On Apr 12, 2021, at 1:15 PM, Steve Davidson <steve at davidson.net> wrote: RT emulation under RSTS should work as well. If I can find some time I can fix my router and give you an account on PLUTO:: if that helps. -Steve SF:IP2 > On Apr 12, 2021, at 13:12, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote: > > ? > Thanks ? I don?t have RT11 at the moment; I have the RSX AME on VMS. I guess I could set up RT11 on some simh, but I was looking for a shortcut. > > Bob > > > From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Steve Davidson > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 10:04 AM > To: hecnet at update.uu.se > Subject: Re: [HECnet] Task Buillder question > > Bob, > > You are looking for LDA format. TKB might be able to do it but LINK (RT-11) certainly can. > > -Steve > > SF:IP2 > > > On Apr 12, 2021, at 12:57, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote: > > ? > Ok, this is a bit of an off the wall question, but ? can Task Builder (aka TKB) build paper tape images in absolute loader format? Can anybody clue me in as to the magic switch(es) to do this? > > Thanks, > Bob

On Apr 12, 2021, at 1:54 PM, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote: Thanks for the suggestions, guys, but I don't think that'll help. What I want to do is to rebuild (after making some changes) Joe Lang's copy of DEC's paper tape BASIC-11 http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/papertapeimages/DEC-11-LPTBA-B-PB_d… There are three MACRO-11 source files that have to be separately assembled and then linked into an absolute memory image. Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Paul Koning Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 10:43 AM To: hecnet at update.uu.se Subject: Re: [HECnet] Task Buillder question I don't remember the format of a task file, but object files in RSX and RT11 are nearly identical. The difference is that the RT11 ones are "formatted binary", the same structure as abs loader data, where records start with a byte of 1 followed by a byte of 0, then load address and length (or the other way around). RSX uses RMS variable length records instead, so you get a record containing a load address and data, but the length is handled by RMS. The conversion between the two is pretty trivial. PIP on RSTS can do this, for example RSX to RT11 would be "pip foo.lda/fb=foo.obj". I have somewhere a Python script that turns an a.out format executable (from the GNU linker) into an abs loader file. Converting that to handle task files is likely to be pretty easy. paul

Looking through the DECUS library, I see there is a tool (maybe more) to convert a .TSK image into absolute loader format. So this already exist. Bob, you can ping me directly, and I can point you to it. I have it on Mim, but it's inside a disk image, and there might be multiple versions, so I should research this a little, if you haven't. ?Johnny On 2021-04-12 20:02, Paul Koning wrote:

On Apr 12, 2021, at 14:04, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote: ?Ok, so you don't need overlays or any of that funny stuff. Are there any macros in there? You could just use the paper tape tools (pal11 and link11) to do the job. Or the assembler and linker in DOS-11. Alternatively, there's an assembler and linker that runs on Linux, I forgot who wrote it, it was mentioned not too long ago. In any case, this would be a trivial link, so converting the resulting executable image file to an equivalent LDA file would be easy enough. paul

On Apr 12, 2021, at 14:59, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: ?That won't help. It's not about addressing. It's about the actual format of the output file. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

On closer inspection the environment in the zip container is already setup for standalone operation under SimH. Refer to ?basic.ini? -Steve Davidson SF:iP1 > On Apr 12, 2021, at 15:49, Steve Davidson <steve at davidson.net> wrote: > > ?Addressing is clearly only part of it. Macros will have you be created to account for any system dependencies. This could be a fun project for someone who has some extra time. > > -Steve Davidson > > SF:iP1 > >> On Apr 12, 2021, at 14:59, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: >> >> ?That won't help. It's not about addressing. It's about the actual format of the output file. >> >> Johnny >> >>>> On 2021-04-12 20:35, Steve Davidson wrote: >>> Or... >>> Convert the absolute memory references to relative and build on RSX. >>> -Steve Davidson >>> SF:iP1 >>>>> On Apr 12, 2021, at 14:29, Steve Davidson <steve at davidson.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> ?Bob, >>>> >>>> This was built with paper-tape-11 aka PTS or paper tape system. Use either RT-11 or DOS/BATCH-11 to build it. >>>> >>>> -Steve Davidson >>>> >>>> SF:iP1 >>>> >>>>> On Apr 12, 2021, at 14:04, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ?Ok, so you don't need overlays or any of that funny stuff. Are there any macros in there? You could just use the paper tape tools (pal11 and link11) to do the job. Or the assembler and linker in DOS-11. >>>>> >>>>> Alternatively, there's an assembler and linker that runs on Linux, I forgot who wrote it, it was mentioned not too long ago. >>>>> >>>>> In any case, this would be a trivial link, so converting the resulting executable image file to an equivalent LDA file would be easy enough. >>>>> >>>>> paul >>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 12, 2021, at 1:54 PM, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for the suggestions, guys, but I don't think that'll help. >>>>>> >>>>>> What I want to do is to rebuild (after making some changes) Joe Lang's copy of DEC's paper tape BASIC-11 >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/papertapeimages/DEC-11-LPTBA-B-PB_d… >>>>>> >>>>>> There are three MACRO-11 source files that have to be separately assembled and then linked into an absolute memory image. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Paul Koning >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 10:43 AM >>>>>> To: hecnet at update.uu.se >>>>>> Subject: Re: [HECnet] Task Buillder question >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't remember the format of a task file, but object files in RSX and RT11 are nearly identical. The difference is that the RT11 ones are "formatted binary", the same structure as abs loader data, where records start with a byte of 1 followed by a byte of 0, then load address and length (or the other way around). RSX uses RMS variable length records instead, so you get a record containing a load address and data, but the length is handled by RMS. The conversion between the two is pretty trivial. >>>>>> >>>>>> PIP on RSTS can do this, for example RSX to RT11 would be "pip foo.lda/fb=foo.obj". >>>>>> >>>>>> I have somewhere a Python script that turns an a.out format executable (from the GNU linker) into an abs loader file. Converting that to handle task files is likely to be pretty easy. >>>>>> >>>>>> paul >>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 2021, at 1:15 PM, Steve Davidson <steve at davidson.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> RT emulation under RSTS should work as well. If I can find some time I can fix my router and give you an account on PLUTO:: if that helps. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Steve >>>>>>> >>>>>>> SF:IP2 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 2021, at 13:12, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ? >>>>>>>> Thanks ? I don?t have RT11 at the moment; I have the RSX AME on VMS. I guess I could set up RT11 on some simh, but I was looking for a shortcut. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Steve Davidson >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 10:04 AM >>>>>>>> To: hecnet at update.uu.se >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [HECnet] Task Buillder question >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bob, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You are looking for LDA format. TKB might be able to do it but LINK (RT-11) certainly can. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -Steve >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> SF:IP2 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 12, 2021, at 12:57, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ? >>>>>>>> Ok, this is a bit of an off the wall question, but ? can Task Builder (aka TKB) build paper tape images in absolute loader format? Can anybody clue me in as to the magic switch(es) to do this? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Bob >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >> >> -- >> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >> || on a psychedelic trip >> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

On Apr 12, 2021, at 16:17, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote: ? BTW, SimH can load abs loader format files directly (with the "load" command). So you don't even need to feed it the abs loader to execute such programs. paul

Part 2 I wrote conditional macros to allow me to run the ?OS? under RT-11 as an application. This was the fastest way to debug logic errors. It didn?t do much for the hardware interfaces but it was better than debugging on the actual HW platform. -Steve Davidson SF:iP1 > On Apr 12, 2021, at 16:43, Steve Davidson <steve at davidson.net> wrote: > > ?When I was a DEC OEM we used RT-11 and LDA format to load our custom ?OS?. It was my first real project as a system developer. Made good money in those days... ? > > -Steve Davidson > > SF:iP1 > >> On Apr 12, 2021, at 16:17, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote: >> >> ? >> >>>> On Apr 12, 2021, at 4:09 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: >>> >>> Right. >>> When someone talks about the paper tape system, and absolute loader format, it is without any operating system underneath. It's just bare metal. And the absolute loader is just a simple format that can be read by a small program that you have in memory. It's only purpose is to read in a paper tape with the binary on it, and start that. >>> >>> So there are no system dependecies, there are no addressing issues. It's just actual bytes that will be written to specific addresses in memory, and then a jump to an address, and off it goes. >>> >>> Johnny >> >> BTW, SimH can load abs loader format files directly (with the "load" command). So you don't even need to feed it the abs loader to execute such programs. >> >> paul >> >>

On Apr 12, 2021, at 18:09, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote: ? That's true but unfortunately Joe built it for an 11/05 because he wanted to duplicate the original DEC image. That version uses 177776 to alter the PSW and in particular the CPU priority level, and that doesn't work on any of the LSI PDP-11s. Yes, I know - use MTPS/MFPS instead, and Joe even provided a conditional assembly option for just this eventuality. Gotta re-assemble to use it though. Bob

On Apr 12, 2021, at 2:01 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: On 2021-04-12 18:57, Robert Armstrong wrote: I haven't fully explored this, but MAC, according to documentation, can produce absolute format output. For this, TKB would then not be involved. Which also means it can't be from multiple object modules. See /EN:ABS (HELP MAC SW EN), or maybe also the .ENABLE directive can turn this on. If you need an absolute file based on the result from TKB, I guess you are going to have to have some tool that post process the TKB task file. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

On Apr 12, 2021, at 2:10 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: From the RSX help page: ABS Disabled Produces absolute binary output. AMA Disabled Changes all relative addresses (address mode 67) to be assembled as absolute addresses (address mode 37). Suspect you're thinking of AMA. Johnny On 2021-04-12 20:04, Paul Koning wrote: -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol