27 Mar
2020
27 Mar
'20
12:15 a.m.
Still looking for things to do at home here, so I've set up another PDP-11
with RT11 this time. I have v5.7 up and running just fine, but I'd really
like to network it and I can't find a copy of DECnet-RT anywhere. Can
someone send me a pointer?
BTW, was DECnet-RT ever upgraded to Phase IV or did it stop with III?
Yes, I know there's a TCP/IP for RT11. I might actually end up using that
instead, but I'd prefer to have it on HECnet if I can.
Thanks,
Bob
27 Mar
27 Mar
12:20 a.m.
As far as I know DECnet RT was serial port only...? I don't think they
ever upgraded it.? I used it with DEC's Easynet by dialing in at 2400
baud to a VAX/VMS 11/750 and the fact is -- performance made me switch
to just using Kermit.? I did leave DEC in '86 so it might have changed.
On 3/26/20 7:15 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
? Still looking for things to do at home here, so I?ve set up another
PDP-11 with RT11 this time.? I have v5.7 up and running just fine, but
I?d really like to network it and I can?t find a copy of DECnet-RT
anywhere.? Can someone send me a pointer?
? BTW, was DECnet-RT ever upgraded to Phase IV or did it stop with III?
? Yes, I know there?s a TCP/IP for RT11.? I might actually end up
using that instead, but I?d prefer to have it on HECnet if I can.
Thanks,
Bob
--
Digital had it then. Don't you wish you could buy it now!
pechter-at-gmail.com http://xkcd.com/705/
1:18 a.m.
IIRC, it?s only Phase II, I know it doesn?t support Ethernet. More importantly I?ve been
searching for a copy for over 20 years, and have yet to have any success. I?ve heard
rumors of a couple people that might have it, but nothing has ever turned up. I also
wonder if it will work on RT-11 V5.7.
The TCP/IP package for RT-11 works very well.
Zane
On Mar 26, 2020, at 4:20 PM, William Pechter
<pechter at gmail.com> wrote:
As far as I know DECnet RT was serial port only... I don't think they ever upgraded
it. I used it with DEC's Easynet by dialing in at 2400 baud to a VAX/VMS 11/750 and
the fact is -- performance made me switch to just using Kermit. I did leave DEC in
'86 so it might have changed.
On 3/26/20 7:15 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Still looking for things to do at home here, so I?ve set up another PDP-11 with RT11
this time. I have v5.7 up and running just fine, but I?d really like to network it and I
can?t find a copy of DECnet-RT anywhere. Can someone send me a pointer?
BTW, was DECnet-RT ever upgraded to Phase IV or did it stop with III?
Yes, I know there?s a TCP/IP for RT11. I might actually end up using that instead, but
I?d prefer to have it on HECnet if I can.
Thanks,
Bob
--
Digital had it then. Don't you wish you could buy it now!
pechter-at-gmail.com http://xkcd.com/705/
2:42 a.m.
IIRC, it's only Phase II, I know it doesn't
support Ethernet.
DECnet-RT 1.0 was Phase II, but I remember seeing an SPD for DECnet-RT 2.1 and I'm
pretty sure it was Phase III. You're still stuck with a serial DDCMP connection, but
at least it could interoperate with Phase IV nodes.
But if nobody has a copy, it's moot.
The TCP/IP package for RT-11 works very well.
I've heard that, but it just seems wrong to use TCP/IP instead of DECnet somehow...
Is the latest copy of the TCP/IP package this one?
https://shop-pdp.net/rthtml/tcpip.php
Bob
8:59 a.m.
I have never seen it either, but I would say it has to be at least phase
III, since the latest DECnet release for RSX do have notes about
compatibility with DECnet-RT. And RSX is phase IV, and that phase IV
implementation does not talk at all to phase II nodes.
Johnny
On 2020-03-27 01:18, Zane Healy wrote:
IIRC, it?s only Phase II, I know it doesn?t support
Ethernet. More importantly I?ve been searching for a copy for over 20 years, and have yet
to have any success. I?ve heard rumors of a couple people that might have it, but nothing
has ever turned up. I also wonder if it will work on RT-11 V5.7.
The TCP/IP package for RT-11 works very well.
Zane
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Mar 26, 2020, at 4:20 PM, William Pechter
<pechter at gmail.com> wrote:
As far as I know DECnet RT was serial port only... I don't think they ever upgraded
it. I used it with DEC's Easynet by dialing in at 2400 baud to a VAX/VMS 11/750 and
the fact is -- performance made me switch to just using Kermit. I did leave DEC in
'86 so it might have changed.
On 3/26/20 7:15 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Still looking for things to do at home here, so I?ve set up another PDP-11 with RT11
this time. I have v5.7 up and running just fine, but I?d really like to network it and I
can?t find a copy of DECnet-RT anywhere. Can someone send me a pointer?
BTW, was DECnet-RT ever upgraded to Phase IV or did it stop with III?
Yes, I know there?s a TCP/IP for RT11. I might actually end up using that instead,
but I?d prefer to have it on HECnet if I can.
Thanks,
Bob
--
Digital had it then. Don't you wish you could buy it now!
pechter-at-gmail.com http://xkcd.com/705/
2:44 p.m.
On Mar 27, 2020, at 3:59 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
I have never seen it either, but I would say it has to be at least phase III, since the
latest DECnet release for RSX do have notes about compatibility with DECnet-RT. And RSX is
phase IV, and that phase IV implementation does not talk at all to phase II nodes.
Johnny
That rings a bell. I distinctly remember DECnet/RT being described as "end node
only". That's a Phase III term, it doesn't mean anything for a Phase II
node.
As a Phase III node it would be DDCMP only. I don't remember if it supports any
synchronous interfaces, and whether DMC-11 support was included. If it had DDCMP in
software (which you'd need for async ports) then allowing that to talk to sync
interfaces like the DUP-11 would not be a big stretch.
paul
4:47 p.m.
Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
As a Phase III node it would be DDCMP only ...
I don't remember if it supports any synchronous interfaces ...
There are no device drivers included with RT11 for anything that I
recognize as a synchronous interface, so I would assume it only supported a
standard asynchronous serial port.
But that's another curious thing - there ARE drivers included with RT11
for the DEUNA, DEQNA and the Pro series Ethernet NI. What was the point of
those? Did DEC think people would write their own networking software?
Bob
5:19 p.m.
The folks did write their own stuff. IIRC, Megan Gentry did an ethernet file xfer program
for RT11. Under the Real Time single user system networks were thought of as a multiuser
thing.
Remember, most RT11 stuff was not using XM monitors and ran on stuff like 11/34s not
11/73s.
Bill
Sent from pechter at gmail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com>
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Sent: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 11:47
Subject: RE: [HECnet] DECnet-RT?
Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
As a Phase III node it would be DDCMP only ...
I don't remember if it supports any synchronous interfaces ...
There are no device drivers included with RT11 for anything that I
recognize as a synchronous interface, so I would assume it only supported a
standard asynchronous serial port.
But that's another curious thing - there ARE drivers included with RT11
for the DEUNA, DEQNA and the Pro series Ethernet NI. What was the point of
those? Did DEC think people would write their own networking software?
Bob
5:38 p.m.
On 3/27/20 11:47 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
But that's another curious thing - there ARE
drivers included with RT11
for the DEUNA, DEQNA and the Pro series Ethernet NI. What was the point of
those? Did DEC think people would write their own networking software?
I know of one project that did. But it wasn't a matter of "adding
networking capability to the OS". An Ethernet interface is nearly
always thought of as that, of course, but that doesn't have to be the
case. Fast application-level communication between nodes without going
through the OS (other than the device driver) can be handy for
low-latency communications.
But then again, I only saw it once. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
6:01 p.m.
On Mar 27, 2020, at 11:47 AM, Robert Armstrong <bob
at jfcl.com> wrote:
On RT-11? I would assume yes. The customer base for that OS is people who need a very
light weight very fast OS, and for whom tailoring stuff or writing drivers or other custom
software was all in a normal day's work.
https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102673057
Some networking applications were pretty strange. There's a famous report (I have a
paper copy) describing the use of a DEUNA -- specifically, the TDR feature -- in nuclear
bomb testing. The idea is to use it to observe the rapid shortening of an Ethernet coax
hanging down the test pit shaft. And while the document doesn't mention the OS used,
this is the sort of high speed real time stuff RT-11 was ideal for.
paul
Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
wrote:
As a Phase III node it would be DDCMP only ...
I don't remember if it supports any synchronous interfaces ...
There are no device drivers included with RT11 for anything that I
recognize as a synchronous interface, so I would assume it only supported a
standard asynchronous serial port.
But that's another curious thing - there ARE drivers included with RT11
for the DEUNA, DEQNA and the Pro series Ethernet NI. What was the point of
those? Did DEC think people would write their own networking software? 
10:21 p.m.
On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 11:47 AM Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
But that's another curious thing - there ARE
drivers included with RT11
for the DEUNA, DEQNA and the Pro series Ethernet NI. What was the point of
those? Did DEC think people would write their own networking software?
Absolutely. The project was completed after I graduated, but I helped to
design and develop the protocol for it. CMU's Mellon Institute built a
system originally for the Pittsburgh Press, to automate their newspaper
distribution system (they had had huge problems with theft). It was so
successful, it got used in about a number of large papers in the US and
Canada like the Philly Inquirer, Globe here in Boston, Chicago Sun-Times,
one in Montreal and maybe Quebec (I think it may have been as many at 25
installations). The system went through a couple of HW and SW
generations/refinements.
The original version for the Press had each station had an LSI-11 running
RT-11 doing some realtime control of the sorters and bundles - that sent
messages back to another mini over the network which was doing overall
control/scheduling but did not have to be RT. Originally, it used a
custom network solution over a CMU designed fiber-board, but eventually,
DEC released the ethernet stuff which was a lot cheaper. BTW: The original
worry at the time we were designing it was if something like ethernet could
work on a factory floor due to electrical noise *et al*. CMU was running
3M Xerox ethernet at the time to the campus-wide Vaxen and PDP-11s. But
getting the Xerox boards and transceivers was not easy.
The protocol was custom and similar to TCP without IP under the covers
(actually we borrowed from some earlier TCP work we did from the CMU front
end, but did have IP in it -- IIRC Don Gregg and Tron McConnell did the
heavy lifting in the end - Tron on the HW and Don on the SW). I'm pretty
sure that at one point the Mellon folks refined it later to swap out the
LSI's and switched to Multibus based systems for most of the later installs
in the early 1980s. I should ask him, but I think Tron ended up using a
Stanford University Network (a.k.a. SUN) board. But when we spec'ed it in
78 and did the original prototype work in the lab, it was on LSIs.
Much of the user-level app code was written in DEC FORTRAN, although the
system support stuff was assembler and C. But, IIRC, it was a customer
requirement as the Press did not want to use that funky C thing -- they
knew they could get FORTRAN programmers for later maintenance.
28 Mar
28 Mar
12:22 a.m.
CMU's Mellon Institute built a system originally
for the Pittsburgh Press
FWIW, I worked for DEC in the Indianapolis Field Application Center, and we built and
wrote software for process automation and factory management systems under contract to
GM/Delco. At the time the Delco semiconductor FAB in Kokomo IN had the largest class 100
clean room in the world, even bigger than anything here in Silicon Valley. Interesting
place ? it was basically a five story building, with two stories underground and three
above ground. Only the ground floor was usable work space ? the remaining floors were
filled up with air handling machinery.
Anyway, the factory automation was done with LSI-11/23+s and VAX=11/780s and 8600s. The
VAXes ran VMS of course, and the =11s were diskless and ran RSX=11S downloaded from the
VAXes. All communication was done with DECnet task-to-task, programmed explicitly using
$QIOs in the software. The -11 stuff was mostly written in MACRO-11, and the VAX code was
written in PL/I (yes, PL/I ? it was the customer?s requirement. Don?t think I ever knew
why).
About the 11s being diskless ? that wasn?t a cost issue, although keeping all the packs
updated would have been an administration headache. In most of the factory Delco was
afraid that dirt, grime and gunk would get into the drives and crash them. In the FAB,
however, Delco was worried that a disk crash would let oxide particles escape and those
would contaminate their clean room. Either way, disk drives were a no-no.
Bob
12:47 a.m.
Hello!
This is is spooky. We before Compaq glommed DEC, or even HP glomming
the Compaq that erupted after doing that, DEC and Apple threw an
amazing joint trade show here in Manhattan on the subject of
networking together the Mac family of machines and VAXen. They
remembered to name the machines, one VAX wore the name VAX Masterson.
And one vendor was Allen Bradley who had someone there promoting
factory level automation for both the VAX and the PDP-11.
I found out towards the end of the show that it was indeed a variety
of DECNet gluing everyone together.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 7:22 PM Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
CMU's Mellon Institute built a system
originally for the Pittsburgh Press
FWIW, I worked for DEC in the Indianapolis Field Application Center, and we built and
wrote software for process automation and factory management systems under contract to
GM/Delco. At the time the Delco semiconductor FAB in Kokomo IN had the largest class 100
clean room in the world, even bigger than anything here in Silicon Valley. Interesting
place ? it was basically a five story building, with two stories underground and three
above ground. Only the ground floor was usable work space ? the remaining floors were
filled up with air handling machinery.
Anyway, the factory automation was done with LSI-11/23+s and VAX=11/780s and 8600s.
The VAXes ran VMS of course, and the =11s were diskless and ran RSX=11S downloaded from
the VAXes. All communication was done with DECnet task-to-task, programmed explicitly
using $QIOs in the software. The -11 stuff was mostly written in MACRO-11, and the VAX
code was written in PL/I (yes, PL/I ? it was the customer?s requirement. Don?t think I
ever knew why).
About the 11s being diskless ? that wasn?t a cost issue, although keeping all the packs
updated would have been an administration headache. In most of the factory Delco was
afraid that dirt, grime and gunk would get into the drives and crash them. In the FAB,
however, Delco was worried that a disk crash would let oxide particles escape and those
would contaminate their clean room. Either way, disk drives were a no-no.
Bob
12:50 a.m.
On 2020-03-27 16:47, Robert Armstrong wrote:
That don't necessarily mean much. With RSX, DECnet has its own device
drivers.
Paul Koning
<paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
As a Phase III node it would be DDCMP only ...
I don't remember if it supports any synchronous interfaces ...
There are no device drivers included with RT11 for anything that I
recognize as a synchronous interface, so I would assume it only supported a
standard asynchronous serial port. But that's another curious thing - there ARE
drivers included with RT11
for the DEUNA, DEQNA and the Pro series Ethernet NI. What was the point of
those? Did DEC think people would write their own networking software?
Yes, I believe so. That is also the case for the Unibus ethernet in RSX,
for which there is also a device driver provided in RSX itself. (If you
use DECnet, it does not use that device driver.)
Megan Gentry wrote a file transfer program under RT-11 which
communicates over ethernet. Should not be too hard to find, and is an
example of a normal user level program using these device drivers.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
1:29 a.m.
On Mar 27, 2020, at 7:50 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2020-03-27 16:47, Robert Armstrong wrote:
That don't necessarily mean much. With RSX, DECnet has its own device drivers.
I should have remembered that. No idea if that applies to RT-11. RSTS is different: it
uses the standard device drivers, but with some additional I/O request function codes.
DMC use direct by applications was always supported. I'm not sure if application use
of Ethernet was supported, or whether it works (and if not, how hard that would be to
fix).
paul
Paul
Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
As a Phase III node it would be DDCMP only ...
I don't remember if it supports any synchronous interfaces ...
There are no
device drivers included with RT11 for anything that I
recognize as a synchronous interface, so I would assume it only supported a
standard asynchronous serial port.
1:46 a.m.
On 2020-03-28 01:29, Paul Koning wrote:
One "annoying" thing with DECnet under RSX is that this means you must
have a separate controller for serial ports if you want to talk DECnet
on any, and use others as normal terminal ports, since they cannot
co-exist on the same controller. Either the DECnet device driver manages
the controller, or the TTDRV device driver manages it. All ports goes to
one usecase or the other. Mixing is not possible...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Mar 27, 2020, at 7:50 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2020-03-27 16:47, Robert Armstrong wrote:
That don't necessarily mean much. With RSX, DECnet has its own device drivers.
I should have remembered that. No idea if that applies to RT-11. RSTS is different: it
uses the standard device drivers, but with some additional I/O request function codes.
DMC use direct by applications was always supported. I'm not sure if application use
of Ethernet was supported, or whether it works (and if not, how hard that would be to
fix). Paul
Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
As a Phase III node it would be DDCMP only ...
I don't remember if it supports any synchronous interfaces ...
There are no
device drivers included with RT11 for anything that I
recognize as a synchronous interface, so I would assume it only supported a
standard asynchronous serial port. 
3:58 a.m.
I THINK that DECnet RT had DMC-11 support in it. The Phase III support
was going in after I left the RT group.? It was certainly the right time
frame for it.
Chuck
On 3/27/2020 20:46, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2020-03-28 01:29, Paul Koning wrote:
One "annoying" thing with DECnet under RSX is that this means you must
have a separate controller for serial ports if you want to talk DECnet
on any, and use others as normal terminal ports, since they cannot
co-exist on the same controller. Either the DECnet device driver
manages the controller, or the TTDRV device driver manages it. All
ports goes to one usecase or the other. Mixing is not possible...
? Johnny
On Mar 27, 2020, at 7:50 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2020-03-27 16:47, Robert Armstrong wrote:
I should have remembered that.? No idea if that applies to RT-11.?
RSTS is different: it uses the standard device drivers, but with some
additional I/O request function codes.? DMC use direct by
applications was always supported.? I'm not sure if application use
of Ethernet was supported, or whether it works (and if not, how hard
that would be to fix). > Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
wrote:
> As a Phase III node it would be DDCMP only ...
> I don't remember if it supports any synchronous interfaces ...
?? There are no device drivers included with RT11 for anything that I
recognize as a synchronous interface, so I would assume it only
supported a
standard asynchronous serial port.
That don't necessarily mean much. With RSX, DECnet has its own
device drivers. 
5:04 a.m.
DECnet/RT v1.0 SPD :)
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/spd/10.72.01_7802_DECnet-RT.pdf
On 28-Mar-2020 09:58, Chuck Guldenschuh wrote:
I THINK that DECnet RT had DMC-11 support in it. The
Phase III support was going in after I left the RT group.? It was certainly the right time
frame for it.
Chuck
On 3/27/2020 20:46, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2020-03-28 01:29, Paul Koning wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 27, 2020, at 7:50 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se>
wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2020-03-27 16:47, Robert Armstrong wrote:
>>>>> Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>> As a Phase III node it would be DDCMP only ...
>>>>> I don't remember if it supports any synchronous interfaces ...
>>>> ?? There are no device drivers included with RT11 for anything that I
>>>> recognize as a synchronous interface, so I would assume it only supported
a
>>>> standard asynchronous serial port.
>>>
>>> That don't necessarily mean much. With RSX, DECnet has its own device
drivers.
>>
>> I should have remembered that.? No idea if that applies to RT-11. RSTS is
different: it uses the standard device drivers, but with some additional I/O request
function codes.? DMC use direct by applications was always supported.? I'm not sure if
>> application use of Ethernet was supported, or whether it works (and if not, how
hard that would be to fix).
>
> One "annoying" thing with DECnet under RSX is that this means you must have
a separate controller for serial ports if you want to talk DECnet on any, and use others
as normal terminal ports, since they cannot co-exist on the same controller. Either the
> DECnet device driver manages the controller, or the TTDRV device driver manages it.
All ports goes to one usecase or the other. Mixing is not possible...
>
> ? Johnny
>
29 Mar
29 Mar
5:56 p.m.
Hi Bob,
I have a similar thought. Is RT-11 V5.7 available on the internet
somewhere? I recall discussions about this some time ago, but I forget the
outcome.
Cheers
Peter Allan
On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 at 23:15, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
Still looking for things to do at home here, so I?ve
set up another
PDP-11 with RT11 this time. I have v5.7 up and running just fine, but I?d
really like to network it and I can?t find a copy of DECnet-RT anywhere.
Can someone send me a pointer?
BTW, was DECnet-RT ever upgraded to Phase IV or did it stop with III?
Yes, I know there?s a TCP/IP for RT11. I might actually end up using
that instead, but I?d prefer to have it on HECnet if I can.
Thanks,
Bob
8:04 p.m.
rsts.org has the RT-11 CD in its archive and v5 of the CD has 5.7.
On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 11:58 AM Peter Allan <petermallan at gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bob,
I have a similar thought. Is RT-11 V5.7 available on the internet
somewhere? I recall discussions about this some time ago, but I forget the
outcome.
Cheers
Peter Allan
On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 at 23:15, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
Still looking for things to do at home here, so
I?ve set up another
PDP-11 with RT11 this time. I have v5.7 up and running just fine, but I?d
really like to network it and I can?t find a copy of DECnet-RT anywhere.
Can someone send me a pointer?
BTW, was DECnet-RT ever upgraded to Phase IV or did it stop with III?
Yes, I know there?s a TCP/IP for RT11. I might actually end up using
that instead, but I?d prefer to have it on HECnet if I can.
Thanks,
Bob
8:53 p.m.
Thanks.
I presume the file you are referring to is RT11DV50.ISO.zip. I couldn't
find any other file that looks like a suitable candidate.
Peter Allan
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 at 19:05, Ray Jewhurst <raywjewhurst at gmail.com> wrote:
rsts.org has the RT-11 CD in its archive and v5 of the
CD has 5.7.
On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 11:58 AM Peter Allan <petermallan at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
> I have a similar thought. Is RT-11 V5.7 available on the internet
> somewhere? I recall discussions about this some time ago, but I forget the
> outcome.
>
> Cheers
>
> Peter Allan
>
> On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 at 23:15, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
>
>> Still looking for things to do at home here, so I?ve set up another
>> PDP-11 with RT11 this time. I have v5.7 up and running just fine, but I?d
>> really like to network it and I can?t find a copy of DECnet-RT anywhere.
>> Can someone send me a pointer?
>>
>>
>>
>> BTW, was DECnet-RT ever upgraded to Phase IV or did it stop with III?
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, I know there?s a TCP/IP for RT11. I might actually end up using
>> that instead, but I?d prefer to have it on HECnet if I can.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bob
>>
>
31 Mar
31 Mar
1:25 p.m.
Thanks to Ray, I now have the v1 and v5 of the RT-11 CD (well, the ISO file
of it). However, I am confused by the nature of the virtual CD.
I have extracted the file RTV5RL.03 and started an installation using it. I
have not continued with the installation, but it looks like it should
work.So far,so good.
However, the file README.1st refers to there being several RT11
partitions on the CD and that some of these are bootable. I have never
come across multiple partitions on a CD and I don't know how to access
them. The SIMH ATTACH command appears to only connect to files, not
partitions on a disk.
So I am stuck. Any suggestions?
Peter Allan
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 at 19:05, Ray Jewhurst <raywjewhurst at gmail.com> wrote:
rsts.org has the RT-11 CD in its archive and v5 of the
CD has 5.7.
On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 11:58 AM Peter Allan <petermallan at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
> I have a similar thought. Is RT-11 V5.7 available on the internet
> somewhere? I recall discussions about this some time ago, but I forget the
> outcome.
>
> Cheers
>
> Peter Allan
>
> On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 at 23:15, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
>
>> Still looking for things to do at home here, so I?ve set up another
>> PDP-11 with RT11 this time. I have v5.7 up and running just fine, but I?d
>> really like to network it and I can?t find a copy of DECnet-RT anywhere.
>> Can someone send me a pointer?
>>
>>
>>
>> BTW, was DECnet-RT ever upgraded to Phase IV or did it stop with III?
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, I know there?s a TCP/IP for RT11. I might actually end up using
>> that instead, but I?d prefer to have it on HECnet if I can.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bob
>>
>
4:02 p.m.
I haven?t used this particular CDROM so I can only speculate, but here are a couple of
things that might help ?
RT11 has an architectural limit of 32Mb per file system. Most disk drives, even way
back then, are bigger than that and have to be partitioned if you want to use all the
space. This is an RT11 thing, not a CDROM nor a PDP-11 nor a simh, feature.
I assume the first partition on the CDROM is bootable. You?d CDROM image to simh as a
rq device and boot it. Once RT11 is running, you can use the RT11 ?SET DUn UNIT=n PART=n?
command to assign the other DUn units to partitions on the same CDROM. Check the RT11
commands manual for a description of the SET DU command.
Hope that helps, It?s kind of vague, I know, but I haven?t used these CDROM images.
Bob
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Peter Allan
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 4:26 AM
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet-RT?
Thanks to Ray, I now have the v1 and v5 of the RT-11 CD (well, the ISO file of it).
However, I am confused by the nature of the virtual CD.
I have extracted the file RTV5RL.03 and started an installation using it. I have not
continued with the installation, but it looks like it should work.So far,so good.
However, the file README.1st refers to there being several RT11 partitions on the CD and
that some of these are bootable. I have never come across multiple partitions on a CD and
I don't know how to access them. The SIMH ATTACH command appears to only connect to
files, not partitions on a disk.
So I am stuck. Any suggestions?
Peter Allan
4:39 p.m.
Thanks Bob,
I thought I had done exactly that yesterday and it did not boot, but before
replying I thought I should try again, just to be sure, and it worked!
I now realise that I just attached the file to rq0, whereas yesterday I
used rq3, simply because I am used to doing that on my simulated VAX.
Thanks you your help. I should be able to make progress from here.
Peter
On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 at 15:01, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
I haven?t used this particular CDROM so I can only
speculate, but here
are a couple of things that might help ?
RT11 has an architectural limit of 32Mb per file system. Most disk
drives, even way back then, are bigger than that and have to be partitioned
if you want to use all the space. This is an RT11 thing, not a CDROM nor a
PDP-11 nor a simh, feature.
I assume the first partition on the CDROM is bootable. You?d CDROM
image to simh as a rq device and boot it. Once RT11 is running, you can
use the RT11 ?SET DUn UNIT=n PART=n? command to assign the other DUn units
to partitions on the same CDROM. Check the RT11 commands manual for a
description of the SET DU command.
Hope that helps, It?s kind of vague, I know, but I haven?t used these
CDROM images.
Bob
*From:* owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] *On
Behalf Of *Peter Allan
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2020 4:26 AM
*To:* hecnet at update.uu.se
*Subject:* Re: [HECnet] DECnet-RT?
Thanks to Ray, I now have the v1 and v5 of the RT-11 CD (well, the ISO
file of it). However, I am confused by the nature of the virtual CD.
I have extracted the file RTV5RL.03 and started an installation using it.
I have not continued with the installation, but it looks like it should
work.So far,so good.
However, the file README.1st refers to there being several RT11
partitions on the CD and that some of these are bootable. I have never
come across multiple partitions on a CD and I don't know how to access
them. The SIMH ATTACH command appears to only connect to files, not
partitions on a disk.
So I am stuck. Any suggestions?
Peter Allan
4:54 p.m.
One more tip ? the SET DU command actually modifies the driver image ON DISK. It does
not change the driver that?s already resident in memory. That means any SET DU changes
won?t take effect until you reboot. This is incredibly annoying, but some RT guy can
probably explain why it has to be like that.
Now that I mention it, I don?t know how this would work on a real CDROM since they are
read only. In the case of simh it?s not really a problem because you can easily make your
CDROM image writable.
Bob
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Peter Allan
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 7:40 AM
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet-RT?
Thanks Bob,
I thought I had done exactly that yesterday and it did not boot, but before replying I
thought I should try again, just to be sure, and it worked!
I now realise that I just attached the file to rq0, whereas yesterday I used rq3, simply
because I am used to doing that on my simulated VAX.
Thanks you your help. I should be able to make progress from here.
Peter
On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 at 15:01, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
I haven?t used this particular CDROM so I can only speculate, but here are a couple of
things that might help ?
RT11 has an architectural limit of 32Mb per file system. Most disk drives, even way
back then, are bigger than that and have to be partitioned if you want to use all the
space. This is an RT11 thing, not a CDROM nor a PDP-11 nor a simh, feature.
I assume the first partition on the CDROM is bootable. You?d CDROM image to simh as a
rq device and boot it. Once RT11 is running, you can use the RT11 ?SET DUn UNIT=n PART=n?
command to assign the other DUn units to partitions on the same CDROM. Check the RT11
commands manual for a description of the SET DU command.
Hope that helps, It?s kind of vague, I know, but I haven?t used these CDROM images.
Bob
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Peter Allan
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 4:26 AM
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet-RT?
Thanks to Ray, I now have the v1 and v5 of the RT-11 CD (well, the ISO file of it).
However, I am confused by the nature of the virtual CD.
I have extracted the file RTV5RL.03 and started an installation using it. I have not
continued with the installation, but it looks like it should work.So far,so good.
However, the file README.1st refers to there being several RT11 partitions on the CD and
that some of these are bootable. I have never come across multiple partitions on a CD and
I don't know how to access them. The SIMH ATTACH command appears to only connect to
files, not partitions on a disk.
So I am stuck. Any suggestions?
Peter Allan
7:11 p.m.
My PDP-11/73 is setup such that I can install RT-11 and RSX-11M+ from CD-R, and have, to
test it. RSTS/E is the tricky one. I couldn?t figure out how to install it from CD-R,
but I was able to install it from 4mm DAT, I mention this because to install DECnet/E, I
had to use an actual TK50 tape.
Zane
On Mar 31, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Robert Armstrong <bob
at jfcl.com> wrote:
One more tip ? the SET DU command actually modifies the driver image ON DISK. It does
not change the driver that?s already resident in memory. That means any SET DU changes
won?t take effect until you reboot. This is incredibly annoying, but some RT guy can
probably explain why it has to be like that.
Now that I mention it, I don?t know how this would work on a real CDROM since they are
read only. In the case of simh it?s not really a problem because you can easily make your
CDROM image writable.
Bob
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
[mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>] On
Behalf Of Peter Allan
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 7:40 AM
To: hecnet at update.uu.se <mailto:hecnet at update.uu.se>
Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet-RT?
Thanks Bob,
I thought I had done exactly that yesterday and it did not boot, but before replying I
thought I should try again, just to be sure, and it worked!
I now realise that I just attached the file to rq0, whereas yesterday I used rq3, simply
because I am used to doing that on my simulated VAX.
Thanks you your help. I should be able to make progress from here.
Peter
On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 at 15:01, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com <mailto:bob at
jfcl.com>> wrote:
> I haven?t used this particular CDROM so I can only speculate, but here are a couple
of things that might help ?
>
> RT11 has an architectural limit of 32Mb per file system. Most disk drives, even
way back then, are bigger than that and have to be partitioned if you want to use all the
space. This is an RT11 thing, not a CDROM nor a PDP-11 nor a simh, feature.
>
> I assume the first partition on the CDROM is bootable. You?d CDROM image to simh
as a rq device and boot it. Once RT11 is running, you can use the RT11 ?SET DUn UNIT=n
PART=n? command to assign the other DUn units to partitions on the same CDROM. Check the
RT11 commands manual for a description of the SET DU command.
>
> Hope that helps, It?s kind of vague, I know, but I haven?t used these CDROM
images.
>
> Bob
>
>
> From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
[mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>] On
Behalf Of Peter Allan
> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 4:26 AM
> To: hecnet at update.uu.se <mailto:hecnet at update.uu.se>
> Subject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet-RT?
>
> Thanks to Ray, I now have the v1 and v5 of the RT-11 CD (well, the ISO file of it).
However, I am confused by the nature of the virtual CD.
>
> I have extracted the file RTV5RL.03 and started an installation using it. I have not
continued with the installation, but it looks like it should work.So far,so good.
>
> However, the file README.1st refers to there being several RT11 partitions on the CD
and that some of these are bootable. I have never come across multiple partitions on a CD
and I don't know how to access them. The SIMH ATTACH command appears to only connect
to files, not partitions on a disk.
>
> So I am stuck. Any suggestions?
>
> Peter Allan
8:10 p.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
On 3/31/20 10:02 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
RT11 has an architectural limit of 32Mb per file
system. Most disk
drives, even way back then, are bigger than that and have to be
partitioned if you want to use all the space. This is an RT11 thing,
not a CDROM nor a PDP-11 nor a simh, feature.
So, about that. And please forgive the non-HECnet-related question.
Like everyone here, I've run RT-11 since the dawn of time. But I've
never run it on a disk that's larger than 32MB that is also not MSCP.
On a (real) system at the museum the other day, I noticed that RT-11
has a driver for the RM02/RM03, a 67MB drive. I went looking as I'm
bringing up a Fuji M2284K SMD drive, which (on an Emulex SC21 Unibus
controller) emulates two RM02s. If RT-11 cannot partition an RM02
because it's not MSCP, then why does it have a driver for it? Will it
just use the first 32MB?
Or (similarly to Ethernet) was it just there to use "raw"? I know of
one installation (on an 11/70) that used RM02s for raw storage of
digitized audio, no filesystem.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
8:19 p.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
Dave,
RT11's file system can only address 32MB of space. It only uses a
clustersize of "1" so it is limited. Partitioning the disk into
logical areas was the way the DU driver got around this.
You are correct that the RM drives are limited to the first physical
32MB of disk space. They did not use partitioning until the DU class
of drives came out. The reasoning was that the older drives would not
be around much longer anyway so why bother.
I wrote a driver (handler in RT11 speak) for the RP06 that eventually
made use of the partitioning scheme that the DU devices used. I got
the idea from Greg Adams (the original author of the DU driver/handler)
but alas, it is long long gone! Oh well...
-Steve
On Tue, 2020-03-31 at 14:10 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 3/31/20 10:02 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
RT11 has an architectural limit of 32Mb per file
system. Most disk
drives, even way back then, are bigger than that and have to be
partitioned if you want to use all the space. This is an RT11
thing,
not a CDROM nor a PDP-11 nor a simh, feature.
So, about that. And please forgive the non-HECnet-related
question.
Like everyone here, I've run RT-11 since the dawn of time. But
I've
never run it on a disk that's larger than 32MB that is also not MSCP.
On a (real) system at the museum the other day, I noticed that RT-
11
has a driver for the RM02/RM03, a 67MB drive. I went looking as I'm
bringing up a Fuji M2284K SMD drive, which (on an Emulex SC21 Unibus
controller) emulates two RM02s. If RT-11 cannot partition an RM02
because it's not MSCP, then why does it have a driver for it? Will
it
just use the first 32MB?
Or (similarly to Ethernet) was it just there to use "raw"? I know
of
one installation (on an 11/70) that used RM02s for raw storage of
digitized audio, no filesystem.
-Dave
8:24 p.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
On 3/31/20 2:19 PM, Steve Davidson wrote:
RT11's file system can only address 32MB of space.
It only uses a
clustersize of "1" so it is limited. Partitioning the disk into
logical areas was the way the DU driver got around this.
Yes, I'm aware of that.
You are correct that the RM drives are limited to the
first physical
32MB of disk space. They did not use partitioning until the DU class
of drives came out. The reasoning was that the older drives would not
be around much longer anyway so why bother.
Ok, that's understandable. So if I want to use RT-11 on this RM02,
just for hardware checkout and exercise purposes, I could format and
initialize it, but it would show up as a 32MB volume?
(I would just try it, but I'm not at the museum today)
I wrote a driver (handler in RT11 speak) for the RP06
that eventually
made use of the partitioning scheme that the DU devices used. I got
the idea from Greg Adams (the original author of the DU driver/handler)
but alas, it is long long gone! Oh well...
Wow ok, so it didn't get included in the RT11 distribution?
And you didn't take a copy home?! ;)
Wanna write it again? =)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
8:33 p.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
32MB really was ginormous back in the day; our labs had RT on RK05's,
which held about 2.5MB.? Way more than a DECtape.
That's a shame about the RT11 RP06 drive handler you wrote; that sounds
like a fine piece of code.? Since the RP06 held something near 176 MB,
how many partitions did you get?? 5?? 6?? What was the limit?
On 3/31/20 2:19 PM, Steve Davidson wrote:
Dave,
RT11's file system can only address 32MB of space. It only uses a
clustersize of "1" so it is limited. Partitioning the disk into
logical areas was the way the DU driver got around this.
You are correct that the RM drives are limited to the first physical
32MB of disk space. They did not use partitioning until the DU class
of drives came out. The reasoning was that the older drives would not
be around much longer anyway so why bother.
I wrote a driver (handler in RT11 speak) for the RP06 that eventually
made use of the partitioning scheme that the DU devices used. I got
the idea from Greg Adams (the original author of the DU driver/handler)
but alas, it is long long gone! Oh well...
-Steve
On Tue, 2020-03-31 at 14:10 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 3/31/20 10:02 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
>> RT11 has an architectural limit of 32Mb per file system. Most disk
>> drives, even way back then, are bigger than that and have to be
>> partitioned if you want to use all the space. This is an RT11
>> thing,
>> not a CDROM nor a PDP-11 nor a simh, feature.
> So, about that. And please forgive the non-HECnet-related
> question.
>
> Like everyone here, I've run RT-11 since the dawn of time. But
> I've
> never run it on a disk that's larger than 32MB that is also not MSCP.
>
> On a (real) system at the museum the other day, I noticed that RT-
> 11
> has a driver for the RM02/RM03, a 67MB drive. I went looking as I'm
> bringing up a Fuji M2284K SMD drive, which (on an Emulex SC21 Unibus
> controller) emulates two RM02s. If RT-11 cannot partition an RM02
> because it's not MSCP, then why does it have a driver for it? Will
> it
> just use the first 32MB?
>
> Or (similarly to Ethernet) was it just there to use "raw"? I know
> of
> one installation (on an 11/70) that used RM02s for raw storage of
> digitized audio, no filesystem.
>
> -Dave
>
9:02 p.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
Thomas DeBellis <tommytimesharing at gmail.com>
wrote:
32MB really was ginormous back in the day ...
By some standards RT11 was very forward thinking - OS/8 file systems were limited to
4095 OS/8 blocks. That's somewhere between 1.5 and 2Mb, depending on how you map 12
bit words onto 8 bit bytes. Partitioning was fixed and built into the OS/8 handlers.
Even the RK05J had two partitions; the RK05F pretended to be two RK05Js, so it had four.
RL01s had three partitions and RL02s had five. The mapping of partitions on the RL drives
was a bit asymmetrical to simplify the arithmetic the handler had to do. The RD handler
for DECmates could assign partitions dynamically, something like the RT11 DU driver. The
SBC6120 did the same thing with IDE/ATA drives.
Bob
9:14 p.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
On 3/31/20 2:33 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
32MB really was ginormous back in the day; our labs
had RT on RK05's,
which held about 2.5MB.? Way more than a DECtape.
When I started out, I had it on RL01s. But I suspect you have a few
years on me. ;) That was quite a bit of space at the time.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
10:24 p.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
On Mar 31, 2020, at 3:14 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire
at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 3/31/20 2:33 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
RT11SJ V2 fits (with BASIC and a few other items) on an single-platter RC11. Now *that*
is compact.
paul
32MB really was ginormous back in the day; our
labs had RT on RK05's,
which held about 2.5MB. Way more than a DECtape.
When I started out, I had it on RL01s. But I suspect you have a few
years on me. ;) That was quite a bit of space at the time.
10:40 p.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
Dave the TA11 (DEC proprietary Phillps Cassettes) were 150 ft long. I
just looked in my 1976 Peripherals Handbook -- Tape capacity of 92,000
bytes (not kbytes mind you). Two tapes per TA11; one for the OS and the
other the user. We had a couple at CMU on 11/20's running RT-11 in the EE
Digital lab for the RT system's course - in fact, the famous "110v
non-maskable interrupt" occurred on one of those machines
On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 3:14 PM Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 3/31/20 2:33 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
32MB really was ginormous back in the day; our
labs had RT on RK05's,
which held about 2.5MB. Way more than a DECtape.
When I started out, I had it on RL01s. But I suspect you have a few
years on me. ;) That was quite a bit of space at the time.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
11:01 p.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
Are you referring to DECtape II?? That was a cassette.
I was referring to the (nearly indestructible) earlier format: simply
called DECtape or DECtape I.? It's the same media as LINCtape (a small
reel), but with a very different controller. These could store a little
over 70K (36 bit) words.
On 3/31/20 4:40 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
Dave the TA11 (DEC proprietary Phillps Cassettes) were
150 ft long.?
?I just looked in my 1976 Peripherals Handbook -- Tape capacity of
92,000 bytes (not kbytes mind you).? ?Two tapes?per TA11; one for the
OS and the other the user.? ?We had a couple at CMU on 11/20's running
RT-11 in the EE Digital lab for the RT system's course - in fact, the
famous "110v non-maskable interrupt" occurred on one of those machines
On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 3:14 PM Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com
<mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com>> wrote:
On 3/31/20 2:33 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
32MB really was ginormous back in the day; our
labs had RT on
RK05's,
which held about 2.5MB.? Way more than a DECtape.
? When I started out, I had it on RL01s.? But I suspect you have a few
years on me. ;)? That was quite a bit of space at the time.
? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
11:04 p.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
He's talking about DECcassette, not DECtape. The DECcassette looks
like a standard Philips-style audio tape (of Walkman fame) but has a
notch in the top.
-Dave
On 3/31/20 5:01 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
Are you referring to DECtape II?? That was a
cassette.
I was referring to the (nearly indestructible) earlier format: simply
called DECtape or DECtape I.? It's the same media as LINCtape (a small
reel), but with a very different controller.? These could store a little
over 70K (36 bit) words.
On 3/31/20 4:40 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
> Dave the TA11 (DEC proprietary Phillps Cassettes) were 150 ft long.?
> ?I just looked in my 1976 Peripherals Handbook -- Tape capacity of
> 92,000 bytes (not kbytes mind you).? ?Two tapes?per TA11; one for the
> OS and the other the user.? ?We had a couple at CMU on 11/20's running
> RT-11 in the EE Digital lab for the RT system's course - in fact, the
> famous "110v non-maskable interrupt" occurred on one of those machines
>
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 3:14 PM Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com
> <mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com>> wrote:
>
> On 3/31/20 2:33 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
> > 32MB really was ginormous back in the day; our labs had RT on
> RK05's,
> > which held about 2.5MB.? Way more than a DECtape.
>
> ? When I started out, I had it on RL01s.? But I suspect you have a few
> years on me. ;)? That was quite a bit of space at the time.
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
>
> --
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA
>
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
11:14 p.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
exactly. You could use some COTS tapes if you carefully cut the case with
a box cutter to make the notch, which we as students got pretty good at.
IIRC Memorex worked best. You could not use the really cheap tape, but DEC
used saturation recording. The official DECcassettes and compatible from
the aftermarket sellers cost more than what you got at the music store in
Oakland.
On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 5:04 PM Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
He's talking about DECcassette, not DECtape. The DECcassette looks
like a standard Philips-style audio tape (of Walkman fame) but has a
notch in the top.
-Dave
On 3/31/20 5:01 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
Are you referring to DECtape II? That was a
cassette.
I was referring to the (nearly indestructible) earlier format: simply
called DECtape or DECtape I. It's the same media as LINCtape (a small
reel), but with a very different controller. These could store a little
over 70K (36 bit) words.
On 3/31/20 4:40 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
> Dave the TA11 (DEC proprietary Phillps Cassettes) were 150 ft long.
> I just looked in my 1976 Peripherals Handbook -- Tape capacity of
> 92,000 bytes (not kbytes mind you). Two tapes per TA11; one for the
> OS and the other the user. We had a couple at CMU on 11/20's running
> RT-11 in the EE Digital lab for the RT system's course - in fact, the
> famous "110v non-maskable interrupt" occurred on one of those machines
>
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 3:14 PM Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com
> <mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com>> wrote:
>
> On 3/31/20 2:33 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
> > 32MB really was ginormous back in the day; our labs had RT on
> RK05's,
> > which held about 2.5MB. Way more than a DECtape.
>
> When I started out, I had it on RL01s. But I suspect you have a
few
> years on me. ;) That was quite a bit of
space at the time.
>
> -Dave
>
> --
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA
>
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
11:16 p.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
How did you format the tape?? A TU55 DECtape could be formatted, but I
thought that the cassette tapes had to be bought preformated.
On 3/31/20 5:14 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
exactly.? ?You could use some COTS tapes if you
carefully cut the case
with a box cutter to make the notch, which we as students got pretty
good at. IIRC Memorex worked best.? You could not use the really cheap
tape, but DEC used saturation recording.? ?The official DECcassettes
and compatible from the aftermarket sellers cost more than what you
got at the music store in Oakland.
On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 5:04 PM Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com
<mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com>> wrote:
? He's talking about DECcassette, not DECtape.? The DECcassette looks
like a standard Philips-style audio tape (of Walkman fame) but has a
notch in the top.
? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
On 3/31/20 5:01 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
Are you referring to DECtape II?? That was a
cassette.
I was referring to the (nearly indestructible) earlier format:
simply
called DECtape or DECtape I.? It's the same
media as LINCtape (a
small
reel), but with a very different controller.?
These could store
a little
over 70K (36 bit) words.
On 3/31/20 4:40 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
> Dave the TA11 (DEC proprietary Phillps Cassettes) were 150 ft
long.
> ?I just looked in my 1976 Peripherals
Handbook -- Tape capacity of
> 92,000 bytes (not kbytes mind you).? ?Two tapes?per TA11; one
for the
> OS and the other the user.? ?We had a couple
at CMU on 11/20's
running
> RT-11 in the EE Digital lab for the RT
system's course - in
fact, the
> famous "110v non-maskable
interrupt" occurred on one of those
machines
>
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 3:14 PM Dave McGuire
<mcguire at neurotica.com
<mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com>
> <mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com
<mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com>>>
wrote:
>
>? ? ?On 3/31/20 2:33 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
>? ? ?> 32MB really was ginormous back in the day; our labs had RT on
>? ? ?RK05's,
>? ? ?> which held about 2.5MB.? Way more than a DECtape.
>
>? ? ?? When I started out, I had it on RL01s.? But I suspect you
have a
few
>? ? ?years on me. ;)? That was quite a bit of
space at the time.
>
>? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
>
>? ? ?--
>? ? ?Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
>? ? ?New Kensington, PA
>
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
11:25 p.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
On Mar 31, 2020, at 5:16 PM, Thomas DeBellis
<tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote:
How did you format the tape? A TU55 DECtape could be formatted, but I thought that the
cassette tapes had to be bought preformated.
You may be thinking TU58 here. Those are block-addressable like TU56, just slow and
unreliable.
TA11 is essentially a magtape on an audio casette medium. Just like 7 or 9-track tape,
there is no formatting, and you can only write sequentially. See the Handbook, it
describes it clearly enough.
paul
11:45 p.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
I've forgotten to be honest -- IIRC, no formatting was needed like a
traditional tape drive. But it is possible we may have had a program to
do the formatting and I've just forgotten it. I do remember that it was a
very simple, saturation scheme. We had a scope on the read electronics of
the TA11 and decoded it all. NRZ style, 8-bit bytes, no parity, fixed
blocks with a prefix and suffix - serial encoding (unlike a 7/9-track) -
which is why the capacity is so low. Again, I've forgotten, we had the
prints for the TA11 controller and its very possible the format info was in
there -- I really don't remember. It was just a stream of bits down the
tape, not serpentine like a QIC tape (which has a head that switches
'tracks' and writes a long stream turns the tape around and then switches
to the next head and writes it backward. I've forgotten if you got one to
two passes on TA11. Traditional Phillips tape could be flipped over (side
1 and 2). I don't remember if TA11's worked that way.
FWIW: Phil Karn (*a.k.a. *KA9Q) and I as lab partners, built an 8085 based
controller for our project for the RT course that could read/write them
using a standard cheap radio shack style music drive but with different
'tronics that we created for the read/write. Phil had built up his custom
S100 Z80 system (the machine he used to write the KA9Q TCP) and we
interfaced it that system. He took the drive with him when we graduated
(remember that 8" floppy drives in those days were still pretty expensive
for a student).
I don't remember much more than that to be honest. Our 8085 work was done
in C and Assembler on a UNIX box at Mellon Institute. My memory is that we
prototyped our cassette system was on a Multibus 8085 originally - one of
the distributed Front-End prototypes we had Mellon, which I had access. We
later moved it to Phil's machine after I made a custom PC board just for
the controller and the r/w amps.
Clem
On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 5:18 PM Thomas DeBellis <tommytimesharing at gmail.com>
wrote:
How did you format the tape? A TU55 DECtape could be
formatted, but I
thought that the cassette tapes had to be bought preformated.
On 3/31/20 5:14 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
exactly. You could use some COTS tapes if you carefully cut the case
with a box cutter to make the notch, which we as students got pretty good
at. IIRC Memorex worked best. You could not use the really cheap tape, but
DEC used saturation recording. The official DECcassettes and compatible
from the aftermarket sellers cost more than what you got at the music store
in Oakland.
On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 5:04 PM Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
wrote:
He's talking about DECcassette, not DECtape. The DECcassette looks
like a standard Philips-style audio tape (of Walkman fame) but has a
notch in the top.
-Dave
On 3/31/20 5:01 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
Are you referring to DECtape II? That was a
cassette.
I was referring to the (nearly indestructible) earlier format: simply
called DECtape or DECtape I. It's the same media as LINCtape (a small
reel), but with a very different controller. These could store a little
over 70K (36 bit) words.
On 3/31/20 4:40 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
> Dave the TA11 (DEC proprietary Phillps Cassettes) were 150 ft long.
> I just looked in my 1976 Peripherals Handbook -- Tape capacity of
> 92,000 bytes (not kbytes mind you). Two tapes per TA11; one for the
> OS and the other the user. We had a couple at CMU on 11/20's running
> RT-11 in the EE Digital lab for the RT system's course - in fact, the
> famous "110v non-maskable interrupt" occurred on one of those machines
>
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 3:14 PM Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com
> <mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com>> wrote:
>
> On 3/31/20 2:33 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
> > 32MB really was ginormous back in the day; our labs had RT on
> RK05's,
> > which held about 2.5MB. Way more than a DECtape.
>
> When I started out, I had it on RL01s. But I suspect you have a
few
> years on me. ;) That was quite a bit of
space at the time.
>
> -Dave
>
> --
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA
>
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
1 Apr
1 Apr
12:16 a.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:45 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
I've forgotten to be honest -- IIRC, no formatting
was needed like a traditional tape
drive.? ?But it is possible we may have had a?program to do the formatting and I've
just forgotten it. I do remember that it was a very simple, saturation scheme. We
had a scope on the read electronics of the TA11 and decoded it all.? ?NRZ style,
8-bit bytes, no parity, fixed blocks with a prefix and suffix - serial encoding (unlike
a 7/9-track) - which is why the capacity is so low.? Again, I've forgotten, we had
the prints for the TA11 controller and its very possible the format info was in
there -- I really don't remember.? ?It was just a stream of bits down the tape, not
serpentine like a QIC tape (which has a head that switches 'tracks' and writes a
long stream turns the tape around and then switches to the next head and
writes it backward.? ?I've forgotten if you got one to two passes on TA11.?
Traditional Phillips tape could be flipped over (side 1 and 2).? ?I don't remember
if TA11's worked that way.
From what you've described earlier about the
special notch in the cartridge, I
suspect that the notch only existed on one side
so you couldn't actually flip it...
- Mark
2 Apr
2 Apr
1:29 a.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
The notch was in the center on the top of the cartridge
Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite.
On Mar 31, 2020, at 6:16 PM, Mark Pizzolato <Mark
at infocomm.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:45 PM, Clem Cole
wrote:
I've forgotten to be honest -- IIRC, no formatting was needed like a traditional tape
drive. But it is possible we may have had a program to do the formatting and I've
just forgotten it. I do remember that it was a very simple, saturation scheme. We
had a scope on the read electronics of the TA11 and decoded it all. NRZ style,
8-bit bytes, no parity, fixed blocks with a prefix and suffix - serial encoding (unlike
a 7/9-track) - which is why the capacity is so low. Again, I've forgotten, we had
the prints for the TA11 controller and its very possible the format info was in
there -- I really don't remember. It was just a stream of bits down the tape, not
serpentine like a QIC tape (which has a head that switches 'tracks' and writes a
long stream turns the tape around and then switches to the next head and
writes it backward. I've forgotten if you got one to two passes on TA11.
Traditional Phillips tape could be flipped over (side 1 and 2). I don't remember
if TA11's worked that way.
From what you've described earlier about the special notch in the cartridge, I
suspect that the notch only existed on one side so you couldn't actually flip it...
- Mark
1 Apr
1 Apr
1:47 a.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
On Mar 31, 2020, at 5:45 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at
ccc.com> wrote:
I've forgotten to be honest -- IIRC, no formatting was needed like a traditional tape
drive. But it is possible we may have had a program to do the formatting and I've
just forgotten it. I do remember that it was a very simple, saturation scheme. We had a
scope on the read electronics of the TA11 and decoded it all. NRZ style, 8-bit bytes, no
parity, fixed blocks with a prefix and suffix - serial encoding (unlike a 7/9-track) -
which is why the capacity is so low.
Was it really RT-11? I don't remember that it had TA11 support, and given that
it's like a magtape, not block addressable, it's hard to see how it could be the
system device.
DEC had an early software package called CAPS-11. I know nothing about it other than the
name and the fact that it was there to support the TA-11.
paul
2:25 a.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
I have played around with Caps-11 on Simh and I never played around with
its innards but it's UI is very similar to DOS-11.
Ray
On Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 7:49 PM Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
On Mar 31, 2020, at 5:45 PM, Clem Cole <clemc
at ccc.com> wrote:
I've forgotten to be honest -- IIRC, no formatting was needed like a
traditional tape drive. But it is possible we may have had a program to
do the formatting and I've just forgotten it. I do remember that it was a
very simple, saturation scheme. We had a scope on the read electronics of
the TA11 and decoded it all. NRZ style, 8-bit bytes, no parity, fixed
blocks with a prefix and suffix - serial encoding (unlike a 7/9-track) -
which is why the capacity is so low.
Was it really RT-11? I don't remember that it had TA11 support, and given
that it's like a magtape, not block addressable, it's hard to see how it
could be the system device.
DEC had an early software package called CAPS-11. I know nothing about it
other than the name and the fact that it was there to support the TA-11.
paul
2:28 a.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
Was it really RT-11?
It was CAPS-11
http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/caps-11/DEC-11-OT
UGA-A-D_CAPS-11_Users_Guide_Oct73.pdf
There was a CAPS-8 as well.
FWIW, I have a TU60 drive on the shelf, but no controller for it.
Anybody got a TA11 (M7892 I believe) that they'd care to part with?
Bob
3 a.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
Caps-11 sounds possible. I?ve forgotten. For the small systems (11/20,
15, 05 and the numerous LSI-11s), we had all of CAPS-11, RT-11, DOS-11 and
RSX in those days on different machines for simple RT tasks. Although
once we started getting 11/40s, 45s and eventually 34s it became almost all
Unix and used dedicated micros for the RT portions.
On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 7:49 PM Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
On Mar 31, 2020, at 5:45 PM, Clem Cole <clemc
at ccc.com> wrote:
I've forgotten to be honest -- IIRC, no formatting was needed like a
traditional tape drive. But it is possible we may have had a program to
do the formatting and I've just forgotten it. I do remember that it was a
very simple, saturation scheme. We had a scope on the read electronics of
the TA11 and decoded it all. NRZ style, 8-bit bytes, no parity, fixed
blocks with a prefix and suffix - serial encoding (unlike a 7/9-track) -
which is why the capacity is so low.
Was it really RT-11? I don't remember that it had TA11 support, and given
that it's like a magtape, not block addressable, it's hard to see how it
could be the system device.
DEC had an early software package called CAPS-11. I know nothing about it
other than the name and the fact that it was there to support the TA-11.
paul
--
31 Mar
31 Mar
11:09 p.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
No, TA11. Different device entirely. Rather old, it's mentioned in the 1973
peripherals handbook. Unibus interface, unlike the TU58 which is connected via a UART.
paul
On Mar 31, 2020, at 5:01 PM, Thomas DeBellis
<tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote:
Are you referring to DECtape II? That was a cassette.
I was referring to the (nearly indestructible) earlier format: simply called DECtape or
DECtape I. It's the same media as LINCtape (a small reel), but with a very different
controller. These could store a little over 70K (36 bit) words.
On 3/31/20 4:40 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
> Dave the TA11 (DEC proprietary Phillps Cassettes) were 150 ft long. I just looked
in my 1976 Peripherals Handbook -- Tape capacity of 92,000 bytes (not kbytes mind you).
Two tapes per TA11; one for the OS and the other the user. We had a couple at CMU on
11/20's running RT-11 in the EE Digital lab for the RT system's course - in fact,
the famous "110v non-maskable interrupt" occurred on one of those machines
>
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 3:14 PM Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
> On 3/31/20 2:33 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
> > 32MB really was ginormous back in the day; our labs had RT on RK05's,
> > which held about 2.5MB. Way more than a DECtape.
>
> When I started out, I had it on RL01s. But I suspect you have a few
> years on me. ;) That was quite a bit of space at the time.
>
> -Dave
>
> --
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA
1 Apr
1 Apr
3:09 a.m.
New subject: RT-11 filesystems, was Re: DECnet-RT?
We have a TA11 drive set at LSSM, but we are still looking for a
controller.
-Dave
On 3/31/20 4:40 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
Dave the TA11 (DEC proprietary Phillps Cassettes) were
150 ft long.? ?I
just looked in my 1976 Peripherals Handbook -- Tape capacity of 92,000
bytes (not kbytes mind you).? ?Two tapes?per TA11; one for the OS and
the other the user.? ?We had a couple at CMU on 11/20's running RT-11 in
the EE Digital lab for the RT system's course - in fact, the famous
"110v non-maskable interrupt" occurred on one of those machines
On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 3:14 PM Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com
<mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com>> wrote:
On 3/31/20 2:33 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
32MB really was ginormous back in the day; our
labs had RT on RK05's,
which held about 2.5MB.? Way more than a DECtape.
? When I started out, I had it on RL01s.? But I suspect you have a few
years on me. ;)? That was quite a bit of space at the time.
? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
31 Mar
31 Mar
5:11 p.m.
If you have that CD hooked up to a (simulated) PDP-11 running RT-11, I
could imagine that we are talking about the RT-11 partitioning of large
MSCP drives.
Johnny
On 2020-03-31 13:25, Peter Allan wrote:
Thanks to Ray, I now have the v1 and v5 of the RT-11
CD (well, the ISO
file of it). However, I am confused by the nature of the virtual CD.
I have extracted the file RTV5RL.03 and started an installation using
it. I have not continued with the installation, but it looks like it
should work.So far,so good.
However, the file README.1st refers to there being several RT11
partitions?on the CD and that? some of these are bootable. I have never
come across multiple partitions on a CD and I don't know how to access
them. The SIMH ATTACH command appears to only connect to files, not
partitions on a disk.
So I am stuck. Any suggestions?
Peter Allan
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 at 19:05, Ray Jewhurst <raywjewhurst at gmail.com
<mailto:raywjewhurst at gmail.com>> wrote:
rsts.org <http://rsts.org> has the RT-11 CD in its archive and v5 of
the CD has 5.7.
On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 11:58 AM Peter Allan <petermallan at gmail.com
<mailto:petermallan at gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Bob,
I have a similar thought. Is RT-11 V5.7 available on the
internet somewhere? I recall discussions about this some time
ago, but I forget the outcome.
Cheers
Peter Allan
On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 at 23:15, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com
<mailto:bob at jfcl.com>> wrote:
? Still looking for things to do at home here, so I?ve set
up another PDP-11 with RT11 this time.? I have v5.7 up and
running just fine, but I?d really like to network it and I
can?t find a copy of DECnet-RT anywhere.? Can someone send
me a pointer?____
__ __
? BTW, was DECnet-RT ever upgraded to Phase IV or did it
stop with III?____
__ __
? Yes, I know there?s a TCP/IP for RT11.? I might actually
end up using that instead, but I?d prefer to have it on
HECnet if I can.____
__ __
Thanks,____
Bob____
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
7:22 p.m.
This is RT-11 Partitioning, but if I remember correctly it?s even fancier than that. The
data in the disk images is accessible from RT-11 as RT-11 partitions, and from a modern
computer as disk images on an ISO-9660 CD. The person that put these together is a very
*LONGTIME* RT-11 person.
Zane
On Mar 31, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
If you have that CD hooked up to a (simulated) PDP-11 running RT-11, I could imagine that
we are talking about the RT-11 partitioning of large MSCP drives.
Johnny
8:09 p.m.
I took the zip container and extracted all the virtual disks. I
mounted the RTV5RL.xx as a RL01 disk under SimH without issue.The .07
disk will boot into RT11AI.SYS and allow you to configure your new
system or use the default (distributed) one. If you wish to build new,
then you will have to create a DU-type device because it looks for one
of those to build on.
Turned out to be quite simple and so much faster than any physical
system I remember booting RT11 on in the past!
-Steve(former RT-11 developer)
On Tue, 2020-03-31 at 10:22 -0700, Zane Healy wrote:
This is RT-11 Partitioning, but if I remember
correctly it?s even
fancier than that. The data in the disk images is accessible from
RT-11 as RT-11 partitions, and from a modern computer as disk images
on an ISO-9660 CD. The person that put these together is a very
*LONGTIME* RT-11 person.
Zane
> On Mar 31, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se>
> wrote:
>
> If you have that CD hooked up to a (simulated) PDP-11 running RT-
> 11, I could imagine that we are talking about the RT-11
> partitioning of large MSCP drives.
>
> Johnny
8:22 p.m.
I'll send it to you shortly...
-Steve
On Tue, 2020-03-31 at 11:17 -0700, Robert Armstrong wrote:
The .07 disk
will boot into RT11AI.SYS and allow you to configure
your new system ?
Is there some kind of directory or README that lists (in general
terms) all the stuff that?s on this CD?
Bob
1496
days inactive
1502
days old
52 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
bob＠jfcl.com -
bqt＠softjar.se -
cguldenschuh＠gmail.com -
clemc＠ccc.com -
form＠pdp-11.online -
gregg.drwho8＠gmail.com -
healyzh＠avanthar.com -
Mark＠infocomm.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
pechter＠gmail.com -
petermallan＠gmail.com -
raywjewhurst＠gmail.com -
steve＠davidson.net -
tommytimesharing＠gmail.com