Wasn't 230V a compromise between the UK and the continent?
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Origineel bericht
Van: Johnny Billquist
Verzonden: maandag 26 januari 2015 17:44
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Beantwoorden: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Number of nodes online a bit low?
On 2015-01-26 16:47, G. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2015 14:49:43 +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote:
This is Europe, remember...
Normal mains are 230V, and 3-phase are 410V phase to phase. All the DEC
equipment around here are designed to run on that stuff.
Aehm, shouldn't it be 230 * SQRT(3) = 398 (rounded up to 400) or the other way
400 / SQRT(3) = 230 (slighty rounded down)? :)
You are probably right. I was trying to remember if it was 400 or 410,
but for some reason my brain decided that it was 410.
Actually, if I'm not wrong, 400 volts should be just a nominal standard voltage,
and some European countries have different real voltages, but they would be
still in range because of the allowed drift (something around plus/minus 6-10%).
I think there is something about that in Wikipedia. Again: if I'm not wrong. :)
No, that sounds right.
Indeed here in Italy nominal household voltage was 220 volts up until few years
ago, and it still is: just now I have a 219 volts reading at the outlet, and I
live downtown in a quite big northern city (i.e. not countryside).
Sweden moved "officially" from 220V to 230V many years ago. Probably
more than 20 years or so.
In everyday speaking even electricians still refer to 3-phase 400 volt power as
"three eighty" (lit. tre ottanta) i.e. the old 380 volt nominal voltage. :)
I sortof remember that too... :-)
(Well, the Swedish variant thereof...)
P.S. I think that the UK may still be on 240/415 actual voltage even if they
adhere to the European standards about the unified 230/400 delivery.
Yeah. As far as I can remember, they are officially with the 230V crowd,
but the actual power at the outlet can vary. :-)
Johnny
The same here, we still say " twee-twintig" or "two-twenty" even though we've been at 230V for quite some time.
Your calculation is correct, the old ratio was 220/380, which is now 230/400. The latter voltage and angle only between appropriate phases. I once put a VAX 8650 on an incorrectly wired outlet. Low voltage and fans turning the other way around...
Verzonden vanaf mijn BlackBerry 10-smartphone.
Origineel bericht
Van: G.
Verzonden: maandag 26 januari 2015 16:48
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Beantwoorden: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Number of nodes online a bit low?
On Mon, 26 Jan 2015 14:49:43 +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote:
This is Europe, remember...
Normal mains are 230V, and 3-phase are 410V phase to phase. All the DEC
equipment around here are designed to run on that stuff.
Aehm, shouldn't it be 230 * SQRT(3) = 398 (rounded up to 400) or the other way
400 / SQRT(3) = 230 (slighty rounded down)? :)
Actually, if I'm not wrong, 400 volts should be just a nominal standard voltage,
and some European countries have different real voltages, but they would be
still in range because of the allowed drift (something around plus/minus 6-10%).
I think there is something about that in Wikipedia. Again: if I'm not wrong. :)
Indeed here in Italy nominal household voltage was 220 volts up until few years
ago, and it still is: just now I have a 219 volts reading at the outlet, and I
live downtown in a quite big northern city (i.e. not countryside).
In everyday speaking even electricians still refer to 3-phase 400 volt power as
"three eighty" (lit. tre ottanta) i.e. the old 380 volt nominal voltage. :)
HTH,
G.
P.S. I think that the UK may still be on 240/415 actual voltage even if they
adhere to the European standards about the unified 230/400 delivery.
On Mon, 26 Jan 2015 12:27:49 -0500, John Wilson wrote:
I am much more nervous about the (to my view) really crappy and scary
plugs you use in the US. They actually have a fair chance of actually
exposing me to contact...
I can't argue with that. They'd *never* be approved if they were invented
today, but we're used to being careful and people hate change.
Same danger here, until they made compulsory (25-30 years ago) to sell only
plugs with the first part of the prongs insulated, so that when there is
electricity flowing, the accidentally exposed part is not conductive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europlug#mediaviewer/File:Euro-Flachstecker_2.…
The nice thing is that it's backward compatible with ancient receptacles :)
G.
On Mon, 26 Jan 2015 18:45:28 +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote:
sometimes happens that you blow a local fuse at home, but it's uncommon
[...]
The main fuses in my house are 32A for each phase. I could upgrade, but
Real fuses? Here they are almost fully disappeared. Maybe there is something in
factories and such, but nothing more in private homes.
Automatic circuit breakers, both magnetic-thermal and differential, are the norm
(I think there is a law too that requires their use), so when you exceed your
allowed power consumption it's just a matter of going downstairs and switch back
on your home circuit (if you live in a building with many apartments, switches
must be reachable from outside your home, so they are almost always located near
the main entrance, next to mail boxes).
The "bad" new thing is that ancient switches where somewhat forgiving of short
spikes in consumption, but now that there are digital meters connected to the
switches, there is a strict 120 second grace period, and after that the meter
commands the circuit breaker to trip... And here you go in the dark. :P
There is also a "nice" LCD display that tells you that you were left in the dark
because you were using more power than what your contract allowed. :P
G.
On 26 Jan 2015, at 19:49, Ian McLaughlin <ian at platinum.net> wrote:
This is why toasters and kettles suck in North America. It takes forever to boil your water for a cup of tea and toast some bread. We only get 15 amp peak (de-rated to 12 amp continuous) at 120v. That s only 1440 watts.
I get 20A for the whole apartment for 20 hours per day, 10A from a filthy diesel generator for the other 4.
The state supply costs me about 15 bucks a month (flat fee, they don't meter here) and the generator costs me about 70..
Sampsa
This is why toasters and kettles suck in North America. It takes forever to boil your water for a cup of tea and toast some bread. We only get 15 amp peak (de-rated to 12 amp continuous) at 120v. That s only 1440 watts.
Ian
On Jan 26, 2015, at 9:38 AM, G. <gerry77 at mail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2015 11:40:23 -0500, John Wilson wrote:
I just have trouble getting used to the fact that although you *already*
run most things at what Americans would consider double voltage, you *still*
double the voltage for the big toys (things which we grudgingly whip out
the 230 VAC for). But then again, once it's lethal, I suppose it doesn't
matter how lethal. And copper costs more than insulation so being able
to use wimpier wire for the same wattage is good design. Less loss too.
I don't know in other parts of Europe, but here in Italy the usual current
rating you get at home with a non-business contract is 3000 watt (i.e. around
13,5 ampere at 220 volt) and wires for appliances up to 1500 watt must have a
minimal section of 0,75 square millimeters.
Some years ago, around the time when the national electricity company was being
privatised, they started a nice commercial campaign in which the main caption
was something like "from now on your hair-dryer can make peace with your washing
machine" and was about the (almost) free upgrade from 3000 to 4500 watt rating
for homes: I don't know elsewhere, but here is quite common to have black-outs
at home if you forget to switch off things like the water heater when using the
iron and such. It happens even when you have guests (so lots of lights on) and
switch on something like the oven to heat some roast. :)
The next step is going to 6000 watt, then 10000, but then an electrician must
come home and check that your wiring is up to actual safety standards.
Bye, :)
G.
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On 2015-01-26 18:38, G. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2015 11:40:23 -0500, John Wilson wrote:
I just have trouble getting used to the fact that although you *already*
run most things at what Americans would consider double voltage, you *still*
double the voltage for the big toys (things which we grudgingly whip out
the 230 VAC for). But then again, once it's lethal, I suppose it doesn't
matter how lethal. And copper costs more than insulation so being able
to use wimpier wire for the same wattage is good design. Less loss too.
I don't know in other parts of Europe, but here in Italy the usual current
rating you get at home with a non-business contract is 3000 watt (i.e. around
13,5 ampere at 220 volt) and wires for appliances up to 1500 watt must have a
minimal section of 0,75 square millimeters.
Some years ago, around the time when the national electricity company was being
privatised, they started a nice commercial campaign in which the main caption
was something like "from now on your hair-dryer can make peace with your washing
machine" and was about the (almost) free upgrade from 3000 to 4500 watt rating
for homes: I don't know elsewhere, but here is quite common to have black-outs
at home if you forget to switch off things like the water heater when using the
iron and such. It happens even when you have guests (so lots of lights on) and
switch on something like the oven to heat some roast. :)
The next step is going to 6000 watt, then 10000, but then an electrician must
come home and check that your wiring is up to actual safety standards.
In Sweden, blackouts at a local level is pretty much unheard of, and blackouts on a regional level is national news. But of course it sometimes happens that you blow a local fuse at home, but it's uncommon enough that you tend to forget about them between the occurrences. It seems they do get old eventually, and blow. That's the time when you need to replace them.
The main fuses in my house are 32A for each phase. I could upgrade, but I'd have to pay, since there is a fee based on the size of the main fuses. (But the wiring is good for more.)
I then have (I think) four separate 16A 3 phase outlets in the cellar of my house. Of course, if I were to actually utilize all of them fully, I'd blow the main fuse. But I haven't been there yet. :-)
Johnny
On Mon, 26 Jan 2015 11:40:23 -0500, John Wilson wrote:
I just have trouble getting used to the fact that although you *already*
run most things at what Americans would consider double voltage, you *still*
double the voltage for the big toys (things which we grudgingly whip out
the 230 VAC for). But then again, once it's lethal, I suppose it doesn't
matter how lethal. And copper costs more than insulation so being able
to use wimpier wire for the same wattage is good design. Less loss too.
I don't know in other parts of Europe, but here in Italy the usual current
rating you get at home with a non-business contract is 3000 watt (i.e. around
13,5 ampere at 220 volt) and wires for appliances up to 1500 watt must have a
minimal section of 0,75 square millimeters.
Some years ago, around the time when the national electricity company was being
privatised, they started a nice commercial campaign in which the main caption
was something like "from now on your hair-dryer can make peace with your washing
machine" and was about the (almost) free upgrade from 3000 to 4500 watt rating
for homes: I don't know elsewhere, but here is quite common to have black-outs
at home if you forget to switch off things like the water heater when using the
iron and such. It happens even when you have guests (so lots of lights on) and
switch on something like the oven to heat some roast. :)
The next step is going to 6000 watt, then 10000, but then an electrician must
come home and check that your wiring is up to actual safety standards.
Bye, :)
G.
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se>
I am much more nervous about the (to my view) really crappy and scary
plugs you use in the US. They actually have a fair chance of actually
exposing me to contact...
I can't argue with that. They'd *never* be approved if they were invented
today, but we're used to being careful and people hate change.
I always figure the same thing about train crossings: no way that would
be legal if we weren't already used to it. It's going 60 MPH / 100 kph, has
no steering, just one headlight, the brakes take minutes to work, and the
engineer can't see cross-traffic until he's right on top of it, but don't
worry; there's a flashing red light. And maybe a bell. And if you're
in town, a flimsy wooden slat. Safe!
I had a nutty uncle in the UK who wired his house for 24 VDC (and mounted
truck taillight bulbs in all the lamps), and used US-style plugs for that.
*That's* safe enough.
John Wilson
D Bit
On 2015-01-26 17:40, John Wilson wrote:
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se>
This is Europe, remember...
Normal mains are 230V, and 3-phase are 410V phase to phase. All the DEC
equipment around here are designed to run on that stuff.
Sure ... I remember reading the back plate on a dryer at a laundromat once
(in I forget which country) and suddenly not wanting to touch it any more.
I just have trouble getting used to the fact that although you *already*
run most things at what Americans would consider double voltage, you *still*
double the voltage for the big toys (things which we grudgingly whip out
the 230 VAC for). But then again, once it's lethal, I suppose it doesn't
matter how lethal. And copper costs more than insulation so being able
to use wimpier wire for the same wattage is good design. Less loss too.
Plus, this is stuff you pretty much never unplug/replug, so your fingers
are almost never near the live prongs. Still ... around here, it's hard
to find wire that's insulated for more than 300V.
Yeah... That "lethal" aspect have never been my issue. 110V or 230V. Who cares? If it comes to the wrong place, either will kill me.
And just through two fingers on the same hand, they both just annoy the hell out of me, and I swear loudly for a few minutes...
I am much more nervous about the (to my view) really crappy and scary plugs you use in the US. They actually have a fair chance of actually exposing me to contact...
You really cannot touch the prongs when they have power on plugs around here...
Johnny
