage to build autoconf/automake on 4.3BSD?) My eventual end goal is to build irssi on 4.3BSD and ignoring the fact it's pretty much impossible. I've just built the old ircII stuff... and that was involved to say the least. the University of Wisconsin version of 4.3 BSD seemed more usable as its got some SUN magic in there like NFS and various other cleanups ... I haven't looked at irssi as I'd imagine it'd be ... involved.

12 years, 8 months

DECnet on 4.3BSD/TOPS-20 and other questions

by b4＠gewt.net

On 22 Oct 2012, at 16:38, "Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote: That is a lot of questions! :-) I have answered only one of them below. -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Cory Smelosky Sent: 22 October 2012 21:06 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: [HECnet] DECnet on 4.3BSD/TOPS-20 and other questions Was anyone ever crazy enough to try to implement any DECnet bits for 4.3BSD? What part of DECnet do you mean? I have some DECnet Router code out now that runs a DECnet router in user mode. But it is only the router part, none of the higher level protocols. If you want to try that there is code for Windows and for Linux, the latter has been tested on a Debian distribution (on the Raspberry Pi). I have not tried on BSD and no longer remember the differences between that and other Unix flavours. I'm referring to how Ultrix implemented bits of the DECnet protocol suite, I doubted anyone had ported any of it back to something as ancient as 4.3BSD as I highly doubt anyone needed it. :-). I doubt it was very highly demanded, thus the "crazy" bit. I'd consider trying to implement it myself, but I don't know C, BSD internals, or in-depth DECnet info and the craziest I've done is gotten a crippled Perl 5 built on Quasijarus. (while i'm on that topic, anyone ever manage to build autoconf/automake on 4.3BSD?) My eventual end goal is to build irssi on 4.3BSD and ignoring the fact it's pretty much impossible. I'm having trouble finding good documentation for latest TOPS-10 and TOPS- 20, anyone know of links off hand? I'd like to get more familiar with them. Also, how would I go about configuring DECnet on TOPS-20? (using pre-built panda, grab me some good manuals and some product tape images and I can roll my own if need be). I suck at google and I get a lot of "top" lists every time I try to find TOPS-10/TOPS-20 stuff. Yeah, I don't know everything about all of DEC's older stuff, but I like learning my way around, I just need good resources.and an explanation of the document naming conventions. Also, it's probably better I mention connecting here so all the crazy solutions get mentioned. Dynamic IP, located in Ohio, US. I have several spare UNIX systems to run a bridge on, and I would prefer to get several systems connected (what area should I use? I'll get back with node names.once I figure out how to change them in RSTS/E and TOPS-20) I'm not very good with using emacs, maybe I should just stick with a more basic editor. Or find a better terminal emulator.I don't have any real DEC terminals or any real DEC hardware.yet. Apologies if any of my questions are a bit annoying or anything. Thanks! -- Cory

12 years, 8 months

DECnet on 4.3BSD/TOPS-20 and other questions

by robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com

That is a lot of questions! :-) I have answered only one of them below. -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Cory Smelosky Sent: 22 October 2012 21:06 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: [HECnet] DECnet on 4.3BSD/TOPS-20 and other questions Was anyone ever crazy enough to try to implement any DECnet bits for 4.3BSD? What part of DECnet do you mean? I have some DECnet Router code out now that runs a DECnet router in user mode. But it is only the router part, none of the higher level protocols. If you want to try that there is code for Windows and for Linux, the latter has been tested on a Debian distribution (on the Raspberry Pi). I have not tried on BSD and no longer remember the differences between that and other Unix flavours. I doubt it was very highly demanded, thus the "crazy" bit. I'd consider trying to implement it myself, but I don't know C, BSD internals, or in-depth DECnet info and the craziest I've done is gotten a crippled Perl 5 built on Quasijarus. (while i'm on that topic, anyone ever manage to build autoconf/automake on 4.3BSD?) My eventual end goal is to build irssi on 4.3BSD and ignoring the fact it's pretty much impossible. I'm having trouble finding good documentation for latest TOPS-10 and TOPS- 20, anyone know of links off hand? I'd like to get more familiar with them. Also, how would I go about configuring DECnet on TOPS-20? (using pre-built panda, grab me some good manuals and some product tape images and I can roll my own if need be). I suck at google and I get a lot of "top" lists every time I try to find TOPS-10/TOPS-20 stuff. Yeah, I don't know everything about all of DEC's older stuff, but I like learning my way around, I just need good resources.and an explanation of the document naming conventions. Also, it's probably better I mention connecting here so all the crazy solutions get mentioned. Dynamic IP, located in Ohio, US. I have several spare UNIX systems to run a bridge on, and I would prefer to get several systems connected (what area should I use? I'll get back with node names.once I figure out how to change them in RSTS/E and TOPS-20) I'm not very good with using emacs, maybe I should just stick with a more basic editor. Or find a better terminal emulator.I don't have any real DEC terminals or any real DEC hardware.yet. Apologies if any of my questions are a bit annoying or anything. Thanks! -- Cory

12 years, 8 months

DECnet on 4.3BSD/TOPS-20 and other questions

by b4＠gewt.net

Was anyone ever crazy enough to try to implement any DECnet bits for 4.3BSD? I doubt it was very highly demanded, thus the "crazy" bit. I'd consider trying to implement it myself, but I don't know C, BSD internals, or in-depth DECnet info and the craziest I've done is gotten a crippled Perl 5 built on Quasijarus. (while i'm on that topic, anyone ever manage to build autoconf/automake on 4.3BSD?) My eventual end goal is to build irssi on 4.3BSD and ignoring the fact it's pretty much impossible. I'm having trouble finding good documentation for latest TOPS-10 and TOPS-20, anyone know of links off hand? I'd like to get more familiar with them. Also, how would I go about configuring DECnet on TOPS-20? (using pre-built panda, grab me some good manuals and some product tape images and I can roll my own if need be). I suck at google and I get a lot of "top" lists every time I try to find TOPS-10/TOPS-20 stuff Yeah, I don't know everything about all of DEC's older stuff, but I like learning my way around, I just need good resources and an explanation of the document naming conventions. Also, it's probably better I mention connecting here so all the crazy solutions get mentioned. Dynamic IP, located in Ohio, US. I have several spare UNIX systems to run a bridge on, and I would prefer to get several systems connected (what area should I use? I'll get back with node names once I figure out how to change them in RSTS/E and TOPS-20) I'm not very good with using emacs, maybe I should just stick with a more basic editor. Or find a better terminal emulator I don't have any real DEC terminals or any real DEC hardware yet. Apologies if any of my questions are a bit annoying or anything. Thanks! -- Cory

12 years, 8 months

embedded libraries for PDP-11, was Re: [HECnet] DECUS RSX C compiler

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 10/22/2012 02:56 PM, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons wrote: The main barrier to a bare metal binary, or for that matter a not so bare metal one, is the supporting libraries. I did a *really* crude hack job on newlib to give me just enough bare metal support that I could run the GCC test suite under SIMH. But that certainly isn't enough for real bare metal. A pdp11 port of newlib would be a nice project. I tried... But it is too big. I think I got a fatty library because I selected the floating point support... I tried to use sprintf() and it didn't even fit into the PDP address space :(. The printf() family is GIGANTIC. In newlib there are non-FP-enabled versions of those functions; iprintf(), siprintf(), etc. They are much, much smaller than their floating-point counterparts. I suggest you try again with that and see where things land. I'm using them on ARM7 with great results. Granted that's got a much larger address space, but my resultant binaries and stack utilization are still pretty small. The 2.11BSD lib looks leaner, and I am using it in my pet OS project (I pick the pieces I need "on the run", I have not done a complete port... yet). If the above suggestion doesn't get you anywhere, perhaps avrlibc could be hacked into a PDP-11 library. All of the hardware support will have to be ripped out of course, but there are nice tight implementations of generic library functions in there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

12 years, 8 months

happy news

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 10/22/2012 10:00 AM, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons wrote: I brought up my VAX 7000 yesterday. 2x HSJ50s CI-connected controllers with six 9GB SCSI drives, 1.5GB of RAM, and two 600-series processors, running VMS 7.3. It's not running full-time, but I'll be running it more as the weather turns colder. What a beautiful machine. Congratulations! Thank you! I love hearing the humming of my real VAXen... and those are a 4000/200 and a micro-3300. So I guess the humming of a 7000 is a thousand times better than that ;) The 7000 doesn't so much "hum" as it does "rumble". That gigantic low-speed blower is most impressive. (Weather has cooled a little bit around here... and I have been powering on my machines a little bit lately. Guess I will need no climatizer in winter). Nope! I need to figure out, watt for watt, if it's more expensive to heat with electricity (via big iron in my case) than natural gas here in western PA USA. I suspect gas is cheaper, but am not certain, and I don't know the transfer function of the boiler in my building. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

12 years, 8 months

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