14 Jul
2024
14 Jul
'24
10:20 a.m.
"merlyn drforbin" <kropotkin(a)gmx.com> wrote:
Any way to set endpoint buffer size on panda decnet
phase IV
Could some of this (in SYSTEM:7-CONFIG.CMD) be what you are looking for?
This is from RARITY (not PANDA, but DEC vanilla distribution,kind of), I'm
not sure I have the correct values myself, been experimenting.
; DECnet parameters:
;default is DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 576
decnet buffer-size 1476
;default is DECNET MAXIMUM-BUFFERS 80
;decnet maximum-buffers 40
--
Anders Andersson, Uppsala, Sweden
14 Jul
14 Jul
11:04 a.m.
New subject: hii guys..tops20 expert needed
Anders...
On 2024-07-14 10:20, Anders Andersson wrote:
"merlyn drforbin" <kropotkin(a)gmx.com>
wrote:
Hmm. That do not seem to be the values currently used:
.ncp tell rarity sho exec cha
Node characteristics as of 14-JUL-24 10:58:22
Executor node = 1.802 (RARITY)
Identification = Rarity of Maneframe Six
Management version = 4.0.0
Software identification = DECnet-20 Version 4.0
Loop count = 1, Loop length = 127
Loop with = Mixed
Incoming timer = 30, Outgoing timer = 60
NSP version = 4.0.0
Maximum links = 65535, Delay factor = 48
Delay weight = 10, Inactivity timer = 120
Retransmit factor = 10, Routing version = 2.0.0
Type = Routing IV, Routing timer = 600
Broadcast routing timer = 40
Maximum address = 1023, Maximum circuits = 20
Maximum cost = 100, Maximum hops = 16
Maximum visits = 20, Maximum broadcast endnodes = 64
Maximum broadcast routers = 32, Maximum buffers = 80
Buffer size = 576, Segment buffer size = 576
.
However, also to clarify some things. The segment buffer size should
probably stay at 576. This is basically the size of packets used at the
DECnet level, and I have some vague recollection that nodes should use
the same size, or DECnet might fail. DECnet is not that clever about
different sizes there.
The buffer size on the other hand can be larger (modulo VMS bug that I
mentioned a few days ago), but that would only be used by link layer
protocols, like the routing information packets that are sent, for example.
But if you are experimenting, please let me know if you figure something
out. Positive or negative. Always good with more information.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Any way to set endpoint buffer size on panda
decnet phase IV
Could some of this (in SYSTEM:7-CONFIG.CMD) be what you are looking for?
This is from RARITY (not PANDA, but DEC vanilla distribution,kind of), I'm
not sure I have the correct values myself, been experimenting.
; DECnet parameters:
;default is DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 576
decnet buffer-size 1476
;default is DECNET MAXIMUM-BUFFERS 80
;decnet maximum-buffers 40 
15 Jul
15 Jul
10:48 p.m.
New subject: hii guys..tops20 expert needed
These are the relevant lines from my SYSTEM:7-1-CONFIG.CMD:
DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 1476
DECNET MAXIMUM-ADDRESS 1023
NODE VENTI2 2.522
DECNET ROUTER-LEVEL-1
ETHERNET 0 DECNET
The maximum buffer size of 1476 is what I determined from a review of
the relevant code in the monitor, which I commented about, some months
back (but see below).
This is the response from my local excutor (VENTI2::)
OPR>ncp shOW exECUTOR chaRACTERISTICS
Request # 280; Show Executor Node Characteristics Completed
Executor Node = 2.522 (VENTI2)
Identification = Venti Due Test System
Management Version = 4.0.0
CPU = DECSYSTEM1020
Software Identification = Tops-20 7.1 PANDA II
Loop Count = 1
Loop Length = 127
Loop With = Mixed
Incoming Timer = 30
Outgoing Timer = 60
NSP Version = 4.0.0
Maximum Links = 65535
Delay Factor = 48
Delay Weight = 10
Inactivity Timer = 120
Retransmit Factor = 10
Routing Version = 2.0.0
Type = Routing IV
Routing Timer = 600
Broadcast Routing Timer = 40
Maximum Address = 1023
Maximum Circuits = 20
Maximum Cost = 100
Maximum Hops = 16
Maximum Visits = 20
Maximum Broadcast Nonrouters = 64
Maximum Broadcast Routers = 32
Maximum Buffers = 80
Buffer Size = 576
Segment Buffer Size = 576
The buffer size of 576 is what I remember being for non-Ethernet packets
going over an IMP (which I'm sure is irrelevant because this was IP
only). 1500 is the maximum for non-jumbo sized Ethernet frames, the
1476 length being 24 bytes less. I plan to investigate that when I
finally get into the guts of why ERROR.SYS fills up with class 5 errors
from NTMAN for packets being too long.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 7/14/24 5:04 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Anders...
On 2024-07-14 10:20, Anders Andersson wrote:
"merlyn drforbin"
<kropotkin(a)gmx.com> wrote:
Hmm. That do not seem to be the values currently used:
.ncp tell rarity sho exec cha
Node characteristics as of 14-JUL-24 10:58:22
Executor node = 1.802 (RARITY)
Identification = Rarity of Maneframe Six
Management version = 4.0.0
Software identification = DECnet-20 Version 4.0
Loop count = 1, Loop length = 127
Loop with = Mixed
Incoming timer = 30, Outgoing timer = 60
NSP version = 4.0.0
Maximum links = 65535, Delay factor = 48
Delay weight = 10, Inactivity timer = 120
Retransmit factor = 10, Routing version = 2.0.0
Type = Routing IV, Routing timer = 600
Broadcast routing timer = 40
Maximum address = 1023, Maximum circuits = 20
Maximum cost = 100, Maximum hops = 16
Maximum visits = 20, Maximum broadcast endnodes = 64
Maximum broadcast routers = 32, Maximum buffers = 80
Buffer size = 576, Segment buffer size = 576
.
However, also to clarify some things. The segment buffer size should
probably stay at 576. This is basically the size of packets used at
the DECnet level, and I have some vague recollection that nodes should
use the same size, or DECnet might fail. DECnet is not that clever
about different sizes there.
The buffer size on the other hand can be larger (modulo VMS bug that I
mentioned a few days ago), but that would only be used by link layer
protocols, like the routing information packets that are sent, for
example.
But if you are experimenting, please let me know if you figure
something out. Positive or negative. Always good with more information.
Johnny
Any way to set endpoint buffer size on panda
decnet phase IV
Could some of this (in SYSTEM:7-CONFIG.CMD) be what you are looking
for?
This is from RARITY (not PANDA, but DEC vanilla distribution,kind
of), I'm
not sure I have the correct values myself, been experimenting.
; DECnet parameters:
;default is DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 576
decnet buffer-size 1476
;default is DECNET MAXIMUM-BUFFERS 80
;decnet maximum-buffers 40
16 Jul
16 Jul
2:49 a.m.
New subject: hii guys..tops20 expert needed
Maybe someone can explain to me why it looks like the buffer size
reported by NCP is 576 when it sounds like you are both setting it to 1476?
Johnny
On 2024-07-15 22:48, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
These are the relevant lines from my
SYSTEM:7-1-CONFIG.CMD:
DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 1476
DECNET MAXIMUM-ADDRESS 1023
NODE VENTI2 2.522
DECNET ROUTER-LEVEL-1
ETHERNET 0 DECNET
The maximum buffer size of 1476 is what I determined from a review of
the relevant code in the monitor, which I commented about, some months
back (but see below).
This is the response from my local excutor (VENTI2::)
OPR>ncp shOW exECUTOR chaRACTERISTICS
Request # 280; Show Executor Node Characteristics Completed
Executor Node = 2.522 (VENTI2)
Identification = Venti Due Test System
Management Version = 4.0.0
CPU = DECSYSTEM1020
Software Identification = Tops-20 7.1 PANDA II
Loop Count = 1
Loop Length = 127
Loop With = Mixed
Incoming Timer = 30
Outgoing Timer = 60
NSP Version = 4.0.0
Maximum Links = 65535
Delay Factor = 48
Delay Weight = 10
Inactivity Timer = 120
Retransmit Factor = 10
Routing Version = 2.0.0
Type = Routing IV
Routing Timer = 600
Broadcast Routing Timer = 40
Maximum Address = 1023
Maximum Circuits = 20
Maximum Cost = 100
Maximum Hops = 16
Maximum Visits = 20
Maximum Broadcast Nonrouters = 64
Maximum Broadcast Routers = 32
Maximum Buffers = 80
Buffer Size = 576
Segment Buffer Size = 576
The buffer size of 576 is what I remember being for non-Ethernet packets
going over an IMP (which I'm sure is irrelevant because this was IP
only). 1500 is the maximum for non-jumbo sized Ethernet frames, the
1476 length being 24 bytes less. I plan to investigate that when I
finally get into the guts of why ERROR.SYS fills up with class 5 errors
from NTMAN for packets being too long.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 7/14/24 5:04 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Anders...
On 2024-07-14 10:20, Anders Andersson wrote:
_______________________________________________
HECnet mailing list -- hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se "merlyn drforbin"
<kropotkin(a)gmx.com> wrote:
Hmm. That do not seem to be the values currently used:
.ncp tell rarity sho exec cha
Node characteristics as of 14-JUL-24 10:58:22
Executor node = 1.802 (RARITY)
Identification = Rarity of Maneframe Six
Management version = 4.0.0
Software identification = DECnet-20 Version 4.0
Loop count = 1, Loop length = 127
Loop with = Mixed
Incoming timer = 30, Outgoing timer = 60
NSP version = 4.0.0
Maximum links = 65535, Delay factor = 48
Delay weight = 10, Inactivity timer = 120
Retransmit factor = 10, Routing version = 2.0.0
Type = Routing IV, Routing timer = 600
Broadcast routing timer = 40
Maximum address = 1023, Maximum circuits = 20
Maximum cost = 100, Maximum hops = 16
Maximum visits = 20, Maximum broadcast endnodes = 64
Maximum broadcast routers = 32, Maximum buffers = 80
Buffer size = 576, Segment buffer size = 576
.
However, also to clarify some things. The segment buffer size should
probably stay at 576. This is basically the size of packets used at
the DECnet level, and I have some vague recollection that nodes should
use the same size, or DECnet might fail. DECnet is not that clever
about different sizes there.
The buffer size on the other hand can be larger (modulo VMS bug that I
mentioned a few days ago), but that would only be used by link layer
protocols, like the routing information packets that are sent, for
example.
But if you are experimenting, please let me know if you figure
something out. Positive or negative. Always good with more information.
Johnny
Any way to set endpoint buffer size on panda
decnet phase IV
Could some of this (in SYSTEM:7-CONFIG.CMD) be what you are looking
for?
This is from RARITY (not PANDA, but DEC vanilla distribution,kind
of), I'm
not sure I have the correct values myself, been experimenting.
; DECnet parameters:
;default is DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 576
decnet buffer-size 1476
;default is DECNET MAXIMUM-BUFFERS 80
;decnet maximum-buffers 40 
3:04 a.m.
New subject: hii guys..tops20 expert needed
I think that 1476 is a TOPS-20 private thing, the data link buffer sized used by the
Ethernet driver. The NCP parameters control what routing advertises (buffer size) and
what NSP asks for as connection segment size (segment buffer size).
paul
On Jul 15, 2024, at 8:49 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
Maybe someone can explain to me why it looks like the buffer size reported by NCP is 576
when it sounds like you are both setting it to 1476?
Johnny
On 2024-07-15 22:48, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
These are the relevant lines from my
SYSTEM:7-1-CONFIG.CMD:
DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 1476
DECNET MAXIMUM-ADDRESS 1023
NODE VENTI2 2.522
DECNET ROUTER-LEVEL-1
ETHERNET 0 DECNET
The maximum buffer size of 1476 is what I determined from a review of the relevant code
in the monitor, which I commented about, some months back (but see below).
This is the response from my local excutor (VENTI2::)
OPR>ncp shOW exECUTOR chaRACTERISTICS
Request # 280; Show Executor Node Characteristics Completed
Executor Node = 2.522 (VENTI2)
Identification = Venti Due Test System
Management Version = 4.0.0
CPU = DECSYSTEM1020
Software Identification = Tops-20 7.1 PANDA II
Loop Count = 1
Loop Length = 127
Loop With = Mixed
Incoming Timer = 30
Outgoing Timer = 60
NSP Version = 4.0.0
Maximum Links = 65535
Delay Factor = 48
Delay Weight = 10
Inactivity Timer = 120
Retransmit Factor = 10
Routing Version = 2.0.0
Type = Routing IV
Routing Timer = 600
Broadcast Routing Timer = 40
Maximum Address = 1023
Maximum Circuits = 20
Maximum Cost = 100
Maximum Hops = 16
Maximum Visits = 20
Maximum Broadcast Nonrouters = 64
Maximum Broadcast Routers = 32
Maximum Buffers = 80
Buffer Size = 576
Segment Buffer Size = 576
The buffer size of 576 is what I remember being for non-Ethernet packets going over an
IMP (which I'm sure is irrelevant because this was IP only). 1500 is the maximum for
non-jumbo sized Ethernet frames, the 1476 length being 24 bytes less. I plan to
investigate that when I finally get into the guts of why ERROR.SYS fills up with class 5
errors from NTMAN for packets being too long.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 7/14/24 5:04 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
_______________________________________________
HECnet mailing list -- hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se Anders...
On 2024-07-14 10:20, Anders Andersson wrote:
_______________________________________________
HECnet mailing list -- hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se "merlyn drforbin"
<kropotkin(a)gmx.com> wrote:
> Any way to set endpoint buffer size on panda decnet phase IV
Could some of this (in SYSTEM:7-CONFIG.CMD) be what you are looking for?
This is from RARITY (not PANDA, but DEC vanilla distribution,kind of), I'm
not sure I have the correct values myself, been experimenting.
; DECnet parameters:
;default is DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 576
decnet buffer-size 1476
;default is DECNET MAXIMUM-BUFFERS 80
;decnet maximum-buffers 40
Hmm. That do not seem to be the values currently used:
.ncp tell rarity sho exec cha
Node characteristics as of 14-JUL-24 10:58:22
Executor node = 1.802 (RARITY)
Identification = Rarity of Maneframe Six
Management version = 4.0.0
Software identification = DECnet-20 Version 4.0
Loop count = 1, Loop length = 127
Loop with = Mixed
Incoming timer = 30, Outgoing timer = 60
NSP version = 4.0.0
Maximum links = 65535, Delay factor = 48
Delay weight = 10, Inactivity timer = 120
Retransmit factor = 10, Routing version = 2.0.0
Type = Routing IV, Routing timer = 600
Broadcast routing timer = 40
Maximum address = 1023, Maximum circuits = 20
Maximum cost = 100, Maximum hops = 16
Maximum visits = 20, Maximum broadcast endnodes = 64
Maximum broadcast routers = 32, Maximum buffers = 80
Buffer size = 576, Segment buffer size = 576
.
However, also to clarify some things. The segment buffer size should probably stay at
576. This is basically the size of packets used at the DECnet level, and I have some vague
recollection that nodes should use the same size, or DECnet might fail. DECnet is not that
clever about different sizes there.
The buffer size on the other hand can be larger (modulo VMS bug that I mentioned a few
days ago), but that would only be used by link layer protocols, like the routing
information packets that are sent, for example.
But if you are experimenting, please let me know if you figure something out. Positive or
negative. Always good with more information.
Johnny
3:12 a.m.
New subject: hii guys..tops20 expert needed
Yes, 1746 has always struck me as an odd number, but the macro
definitions which calculate it were puzzling enough that I didn't want
to assume. As I recall, there was commentary about fidgeting with the
number which I also didn't think I understood at the time. But this was
over three years ago, so I could certainly be misremembering.
Just as a reminder for any Tops-20 user: your ERROR.SYS file */will/*
fill up with class 5 events (buffer not large enough) if you don't
condition NTMAC to ignore this. At NMXFIL+1, you need to change three
lines, viz:
NMXFIL: $SFIL
$FIL(2,4) ;[T152] ;Event classes 2 through 4 known by monitor
$NOFIL(5,5) ;[T152] ;HECnet overflows us with packet too long
$FIL(6,6) ;[T152] ;Event class 6 known by monitor
$NOFIL(^D96,^D96) ;LCG specific events - turned off
IFN FTDEBUG <
$FIL(^D480,^D480) ;Accept event class 480 while debugging
$EFIL
On 7/15/24 9:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
I think that 1476 is a TOPS-20 private thing, the data
link buffer sized used by the Ethernet driver. The NCP parameters control what routing
advertises (buffer size) and what NSP asks for as connection segment size (segment buffer
size).
paul
On Jul 15, 2024, at 8:49 PM, Johnny
Billquist<bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
Maybe someone can explain to me why it looks like the buffer size reported by NCP is 576
when it sounds like you are both setting it to 1476?
Johnny
On 2024-07-15 22:48, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
_______________________________________________
HECnet mailing list --hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
To unsubscribe send an email tohecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se These are the relevant lines from my
SYSTEM:7-1-CONFIG.CMD:
DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 1476
DECNET MAXIMUM-ADDRESS 1023
NODE VENTI2 2.522
DECNET ROUTER-LEVEL-1
ETHERNET 0 DECNET
The maximum buffer size of 1476 is what I determined from a review of the relevant code
in the monitor, which I commented about, some months back (but see below).
This is the response from my local excutor (VENTI2::)
OPR>ncp shOW exECUTOR chaRACTERISTICS
Request # 280; Show Executor Node Characteristics Completed
Executor Node = 2.522 (VENTI2)
Identification = Venti Due Test System
Management Version = 4.0.0
CPU = DECSYSTEM1020
Software Identification = Tops-20 7.1 PANDA II
Loop Count = 1
Loop Length = 127
Loop With = Mixed
Incoming Timer = 30
Outgoing Timer = 60
NSP Version = 4.0.0
Maximum Links = 65535
Delay Factor = 48
Delay Weight = 10
Inactivity Timer = 120
Retransmit Factor = 10
Routing Version = 2.0.0
Type = Routing IV
Routing Timer = 600
Broadcast Routing Timer = 40
Maximum Address = 1023
Maximum Circuits = 20
Maximum Cost = 100
Maximum Hops = 16
Maximum Visits = 20
Maximum Broadcast Nonrouters = 64
Maximum Broadcast Routers = 32
Maximum Buffers = 80
Buffer Size = 576
Segment Buffer Size = 576
The buffer size of 576 is what I remember being for non-Ethernet packets going over an
IMP (which I'm sure is irrelevant because this was IP only). 1500 is the maximum for
non-jumbo sized Ethernet frames, the 1476 length being 24 bytes less. I plan to
investigate that when I finally get into the guts of why ERROR.SYS fills up with class 5
errors from NTMAN for packets being too long.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 7/14/24 5:04 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email:bqt@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
_______________________________________________
HECnet mailing list --hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
To unsubscribe send an email tohecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se Anders...
On 2024-07-14 10:20, Anders Andersson wrote:
> "merlyn drforbin"<kropotkin(a)gmx.com> wrote:
>
>> Any way to set endpoint buffer size on panda decnet phase IV
> Could some of this (in SYSTEM:7-CONFIG.CMD) be what you are looking for?
> This is from RARITY (not PANDA, but DEC vanilla distribution,kind of), I'm
> not sure I have the correct values myself, been experimenting.
> ; DECnet parameters:
> ;default is DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 576
> decnet buffer-size 1476
> ;default is DECNET MAXIMUM-BUFFERS 80
> ;decnet maximum-buffers 40
Hmm. That do not seem to be the values currently used:
.ncp tell rarity sho exec cha
Node characteristics as of 14-JUL-24 10:58:22
Executor node = 1.802 (RARITY)
Identification = Rarity of Maneframe Six
Management version = 4.0.0
Software identification = DECnet-20 Version 4.0
Loop count = 1, Loop length = 127
Loop with = Mixed
Incoming timer = 30, Outgoing timer = 60
NSP version = 4.0.0
Maximum links = 65535, Delay factor = 48
Delay weight = 10, Inactivity timer = 120
Retransmit factor = 10, Routing version = 2.0.0
Type = Routing IV, Routing timer = 600
Broadcast routing timer = 40
Maximum address = 1023, Maximum circuits = 20
Maximum cost = 100, Maximum hops = 16
Maximum visits = 20, Maximum broadcast endnodes = 64
Maximum broadcast routers = 32, Maximum buffers = 80
Buffer size = 576, Segment buffer size = 576
.
However, also to clarify some things. The segment buffer size should probably stay at
576. This is basically the size of packets used at the DECnet level, and I have some vague
recollection that nodes should use the same size, or DECnet might fail. DECnet is not that
clever about different sizes there.
The buffer size on the other hand can be larger (modulo VMS bug that I mentioned a few
days ago), but that would only be used by link layer protocols, like the routing
information packets that are sent, for example.
But if you are experimenting, please let me know if you figure something out. Positive or
negative. Always good with more information.
Johnny
_______________________________________________
HECnet mailing list --hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
To unsubscribe send an email tohecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se
3:20 a.m.
New subject: hii guys..tops20 expert needed
My question wasn't about the exact number, but the fact that it was not
the number shown by NCP.
There is control over both in RSX as well, but there NICE isn't
reporting the buffer size in that parameter, but you can see it in
another place, and yes, it's the value used in the routing advertising,
which makes sense, since that is what you announce you will accept as
size for routing packets. And yes, it's (completely) unrelated to the
segment buffer size, which is what NSP cares about. And as long as the
buffer size is atleast large enough to hold the maximum segment size,
everything will be happy.
I also haven't checked any code, but for ethernet, I would think that
routers will either send out 1500 byte packets, or send out the packet
the size of the smallest announced accepted size. Now I'm sortof curious
which. Maybe the DECnet routing spec already would tell me... I know
that for point-to-point links, RSX sends packets larger than the segment
size if routing init says it can accept that, as long as the sending
side can build that size.
And that is also where VMS had the bug that I mentioned before.
Johnny
On 2024-07-16 03:12, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
Yes, 1746 has always struck me as an odd number, but
the macro
definitions which calculate it were puzzling enough that I didn't want
to assume. As I recall, there was commentary about fidgeting withthe
number which I also didn't think I understood at the time. But this was
over three years ago, so I could certainly be misremembering.
Just as a reminder for any Tops-20 user: your ERROR.SYS file */will/*
fill up with class 5 events (buffer not large enough) if you don't
condition NTMAC to ignore this. At NMXFIL+1, you need to change three
lines, viz:
NMXFIL: $SFIL
$FIL(2,4) ;[T152] ;Event classes 2 through 4 known by monitor
$NOFIL(5,5) ;[T152] ;HECnet overflows us with packet too long
$FIL(6,6) ;[T152] ;Event class 6 known by monitor
$NOFIL(^D96,^D96) ;LCG specific events - turned off
IFN FTDEBUG <
$FIL(^D480,^D480) ;Accept event class 480 while debugging
$EFIL
On 7/15/24 9:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
I think that 1476 is a TOPS-20 private thing, the
data link buffer sized used by the Ethernet driver. The NCP parameters control what
routing advertises (buffer size) and what NSP asks for as connection segment size(segment
buffer size).
paul
_______________________________________________
HECnet mailing list -- hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se On Jul 15, 2024, at 8:49 PM, Johnny
Billquist<bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
Maybe someone can explain to me why it looks like the buffer size reported by NCP is 576
when it sounds like you are both setting it to 1476?
Johnny
On 2024-07-15 22:48, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
_______________________________________________
HECnet mailing list --hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
To unsubscribe send an email tohecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se These are the relevant lines from my
SYSTEM:7-1-CONFIG.CMD:
DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 1476
DECNET MAXIMUM-ADDRESS 1023
NODE VENTI2 2.522
DECNET ROUTER-LEVEL-1
ETHERNET 0 DECNET
The maximum buffer size of 1476 is what I determined from a review of the relevant code
in the monitor, which I commented about, some months back (but see below).
This is the response from my local excutor (VENTI2::)
OPR>ncp shOW exECUTOR chaRACTERISTICS
Request # 280; Show Executor Node Characteristics Completed
Executor Node = 2.522 (VENTI2)
Identification = Venti Due Test System
Management Version = 4.0.0
CPU = DECSYSTEM1020
Software Identification = Tops-20 7.1 PANDA II
Loop Count = 1
Loop Length = 127
Loop With = Mixed
Incoming Timer = 30
Outgoing Timer = 60
NSP Version = 4.0.0
Maximum Links = 65535
Delay Factor = 48
Delay Weight = 10
Inactivity Timer = 120
Retransmit Factor = 10
Routing Version = 2.0.0
Type = Routing IV
Routing Timer = 600
Broadcast Routing Timer = 40
Maximum Address = 1023
Maximum Circuits = 20
Maximum Cost = 100
Maximum Hops = 16
Maximum Visits = 20
Maximum Broadcast Nonrouters = 64
Maximum Broadcast Routers = 32
Maximum Buffers = 80
Buffer Size = 576
Segment Buffer Size = 576
The buffer size of 576 is what I remember being for non-Ethernet packets going over an
IMP (which I'm sure is irrelevant because this was IP only). 1500 is the maximum for
non-jumbo sized Ethernet frames, the 1476length being 24 bytes less. I plan to
investigate that when I finally get into the guts of why ERROR.SYS fills up with class 5
errors from NTMANfor packets being too long.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 7/14/24 5:04 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> Anders...
>
> On 2024-07-14 10:20, Anders Andersson wrote:
>> "merlyn drforbin"<kropotkin(a)gmx.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Any way to set endpoint buffer size on panda decnet phase IV
>> Could some of this (in SYSTEM:7-CONFIG.CMD) be what you are looking for?
>> This is from RARITY (not PANDA, but DEC vanilla distribution,kind of), I'm
>> not sure I have the correct values myself, been experimenting.
>> ; DECnet parameters:
>> ;default is DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 576
>> decnet buffer-size 1476
>> ;default is DECNET MAXIMUM-BUFFERS 80
>> ;decnet maximum-buffers 40
> Hmm. That do not seem to be the values currently used:
>
> .ncp tell rarity sho exec cha
>
> Node characteristics as of 14-JUL-24 10:58:22
>
> Executor node = 1.802 (RARITY)
>
> Identification = Rarity of Maneframe Six
> Management version = 4.0.0
> Software identification = DECnet-20 Version 4.0
> Loop count = 1, Loop length = 127
> Loop with = Mixed
> Incoming timer = 30, Outgoing timer = 60
> NSP version = 4.0.0
> Maximum links = 65535, Delay factor = 48
> Delay weight = 10, Inactivity timer = 120
> Retransmit factor = 10, Routing version = 2.0.0
> Type = Routing IV, Routing timer = 600
> Broadcast routing timer = 40
> Maximum address = 1023, Maximum circuits = 20
> Maximum cost = 100, Maximum hops = 16
> Maximum visits = 20, Maximum broadcast endnodes = 64
> Maximum broadcast routers = 32, Maximum buffers = 80
> Buffer size = 576, Segment buffer size = 576
>
> .
>
>
> However, also to clarify some things. The segment buffer size should probably stay at
576. This is basically the size of packets used at theDECnet level, and I have some vague
recollection that nodes should use the same size, or DECnet might fail. DECnet is not that
clever about different sizes there.
> The buffer size on the other hand can be larger (modulo VMS bug that I mentioned a
few days ago), but that would only be used by link layer protocols, like the routing
information packets that are sent, for example.
>
> But if you are experimenting, please let me know if you figure something out.
Positive or negative. Always good with more information.
>
> Johnny
>
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3:23 a.m.
New subject: hii guys..tops20 expert needed
On Jul 15, 2024, at 9:20 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
My question wasn't about the exact number, but the fact that it was not the number
shown by NCP.
There is control over both in RSX as well, but there NICE isn't reporting the buffer
size in that parameter, but you can see it in another place, and yes, it's the value
used in the routing advertising, which makes sense, since that is what you announce you
will accept as size for routing packets. And yes, it's (completely) unrelated to the
segment buffer size, which is what NSP cares about. And as long as the buffer size is
atleast large enough to hold the maximum segment size, everything will be happy.
I also haven't checked any code, but for ethernet, I would think that routers will
either send out 1500 byte packets, or send out the packet the size of the smallest
announced accepted size. Now I'm sortof curious which. Maybe the DECnet routing spec
already would tell me... I know that for point-to-point links, RSX sends packets larger
than the segment size if routing init says it can accept that, as long as the sending side
can build that size.
Yes, the routing spec does say that. Routers gather up advertised buffer sizes from all
the adjacent nodes, and find the lowest advertised value. That minimum controls the size
of the routing messages, since those are multicast so they have to be sized correctly for
all the others.
paul
4:09 a.m.
New subject: hii guys..tops20 expert needed
Yes, that's the other thing that bothered me, that NML was not reporting
what is in the config file.
The BUFFER-SIZE parameter uses the NODE% JSYS .NDBSZ function to set the
IBBSIZ variable in the monitor. When I checked that, i found that it
was properly set to the specified value of 1476.
I did not see any corresponding NODE% function to read IBBSIZ, however,
so the question really is where the Tops-20 NICE process (NMLT20) might
be finding that out.
There is a function (.NDRDB) to return DECnet data blocks, but that
doesn't seem to return an obvious table. Similarly, one can determine
the segment size (.NDCIN), but apparently only for active connections.
Since DEC never released the source for Tops-20 NMLT20 (and believe me,
we asked for it!), that's about as far as I can go without some reverse
engineering to see what JSYI it's using and what these might be returning.
On 7/15/24 9:20 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
My question wasn't about the exact number, but the
fact that it was
not the number shown by NCP.
There is control over both in RSX as well, but there NICE isn't
reporting the buffer size in that parameter, but you can see it in
another place, and yes, it's the value used in the routing
advertising, which makes sense, since that is what you announce you
will accept as size for routing packets. And yes, it's (completely)
unrelated to the segment buffer size, which is what NSP cares about.
And as long as the buffer size is atleast large enough to hold the
maximum segment size, everything will be happy.
I also haven't checked any code, but for ethernet, I would think that
routers will either send out 1500 byte packets, or send out the packet
the size of the smallest announced accepted size. Now I'm sortof
curious which. Maybe the DECnet routing spec already would tell me...
I know that for point-to-point links, RSX sends packets larger than
the segment size if routing init says it can accept that, as long as
the sending side can build that size.
And that is also where VMS had the bug that I mentioned before.
Johnny
On 2024-07-16 03:12, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
Yes, 1746 has always struck me as an odd number,
but the macro
definitions which calculate it were puzzling enough that I didn't
want to assume. As I recall, there was commentary about fidgeting
withthe number which I also didn't think I understood at the time.
But this was over three years ago, so I could certainly be
misremembering.
Just as a reminder for any Tops-20 user: your ERROR.SYS file */will/*
fill up with class 5 events (buffer not large enough) if you don't
condition NTMAC to ignore this. At NMXFIL+1, you need to change
three lines, viz:
NMXFIL: $SFIL
$FIL(2,4) ;[T152] ;Event classes 2 through 4 known by
monitor
$NOFIL(5,5) ;[T152] ;HECnet overflows us with packet too
long
$FIL(6,6) ;[T152] ;Event class 6 known by monitor
$NOFIL(^D96,^D96) ;LCG specific events - turned off
IFN FTDEBUG <
$FIL(^D480,^D480) ;Accept event class 480 while debugging
$EFIL
On 7/15/24 9:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
I think that 1476 is a TOPS-20 private thing, the
data link buffer
sized used by the Ethernet driver. The NCP parameters control what
routing advertises (buffer size) and what NSP asks for as connection
segment size(segment buffer size).
paul
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To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se On Jul 15, 2024, at 8:49 PM, Johnny
Billquist<bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
Maybe someone can explain to me why it looks like the buffer size
reported by NCP is 576 when it sounds like you are both setting it
to 1476?
Johnny
On 2024-07-15 22:48, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
> These are the relevant lines from my SYSTEM:7-1-CONFIG.CMD:
> DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 1476
> DECNET MAXIMUM-ADDRESS 1023
> NODE VENTI2 2.522
> DECNET ROUTER-LEVEL-1
> ETHERNET 0 DECNET
> The maximum buffer size of 1476 is what I determined from a review
> of the relevant code in the monitor, which I commented about, some
> months back (but see below).
> This is the response from my local excutor (VENTI2::)
> OPR>ncp shOW exECUTOR chaRACTERISTICS
> Request # 280; Show Executor Node Characteristics Completed
> Executor Node = 2.522 (VENTI2)
> Identification = Venti Due Test System
> Management Version = 4.0.0
> CPU = DECSYSTEM1020
> Software Identification = Tops-20 7.1 PANDA II
> Loop Count = 1
> Loop Length = 127
> Loop With = Mixed
> Incoming Timer = 30
> Outgoing Timer = 60
> NSP Version = 4.0.0
> Maximum Links = 65535
> Delay Factor = 48
> Delay Weight = 10
> Inactivity Timer = 120
> Retransmit Factor = 10
> Routing Version = 2.0.0
> Type = Routing IV
> Routing Timer = 600
> Broadcast Routing Timer = 40
> Maximum Address = 1023
> Maximum Circuits = 20
> Maximum Cost = 100
> Maximum Hops = 16
> Maximum Visits = 20
> Maximum Broadcast Nonrouters = 64
> Maximum Broadcast Routers = 32
> Maximum Buffers = 80
> Buffer Size = 576
> Segment Buffer Size = 576
> The buffer size of 576 is what I remember being for non-Ethernet
> packets going over an IMP (which I'm sure is irrelevant because
> this was IP only). 1500 is the maximum for non-jumbo sized
> Ethernet frames, the 1476length being 24 bytes less. I plan to
> investigate that when I finally get into the guts of why ERROR.SYS
> fills up with class 5 errors from NTMANfor packets being too long.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On 7/14/24 5:04 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> Anders...
>>
>> On 2024-07-14 10:20, Anders Andersson wrote:
>>> "merlyn drforbin"<kropotkin(a)gmx.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Any way to set endpoint buffer size on panda decnet phase IV
>>> Could some of this (in SYSTEM:7-CONFIG.CMD) be what you are
>>> looking for?
>>> This is from RARITY (not PANDA, but DEC vanilla
>>> distribution,kind of), I'm
>>> not sure I have the correct values myself, been experimenting.
>>> ; DECnet parameters:
>>> ;default is DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 576
>>> decnet buffer-size 1476
>>> ;default is DECNET MAXIMUM-BUFFERS 80
>>> ;decnet maximum-buffers 40
>> Hmm. That do not seem to be the values currently used:
>>
>> .ncp tell rarity sho exec cha
>>
>> Node characteristics as of 14-JUL-24 10:58:22
>>
>> Executor node = 1.802 (RARITY)
>>
>> Identification = Rarity of Maneframe Six
>> Management version = 4.0.0
>> Software identification = DECnet-20 Version 4.0
>> Loop count = 1, Loop length = 127
>> Loop with = Mixed
>> Incoming timer = 30, Outgoing timer = 60
>> NSP version = 4.0.0
>> Maximum links = 65535, Delay factor = 48
>> Delay weight = 10, Inactivity timer = 120
>> Retransmit factor = 10, Routing version = 2.0.0
>> Type = Routing IV, Routing timer = 600
>> Broadcast routing timer = 40
>> Maximum address = 1023, Maximum circuits = 20
>> Maximum cost = 100, Maximum hops = 16
>> Maximum visits = 20, Maximum broadcast endnodes = 64
>> Maximum broadcast routers = 32, Maximum buffers = 80
>> Buffer size = 576, Segment buffer size = 576
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>> However, also to clarify some things. The segment buffer size
>> should probably stay at 576. This is basically the size of
>> packets used at theDECnet level, and I have some vague
>> recollection that nodes should use the same size, or DECnet might
>> fail. DECnet is not that clever about different sizes there.
>> The buffer size on the other hand can be larger (modulo VMS bug
>> that I mentioned a few days ago), but that would only be used by
>> link layer protocols, like the routing information packets that
>> are sent, for example.
>>
>> But if you are experimenting, please let me know if you figure
>> something out. Positive or negative. Always good with more
>> information.
>>
>> Johnny
>>
> _______________________________________________
> HECnet mailing list --hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
> To unsubscribe send an email tohecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email:bqt@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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4:43 a.m.
New subject: hii guys..tops20 expert needed
Ok guys..latest...
I changed the ethrnet buffer to the 1475 figure. As I thought that fixed the packet
oversize problem. This problem was a overflow at the link level alone.
Please find the following.
NCP>show know lines cha
NCP>
21:30:46 NCP
Request # 13; Show Known Lines Characteristics Completed
Line = NI-0-0
Receive Buffers = 6
Controller = Normal
Protocol = Ethernet
Hardware Address = F2 0B A4 95 D5 98
Receive buffer size = 1476
NCP>
21:30:24 NCP
Request # 12; Show Executor Node Characteristics Completed
Executor Node = 41.403 (TOPS20)
Identification = DECnet-20 Version 4.0
Management Version = 4.0.0
Loop Count = 1
Loop Length = 127
Loop With = Mixed
Incoming Timer = 30
Outgoing Timer = 60
NSP Version = 4.0.0
Maximum Links = 65535
Delay Factor = 48
Delay Weight = 10
Inactivity Timer = 120
Retransmit Factor = 10
Routing Version = 2.0.0
Type = Routing IV
Routing Timer = 600
Broadcast Routing Timer = 40
Maximum Address = 1023
Maximum Circuits = 20
Maximum Cost = 100
Maximum Hops = 16
Maximum Visits = 20
Maximum Broadcast Nonrouters = 64
Maximum Broadcast Routers = 32
Maximum Buffers = 80
Buffer Size = 576
Segment Buffer Size = 576
NCP>
Event type 4.14, Node reachability change
Occurred 02-Jul-37 21:23:02.7 on node 41.401 (RST10)
Node address 41.208 (PI5)
Status = Reachable
Event type 4.14, Node reachability change
Occurred 02-Jul-37 21:23:02.7 on node 41.401 (RST10)
Node address 41.250 (4CAST)
Status = Reachable
Event type 34.0, Object spawned
Occurred 02-Jul-37 21:23:17.8 on node 41.401 (RST10)
Source node = 41.28 (28NH)
Source process = 0 NETMAPPER
Destination process = 19
User = 200,200
Password = ...
Request # 8; Set Node Completed
OPR>exit
$i decnet
Local DECNET node: TOPS20. Nodes reachable: 2.
Accessible DECNET nodes are: RST10 TOPS20
$
$
$
$dir
TOPS20:<OPERATOR>
FIX.T20.1
LOGIN.CMD.1
MAIL.TXT.1;P
NETSRV.LOG.1
USAG20.CHG.5
USAGE.OUT.5
Total of 202 pages in 6 files
$rename fix.t02 fix.t21
?No such file type - "fix.t02"
$dir
TOPS20:<OPERATOR>
FIX.T20.1
LOGIN.CMD.1
MAIL.TXT.1;P
NETSRV.LOG.1
USAG20.CHG.5
USAGE.OUT.5
Total of 202 pages in 6 files
$rename fix.t20 fix.t21
FIX.T20.1 => FIX.T21.1 [OK]
$r nft
NFT>copy MIM::HECNET:FIX.T20
Access information for node MIM::
User: guest
Account:
Password:
MIM::DU1:[DECNET]FIX.T20;282 => TOPS20:<OPERATOR>FIX.T20.1 [OK]
NFT>
This problem was coming from the fact that tops20 was reporting a max ethernet segment
size as 576 at the link level there was no way the entire decnet packet and the ethernet
overhead could fit in a 576 frame thus the 'packet oversize' fault.
The addition of the line
DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 1476
7-1-CONFIG.CMD in SYSTEM
I wanted to ask where these additional settings came from?
I cannot find reference to the above line anywhere.
Does anyone have the additional tops20 manual like decnet install manual etc or at least a
summary of settings?
Thank you all
DRFORBIN
solved the problem.
3:05 p.m.
New subject: hii guys..tops20 expert needed
On Jul 15, 2024, at 10:09 PM, Thomas DeBellis
<tommytimesharing(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, that's the other thing that bothered me, that NML was not reporting what is in
the config file
Apparently it is, as a line parameter -- a TOPS-10/20 OS specific parameter. The executor
parameters are not the same thing, the details of the definition are different and they
serve a different purpose. The trouble is in those details: the executor parameters are,
in effect, the routing data packet payload size (NSDU size) plus six, while the line
parameter is the datalink payload size (DSDU). Since routing data headers on Ethernet are
21 bytes rather than 6 bytes long, using the same value for both is a problem.
An additional bit of confusion comes from the fact that I seem to have forgotten to do
adjacency buffer size checking when forwarding packets, so RSTS forwarding to TOPS20 was
correctly complaining but PyDECnet was not. That made it look like RSTS was wrong, when
in fact it is right and PyDECnet is wrong.
paul
7:52 p.m.
New subject: hii guys..tops20 expert needed
I wanted to thank everyone helping me get my TOPS20 working.
I currently have rsts10, tops20, tops10 and vms on hecnet.
Again, does anyone have any doc available for tops20 beyond whats out on bitsavers?
Or at least the config file definitions, for example the DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 1476
definition would have immediately solved my problem had I know it.
Anyone post there entire 7-1-CONFIG.CMD etc?
17 Jul
17 Jul
11:25 p.m.
New subject: hii guys..tops20 expert needed
The weird thing about that is that Thomas said he had the following line
in SYSTEM:7-1-CONFIG.CMD:
DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 1476
That does not look like a line specific parameter (which line would that
be for then, by the way?).
Anyway, yes, it do indeed seem that this buffer size is shown on the
lines. Oh well. Probably another mystery that I'll never figure out. :-)
Johnny
On 2024-07-16 15:05, Paul Koning wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Jul 15, 2024, at 10:09 PM, Thomas DeBellis
<tommytimesharing(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, that's the other thing that bothered me, that NML was not reporting what is in
the config file
Apparently it is, as a line parameter -- a TOPS-10/20 OS specific parameter. The
executor parameters are not the same thing, the details of the definition are different
and they serve a different purpose. The trouble is in those details: the executor
parameters are, in effect, the routing data packet payload size (NSDU size) plus six,
while the line parameter is the datalink payload size (DSDU). Since routing data headers
on Ethernet are 21 bytes rather than 6 bytes long, using the same value for both is a
problem.
An additional bit of confusion comes from the fact that I seem to have forgotten to do
adjacency buffer size checking when forwarding packets, so RSTS forwarding to TOPS20 was
correctly complaining but PyDECnet was not. That made it look like RSTS was wrong, when
in fact it is right and PyDECnet is wrong.
paul
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18 Jul
18 Jul
3:02 p.m.
New subject: hii guys..tops20 expert needed
On Jul 17, 2024, at 5:25 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
The weird thing about that is that Thomas said he had the following line in
SYSTEM:7-1-CONFIG.CMD:
DECNET BUFFER-SIZE 1476
That does not look like a line specific parameter (which line would that be for then, by
the way?).
Anyway, yes, it do indeed seem that this buffer size is shown on the lines. Oh well.
Probably another mystery that I'll never figure out. :-)
It's a TOPS-20 system parameter that apparently controls the Ethernet buffer size.
paul
156
days inactive
161
days old
14 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Anders Andersson -
Johnny Billquist -
kropotkin -
merlyn drforbin
-
Paul Koning -
Thomas DeBellis