12 Apr
2019
12 Apr
'19
1:16 a.m.
A GRE tunnel up from 31.1023 to 23.1023; area 23 nodes are reachable through it, but
23.1023 does not show up in the known nodes list of another router (31.1, openvms 7.3) in
the same local network. Both 31.1 and 31.1023 are L2; and 31.1 is connected to MIM via
MULTINET. 23.1023 does not show as known to MIM either. But MIM and 31.1 do know about
area 23 nodes piglet, owl, rabbit etc.
How is 23.1023 going stealth?
---------
|31.1 |
|IMPVAX |---Multinet/TCP---HECnet
---------
|
|
-----------------
| Bunch of |
| Area 31 nodes |
-----------------
|
|
---------
|31.1023|
|IMPRTR |---GRE Tunnels to other areas
---------
Tunnel from 31.1023 to 23.1023:
Area Cost Hops Next Hop to Node Expires Prio
*23 4 1 Tunnel23 -> 23.1023 42 64 A+
12 Apr
12 Apr
1:25 a.m.
23.1023 just don't have a name. So it's not a known node.
Johnny
On 2019-04-12 01:16, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
A GRE tunnel up from 31.1023 to 23.1023; area 23 nodes
are reachable through it, but 23.1023 does not show up in the known nodes list of another
router (31.1, openvms 7.3) in the same local network. Both 31.1 and 31.1023 are L2; and
31.1 is connected to MIM via MULTINET. 23.1023 does not show as known to MIM either. But
MIM and 31.1 do know about area 23 nodes piglet, owl, rabbit etc.
How is 23.1023 going stealth?
---------
|31.1 |
|IMPVAX |---Multinet/TCP---HECnet
---------
|
|
-----------------
| Bunch of |
| Area 31 nodes |
-----------------
|
|
---------
|31.1023|
|IMPRTR |---GRE Tunnels to other areas
---------
Tunnel from 31.1023 to 23.1023:
Area Cost Hops Next Hop to Node Expires Prio
*23 4 1 Tunnel23 -> 23.1023 42 64 A+
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
1:28 a.m.
Johnny - if I remember right, I have seen nodes with no names show up at
http://mim.update.uu.se/hecnet without names in brackets, for my nodes when I haven?t told
you to add them yet, or others too. no?
On Apr 11, 2019, at 7:25 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
23.1023 just don't have a name. So it's not a known node.
Johnny
On 2019-04-12 01:16, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
A GRE tunnel up from 31.1023 to 23.1023; area 23 nodes are reachable through it, but
23.1023 does not show up in the known nodes list of another router (31.1, openvms 7.3) in
the same local network. Both 31.1 and 31.1023 are L2; and 31.1 is connected to MIM via
MULTINET. 23.1023 does not show as known to MIM either. But MIM and 31.1 do know about
area 23 nodes piglet, owl, rabbit etc.
How is 23.1023 going stealth?
---------
|31.1 |
|IMPVAX |---Multinet/TCP---HECnet
---------
|
|
-----------------
| Bunch of |
| Area 31 nodes |
-----------------
|
|
---------
|31.1023|
|IMPRTR |---GRE Tunnels to other areas
---------
Tunnel from 31.1023 to 23.1023:
Area Cost Hops Next Hop to Node Expires Prio
*23 4 1 Tunnel23 -> 23.1023 42 64 A+
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
1:45 a.m.
On 2019-04-12 01:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
Johnny - if I remember right, I have seen nodes with
no names show up at
http://mim.update.uu.se/hecnet?without names in brackets, for my nodes
when I haven?t told you to add them yet, or others too. no?
"Known nodes" is a tricky thing. It might also be different for
different OSes.
In RSX, when you request known nodes, you get the ones which have a
name, and the ones for which there are counters registered.
So, yes, under some circumstances, you will also see nodes without
names. But it will have to be nodes that have directly communicated with
Mim, in this case. So if 23.1023 were to communicate with Mim itself
(not routing for someone else), then it would then pop up in the known
nodes list.
Johnny
On Apr 11, 2019, at 7:25 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se
<mailto:bqt at softjar.se>> wrote:
> 23.1023 just don't have a name. So it's not a known node.
>
> ?Johnny
>
> On 2019-04-12 01:16, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
>> A GRE tunnel up from 31.1023 to 23.1023; area 23 nodes are reachable
>> through it, but 23.1023 does not show up in the known nodes list of
>> another router (31.1, openvms 7.3) in the same local network. Both
>> 31.1 and 31.1023 are L2; and 31.1 is connected to MIM via MULTINET.
>> 23.1023 does not show as known to MIM either. But MIM and 31.1 do
>> know about area 23 nodes ?piglet, owl, rabbit etc.
>> How is 23.1023 going stealth?
>> ??????---------
>> ??????|31.1 ??|
>> ??????|IMPVAX |---Multinet/TCP---HECnet
>> ??????---------
>> ??????????|
>> ??????????|
>> ???-----------------
>> ???| Bunch of ?????|
>> ???| Area 31 nodes |
>> ???-----------------
>> ??????????|
>> ??????????|
>> ??????---------
>> ??????|31.1023|
>> ??????|IMPRTR |---GRE Tunnels to other areas
>> ??????---------
>> Tunnel from 31.1023 to 23.1023:
>> Area ??????Cost ?Hops ??????????Next Hop to Node ??????Expires ?Prio
>> *23 ???????????4 ????1 ???????????Tunnel23 -> 23.1023 ??????42 ????64 ?A+
>
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist ?????????????????|| "I'm on a bus
> ?????????????????????????????????|| ?on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se <mailto:bqt at softjar.se> ????????????|| ?Reading
> murder books
> pdp is alive! ????????????????????|| ?tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
1:48 a.m.
On 2019-04-12 01:45, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2019-04-12 01:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
Oh yeah. One more: Nodes that are in the same area will be shown, even
if they don't have a name, if they are online.
Johnny
Johnny - if I remember right, I have seen nodes
with no names show up
at http://mim.update.uu.se/hecnet?without names in brackets, for my
nodes when I haven?t told you to add them yet, or others too. no?
"Known nodes" is a tricky thing. It might also be different for
different OSes.
In RSX, when you request known nodes, you get the ones which have a
name, and the ones for which there are counters registered.
So, yes, under some circumstances, you will also see nodes without
names. But it will have to be nodes that have directly communicated with
Mim, in this case. So if 23.1023 were to communicate with Mim itself
(not routing for someone else), then it would then pop up in the known
nodes list.
? Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Apr 11, 2019, at 7:25 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se
<mailto:bqt at softjar.se>> wrote:
> 23.1023 just don't have a name. So it's not a known node.
>
> ?Johnny
>
> On 2019-04-12 01:16, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
>> A GRE tunnel up from 31.1023 to 23.1023; area 23 nodes are reachable
>> through it, but 23.1023 does not show up in the known nodes list of
>> another router (31.1, openvms 7.3) in the same local network. Both
>> 31.1 and 31.1023 are L2; and 31.1 is connected to MIM via MULTINET.
>> 23.1023 does not show as known to MIM either. But MIM and 31.1 do
>> know about area 23 nodes ?piglet, owl, rabbit etc.
>> How is 23.1023 going stealth?
>> ??????---------
>> ??????|31.1 ??|
>> ??????|IMPVAX |---Multinet/TCP---HECnet
>> ??????---------
>> ??????????|
>> ??????????|
>> ???-----------------
>> ???| Bunch of ?????|
>> ???| Area 31 nodes |
>> ???-----------------
>> ??????????|
>> ??????????|
>> ??????---------
>> ??????|31.1023|
>> ??????|IMPRTR |---GRE Tunnels to other areas
>> ??????---------
>> Tunnel from 31.1023 to 23.1023:
>> Area ??????Cost ?Hops ??????????Next Hop to Node ??????Expires ?Prio
>> *23 ???????????4 ????1 ???????????Tunnel23 -> 23.1023 ??????42
>> ????64 ?A+
>
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist ?????????????????|| "I'm on a bus
> ?????????????????????????????????|| ?on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se <mailto:bqt at softjar.se> ????????????|| ?Reading
> murder books
> pdp is alive! ????????????????????|| ?tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
1:51 a.m.
Ah ok. So it?s not a blind dump of routing tables received from other routers, but actual
traffic generators, and defined node names.
Thanks.
On Apr 11, 2019, at 7:45 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2019-04-12 01:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
Johnny - if I remember right, I have seen nodes with no names show up at
http://mim.update.uu.se/hecnet without names in brackets, for my nodes when I haven?t told
you to add them yet, or others too. no?
"Known nodes" is a tricky thing. It might also be different for different
OSes.
In RSX, when you request known nodes, you get the ones which have a name, and the ones
for which there are counters registered.
So, yes, under some circumstances, you will also see nodes without names. But it will
have to be nodes that have directly communicated with Mim, in this case. So if 23.1023
were to communicate with Mim itself (not routing for someone else), then it would then pop
up in the known nodes list.
Johnny
> On Apr 11, 2019, at 7:25 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at softjar.se <mailto:bqt at softjar.se>> wrote:
> 23.1023 just don't have a name. So it's not a known node.
>
> Johnny
>
>> On 2019-04-12 01:16, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
>> A GRE tunnel up from 31.1023 to 23.1023; area 23 nodes are reachable through it,
but 23.1023 does not show up in the known nodes list of another router (31.1, openvms 7.3)
in the same local network. Both 31.1 and 31.1023 are L2; and 31.1 is connected to MIM via
MULTINET. 23.1023 does not show as known to MIM either. But MIM and 31.1 do know about
area 23 nodes piglet, owl, rabbit etc.
>> How is 23.1023 going stealth?
>> ---------
>> |31.1 |
>> |IMPVAX |---Multinet/TCP---HECnet
>> ---------
>> |
>> |
>> -----------------
>> | Bunch of |
>> | Area 31 nodes |
>> -----------------
>> |
>> |
>> ---------
>> |31.1023|
>> |IMPRTR |---GRE Tunnels to other areas
>> ---------
>> Tunnel from 31.1023 to 23.1023:
>> Area Cost Hops Next Hop to Node Expires Prio
>> *23 4 1 Tunnel23 -> 23.1023 42 64 A+
>
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
> || on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se <mailto:bqt at softjar.se> || Reading
murder books
> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol 
2:02 a.m.
On Apr 11, 2019, at 7:45 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2019-04-12 01:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
It might be but it should not be. The DECnet architecture specifies precisely what the
term means.
Start with "active nodes": that means every node known to be reachable.
Given that, "known nodes" is defined as the union of active nodes and named
nodes. So a nameless node is known if it is shown as reachable by routing data (or by
having an active adjacency), but not otherwise.
paul
Johnny - if I remember right, I have seen nodes
with no names show up at http://mim.update.uu.se/hecnet without names in brackets, for my
nodes when I haven?t told you to add them yet, or others too. no?
"Known nodes" is a tricky thing. It might also be different for different OSes.
2:17 a.m.
On 2019-04-12 02:02, Paul Koning wrote:
Well, that is obviously not what RSX shows...
And I doubt any system do. Because a node can never have any ideas what
nodes are reachable in other areas. Which is exactly the thing about
23.1023.
But I guess you could claim that 23.1023 is not *known* to be reachable.
But RSX also show node that are known not to be reachable, and without
names, if they have counters associated. Just tested that with Mim.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Apr 11, 2019, at 7:45 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2019-04-12 01:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
It might be but it should not be. The DECnet architecture specifies precisely what the
term means.
Start with "active nodes": that means every node known to be reachable.
Given that, "known nodes" is defined as the union of active nodes and named
nodes. So a nameless node is known if it is shown as reachable by routing data (or by
having an active adjacency), but not otherwise. Johnny - if I remember right, I have seen nodes
with no names show up at http://mim.update.uu.se/hecnet without names in brackets, for my
nodes when I haven?t told you to add them yet, or others too. no?
"Known nodes" is a tricky thing. It might also be different for different OSes.
2:19 a.m.
On 2019-04-12 02:17, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2019-04-12 02:02, Paul Koning wrote:
Well, that is obviously not what RSX shows...
And I doubt any system do. Because a node can never have any ideas what
nodes are reachable in other areas. Which is exactly the thing about
23.1023.
But I guess you could claim that 23.1023 is not *known* to be reachable.
But RSX also show node that are known not to be reachable, and without
names, if they have counters associated. Just tested that with Mim.
D'oh. Sorry. I managed to confuse myself.
Known nodes does not show a node that have no name and is known to not
be reachable.
I guess your description of known nodes does match what RSX does, Paul.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Apr 11, 2019, at 7:45 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2019-04-12 01:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
It might be but it should not be.? The DECnet architecture specifies
precisely what the term means.
Start with "active nodes": that means every node known to be reachable.
Given that, "known nodes" is defined as the union of active nodes and
named nodes.? So a nameless node is known if it is shown as reachable
by routing data (or by having an active adjacency), but not otherwise. Johnny - if I remember right, I have seen nodes
with no names show
up at http://mim.update.uu.se/hecnet without names in brackets, for
my nodes when I haven?t told you to add them yet, or others too. no?
"Known nodes" is a tricky thing. It might also be different for
different OSes.
2:22 a.m.
On 2019-04-12 02:19, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2019-04-12 02:17, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Ah... Bloody hell. I double confused myself. RSX do show nodes without a
name, and which are known to be unreachable, when you request known nodes.
My confused postings happened because when you do a output to a file
from NCP in RSX, the output actually gets appended to a file, and does
not create a new file, and I accidentally directed output to already
existing files that had been done earlier with similar commands, so I
was actually looking at old outputs... :-/
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On 2019-04-12 02:02, Paul Koning wrote:
Well, that is obviously not what RSX shows...
And I doubt any system do. Because a node can never have any ideas
what nodes are reachable in other areas. Which is exactly the thing
about 23.1023.
But I guess you could claim that 23.1023 is not *known* to be reachable.
But RSX also show node that are known not to be reachable, and without
names, if they have counters associated. Just tested that with Mim.
D'oh. Sorry. I managed to confuse myself.
Known nodes does not show a node that have no name and is known to not
be reachable.
I guess your description of known nodes does match what RSX does, Paul. On Apr 11, 2019, at 7:45 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2019-04-12 01:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
> Johnny - if I remember right, I have seen nodes with no names show
> up at http://mim.update.uu.se/hecnet without names in brackets, for
> my nodes when I haven?t told you to add them yet, or others too. no?
"Known nodes" is a tricky thing. It might also be different for
different OSes.
It might be but it should not be.? The DECnet architecture specifies
precisely what the term means.
Start with "active nodes": that means every node known to be reachable.
Given that, "known nodes" is defined as the union of active nodes and
named nodes.? So a nameless node is known if it is shown as reachable
by routing data (or by having an active adjacency), but not otherwise.
2:39 a.m.
On Apr 11, 2019, at 8:17 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2019-04-12 02:02, Paul Koning wrote:
Well, that is obviously not what RSX shows...
And I doubt any system do. Because a node can never have any ideas what nodes are
reachable in other areas. Which is exactly the thing about 23.1023.
But I guess you could claim that 23.1023 is not *known* to be reachable.
Correct, you don't know the topology of other areas.
Here's what the DECnet spec (netman40, the Phase IV network management spec) says.
Node group identifications are as follows:
ACTIVE NODES For a nonrouting node, all nodes that the
executor sees on the other end of a logical
link, or as adjacent, or as designated router.
For an intra-area routing node, all of the
above plus all nodes that the executor
perceives as reachable within its area. For an
inter-area router, all of the above plus all
nodes the executor sees as adjacent inter-area
routers.
ADJACENT NODES All nodes that the executor perceives Routing
can reach and that are physically adjacent
(i.e. separated from the executor by a single
circuit). Each occurrence of a node on a
different circuit appears as a separate
adjacent node. In other words, the adjacency
of a node is qualified by the circuit on which
it is adjacent.
KNOWN NODES As defined for ACTIVE NODES, plus all nodes
that have a name, including names that map to a
Network Management as Seen by the User
circuit (i.e., loop nodes).
LOOP NODES All nodes that are associated with a circuit
for loop testing purposes.
SIGNIFICANT NODES All nodes that have significant information
associated with them for display purposes.
paul
On Apr
11, 2019, at 7:45 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2019-04-12 01:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
It might be but it should not be. The DECnet architecture specifies precisely what
the term means.
Start with "active nodes": that means every node known to be reachable.
Given that, "known nodes" is defined as the union of active nodes and named
nodes. So a nameless node is known if it is shown as reachable by routing data (or by
having an active adjacency), but not otherwise. Johnny - if I remember right, I have seen nodes
with no names show up at http://mim.update.uu.se/hecnet without names in brackets, for my
nodes when I haven?t told you to add them yet, or others too. no?
"Known nodes" is a tricky thing. It might also be different for different OSes.
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