Even if I weren't afraid of Apple because of their "app store" monopolistic grabbiness (they used to be so nice in the old days), Yup - any developers just ignore them and don't both with their stilly app store. Many I know flip off Apple on that. Jobs was always bad about that actually, he had to leave and come back for the gates to open. Remember, the OSX stuff, darwin, etc - really was before Jobs. Used to Jailbreak my phones back in the day but nowadays there is nothing that I can't get on the App Store for free or a few bucks. So whoever this many developers are, I really don't care about their work :) As for Jobs, uhh, OS X is an extension of OpenStep which Apple they got the rights to when they acquired Next and they brought Jobs in. What are you talking about? OS X isn't a closed environment (I seriously don't feel any more restricted on my OS X host OS than any Linux VM) it just isn't open source. I get access to both OooShiny(tm) Cocoa apps that install by dragging into a folder, and either packages via apt or BSD ports. Somebody tell me how I'm being oppressed again? I LOATHED Apple pre-OS X, had to learn C in Uni on that piece of shit OS which would crash the whole OS on a pointer error and then take 20 mins to boot in a networked environment But Nextstep, Openstep and now OS X are simply my favourite desktop environments. Oh and it's Unix underneath. And the hardware is a tad expensiveish and I'm worried about the future of the 17" MBP line (I don't want a retina display, I can't see that well anyway, I want a big physical damn thing :) If OS X didn't exist, I'd probably be running a laptop with a hacked-up version of OpenStep 4+ or even GNUStep. sampsa