On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
If there's a PDP-11 PL/I compiler, join me in benchmarking using some PL/I examples I found on kednos.com ;)
Don't think I've ever seen one. I have F4, F77, Pascal, BASIC+2, COBOL, BCPL, Simula-2, Xlisp, TECO, Forth... Possibly some other things that I can't remember now...
Right -- Cutler did the original PL/1 compiler for the VAX only. He bought the front end from Frieberhouse (aka LPI aka Liant - aka Ryan-Marfarland). Since it was written in PL/1, Dave had to do the development at MIT on Multics until it was good enough to could self host on the VMS. At the time, there was not market need for an PL/1 for the 11 family and if my memory serves me, I think the development for the 10's and 20s was going away. PL/1 was IBM's big systems language and they were trying to move their code base from FORTRAN and Cobol to it,
As for the PDP-11 C compiler generating poor code, that's because it did not really have too as the feeling was that the Ritchie compiler for UNIX was not that good either. Any C compiler of the time was viewed as just needed to work properly, self host and generate correct code. For the users of DEC OS, folks tended to write in FORTRAN or Macro on the 11s (or BLISS if you were DEC - but you need a 10 to cross compile).
Again, if memory serves me at all here, Cutler was so underwelhmed by the C compilers for the 11 (UNIX and non-UNIX versions) he took a stand of how could it be that hard and to prove the compiler guys wrong he said he could write one and one that generated optimal code - the results became VAX-11/C.
One of the things he did at the time (which pissed me off as a C user/hacker) was he ignores Dennis's "register" declaration - stating he could do a better job of register allocation that I could [which when we were writing targeted code was not true - the best he ever did was as good as we did and often did not go as well].
But he would later be proved more clairvoyant for different set of reasons. When we started to move code from VAXEN and PDP11s to 68K et al, then it actually did work better, because the code optimization needed to vary depending on the target and architecture constraints.
Clem
below
On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 8:41 PM, <sampsa at mac.com> wrote:
I found WHETSTONE.C
Hack, cough -- a notoriously bad benchmark and has been gamed more times that I want to try to count (including by a number of my employers).
specint (and >>maybe<< specfp) from the old days is probably what you want -- google in your friend.
FYI: It now costs $800 and it is part of what is called CPU2006 but for your purposes I suspect specint will go a long way. I'm not sure specfp would be as much use, unless you really are trying to replace and old machine / old binary and it used the native FP hardware.
---- from SPEC's current home page: http://www.spec.org/spec/
SPEC's Background
The System Performance Evaluation Cooperative, now named the Standard Performance Evaluation Corporation (SPEC), was founded in 1988 by a small number of workstation vendors who realized that the marketplace was in desperate need of realistic, standardized performance tests. The key realization was that an ounce of honest data was worth more than a pound of marketing hype.
SPEC has grown to become one of the more successful performance standardization bodies with more than 60 member companies. SPEC publishes several hundred different performance results each quarter spanning a variety of system performance disciplines.
sampsa at mac.com wrote:
Has anybody tried to set this up? I think it'd be nifty if we had say Hercules with MVS connected to HECnet..
If I ever get off my ass and get on HECnet, I might even be able to hook a real mainframe (at least part of the time) to the network.
Peace... Sridhar
i have them on another slow link in Finland.
a11pi::[.alpha084]
--Saku
On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 3:49 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2013-01-14 23:37, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
TITAAN (44.35) was shutdown just now. If there still is interest for VMS kits or layered products : just tell me and I"l boot it again.
Hans
Hans, don't you have any other machine where you can host the files?
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On 01/14/2013 08:09 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Unless you want to run OS/390. ;)
Good luck FINDING OS/390.
Unless, of course, you know the right people. *ahem*.
And those people might have several releases of VM, and maybe z/OS
(what OS/390 became) as well.
But I have no idea of who might have such stuff, of course.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 01/14/2013 08:14 PM, Ian McLaughlin wrote:
All this talk about IBM mainframe technology and gatewaying it to
Hecnet - is there an equivalent hobby group in the IBM community?
There are several, in fact, but not of the "WAN/VPN" sort, at least
not yet. The night is young!
I know absolutely nothing about SNA or anything IBM, but I'd love to
learn :)
The learning curve is pretty much VERTICAL, but I'm sure you can
handle it.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 01/14/2013 08:14 PM, sampsa at mac.com wrote:
Hercules can run OS/390 and z/OS. One of those supports SNA over IP. I'm not sure which. I think Dave might know a bit about this.
Not sure the VMS SNA stuff support SNA over IP though, could we get a Cisco router to convert it to regular SNA?
I'd be up for hacking on this a bit.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 01/14/2013 08:12 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Unless you want to run OS/390. ;)
What on real hardware? Or some emulator that does SNA..?
Hercules can run OS/390 and z/OS. One of those supports SNA over IP.
I'm not sure which. I think Dave might know a bit about this.
I've not done direct SNA over IP.
Note that Hercules can make virtual 3270s appear as tn3270-protocol
ports over IP. This works quite well. The MVS (or VM, etc) system
thinks they're connected via an establishment controller.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 01/14/2013 08:11 PM, sampsa at mac.com wrote:
Unless you want to run OS/390. ;)
What on real hardware? Or some emulator that does SNA..?
Real hardware is KING, man! If someone can find me a FICON DASD
array, I'll bring up a beefy z/Series machine.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 2013-01-15 03:17, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On 14 Jan 2013, at 21:15, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2013-01-15 02:41, sampsa at mac.com wrote:
Somebody was asking for a better benchmark than VUPS earlier, I found WHETSTONE.C on GORVAX which calculates MIPS. Not sure how much better it is than VUPS.COM, but here are some results:
GORVAX (SIMH VAX, on a Core i5)
Loops: 1000, Iterations: 1, Duration: 5 sec.
C Converted Double Precision Whetstones: 20.0 MIPS
CHIMPY (DS10)
Loops: 10000, Iterations: 1, Duration: 2 sec.
C Converted Double Precision Whetstones: 500.0 MIPS
RHESUS (rx2600)
Loops: 100000, Iterations: 1, Duration: 4 sec.
C Converted Double Precision Whetstones: 2500.0 MIPS
I've attached the C source to this message, and will put binaries for all three platforms as well as the source in RHESUS::[.MEDIALIB.WHETSTONE]
Just as a comparision, using the DEC PDP-11 C compiler:
JOCKE (11/94 using simh on a i7 at 3.4 GHz):
Loops: 1000, Iterations: 1, Duration: 16 sec.
C Converted Double Precision Whetstones: 6.3 MIPS
MIM (11/74 using e11 on a PIII at 548 MHz):
Loops: 1000, Iterations: 1, Duration: 55 sec.
C Converted Double Precision Whetstones: 1.8 MIPS
PONDUS (11/93 using a J11 at 18 MHz or so):
Loops: 1000, Iterations: 1, Duration: 639 sec.
C Converted Double Precision Whetstones: 156.5 KIPS
Now, the DEC PDP-11 C compiler produces rather poor code, but still some fun numbers to look at. (And E11 looks pretty good.)
If there's a PDP-11 PL/I compiler, join me in benchmarking using some PL/I examples I found on kednos.com ;)
Don't think I've ever seen one. I have F4, F77, Pascal, BASIC+2, COBOL, BCPL, Simula-2, Xlisp, TECO, Forth... Possibly some other things that I can't remember now...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
