On 04/04/2013 05:22 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2013-04-04 22:41, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On 04/04/2013 04:35 PM, Gregg Levine wrote:
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 4:31 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
Afternoon all,
I managed to get this to boot in SIMH with minimal effort. (Started
from
VMS 3.x and then installed 1.5 with a bunch of devices disabled)
sim> b rp2
Loading boot code from vmb.exe
VAX/VMS Version 1.50 12-APR-1979 09:30
PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 04-APR-2013 14:39
OPCOM, 4-APR-2013 14:39:06.22, LOGFILE INITIALIZED,
OPERATOR=_OPA0:
$ !
$ ! VAX/VMS system startup - Release 1
$ !
$ SHOW TIME
4-APR-2013 14:39:06
$ SET NOVERIFY
%MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, CONSOLE mounted on _DXA1:
Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0
SYSTEM job terminated at 4-APR-2013 14:39:06.49
Accounting information:
Buffered I/O count: 139 Peak working set size: 98
Direct I/O count: 38 Peak virtual size: 110
Page faults: 287 Mounted volumes: 1
Elapsed CPU time: 0 00:00:00.12 Elapsed time: 0
00:00:00.26
Username: SYSTEM
Password:
Welcome to VAX/VMS Version 1.50
$ sh network
NETWORK UNAVAILABLE
What kind of networking could I get working on this? Pre-Phase-IV
using a
device SIMH doesn't have emulation support for? ;)
I can upload this disk image if anyone wants it.
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
Hello!
I am impressed. What device is this that SIMH does not emulate?
It might emulate all I'd need. I'm not sure what networking on VMS this
old would have been like. I just need to find documentation of VAX/VMS
1.50. ;)
Well... This is pre-ethernet and pre-DECnet phase IV... Serial ports
then? Or DMC, or something similar...?
Hmm. I need to find the DECnet kit so I can figure out what devices it supports.
Johnny
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
On Apr 4, 2013, at 5:18 PM, <hvlems at zonnet.nl>
wrote:
Apparently not. The reason I came up with the device is that I used a PDP 11/40 with a DU11 to connect to a Burroughs B7700 using an RJE like protocol. It was called SYSTEM/SATCOM IIRC. The PDP ran RT-11 V4.
Other than that, networks were built using 1200 baud modems on serial lines. No DMF32 nor DZ11 in '79. How did one connect all those VT52's and LA36's, via a DL11?
I thought DZ11s were around back then. But if not, the DH11 sure was, 16 lines, DMA output. But that's for terminals up to 9600 baud. For networking, you'd use a DMC-11 unless your OS supported the cheaper devices and money was that tight -- that one goes back to about 1976 and delivers up to 1 Mb/s depending on model (up to 56 kB/s long haul, given suitable modems).
Lots of terminals with single line interfaces would be really ugly. But I do remember our college main timesharing system, in 1973, a PDP-11/20 with 28 kW of memory, RSTS V4A, and 16 terminals on 16 separate KL11 or DL11 interfaces. Oh yes, and a mean time between crashes of about 1 day.
paul
On 04/04/2013 05:15 PM, Gregg Levine wrote:
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 5:08 PM, <Paul_Koning at dell.com> wrote:
On Apr 4, 2013, at 4:59 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On 04/04/2013 04:45 PM, hvlems wrote:
No ethernet in '79, no phase IV. So a DU11?
Hmmmm. Does SIMH emulate that?
It doesn't look like it does. And I don't know that VMS ever supported that device, anyway. RSX did, but various other systems tended to stay away from it because of the high software overhead. I do know that VMS supports DMC-11 (or DMR-11, essentially the same at the driver level), and there is support for that in the in-development release of SIMH.
paul
Hello!
What a predicament. Cory you said you'd upload it someplace to make it
available for us to do stuff with. Okay where? How big is it, and what
is the magic to convince (or confuse) SIMH for the VAX to bring it up?
http://gewt.net/vms015.dsk It is around 14M, and I am uploading it now. My upload is slow, so be patient. ;) Try grabbing it in about an hour or so. SYSTEM password is manager.
Disable all SIMH devices except TS and RP. Try using git as well.
Output of SHOW CONFIG:
sim> show config
VAX 11/780 simulator configuration
CPU idle=VMS, idle enabled, model=VAX 11/780
8192KB, HALT to SIMH
TLB 2 units
TLB0 8192W
TLB1 8192W
SBI
MCTL0 nexus=1
MCTL1 nexus=2
UBA nexus=3, autoconfiguration enabled
MBA0 nexus=8
MBA1 disabled
TODR
8B
TMR
TTI
8b
TTO
8b
RXC
256KB, not attached, write enabled
DZ address=2013E048-2013E067*, vector=C8-E4*, lines=32
not attached, 8b
VH disabled
CR disabled
LPT address=2013FF4C-2013FF4F, vector=80
not attached
RP 8 units
RP0 87MW, attached to vms.dsk, write enabled
RP06
RP1 87MW, attached to ../../software/STABACKITs/STABA030.rp6, read only, write enabled
RP06
RP2 87MW, attached to vms015.dsk, write enabled
RP06
RP3 87MW, not attached, write enabled
autosize
RP4 87MW, not attached, write enabled
autosize
RP5 87MW, not attached, write enabled
autosize
RP6 87MW, not attached, write enabled
autosize
RP7 87MW, not attached, write enabled
autosize
RL disabled
HK disabled
RQ disabled
RQB disabled
RQC disabled
RQD disabled
RY disabled
TU disabled
TS address=2013F550-2013F553, vector=94
attached to ../../software/VMS015/BB-D782B-BE_VMS1.5_JUN79.tap, read only, write enabled, SIMH format
unlimited capacity
TQ disabled
XU disabled
XUB disabled
DMC0 peer=unspecified, speed=0 (unrestricted), linemode=SECONDARY
connectpoll=30, address=2013E038-2013E03F*, vector=C0-C4*
not attached
DMC1 disabled
DMC2 disabled
DMC3 disabled
It looks like i'll need to poke around to find the install media for DECnet...Bitsavers lacks the DECnet manuals as well. (AA-D902A-TE, AA-D902A-T1, AA-D901A-TE, AA-D901A-T1)
Dave now you did it, the yetis are rioting.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
On 2013-04-04 22:57, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
On Apr 4, 2013, at 4:41 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On 04/04/2013 04:35 PM, Gregg Levine wrote:
...
$ sh network
NETWORK UNAVAILABLE
What kind of networking could I get working on this? Pre-Phase-IV using a
device SIMH doesn't have emulation support for? ;)
I can upload this disk image if anyone wants it.
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
Hello!
I am impressed. What device is this that SIMH does not emulate?
It might emulate all I'd need. I'm not sure what networking on VMS this old would have been like. I just need to find documentation of VAX/VMS 1.50. ;)
Given the release date shown in the login banner (1979) it's probably Phase III. Wikipedia says Phase III is from 1980, so it's possible that it's Phase II instead.
If Phase III, you could use the DMC-11 emulation in the current SIMH (discussed here recently), connected to something else that knows Phase III. If Phase II, it gets trickier, because you'd need a Phase III node for it to connect to, and it would presumably only know to talk to that neighbor node. (If it actually is Phase II, I'd be interested in a copy -- I've been working on Phase II compatibility for my DECnet/Python implementation.) At least I assume that the "routing" ("intercept") mechanism that's marginally documented in the Phase II specs isn't in DECnet/VMS if that's Phase II; some very vague memory says that this machinery only existed to allow 36 bit systems with Phase II in the OS to talk to an external node via their Phase II PDP-11 front end processors. I'd be interested if anyone can tell us more about that; I never paid any attention when I was actually working on DECnet back then.
There are people around who can expand on the weirdness of DECnet on 36-bit machines... I'm not good enough, but if I remember right, they talked phase II for a long time, with a phase III conversion/bridge sitting in the PDP-11 attached to the 36-bit machine.
I know I've read quite some documentation about it as well, but exactly where I can't remember... I don't even remember offhand what the additional 11/34 which was attached to the 36-bit system was called. But others here can fill in details. :-)
Johnny
On 2013-04-04 22:41, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On 04/04/2013 04:35 PM, Gregg Levine wrote:
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 4:31 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
Afternoon all,
I managed to get this to boot in SIMH with minimal effort. (Started
from
VMS 3.x and then installed 1.5 with a bunch of devices disabled)
sim> b rp2
Loading boot code from vmb.exe
VAX/VMS Version 1.50 12-APR-1979 09:30
PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 04-APR-2013 14:39
OPCOM, 4-APR-2013 14:39:06.22, LOGFILE INITIALIZED, OPERATOR=_OPA0:
$ !
$ ! VAX/VMS system startup - Release 1
$ !
$ SHOW TIME
4-APR-2013 14:39:06
$ SET NOVERIFY
%MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, CONSOLE mounted on _DXA1:
Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0
SYSTEM job terminated at 4-APR-2013 14:39:06.49
Accounting information:
Buffered I/O count: 139 Peak working set size: 98
Direct I/O count: 38 Peak virtual size: 110
Page faults: 287 Mounted volumes: 1
Elapsed CPU time: 0 00:00:00.12 Elapsed time: 0 00:00:00.26
Username: SYSTEM
Password:
Welcome to VAX/VMS Version 1.50
$ sh network
NETWORK UNAVAILABLE
What kind of networking could I get working on this? Pre-Phase-IV
using a
device SIMH doesn't have emulation support for? ;)
I can upload this disk image if anyone wants it.
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
Hello!
I am impressed. What device is this that SIMH does not emulate?
It might emulate all I'd need. I'm not sure what networking on VMS this
old would have been like. I just need to find documentation of VAX/VMS
1.50. ;)
Well... This is pre-ethernet and pre-DECnet phase IV... Serial ports then? Or DMC, or something similar...?
Johnny
Apparently not. The reason I came up with the device is that I used a PDP 11/40 with a DU11 to connect to a Burroughs B7700 using an RJE like protocol. It was called SYSTEM/SATCOM IIRC. The PDP ran RT-11 V4.
Other than that, networks were built using 1200 baud modems on serial lines. No DMF32 nor DZ11 in '79. How did one connect all those VT52's and LA36's, via a DL11?
-----Original Message-----
From: "Cory Smelosky" <b4 at gewt.net>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 20:59:42
To: <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SECc: hvlems<hvlems at zonnet.nl>
Subject: Re: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 1.50
On 04/04/2013 04:45 PM, hvlems wrote:
No ethernet in '79, no phase IV. So a DU11?
Hmmmm. Does SIMH emulate that?
------Origineel bericht------
Van: Cory Smelosky
Afzender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Aan: hecnet at update.uu.se
Beantwoorden: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 1.50
Verzonden: 4 april 2013 22:31
Afternoon all,
I managed to get this to boot in SIMH with minimal effort. (Started
from VMS 3.x and then installed 1.5 with a bunch of devices disabled)
sim> b rp2
Loading boot code from vmb.exe
VAX/VMS Version 1.50 12-APR-1979 09:30
PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 04-APR-2013 14:39
OPCOM, 4-APR-2013 14:39:06.22, LOGFILE INITIALIZED, OPERATOR=_OPA0:
$ !
$ ! VAX/VMS system startup - Release 1
$ !
$ SHOW TIME
4-APR-2013 14:39:06
$ SET NOVERIFY
%MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, CONSOLE mounted on _DXA1:
Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0
SYSTEM job terminated at 4-APR-2013 14:39:06.49
Accounting information:
Buffered I/O count: 139 Peak working set size: 98
Direct I/O count: 38 Peak virtual size: 110
Page faults: 287 Mounted volumes: 1
Elapsed CPU time: 0 00:00:00.12 Elapsed time: 0 00:00:00.26
Username: SYSTEM
Password:
Welcome to VAX/VMS Version 1.50
$ sh network
NETWORK UNAVAILABLE
What kind of networking could I get working on this? Pre-Phase-IV using
a device SIMH doesn't have emulation support for? ;)
I can upload this disk image if anyone wants it.
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 5:08 PM, <Paul_Koning at dell.com> wrote:
On Apr 4, 2013, at 4:59 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On 04/04/2013 04:45 PM, hvlems wrote:
No ethernet in '79, no phase IV. So a DU11?
Hmmmm. Does SIMH emulate that?
It doesn't look like it does. And I don't know that VMS ever supported that device, anyway. RSX did, but various other systems tended to stay away from it because of the high software overhead. I do know that VMS supports DMC-11 (or DMR-11, essentially the same at the driver level), and there is support for that in the in-development release of SIMH.
paul
Hello!
What a predicament. Cory you said you'd upload it someplace to make it
available for us to do stuff with. Okay where? How big is it, and what
is the magic to convince (or confuse) SIMH for the VAX to bring it up?
Dave now you did it, the yetis are rioting.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Apr 4, 2013, at 4:59 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On 04/04/2013 04:45 PM, hvlems wrote:
No ethernet in '79, no phase IV. So a DU11?
Hmmmm. Does SIMH emulate that?
It doesn't look like it does. And I don't know that VMS ever supported that device, anyway. RSX did, but various other systems tended to stay away from it because of the high software overhead. I do know that VMS supports DMC-11 (or DMR-11, essentially the same at the driver level), and there is support for that in the in-development release of SIMH.
paul
On 04/04/2013 04:45 PM, hvlems wrote:
No ethernet in '79, no phase IV. So a DU11?
Hmmmm. Does SIMH emulate that?
------Origineel bericht------
Van: Cory Smelosky
Afzender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Aan: hecnet at update.uu.se
Beantwoorden: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 1.50
Verzonden: 4 april 2013 22:31
Afternoon all,
I managed to get this to boot in SIMH with minimal effort. (Started
from VMS 3.x and then installed 1.5 with a bunch of devices disabled)
sim> b rp2
Loading boot code from vmb.exe
VAX/VMS Version 1.50 12-APR-1979 09:30
PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 04-APR-2013 14:39
OPCOM, 4-APR-2013 14:39:06.22, LOGFILE INITIALIZED, OPERATOR=_OPA0:
$ !
$ ! VAX/VMS system startup - Release 1
$ !
$ SHOW TIME
4-APR-2013 14:39:06
$ SET NOVERIFY
%MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, CONSOLE mounted on _DXA1:
Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0
SYSTEM job terminated at 4-APR-2013 14:39:06.49
Accounting information:
Buffered I/O count: 139 Peak working set size: 98
Direct I/O count: 38 Peak virtual size: 110
Page faults: 287 Mounted volumes: 1
Elapsed CPU time: 0 00:00:00.12 Elapsed time: 0 00:00:00.26
Username: SYSTEM
Password:
Welcome to VAX/VMS Version 1.50
$ sh network
NETWORK UNAVAILABLE
What kind of networking could I get working on this? Pre-Phase-IV using
a device SIMH doesn't have emulation support for? ;)
I can upload this disk image if anyone wants it.
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
On Apr 4, 2013, at 4:41 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On 04/04/2013 04:35 PM, Gregg Levine wrote:
...
$ sh network
NETWORK UNAVAILABLE
What kind of networking could I get working on this? Pre-Phase-IV using a
device SIMH doesn't have emulation support for? ;)
I can upload this disk image if anyone wants it.
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
Hello!
I am impressed. What device is this that SIMH does not emulate?
It might emulate all I'd need. I'm not sure what networking on VMS this old would have been like. I just need to find documentation of VAX/VMS 1.50. ;)
Given the release date shown in the login banner (1979) it's probably Phase III. Wikipedia says Phase III is from 1980, so it's possible that it's Phase II instead.
If Phase III, you could use the DMC-11 emulation in the current SIMH (discussed here recently), connected to something else that knows Phase III. If Phase II, it gets trickier, because you'd need a Phase III node for it to connect to, and it would presumably only know to talk to that neighbor node. (If it actually is Phase II, I'd be interested in a copy -- I've been working on Phase II compatibility for my DECnet/Python implementation.) At least I assume that the "routing" ("intercept") mechanism that's marginally documented in the Phase II specs isn't in DECnet/VMS if that's Phase II; some very vague memory says that this machinery only existed to allow 36 bit systems with Phase II in the OS to talk to an external node via their Phase II PDP-11 front end processors. I'd be interested if anyone can tell us more about that; I never paid any attention when I was actually working on DECnet back then.
paul
