Yes, indeed. It wasn't even meant to work. Here's an excerpt from the
DECnet (Phase IV) manual:
DECnet supports a variety of types of nodes developed during different
phases
of DNA implementation. Phase II, III, and IV nodes and DECnet/OSI nodes
can all exist on a network. There are con guration restrictions in such
a mixed
network; one major restriction is that only nodes running adjacent
phases can
communicate directly, ...
Exactly. The other restriction is that both endpoints of an application connection have to understand the same protocol. Since there haven't been a whole lot of application layer changes between Phase III and IV, that shouldn't be a big issue. The most obvious one is "set host" which switched from the OS-specific versions to Cterm (in some operating systems). But the old ones are often still supported. Things like file transfer are likely to be fine.
Phase II is a different story, but implementations that old are probably very hard to find.
Later there is mentioned that a Phase III node can exist in an Phase IV
area as an end node. It can communicate with a Phase V node through
the Phase IV area.
paul
Yes, indeed. It wasn't even meant to work. Here's an excerpt from the DECnet (Phase IV) manual:
DECnet supports a variety of types of nodes developed during different phases
of DNA implementation. Phase II, III, and IV nodes and DECnet/OSI nodes
can all exist on a network. There are con guration restrictions in such a mixed
network; one major restriction is that only nodes running adjacent phases can
communicate directly, as shown in the following list:
Phase II Phase II
Phase II Phase III
Phase III Phase III
Phase III Phase IV
Phase IV Phase IV
Phase IV DECnet/OSI
DECnet/OSI DECnet/OSI
Later there is mentioned that a Phase III node can exist in an Phase IV area as an end node. It can communicate with a Phase V node through the Phase IV area.
I don't have personal experience with DECnet Phase III.
Regards,
Kari
On 28.6.2010 16:02, H Vlems wrote:
What I meant with the phase III-IV-V answer is that direct connectivity
between a phase V and phase III system won't work. But poor man's routing
will work with a phase IV node in between. Functionality of course is
limited by the phase III host :-)
But you're absolutely right that very few people will have a phase III
system, RT-11 being the most likely candidate?
I've seen the bridge program, but am not sure how to make the .conf file
work. Is it possible to use DECnet address 1.1010 to try and make this work?
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] Namens
Johnny Billquist
Verzonden: maandag, juni 2010 11:02
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Attaching to hecnet
Hi.
H Vlems wrote:
DECnet phase IV nodes are backwards compatible with phase III.
Yes. But the question here was if phase V will interoperate with phase
III. I don't know the answer to that one, but on the other hand, I don't
think anyone around is running phase III anyway.
There are no restrictions in functionality between phase IV nodes and
phase
V as seen by the unpriviledged user. Area routing may be an issue on
Alpha,
and of course ncl is more of a pain to remember than ncp ;-)
True, as far as that goes.
However, I am not sure that a phase V node can operate as a phase IV
area router.
Someone else pointed out that although DEC claimed that alphas could not
be area routers, that information is incorrect, and you can just tell an
Alpha VMS phase IV node to be an area router, if you want to.
However, DECnet+ is phase V, and all bets are off. :-)
And yes, not only are the NCL commands more difficult to remember
(atleast for me), the node name management is way more difficult as
well. Do anyone know how you copy a nodename database from another
machine with DECnet+?
Two questions:
1-May I use area 44?
Sure.
2-Is there a short guide to set up DECnet over IP to connect to HECnet?
Not that I know of. Maybe Mark Wickens have something on hecnet.eu?
My page (http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html) only have information
about the bridge.
Johnny
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] Namens
Marc Chametzky
Verzonden: maandag, juni 2010 0:04
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Attaching to hecnet
DECnet-Plus isn't
able to connect, or at least reliably connect to all OS's that can
potentially be on HECnet. I forget what all OS's I was having issues
with, I know one was RSTS/E v10.1, but I want to say it also included
VAX/VMS. Once I *upgraded* my Alpha running OpenVMS to DECnet Phase IV,
all these issues went away. These were things as simple as SET HOST.
It's probably that DECnet-Plus (Phase V) cannot speak with DECnet Phase
III (such as on RSTS/E and TOPS-10/20). That's my guess anyway.
Phase V should be able to communicate with VAX/VMS since that's Phase
IV, which is the gold standard of DECnet, IMHO.
--Marc
Geen virus gevonden in het binnenkomende-bericht.
Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com
Versie: 9.0.830 / Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/2966 - datum van uitgifte:
06/27/10
08:35:00
Geen virus gevonden in het binnenkomende-bericht.
Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com
Versie: 9.0.830 / Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/2968 - datum van uitgifte: 06/28/10
08:37:00
.
What I meant with the phase III-IV-V answer is that direct connectivity
between a phase V and phase III system won't work. But poor man's routing
will work with a phase IV node in between. Functionality of course is
limited by the phase III host :-)
But you're absolutely right that very few people will have a phase III
system, RT-11 being the most likely candidate?
I've seen the bridge program, but am not sure how to make the .conf file
work. Is it possible to use DECnet address 1.1010 to try and make this work?
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] Namens
Johnny Billquist
Verzonden: maandag, juni 2010 11:02
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Attaching to hecnet
Hi.
H Vlems wrote:
DECnet phase IV nodes are backwards compatible with phase III.
Yes. But the question here was if phase V will interoperate with phase
III. I don't know the answer to that one, but on the other hand, I don't
think anyone around is running phase III anyway.
There are no restrictions in functionality between phase IV nodes and
phase
V as seen by the unpriviledged user. Area routing may be an issue on
Alpha,
and of course ncl is more of a pain to remember than ncp ;-)
True, as far as that goes.
However, I am not sure that a phase V node can operate as a phase IV
area router.
Someone else pointed out that although DEC claimed that alphas could not
be area routers, that information is incorrect, and you can just tell an
Alpha VMS phase IV node to be an area router, if you want to.
However, DECnet+ is phase V, and all bets are off. :-)
And yes, not only are the NCL commands more difficult to remember
(atleast for me), the node name management is way more difficult as
well. Do anyone know how you copy a nodename database from another
machine with DECnet+?
Two questions:
1-May I use area 44?
Sure.
2-Is there a short guide to set up DECnet over IP to connect to HECnet?
Not that I know of. Maybe Mark Wickens have something on hecnet.eu?
My page (http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html) only have information
about the bridge.
Johnny
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] Namens
Marc Chametzky
Verzonden: maandag, juni 2010 0:04
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Attaching to hecnet
DECnet-Plus isn't
able to connect, or at least reliably connect to all OS's that can
potentially be on HECnet. I forget what all OS's I was having issues
with, I know one was RSTS/E v10.1, but I want to say it also included
VAX/VMS. Once I *upgraded* my Alpha running OpenVMS to DECnet Phase IV,
all these issues went away. These were things as simple as SET HOST.
It's probably that DECnet-Plus (Phase V) cannot speak with DECnet Phase
III (such as on RSTS/E and TOPS-10/20). That's my guess anyway.
Phase V should be able to communicate with VAX/VMS since that's Phase
IV, which is the gold standard of DECnet, IMHO.
--Marc
Geen virus gevonden in het binnenkomende-bericht.
Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com
Versie: 9.0.830 / Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/2966 - datum van uitgifte:
06/27/10
08:35:00
Geen virus gevonden in het binnenkomende-bericht.
Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com
Versie: 9.0.830 / Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/2968 - datum van uitgifte: 06/28/10
08:37:00
On 28.6.2010 12:02, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Hi.
H Vlems wrote:
DECnet phase IV nodes are backwards compatible with phase III.
Yes. But the question here was if phase V will interoperate with phase
III. I don't know the answer to that one, but on the other hand, I don't
think anyone around is running phase III anyway.
There are no restrictions in functionality between phase IV nodes and
phase
V as seen by the unpriviledged user. Area routing may be an issue on
Alpha,
and of course ncl is more of a pain to remember than ncp ;-)
True, as far as that goes.
However, I am not sure that a phase V node can operate as a phase IV
area router.
A DECnet-plus node can operate as an area router both in a Phase IV network and in a Phase V network.
To be familiar with NCL you need to build a "mindset" where you have a clear view of all the manageable entities in Phase V. Then you need to understand the syntax used in NCL. After that it is quite straightforward.
As NCL is such a powerful management language, it was chosen to be the management language of the DECss7 product as well.
Someone else pointed out that although DEC claimed that alphas could not
be area routers, that information is incorrect, and you can just tell an
Alpha VMS phase IV node to be an area router, if you want to.
However, DECnet+ is phase V, and all bets are off. :-)
There was some versions of DECnet-plus for Alpha which didn't support area routing, but modern versions do.
And yes, not only are the NCL commands more difficult to remember
(atleast for me), the node name management is way more difficult as
well. Do anyone know how you copy a nodename database from another
machine with DECnet+?
If the DECdns is not used, the local namespace (=nodename database) from one node can be exported to a file and the file transferred to another node and then the namespace is imported with decnet_register, which is the utility used for managing the local namespace.
Two questions:
1-May I use area 44?
Sure.
May I use the area 16?
2-Is there a short guide to set up DECnet over IP to connect to HECnet?
Not that I know of. Maybe Mark Wickens have something on hecnet.eu?
My page (http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html) only have information
about the bridge.
Johnny
Regards,
Kari
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] Namens
Marc Chametzky
Verzonden: maandag, juni 2010 0:04
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Attaching to hecnet
DECnet-Plus isn't
able to connect, or at least reliably connect to all OS's that can
potentially be on HECnet. I forget what all OS's I was having issues
with, I know one was RSTS/E v10.1, but I want to say it also included
VAX/VMS. Once I *upgraded* my Alpha running OpenVMS to DECnet Phase IV,
all these issues went away. These were things as simple as SET HOST.
It's probably that DECnet-Plus (Phase V) cannot speak with DECnet
Phase III (such as on RSTS/E and TOPS-10/20). That's my guess anyway.
Phase V should be able to communicate with VAX/VMS since that's Phase
IV, which is the gold standard of DECnet, IMHO.
--Marc
Geen virus gevonden in het binnenkomende-bericht.
Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com Versie: 9.0.830 / Virusdatabase:
271.1.1/2966 - datum van uitgifte: 06/27/10
08:35:00
.
Hi.
H Vlems wrote:
DECnet phase IV nodes are backwards compatible with phase III.
Yes. But the question here was if phase V will interoperate with phase III. I don't know the answer to that one, but on the other hand, I don't think anyone around is running phase III anyway.
There are no restrictions in functionality between phase IV nodes and phase
V as seen by the unpriviledged user. Area routing may be an issue on Alpha,
and of course ncl is more of a pain to remember than ncp ;-)
True, as far as that goes.
However, I am not sure that a phase V node can operate as a phase IV area router.
Someone else pointed out that although DEC claimed that alphas could not be area routers, that information is incorrect, and you can just tell an Alpha VMS phase IV node to be an area router, if you want to.
However, DECnet+ is phase V, and all bets are off. :-)
And yes, not only are the NCL commands more difficult to remember (atleast for me), the node name management is way more difficult as well. Do anyone know how you copy a nodename database from another machine with DECnet+?
Two questions:
1-May I use area 44?
Sure.
2-Is there a short guide to set up DECnet over IP to connect to HECnet?
Not that I know of. Maybe Mark Wickens have something on hecnet.eu?
My page (http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html) only have information about the bridge.
Johnny
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] Namens
Marc Chametzky
Verzonden: maandag, juni 2010 0:04
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Attaching to hecnet
DECnet-Plus isn't
able to connect, or at least reliably connect to all OS's that can
potentially be on HECnet. I forget what all OS's I was having issues
with, I know one was RSTS/E v10.1, but I want to say it also included
VAX/VMS. Once I *upgraded* my Alpha running OpenVMS to DECnet Phase IV,
all these issues went away. These were things as simple as SET HOST.
It's probably that DECnet-Plus (Phase V) cannot speak with DECnet Phase III (such as on RSTS/E and TOPS-10/20). That's my guess anyway.
Phase V should be able to communicate with VAX/VMS since that's Phase IV, which is the gold standard of DECnet, IMHO.
--Marc
Geen virus gevonden in het binnenkomende-bericht.
Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com Versie: 9.0.830 / Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/2966 - datum van uitgifte: 06/27/10
08:35:00
DECnet phase IV nodes are backwards compatible with phase III.
There are no restrictions in functionality between phase IV nodes and phase
V as seen by the unpriviledged user. Area routing may be an issue on Alpha,
and of course ncl is more of a pain to remember than ncp ;-)
Two questions:
1-May I use area 44?
2-Is there a short guide to set up DECnet over IP to connect to HECnet?
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] Namens
Marc Chametzky
Verzonden: maandag, juni 2010 0:04
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Attaching to hecnet
DECnet-Plus isn't
able to connect, or at least reliably connect to all OS's that can
potentially be on HECnet. I forget what all OS's I was having issues
with, I know one was RSTS/E v10.1, but I want to say it also included
VAX/VMS. Once I *upgraded* my Alpha running OpenVMS to DECnet Phase IV,
all these issues went away. These were things as simple as SET HOST.
It's probably that DECnet-Plus (Phase V) cannot speak with DECnet Phase
III (such as on RSTS/E and TOPS-10/20). That's my guess anyway.
Phase V should be able to communicate with VAX/VMS since that's Phase
IV, which is the gold standard of DECnet, IMHO.
--Marc
Geen virus gevonden in het binnenkomende-bericht.
Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com
Versie: 9.0.830 / Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/2966 - datum van uitgifte: 06/27/10
08:35:00
Marc Chametzky wrote:
DECnet-Plus isn't
able to connect, or at least reliably connect to all OS's that can
potentially be on HECnet. I forget what all OS's I was having issues
with, I know one was RSTS/E v10.1, but I want to say it also included
VAX/VMS. Once I *upgraded* my Alpha running OpenVMS to DECnet Phase IV,
all these issues went away. These were things as simple as SET HOST.
It's probably that DECnet-Plus (Phase V) cannot speak with DECnet Phase III (such as on RSTS/E and TOPS-10/20). That's my guess anyway.
Phase V should be able to communicate with VAX/VMS since that's Phase IV, which is the gold standard of DECnet, IMHO.
TOPS-20 DECnet is phase IV, and I believe that the latest version of DECnet for RSTS/E is also phase IV.
Johnny
DECnet-Plus isn't
able to connect, or at least reliably connect to all OS's that can
potentially be on HECnet. I forget what all OS's I was having issues
with, I know one was RSTS/E v10.1, but I want to say it also included
VAX/VMS. Once I *upgraded* my Alpha running OpenVMS to DECnet Phase IV,
all these issues went away. These were things as simple as SET HOST.
It's probably that DECnet-Plus (Phase V) cannot speak with DECnet Phase III (such as on RSTS/E and TOPS-10/20). That's my guess anyway.
Phase V should be able to communicate with VAX/VMS since that's Phase IV, which is the gold standard of DECnet, IMHO.
--Marc
At 2:03 PM -0700 6/27/10, Johnny Billquist wrote:
DECnet+ over IP: I have no idea if it is doable, but if it is, feel free. HECnet as such is totally connection-agnostic. Anything that works is acceptable. My experience (both from myself, and others) is that DECnet+ is more of an headache than a win, but that's more from an adminitrative point of view. Technically, it works just fine.
I'm uncertain if DECnet+ can act as an area router though, so you might need to have atleast one DECnet node, in order to have your own area.
One quick comment on this based on my own findings. DECnet-Plus isn't able to connect, or at least reliably connect to all OS's that can potentially be on HECnet. I forget what all OS's I was having issues with, I know one was RSTS/E v10.1, but I want to say it also included VAX/VMS. Once I *upgraded* my Alpha running OpenVMS to DECnet Phase IV, all these issues went away. These were things as simple as SET HOST.
Unfortunately, it's been several years, and I don't remember the specifics. Also, I've never had Tru-64 running DECnet as far as I can remember (it's been about 12 years since I ran it).
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
I've got a SIMH VAX with Decnet+ set up somewhere, so I might be up for trying to get the Decnet+-IP-tunnel thingie going.
Sampsa
On 27 Jun 2010, at 22:03, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Kari Uusim ki wrote:
On 27.6.2010 13:44, Mark Wickens wrote:
Hi Guys,
There is some info on http://hecnet.eu but at the moment it is very
targeted to a 'standard' installation. If you end up using a
non-standard installation please let me know what you have to do so I
can add the info to the website.
If you want your own area Johnny is your man - he is busy but will get
round to answering your query.
I'd be interested to know if it's possible to get the bridge working
under tru64 also...
Regards, Mark
.
Well, what is standard and what is not. That is a question of from which point of view you are thinking, isn't it? ;)
To some people the DECnet-plus or Multinet with DECnet-over-IP is standard and to others the Cisco tunneling is standard. To the HECnet community the bridge software is standard.
